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Why the smash 4 balance team need to standardize a whole value that can cause huge balance problems in a +50 cast, is like reversing all the work they have do it, is simply not worthy when only a small portion of the cast suffers problems becuase how jumps and grabs work.
ZSS and her sexy 5 frame start up of SHAD~
Sounds fun to me. I was all for everybody having 5 frame jumpsquats, but now that I see how many are frame 4, I say buff everybody to frame 4, and let the chaos begin~
He sure can, but I haven't had any success using Kirby's SHAD. It feels really limited, compared to characters with actual mobility.
Agreed that homogenization is boring, but I don't think it really matters when we're talking about the most basic of basics, things that all characters have. Grabs I can understand having different frame data/hitboxes, especially with the existence of tether grabs and the like. That makes sense, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. But everybody jumps, and there are already plenty of differences in jumping, just from the characters' attributes.
Mega man gets nothing. Not even a bair
Yoshis is top tier dont listen to themBest:
rest doesn't match up remotely as much bar MK.
The super solid mid range+ dash attacks exist:
Zelda's is really good but it's zelda, Peach's is also pretty good. Yoshi should probably be in the solid mid range punish ones but Yoshi mains are emo about their dash attack~
Shoutouts to ganondorf, falcon, duck hunt (it's animation/usages seem pretty good I forget if it's laggy though). Possibly shout outs to Roy because he has combo set ups into it and it kills (despite being the same frame data as Marth's which is one of the worst). Palutena also for having a win button dash attack.
Reverse what work? Reverse assumes they do something like return Fox's jab back to its launch frame data or returning Sheik's Bair to its pre-patch 1.0.6 frame data.
da would be good if it had hitboxes. it can confirm into any of his aerials barring dair much like his dthrow...if he could actually connect all of the hits. its just inconsistent.
Nu~
but da has like no cooldown on it and can confirm into bell for early kills as low as 50% w/ the side b, so long as you are on the edge of the stage
Yeah I can definitely admit underrating Mewtwo's and Samus (which I know is secretly the best); Jiggly I'm wary of, it can't be clanked, it can string into itself, but I can't see it as potent as others outside of a vacuum because of how deficient her grounded kit and empty jump mix ups are.
No prob.
also im gonna be ninjaing
There is indeed a pretty strong correlation between tier position and jumpsquat speed, as the frame 4s are mostly above average and frame 6+ are usually subpar. Of course better jumpsquats tend to be associated with better mobility which is also very important for competitive viability. Overall the game would be more balanced if all jumpsquats were 5 frames, with the only good character to see any substantial benefit being Ike. Link, Robin, and Ganondorf would also gain noticeably, and Wario, Puff, and Yoshi would also greatly appreciate even a 1 frame buff considering how often they're in the air. Definitely like the concept, or at least trimming down the gap to range between 4 and 6 frames. Don't see it being patched in though. Frame 10 jumps are clearly bad though because they cripple more aerial focused characters.Edit: Seems this topic was already mentioned... I was busy, so I had this post set up, but not posted hours ago.
Food for thought: jump frames. Basic data that should have been known the moment frame data studies began if you had a means to record. Here's a list of everyone's jump frames in order of highest to lowest and in alphabetical order. Pit, Marth, and Mario take precedence over Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dr. Mario.
8 frames:
7 frames:
6 frames:
5 frames:
4 frames:
Now that's done, who are the most overall mobile characters in the game with frame 4 jumps? Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS. Of those 3, Sheik and ZSS are the most notorious for their air game. Now, who else is notorious for their air game and has a frame 4 jump? Definitely pre-patch 1.0.8 Diddy, Fox, Meta Knight, and Pikachu? Meta Knight? He doesn't have an air approach! Yeah, but his frame 4 jump definitely aids in his ability to immediately followup into his infamous Uair strings to Shuttle Loop.
Frame 5 jumps are common, so there's nothing to be said, except... what about the frame 6 and above jumpers? Bowser is the only character to have a frame 8 jump. Bowser's fastest aerial is his frame 8 Nair. Assuming it's perfectly inputted, his fastest aerial is actually frame 16. Now, let's take Sheik whose fastest aerial is a frame 3 Nair. Sheik jumping and doing a Nair takes only 7 frames with against Bowser, 9 frames of leeway. You want a slow aerial? How about Greninja's frame 12 Nair. Bowser and Greninja are both going to hit on frame, but who's going to be in the air first? Sure as hell ain't Bowser. So, this effectively means Bowser is disadvantaged to all characters when taking an aerial option.
There was a question on why the bad guys almost always lose quick draw duels to the good guys in westerns. The explanation was that the bad guy consciously thinks of drawing and shooting while the good guy reacts and reflexive answers back. The idea was that reflexive actions are faster than conscious actions. This is one reason why Falco's short hop is dangerous. Reflexively, he will throw out one of the fastest and strongest aerials to answer back to your conscious thought of I'm going to intercept Falco and outwit him.
Here's the thing though, what if both players are playing on reaction and attempt to use an aerial to hit each other? 15 out of 55 characters will be disadvantaged because of their slower jumps. That's a third - approximately 27% - of the cast who attempting to reflexively jump and use an aerial will be disadvantaged to the rest of the cast. 13 out of 55 characters will be advantaged to all characters because of their quick jumps and of those 13, 6 of them, Diddy, Fox, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Sheik, and ZSS are considered top to high tier characters. 7 to 9 of the 5 frame jumpers, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Mario, Ness, ROB?, Rosalina, Ryu, Sonic, and Villager are also considered for top to high tier. The other characters? Yoshi and Wario are considered top to high tier while Ike is only considered high at best.
You start to question why? Why the hell does Falco and Yoshi, famous for their strong and high jumps in their games and in Smash have one of the slower jumps? At least Luigi has an average jump speed, but in the Mario universe, it was said that Luigi's holding back for whatever reason. He could have had a higher jump than lightweight Palutena with a frame 4 jump. Imagine that... Oh wait, you're going to have night terrors now. Falco and Yoshi make up with whatever they have; Falco's fast and strong attacks and Yoshi's high mobility and fast to average speed attacks, but what about someone like Zelda? She's not exactly mobile and a slow jump adds onto that. Zelda's slow, her moves are slow, and her aerials outside of Nair and Uair are situational. Her air game and even ground game, especially close-range and mid-range is almost nonexistent. So, with good game design, Zelda should have a slow jump... I'm sorry, but what? Characters like Link, Ike, Robin, Charizard, and Ganondorf still have functioning aerials e.g. Ganondorf's moveset being derived off of Captain Falcon aids in good speed, coverage, and low end lag or landing lag and Charizard's at least fast on the ground and has functioning aerials. Another example is Robin: Robin's aerials are phenomenal, but those small things, her jump, matters. A slow jump will hurt her aerials even though her long to mid-range are good, having a slow jump and a hilariously not funny slow ground speed are all points against her. Meanwhile, someone like Fox not only has fast ground speed, but fast jumps, fast attacks, a fast standing grab, and even fast, burst kill moves like Up Smash and Uair that can be setup from various moves such as Nair, Dair, and jab.
The bad characters of this game are not just undertuned, they're also punished, so to speak, with questionable design choices such as sporadic grab frames and jump frames. I mean, you start to wonder why Samus is so weak or why Zelda has 3 situational aerials and enters helpless mode for a move that slows her momentum down and Din's Fire being way to slow of an option to cover her recovery unlike Fox's Blaster or Yoshi's Egg Toss. In contrast, good characters are both overtuned and blessed with good, albeit questionable design choices like the disjoints on Captain Falcon, very, very low end lag on Sheik, especially her Needles allowing her to play at any range, and Rosalina not only having above average ground and air mobility, her air acceleration is also top-notch with the likes of Wario, Palutena, and just below Yoshi and Jigglypuff. Grab frames are varied, but also "standard" in weird ways like Fox and Falco share the same dash and pivot grabs, but Falco's standing grab is among the slowest melee grabs, how Ganondorf and Captain Falcon share standing grabs, but different dash and pivot grabs or how Marth, Lucina, Robin, Roy have the same grab frames, but Roy's overall more mobile allowing him to rush in and grab as he pleases in contrast to Robin and even Marth and Lucina.
I mentioned this idea already, but characters should have standardized jumps and grabs. Standard jump frames no matter how slow or how fast means nobody is at an advantage or disadvantage. Pretty sure it's standard for other fighting games such as Street Fighter and The King of Fighters to have the same jump frames for all characters. The only difference? Jump arcs and overall mobility. That's kind of like jump height and, well, overall mobility. Take Nash from Street Fighter V. Nash has overall slowish walk speed, a fast dash, and normal jump arc. Now, what would happen if he also had a slow jump? Kind of screws over Nash when he doesn't have any invincible anti-airs and one of his considered anti-airs is to jump and air grab. Now, take The King of Fighters XIII. King is considered, well, the queen of zoning - King's a woman - and like everyone else in KoF XIII, has a frame 5 jump. Now, what happens if it's frame 4? Just 1 frame? That 1 frame adds up when you consider her aerials, her aerial specials, and overall, her options both on the ground and in the air against everyone else. She will be advantaged to the entire cast of KoF XIII not matter how subtle. The main issue is that it adds up. Fox to Mario's jump is only 1 frame, Fox to Falco is 2 frames, Fox to Ike is 3 frames, and Fox to Bowser is 4 frames. That's double - Bowser takes double the amount of frames to do any aerial option against the likes of Fox, Sheik, and ZSS. Even if there should be a difference, it shouldn't be double between any character like that. Fastest jump frame of 4 to slowest jump frame of 6 is better than 4 to 8 and 4 to 5 is better than 4 to 6. 4 to 4? 5 to 5? 6 to 6? Or even 10 to 10. Hella slow jumps for everyone, but guess what? Everyone would have frame 10 jumps.
Could you explain this statement? In my mind, the main factors influencing how good a SHAD is are the character's aerial mobility, fall speed, and how good their options out of it are (fast, high coverage aerials basically). Jump squat just doesn't make the list for me. Furthermore, it seems like you're suggesting characters with long jump squats have a better SHAD game, which also doesn't make sense to me. Long jump squats unequivocally make a character's ground-to-air game worse because it takes longer to access your aerial options. I don't see how SHAD is an exception.
I would say you are playing characters with unusual aerial control.
I've done some testing myself, but no, Greninja has no options out of SHAD
The idea is that Zelda, Puff, and Samus ALREADY have good options out of their SHAD. Decreasing their jump squat makes the startup of SHAD shorter (time before intangibility). Partially why ZSS's/good characters' jumping AD is great (f6 intangibility. You trade 3 frames of startup vulnerability from rolls for movement flexibility and ~5 frame endlag. But you're now in the air which is generally bad in Smash 4 so tradeoffs.). Giving Zelda, Puff, and Samus shorter jump squats increases how good jumping airdodge is. Curiously, this may be an active decision by developers to discourage the use of jumping airdodge by these characters.
Lucas just lands during the AD. No SHAD game whatsoever. Although at least he can Zair.
Yup, movement is the core #1 thing that sakurai deems to be important for making them 'feel' like their character, even if they aren't controllable in a direct sense in their games (ie Marth or Bowser). But it's still important to Sakurai that they move the way they feel they should. Air accel, aerial movement speed, aerial deceleration, walk speed, run speed, dash length, roll speed & distance, jumpsquat length, jump heights, etc - these are all core to Sakurai and likely some of the first things designed in the characters.
Our theory's good yeah, but our results are not that remarkable.
He played 3v3 if anyone wanna watch that.
Winners Semis:RZ| M(K)~Leo(
http://www.twitch.tv/tier3gs/v/17928712?t=2h12m40s
Winners Finals:RZ| M(K)~Leo(
http://www.twitch.tv/tier3gs/v/17928712?t=2h59m51s
Grand Finals:RZ| M(K)~Leo(
http://www.twitch.tv/tier3gs/v/17928712?t=3h33m25s
Metaknight dittos strikes back.
I see the logic. As long as no one chooses
then yes the dong is strong. I mean all are uncommon, except.
Given the results Greninja has, I do have to say that he's likely not solo viable with Sheik around. The MU really is looking to be unwinnable at top level for us given how Some keeps getting roadblocked by her.
The MU probably sucks and takes a lot of effort to win in it, but it's far from unwinnable and basing this on a single top player (even if there are few greninjas) isn't a very sound observation, especially looking how young the game is compared to other FGs.
If the best Greninja player right now keeps getting roadblocked by Sheiks, then I don't think the others are going to do much better.
That's one of the stupidest things ever. Then there won't be BF edgeguards because if they air dodge you're dead.
