Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

So many times I trump someone, but Bairing them is unviable (maybe make it so you can instantly let go of ledge when you trump someone?)

Tether ledgegrab my friend, tether.

ZSS does this probably the best in the game, plus she also can hit the 2 frame ledge vulnerability with flip kick pretty easily on any recovery coming from far away / low since it has an active hitbox of 6 frames and enough priority to always beat out stuff like Fox's and Ness' up b. It's a pretty scary thing if mastered, but so far only Choco has been shown to even try to go for this.

 

[DanGR]

Is it only placebo that it feels like you can let go of the edge more quickly after trumping someone compared to grabbing the ledge and not trumping?

 

[Kaladin]

Is it only placebo that it feels like you can let go of the edge more quickly after trumping someone compared to grabbing the ledge and not trumping?

Yes, just placebo.

 

[Planty]

So guys, I'm gonna make a comment that will likely get people discussing. (I do that a lot, huh?)

From what I've learned today, most people are afraid to go and edgeguard, so they just wait onstage (unless they're fighting Mac or Luigi).

Now, if this holds true, does that not mean, for all intents and purposes, that Sheik and Falcon have the same recovery? Sheik is able to make it back from more or less anywhere, and she is nearly ungimpable. Falcon is able to make it back from just about anywhere(bar a few exceptions where people almost never get sent, such as bottom corners), but Falcon has a more gimpable recovery.

However, we've seen that people don't actually WANT to edgeguard Falcon, allowing him to come back from offstage quite easily. This basically means that Sheik will be coming back to the stage nearly all the time, and Falcon will be coming back to the stage almost all the time.

This is most likely enough to cause a huge discussion, but I'll go further. Falcon's main weakness is his recovery. Make that recovery workable (like it is in the present meta), and you suddenly have a character with rather minimal weaknesses. (Imagine if Little Mac had a good recovery and decent aerials, he'd be a great character).

So, in the present meta, is Falcon not the best character when his weaknesses don't show at all? (Please note that I don't think Falcon is the best character)

 

[meleebrawler]

So guys, I'm gonna make a comment that will likely get people discussing. (I do that a lot, huh?)

From what I've learned today, most people are afraid to go and edgeguard, so they just wait onstage (unless they're fighting Mac or Luigi).

Now, if this holds true, does that not mean, for all intents and purposes, that Sheik and Falcon have the same recovery? Sheik is able to make it back from more or less anywhere, and she is nearly ungimpable. Falcon is able to make it back from just about anywhere(bar a few exceptions where people almost never get sent, such as bottom corners), but Falcon has a more gimpable recovery.

However, we've seen that people don't actually WANT to edgeguard Falcon, allowing him to come back from offstage quite easily. This basically means that Sheik will be coming back to the stage nearly all the time, and Falcon will be coming back to the stage almost all the time.

This is most likely enough to cause a huge discussion, but I'll go further. Falcon's main weakness is his recovery. Make that recovery workable (like it is in the present meta), and you suddenly have a character with rather minimal weaknesses. (Imagine if Little Mac had a good recovery and decent aerials, he'd be a great character).

So, in the present meta, is Falcon not the best character when his weaknesses don't show at all? (Please note that I don't think Falcon is the best character)

Falcon still gets comboed by pretty much anything imaginable and handles disadvantage poorly. He also is somewhat lacking in safe approach options (mostly just dash grab and bair).

 

[Jabejazz]

So guys, I'm gonna make a comment that will likely get people discussing. (I do that a lot, huh?)

From what I've learned today, most people are afraid to go and edgeguard, so they just wait onstage (unless they're fighting Mac or Luigi).

Honestly have no idea how you concluded that "edgeguarding someone is not as braindead as you imply" equals to "I'm afraid to edgeguard Falcon".

 

[Planty]

@ meleebrawler
His disadvantaged state is still better than Fox's.

And how does Sheik approach? Grab and Fair mostly.

And when recoveries aren't counted, who is actually better than Falcon?

@ Jabejazz
I honestly have no idea why you never listened to my arguments and just passed them off without giving an explanation. And many people answered to me saying that they didn't edgeguard because they're afraid they'll get in a bad position if they mess up. And it's not just about Falcon either. No character except Mac and Luigi are ever edgeguarded.

 

[Kaladin]

So guys, I'm gonna make a comment that will likely get people discussing. (I do that a lot, huh?)

From what I've learned today, most people are afraid to go and edgeguard, so they just wait onstage (unless they're fighting Mac or Luigi).

Now, if this holds true, does that not mean, for all intents and purposes, that Sheik and Falcon have the same recovery? Sheik is able to make it back from more or less anywhere, and she is nearly ungimpable. Falcon is able to make it back from just about anywhere(bar a few exceptions where people almost never get sent, such as bottom corners), but Falcon has a more gimpable recovery.

However, we've seen that people don't actually WANT to edgeguard Falcon, allowing him to come back from offstage quite easily. This basically means that Sheik will be coming back to the stage nearly all the time, and Falcon will be coming back to the stage almost all the time.

This is most likely enough to cause a huge discussion, but I'll go further. Falcon's main weakness is his recovery. Make that recovery workable (like it is in the present meta), and you suddenly have a character with rather minimal weaknesses. (Imagine if Little Mac had a good recovery and decent aerials, he'd be a great character).

So, in the present meta, is Falcon not the best character when his weaknesses don't show at all? (Please note that I don't think Falcon is the best character)

No, because falcon also has a hard time getting off the ledge, certainly less-so than sheik. Since you assume people wait onstage, then, obviously, it follows that falcon will have his exploitable ledge-options expiated.

Very interesting question, and I definitely agree we need more intelligent but YOLO edge guarding.

Edit:

@ Jabejazz
I honestly have no idea why you never listened to my arguments and just passed them off without giving an explanation. And many people answered to me saying that they didn't edgeguard because they're afraid they'll get in a bad position if they mess up. And it's not just about Falcon either. No character except Mac and Luigi are ever edgeguarded.

Go watch Dabuz vs FOW and get back to me.

Also, Wario and others have (literally) farted on Rosa's recovery in tournament. ESAM gimped Nairo's ZSS multiple times at Smash Con, etc. I think you mean scrubs don't edge guard.

 

[Planty]

No, because falcon also has a hard time getting off the ledge, certainly less-so than sheik. Since you assume people wait onstage, then, obviously, it follows that falcon will have his exploitable ledge-options expiated.

Don't all the characters have the same ledge options? I guess Sheik or ZSS could double jump and down-b or or Pika could QA but... it's mostly the same cast wide. Why does Falcon have poor ledge options?

 

[Kaladin]

Don't all the characters have the same ledge options? I guess Sheik or ZSS could double jump and down-b or or Pika could QA but... it's mostly the same cast wide. Why does Falcon have poor ledge options?

Sheik and others have bouncing fish mixups, and the ability to go under the stage, which falcon markedly does not.

 

[FullMoon]

It depends on when you do it. I've had the projectiles from HP clank against Upperdash before but that's early on in the move. Later on Upperdash can be pushed like normal.

Also I wouldn't describe this as a reflection. Mario's cape reflects Upperdash definitely, but HP just pushes things around.

He said that the Upperdash reflects Hydro Pump, which is true because if Greninja is still close enough the water does go back at him and pushes him a bit.

 

[Trifroze]

Edgeguarding is definitely something people will eventually get better at, now we only see it properly utilized on the highest level (not to say there aren't exceptions elsewhere as well). It however isn't as simple as "Falcon should always die when he has to resort to up b". It only has 14 frames of startup, it lets you weave back and forth before you start moving, and it has massive disjointed grab range that, for example, will grab Pikachu out of any of his aerials. In fact I made a video about it when Falcon boards were discussing the Pikachu MU:

Gimps on recoveries like Falcon, Ganondorf let alone Villager aren't free because they are still hard to react to or impossible if used close enough to the ledge, and the user retains more or less movement options while they're committing to their up b. However right now people aren't even trying to gimp characters who would pretty much 50% likely lose their stock if they went for it, with the reason being "if I fail I might get put into a slightly disadvantageous position". Not a good enough reason to ignore the reward for going for gimps.

 

[David Viran]

No, because falcon also has a hard time getting off the ledge, certainly less-so than sheik. Since you assume people wait onstage, then, obviously, it follows that falcon will have his exploitable ledge-options expiated.

Very interesting question, and I definitely agree we need more intelligent but YOLO edge guarding.

Edit:


Go watch Dabuz vs FOW and get back to me.

Also, Wario and others have (literally) farted on Rosa's recovery in tournament. ESAM gimped Nairo's ZSS multiple times at Smash Con, etc. I think you mean scrubs don't edge guard.

TBF nairo ****ed up a good amount when recovering against esam and against pika you can't screw up when recovering. Like I think he did it twice but he went to flip jump to the ledge but flip jumped in a way where it doesn't go over the ledge and doesn't grab the ledge so he was just left vulnerable flip jumping into the stage and got hit had already lost his DJ and died.

 

[Lavani]

Is it only placebo that it feels like you can let go of the edge more quickly after trumping someone compared to grabbing the ledge and not trumping?

Definitely placebo. It probably feels that way because you've already used some of your own ledge hang time by the time they're ejected, meaning the timeframe between when they're ejected and when you let go is less than your total forced hang time.

 

[Routa]

However right now people aren't even trying to gimp characters who would pretty much 50% likely lose their stock if they went for it, with the reason being "if I fail I might get put into a slightly disadvantageous position". Not a good enough reason to ignore the reward for going for gimps.

The most common reason whatI hear is "if I try to gimp him, I might loose stock due to failed attempt while my foe happens to survival". As a Ike main going for a gimp with Ike is mostly no no. Why? Go too deep -> you wont come back, get hit while gimping -> you wont come back, didn't manage to b-reverse up-b -> you wont come back etc. It is not as simple as it may look like.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The most common reason whatI hear is "if I try to gimp him, I might loose stock due to failed attempt while my foe happens to survival". As a Ike main going for a gimp with Ike is mostly no no. Why? Go too deep -> you wont come back, get hit while gimping -> you wont come back, didn't manage to b-reverse up-b -> you wont come back etc. It is not as simple as it may look like.

Going for the gimp as Ike is perfectly fine. Uair and Fair both work, as does run off Bair.

Eruption is simply superior because its going to kill more reliably and if your good the opponent can't avoid it.

 

[san.]

to "Gimp" as Ike, you just fair once and you're done (I go for twice if I'm in a good position afterwards). If you miss, you can perform another aerial if you have your double jump, or you reverse aether if you want or if you didn't make it back to the stage yet.

Jump/moving + fair covers a lot of distance quickly so you can hit with it relatively well. Then there's uair/nair for lingering hitboxes where nair resets their position pretty much, and bair for a reactive approach. When you double jump, you should put all your momentum back towards the stage.

You mostly apply a bit of pressure, get a free hit if you can, and reset the situation if you miss.

Going for the gimp as Ike is perfectly fine. Uair and Fair both work, as does run off Bair.

Eruption is simply superior because its going to kill more reliably and if your good the opponent can't avoid it.

Then there's this. Ike can choose to eruption below the stage and hit you before you grab the edge, or he can move a foot and a half back and cover all ledge getup options.

Covering all ledge getup options is described here:

 

[Antonykun]

Gimps on recoveries like Falcon, Ganondorf let alone Villager aren't free...

I feel as though I might be to blame for some of this but. Villager should never be gimped. In my entire 4000+ battles as villager I have only ever been "gimped" once and that's because I was being reckless with the newly nerfed EBT, IE I let myself run out of gas and could not detonate the balloons in time. As long as Villager can use Balloon Trip, then she will come back.

The only way you can gimp a good villager is if you somehow pop the balloons WHILE not hitting Villager, which is tough because of hitlag in hitting the balloons, WHILE also doing so very far away from the ledge as so villager can't just move herself to the ledge to grab it. for example what is the scene people usually think of when they think about popping Villager's balloons? Rosalina's reveal trailer of course, but even then Villager could have easily angled the boost he gets from the balloons being popped to grab the ledge

Being Gimped is usually not Villager's problem, its how intercept able the move is. I'm going to take a quote from @zeezee that I can no longer find thus I can't make a 1 for 1 direct quote:
"You'll come back but you're going to have to take a lot of damage coming back"

basically when Villager is far enough from the ledge that his only meaningful option is to Balloon Trip, then villager becomes a sitting duck, otherwise villager has enough mixup options with her double jump and aerials to make it back relatively safe from being sent offstage. This especially true for characters who can stay just under the ledge for a long period of time like Peach, Kirby, and another Villager or characters who have powerful spikes like Falcon, Ganon, and another Villager (basically recovering in a mirror match is stressful)

wait did I just go in an almost essay responding to a not even sentence. Who am I @Ffamran ?! have i told you about Falco's jab 2 not linking to the jab infinite?
*goes off on a long rant about Falco and game design*

 

[Trifroze]

I feel as though I might be to blame for some of this but. Villager should never be gimped. In my entire 4000+ battles as villager I have only ever been "gimped" once and that's because I was being reckless with the newly nerfed EBT, IE I let myself run out of gas and could not detonate the balloons in time. As long as Villager can use Balloon Trip, then she will come back.

The only way you can gimp a good villager is if you somehow pop the balloons WHILE not hitting Villager, which is tough because of hitlag in hitting the balloons, WHILE also doing so very far away from the ledge as so villager can't just move herself to the ledge to grab it. for example what is the scene people usually think of when they think about popping Villager's balloons? Rosalina's reveal trailer of course, but even then Villager could have easily angled the boost he gets from the balloons being popped to grab the ledge

Being Gimped is usually not Villager's problem, its how intercept able the move is. I'm going to take a quote from @zeezee that I can no longer find thus I can't make a 1 for 1 direct quote:
"You'll come back but you're going to have to take a lot of damage coming back"

basically when Villager is far enough from the ledge that his only meaningful option is to Balloon Trip, then villager becomes a sitting duck, otherwise villager has enough mixup options with her double jump and aerials to make it back relatively safe from being sent offstage. This especially true for characters who can stay just under the ledge for a long period of time like Peach, Kirby, and another Villager or characters who have powerful spikes like Falcon, Ganon, and another Villager (basically recovering in a mirror match is stressful)

wait did I just go in an almost essay responding to a not even sentence. Who am I @Ffamran ?! have i told you about Falco's jab 2 not linking to the jab infinite?
*goes off on a long rant about Falco and game design*

I might be using gimp in too broad of a sense, I'm also talking about meteor cheese and basically any offstage kill that resulted from the opponent being punished for committing into their recovery. In this definition I've done it on Villager quite often but on someone like Sheik not so much.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I feel as though I might be to blame for some of this but. Villager should never be gimped. In my entire 4000+ battles as villager I have only ever been "gimped" once and that's because I was being reckless with the newly nerfed EBT, IE I let myself run out of gas and could not detonate the balloons in time. As long as Villager can use Balloon Trip, then she will come back.

The only way you can gimp a good villager is if you somehow pop the balloons WHILE not hitting Villager, which is tough because of hitlag in hitting the balloons, WHILE also doing so very far away from the ledge as so villager can't just move herself to the ledge to grab it. for example what is the scene people usually think of when they think about popping Villager's balloons? Rosalina's reveal trailer of course, but even then Villager could have easily angled the boost he gets from the balloons being popped to grab the ledge

Being Gimped is usually not Villager's problem, its how intercept able the move is. I'm going to take a quote from @zeezee that I can no longer find thus I can't make a 1 for 1 direct quote:
"You'll come back but you're going to have to take a lot of damage coming back"

basically when Villager is far enough from the ledge that his only meaningful option is to Balloon Trip, then villager becomes a sitting duck, otherwise villager has enough mixup options with her double jump and aerials to make it back relatively safe from being sent offstage. This especially true for characters who can stay just under the ledge for a long period of time like Peach, Kirby, and another Villager or characters who have powerful spikes like Falcon, Ganon, and another Villager (basically recovering in a mirror match is stressful)

wait did I just go in an almost essay responding to a not even sentence. Who am I @Ffamran ?! have i told you about Falco's jab 2 not linking to the jab infinite?
*goes off on a long rant about Falco and game design*

If you recover low as villager vs Rosalina that's a dead villager. Unless she doesn't have luma. It's really not that hard.

 

[Antonykun]

If you recover low as villager vs Rosalina that's a dead villager. Unless she doesn't have luma.

Imma assume because of D-air spike otherwise could you please explain

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Imma assume because of D-air spike otherwise could you please explain

Not just dair but bair is very good against his recovery.

 

[Smog Frog]

i assume its hitlag. you get the 2 hits extended by hitlag, which hit .

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel as though I might be to blame for some of this but. Villager should never be gimped. In my entire 4000+ battles as villager I have only ever been "gimped" once and that's because I was being reckless with the newly nerfed EBT, IE I let myself run out of gas and could not detonate the balloons in time. As long as Villager can use Balloon Trip, then she will come back.

The only way you can gimp a good villager is if you somehow pop the balloons WHILE not hitting Villager, which is tough because of hitlag in hitting the balloons, WHILE also doing so very far away from the ledge as so villager can't just move herself to the ledge to grab it. for example what is the scene people usually think of when they think about popping Villager's balloons? Rosalina's reveal trailer of course, but even then Villager could have easily angled the boost he gets from the balloons being popped to grab the ledge

Being Gimped is usually not Villager's problem, its how intercept able the move is. I'm going to take a quote from @zeezee that I can no longer find thus I can't make a 1 for 1 direct quote:
"You'll come back but you're going to have to take a lot of damage coming back"

basically when Villager is far enough from the ledge that his only meaningful option is to Balloon Trip, then villager becomes a sitting duck, otherwise villager has enough mixup options with her double jump and aerials to make it back relatively safe from being sent offstage. This especially true for characters who can stay just under the ledge for a long period of time like Peach, Kirby, and another Villager or characters who have powerful spikes like Falcon, Ganon, and another Villager (basically recovering in a mirror match is stressful)

wait did I just go in an almost essay responding to a not even sentence. Who am I @Ffamran ?! have i told you about Falco's jab 2 not linking to the jab infinite?
*goes off on a long rant about Falco and game design*

Real talk, has literally anyone ever popped Villager's balloons in the first place? I'd be hard pressed to pull off that Star Bits gimp in the first place, even if Villager could theoretically grab the ledge anyway. My current theory is that any single hitbox can only pop one balloon at a time. (I base this on never popping both at once with moves like Rosalina's dair.)

 

[Antonykun]

Real talk, has literally anyone ever popped Villager's balloons in the first place? I'd be hard pressed to pull off that Star Bits gimp in the first place, even if Villager could theoretically grab the ledge anyway. My current theory is that any single hitbox can only pop one balloon at a time. (I base this on never popping both at once with moves like Rosalina's dair.)

i believe my villager's balloons got popped like maybe in the tens (out of 4000+ games) and all of them ended with me grabbing the ledge. only being able top pop one balloon per hitbox probably how Balloon Trip works though

 

[PK Gaming]

Hah, WFT is actually pretty awesome post patch

The extra healing, better grab game and general fixes go a long way towards making this character better

 

[Splebel]

If Villager didn't fly up when all their balloons go away they would be easier to gimp. I've had a couple survive by flying up and grabbing the ledge after I destroy their balloons.

 

[Jehtt]

Real talk, has literally anyone ever popped Villager's balloons in the first place? I'd be hard pressed to pull off that Star Bits gimp in the first place, even if Villager could theoretically grab the ledge anyway. My current theory is that any single hitbox can only pop one balloon at a time. (I base this on never popping both at once with moves like Rosalina's dair.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN70qY0pQFk

All humor aside, if you slow down the video right as MK hits Villager's balloons with F-air, you'll notice that the first hit pops both of them. So it is possible for one hitbox to pop both, but it needs perfect spacing.

 

[outfoxd]

I've seen wii fit dair Villager to the pits. I think header blows through the balloons too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Is there anything that can directly contest Ike going for the Eruption ledge punish and prevent him from getting the timing down exactly, or at least prevent him from getting himself optimally positioned?

The only two characters I can think of that could would be Robin and Megaman, with Arcthunder/Arcfire and Crash Bomber respectively, the former forcing a shield and the latter forcing a premature release to avoid Crash Bomber's explosions. Maybe Lucas's PK Fire? Do the Ikes have countermeasures for these examples?

 

[Mario766]

Any projectile can force it to stop based on positioning. The best way around the projectile is to just wait until they aren't able to use the projectile.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

One frustrating thing as a Falcon main recovering is that if you go below the ledge and Up-B someone, you have 40 frames of cooldown where you do your cool flip. If you send the opponent into the stage and he techs, chances are he can get a free hit.

 

[san.]

Is there anything that can directly contest Ike going for the Eruption ledge punish and prevent him from getting the timing down exactly, or at least prevent him from getting himself optimally positioned?

The only two characters I can think of that could would be Robin and Megaman, with Arcthunder/Arcfire and Crash Bomber respectively, the former forcing a shield and the latter forcing a premature release to avoid Crash Bomber's explosions. Maybe Lucas's PK Fire? Do the Ikes have countermeasures for these examples?

You can jump before charging, use other attacks as a mixup, or wait a bit since it takes a low amount of charge to kill people above 80%. It's probably best to recover quickly since Ike wouldn't expect it and it likely won't kill below 80% if some charge wasn't built up.

Many of the better characters can also stall and alter their timing as desired, but it's heavily dependent on the Ike player's reaction time. Many Ike players don't really fully grasp the eruption timing and don't go for it too often.

 

[Vipermoon]

If I can recovery extra fast (if I'm not too far away) I'll usually try to hit Ike with the top of DS while getting the ledge sweetspot. If I am too far away for that hitbox I either do a Dancing Blade stall and hope it throws them off or when feeling brave I hold down so I skip the ledge a bit and that will hit Ike (and hopefully there won't be any trades )

 

[Mario766]

Eruption would trade with Dolphin Slash but Ike has to hard read DS because of how fast it is.

 

[Kaladin]

Theory time! In the real smash 4 20XX, when everyone does everything optimally, what characters will rise? As a starting point, lets say everyone masters and always applies everything MySmashCorner has made a vid on.

 

[Antonykun]

Theory time! In the real smash 4 20XX, when everyone does everything optimally, what characters will rise? As a starting point, lets say everyone masters and always applies everything MySmashCorner has made a vid on.

My money is on Little Mac and Falcon. A huge disadvantage means nothing if you're always pushing your amazing neutral/advantage state. Sheik would probably look closer to melee Fox. Pac-man mains will no longer be teased for their amazing theorycrafting (which is a very Pac-man main thing to do considering how much creativity it requires to constantly make imaginary scenarios) as they would have the footage to back up their theories

 

[Kaladin]

My money is on Little Mac and Falcon. A huge disadvantage means nothing if you're always pushing your amazing neutral/advantage state. Sheik would probably look closer to melee Fox. Pac-man mains will no longer be teased for their amazing theorycrafting (which is a very Pac-man main thing to do considering how much creativity it requires to constantly make imaginary scenarios) as they would have the footage to back up their theories

Interesting. Personally, I expect Lucas and Ryu to be top 10 when this happens. Ryu has all the potential in the world, and Lucas has stupid footstool shenanigans.

 

[Antonykun]

Interesting. Personally, I expect Lucas and Ryu to be top 10 when this happens. Ryu has all the potential in the world, and Lucas has stupid footstool shenanigans.

I personally don't buy into Lucas being top 10 in 20sheiksheik because a lot of what he does is off a tether grab which can be easily avoided in 20sheiksheik
Ryu on the other hand would be possibly top 5 as an unstoppable force of perfect shield s and punishment

 

[Kaladin]

I personally don't buy into Lucas being top 10 in 20sheiksheik because a lot of what he does is off a tether grab which can be easily avoided in 20sheiksheik
Ryu on the other hand would be possibly top 5 as an unstoppable force of perfect shield s and punishment

Perhaps, but isn't Zair to grab true for Lucas?