• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Victory is My Destiny - MK Video and Critique Thread

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
Am i playing the matchup correctly? hopefully dojo critques or anti. diddy slayers lol
Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti Dojo anti dojo anti

name search GO
 

Jem.

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
4,242
Location
Marysville, Washington
I watched the whole video (22 minutes) you were playing pretty good for the most part to be honest. I felt at times his reads were pretty good, and then he'd miss a bunch of things, and I'm not whether to credit that to you or a downfall for him. I didn't see any glaringly bad habits you had vs him, you did struggle on some edgeguards. Currently i feel like reverse up b'ing diddy's barrels if he's at semi low percent if you time it right is a good edgeguard right now. you risk SD'ing, but if just fall with him until he lets go, he has to try eventually.

I also felt your grab game was a bit lacking. Grab is really good vs diddy. Grab to dash attack, grab to regrab, grab to uair, grab to nado. (all depending on DI obviously) are very good options vs diddy

We didn't get to see much stage variation, battlefield once then smashville x4. Not too big of deal though.

There were some points when he'd be hitting you with monkey kick and fair a lot, so watch out for that. diddy's do that a lot now, like snakes using aerials to help recover people who chase.

Overall you were playing really good, but felt like you also randomely dropped your good spacing and got a little sloppy. So just keep up the intensity and keep a look out for grabs.
 

.i/p.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
63
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Eh... You consistently missed punishes by waiting too long, you ran right into **** from him... It's less a "pika mu" thing and more a "how2punish" thing. :( Also, watch your powershielding-being able to consistently powershield is very useful.
 

.i/p.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
63

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
@bpc game 1 you ran into WAAAY too much of his ****, stop that. learn how to be wary of c4

you should use more walk vs snake, snake punishes dash from MK too well

learn how to use nado vs snake. if you nado high and they're already blocking cause they wanna cook a nade, the nado doesn't blow it up. it discourages them from cooking nades because if you keep up nado pressure on their shield and they're holding a nade it'll chip their shield a lot. kind of risky though, alternative is to just use evasive measures.

YI is terrible to start on vs Snake, I'd argue that SV is a better choice lol...platform limits your range of movement too hard

other nado tactics include using nado as they're fairly close to the ground as a 50/50 (they either react fast enough w/ a nade pull or they get hit by it). useful because if they get used to pulling nades on the way down you get to pressure w/ grab by simply standing facing their back as they're landing and waiting for either spotdodge/roll or nothing at all

try to get more grabs on snake, it's the main method that you're gonna be using to get them in the air
 

Jem.

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
4,242
Location
Marysville, Washington
BPC - A lot of little mistakes. Playing with a grenade killed you, falling c4 hit you about 5-6 times (Sometimes into bair) but a lot of the time it killed. A falling nair on the last hit killed you. You tried way too many forward smashes, and you missed 2 opportunities at the end of game 2 to win the match (when the stage was changing and he was low, he cyphered and you should have dropped down and up b'd him. maybe you were nervous, I'm not sure) the other time, you fsmashed instead of dsmashed out of shield. If you want to nado, make them high nados, not low ones. Just overall, you seemed to play a little too reckless, and ignored the explosives and got hit by them which is a bad thing. You should never get hit by falling c4, just walk away or shield if you're that concerned about it. You had good momentum a few times, but just had a silly mistake end it.

Remember if snake is above you on a platform, you can do well spaced low uairs on his shield into nado (don't rise with him though in this scenario, just get to him) he'll pop up.
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
4,503
Location
Dexters Laboratory
Jem Orion Anti Dojo Jem Orion Anti Dojo Jem Orion Anti Dojo Jem Orion Anti Dojo
remove the useless moves out of your playstyle

you are definitely a LOT more comfortable playing than the last vids i looked at but look at yourself

you will pick options or do moves that while you could say your just "spacing" you arent really doing anything because your op is like 93425803285 miles away and you let him get away with dumb moves.

this is why you drop most if not all of your gimp/juggle opportunities
( fsmash-.-)

sometimes the threat of a move is more important than actually using it

edit:

stop playing ddd you multiple times thought you had his grab range >_>

also, stop getting hit by c4
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Yeah, the C4 was a little depressing. I ran into two snakes in bracket, one right after the other, and damn. :( Thanks for the feedback guys... I gotta work on my move choices and spacing more against snake. Gotcha.
 

Player-4

See you in 25 years
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
5,582
Location
Campgrounds, TX
I just watched the first game, and from what I gathered from it, you're very aggressive lol. Wait for him to make some mistakes and attack first then counter him back with something of your own. When you had him on plats and you were under him you didn't pressure his shield enough, all your moves were too fast. You can float under his shield doing Uairs and mix in a Nair or two and there's nothing he can do, and something will poke his feet eventually or just Shuttle or Nado him from below once his shield is low. Also he Up-B'd your Tornadoes a lot, bait his Dolphin Slash and come back in with your Nado
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
Joe, when you get grabs near the edge, throw him off stage, not toward the middle. You can rack up a **** load of damage off stage.

I never really saw you use cape to recover. Your first stock you died because you SLed into Coney's dtilt. 2nd stock same thing. If you cape, you will either grab the ledge, or land on stage right next to the ledge. The only time you should land on stage is if you know he will grab the ledge. Even if he does this, you're safe almost always because cape has really little landing lag and you can shield before he tries to fair you or something.

2:03 if DDD recovers like that just grab him and spam pummels. He'll release and you can repeat this over and over and over again until you screw up/he luckily mashes out with an air release.
And don't pummel as soon as you grab or he'll instantly break out for some reason and grab the ledge. Wait like .5 seconds or something. looks like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMIBIq3db1E 1:05

3:14 I would have Shuttle Looped there.. then again I guess it was kinda stale so it might not have killed him. I guess nair maybe.

Also don't SD with nado you prolly woulda won if you didn't SD

5:21 You hit him with the weak part of GSL that can sometimes go into an uptilt if you cancel the GSL perfectly. It might have killed coney there not 100% sure. just an option/gimick to have in mind. I see M2K do this
 

theunabletable

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
1,796
Location
SoCal
You give up stage control so easily, Seagull :/

At the beginning of the first match, you like just stood there. There's no reason to not just walk forward (unless you're sure he has an approach habit you can punish with a cross-up giving you stagecontrol, or a backthrow or something, but that's pretty deep ****. And if you're reading someone at the beginning that hard, you probably don't need my advice lol). The less stage D3 has, the better you're off. Especially since him being offstage means a ****load of damage if you do it right.

Pressure D3 a lot, and when you get a hit, followup with tons of damage.

And you dash EVERYWHERE. Like even at the neutral position you're just giving up options by dashing around. You're much harder to predict, and much more dangerous while walking. When you get a grab, your grabs do pretty similar damage each, Dthrow only doing a tiny bit more damage than Bthrow. Use the one that gives you the best positional advantage. Against D3 that's generally the one that will get him closest to off stage; because he has like NO options while off stage if you play safe.

And you get a bit aggressive sometimes with your juggles, I think. Like overly so, going too high, too early, and giving him a chance of air dodging past you. Just space yourself so that you're in the spot where your uair will hit, but his dair won't, and try and gravitate yourself towards the center of the stage, pressuring him to DI away from the center. If you're more in the center, then you'll likely have a good positional advantage for a while. If he DIs into you, he'll probably get uair'd away, if he DIs away he's in a ****ing HORRIBLE position. D3 is slower than you in the air, so you can chase him kinda. Be patient and safe with your gimps. he needs to get off that ledge sometime, so no need try and force him off. You can cover his ledge options really safely. I don't know how slow his getup attack is, but I know that, for instance, MKs ledge attack (like in the ditto) is definitely slower than reaction time, and I can powershield it on reaction EVERY SINGLE TIME. Compare that frame data to your own reaction time and see what options you can for sure prevent on reaction (I'd say take your reaction time, and add like 2 or 3 frames to it to see what you can consistently stop).

Get him off stage, and keep him off stage. Juggle him hard, but be patient with your juggles. Don't run yourself out of jumps, or give him an easy opportunity to air dodge past you.

To be fair, I only saw like the first 2 and a half minutes of the first match because that's all I can load right now due to bandwidth limits I get, lol. So you may have corrected yourself on some of this later, but this is stuff that I noticed would've definitely helped you in that match, and if you did correct on it, you atleast need to get more consistent at it.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
Hey table, can you explain to me a bit more about stage control? I'd like to learn about it. =)
 

theunabletable

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
1,796
Location
SoCal
It's pretty simple, really. You probably already know most of it, I just think it's really important in some matchups (it helps a lot in the ditto, and D3 from what experience I have against both characters, but tbh I don't have much experience vs most characters anyways). Easy example would be in the D3 matchup.

Say that D3 is in the middle of FD vs MK. MKs back is to the ledge. D3 can literally go WHEREVER the **** he wants, and be defensive, and retreat a lot. MK loses his ability to simply walk around, retreat, etc or else he'll go off stage. MK really isn't that good offstage when his opponent is on stage because his options are still limited a lot, and he's far more predictable. MK is only good on the ledge when he doesn't need to get back onto the stage lol (IE planking or scrooging).

If you want to take the safe option and retreat, you're now off stage. You now, because of your low mobility, have no good way to crossup to get back stage control, and your options are limited to like all aerial stuff. Your getup attack, which has the most range on the ledge, is slower than reaction (by slower than reaction, I mean it's slower than reaction in the practical sense. I have a slow *** reaction time, and it's like 3 or 4 frames slow than that. It is DEFINITELY shieldable on reaction). You just don't have very many options, and he has like every option available to his character, and mostly all of it is safe if he stays at a good position. Your ways of getting back onto the stage are risky, and don't have much reward at all apart from no longer having **** for options (which is a good reward and all, but... well you know, it's just not as much potential reward as MK usually has from every other position in this matchup).

So basically, when your back is close to the ledge, your risk:reward changes a lot. Suddenly you have less options, your opponent has more, and the risk for getting hit is higher because if you get hit you suddenly have WAY ****tier options.

Stage control is also based on what direction your opponent is face and stuff like that. Like if your opponent has the center of the stage, but is close to you and is facing away, and doesn't really have many options for hitting you (say they're in shield), you probably have a slight position advantage; because he's limited in what he can do to you. But generally, being closer to the center of the stage is better.

Now see what it's like when you're in the center of the stage, and D3 has his back to the ledge. What risks are there for the D3 if you get a hit? He's offstage against METAKNIGHT, with a recovery that gets gimped REALLY hard, and ledge options that aren't safe, nor very reliable (that's not to say that I'm theorycrafting that D3 can't get back onto the stage or anything like that, his options for doing so in that position are just REALLY ****ty, and a lot of them can be covered on reaction).

If D3 gets a hit, either he has MK off stage, at a high angle (from landing a Bthrow), which isn't THAT bad of a position for MK. At a high angle he can get back pretty easily through gliding, dair camping, tornado, or if you're not playing on FD (and you probably won't play on FD in a super srs tourney match, but playing on exclusively FD for a while helped my stage control a lot, and learning my options from the neutral position, and makes it easier to present an example), land on a platform where you're, again, not in TOO bad of a position (a disadvantaged position if you're supposed to be on the offensive, but seriously not that bad). Or he'll hit MK with something that knocks him forward towards the center of the stage again, and all MK loses is some percentage, and the position being reset to mostly neutral (depending on a ton of factors like percentage, but still mostly neutral if you get hit by most of D3s moveset at the position mentioned earlier).

So we know that the risk:reward ratio is very much in your favor when you have the center of the stage, since most of your attacks put him in a like the worst position in the game.

But also note that D3 has less options when his back is to the ledge, and it becomes easier to bait stuff when their back is to the ledge. Mango in Melee is a ****ing genius at this. I mean he generally just reads people when they roll, but a lot of people roll specifically in this position. Any of you watch Mango vs Shroomed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSBa-tSv7ts

But it's not just rolls, people get really predictable when they're pressured because it's a really uncomfortable feeling to lose a lot of options. D3 CANNOT retreat when he's in that position, which is usually one of the safest options in the game, whereas you can (hell you see Mango do it in that video (make sure you listen to it with sound on), when he's waiting for Shroomed's roll, and he doesn't roll, so Mango just resorts to getting to a safer, but still advantaged position).

Melee and Brawl are really different games, and stage control kinda seems to work different in Melee, due to the completely different risk:reward scenarios from the more powerful gimping, increased movement options and all that. But that match is still a really good match to watch.

And they are closer to the blast zone than usual so they die earlier.

They have less options, you gain more options, they become easier to bait, you can be less predictable (due to your increased options), you reward for landing a hit (especially a grab) becomes HUGE, your risk for getting hit becomes smaller because you'll likely still retain all of the above bonuses if you're hit from this position at a low percent.

It's just REALLY helpful, and it's easy to do, and something that you can begin to do without using focus if you practice enough. And from my experience, people who don't get stage control all that well are REALLY easy to bait and punish because they don't even realize when they're being pressured, often, or that their opponent is waiting to see what habits they have when under pressure.

Ledge pressure is also REALLY helpful. The better your ledge pressure and stage control are, the better your followup game is. Followups aren't necessarily about getting like 10 straight hits, but also about getting hits that put you in a far better position than your opponent so that you'll likely continue hitting him. And followup game is obviously very helpful.

And knowing when to chase your opponent offstage, and when to just wait for them onstage (staying on the ledge while they're off stage is a good way to keep both the chasing after the opponent option, and the retreating onto the stage option open at the same time, imo).

Although I'm bad so I could be completely wrong on all of this, just my opinions on stage control :p
 

Staco

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
2,173
Location
Germany
Yeah, I allready worked on the plate mistake. (hes standing on a platform, why would I jump above him, so that he can punish? D:)
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
Even if he did lose to Jebus, I don't really think that takes away his credibility as a person who understands the game. I think he knows what he is talking about it.

Anyways, thanks Table. That was a good read.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
..?
Okay, then explain to me what stage control is cus apparently table is wrong.
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
4,503
Location
Dexters Laboratory
you can sdi kirbys fair and uair -> bull**** him for it after fthrow

probably shouldnt tell people that but tbh, the next time i play a kirby will probably be never, and they will still go for it since everyone is to lazy to learn to do that kind of stuff

i never really tested nair although that would be pretty awesome >.<

tbh i never really tested it. i just kinda did the same **** i do to marths nair and it worked and i assume that people correctly fthrow-> fair since its the easiest thing to do ever
 
Top Bottom