Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

Ffamran @ARGHETH

First, patch changes to DB were a few frames less lag on DB1, DB3 forward works slightly better, and the windows for inputting the next attack were increased.

Dancing Blade still doesn't work (especially compared to Brawl where it was perfect, too perfect).

Fun fact, Marth's Brawl Dancing Blade animations are still present when DB is done in the air. They are all a little different. This is proof for what's next.

The new DB2 animation strikes very low that unless they have a super high gravity, it will go right under your opponent's feet at even lower-mid percents and made worse with rage. DB1 does too much KB which is half the problem. As a result, DB will do less damage and won't combo between hits 1 and 3 when DB2 misses. So say hi to things like fast aerials (hello especially frame 3 Nairs) and jumping out or even landing and rolling behind to punish. The up variant isn't reliable and the down varient varies is but also isn't usually reliable. Basically your only choices are DB1, 2, 3, up 4 or DB 1, 2, 3, forward 4 but like it was stated above, not even this works perfectly in most cases.

Other DB issues include the huge lag added to DB4 down (this was really important in Melee and Brawl where in some cases it was safe on shield), the DB3 down damage nerf, and the lag/animation slowing of DB1.

DB isn't nearly as embarrassing as the hitbox problems plaguing his normals though.

Edit: I'd like to mention that DB is probably my most common punish out of shield drop so yes it is a big deal that it has to work

 

[Trifroze]

Edit: DB jinxed

Flaco

I may overestimate Falco but he has something that Zelda lacks which is that he actually exceeds at something, he has really good moves for CQC including all his tilts, nair, bair (god tier) and an actually useful reflector. Jab could work better but it's still a 2 frame option.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This is the appropriate place for that, with some caveats. (Which we'll be clarifying and formalizing very soon!)

This gist is, we want discussion to always tie back to the real game, and never spiral down a rabbit hole of alternate universe hypotheticals.

For example, these past few posts of hypothetical changes to Jigglypuff have remained firmly rooted in a discussion of "What are Jigglypuff's problems in Smash 4? What tools does she have, what tools are missing or insufficient, and how can players fighting against Jigglypuff exploit that?"

Considering hypotheticals is fun, but only useful as long as it provides an educational reflection back into reality. It should keep the discussion going, not divert it.

FWIW, I generally enjoy reading about hypothetical character changes for the similar reason that it helps provide insight on what's good (or bad) about a character. Game design is fun.

Am I to understand that you've replaced Shaya as the lead thread admin person? (What happened to Shaya anyway? Haven't seen him around in a while.)

 

[Y2Kay]

FWIW, I generally enjoy reading about hypothetical character changes for the similar reason that it helps provide insight on what's good (or bad) about a character. Game design is fun.

Am I to understand that you've replaced Shaya as the lead thread admin person? (What happened to Shaya anyway? Haven't seen him around in a while.)

He's been offline for a few weeks. His whereabouts are unkown

 

[DunnoBro]

Jiggs is a ledgeplay character so I'd like to see her ledge coverage options made more all-encompassing and threatening.

Pound's hitbox increased/altered to cover jump, get-up, hang, and the 2-frame ledge grab for a time period would be the place to start. Roll and get-up attack are not covered, but punished hard by rest.

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran @ARGHETH

First, patch changes to DB were a few frames less lag on DB1, DB3 forward works slightly better, and the windows for inputting the next attack were increased.

Dancing Blade still doesn't work (especially compared to Brawl where it was perfect, too perfect).

Fun fact, Marth's Brawl Dancing Blade animations are still present when DB is done in the air. They are all a little different. This is proof for what's next.

The new DB2 animation strikes very low that unless they have a super high gravity, it will go right under your opponent's feet at even lower-mid percents and made worse with rage. DB1 does too much KB which is half the problem. As a result, DB will do less damage and won't combo between hits 1 and 3 when DB2 misses. So say hi to things like fast aerials (hello especially frame 3 Nairs) and jumping out or even landing and rolling behind to punish. The up variant isn't reliable and the down varient varies is but also isn't usually reliable. Basically your only choices are DB1, 2, 3, up 4 or DB 1, 2, 3, forward 4 but like it was stated above, not even this works perfectly in most cases.

Other DB issues include the huge lag added to DB4 down (this was really important in Melee and Brawl where in some cases it was safe on shield), the DB3 down damage nerf, and the lag/animation slowing of DB1.

DB isn't nearly as embarrassing as the hitbox problems plaguing his normals though.

Edit: I'd like to mention that DB is probably my most common punish out of shield drop so yes it is a big deal that it has to work

Wait... They didn't touch how Dancing Blade transitioned like what happened to Ike's jab in 1.0.8? Hmm... I don't have Roy, but whenever I see Roy players use Double-Edge Dance, it seems to connect well most of the time. DED does function differently, so maybe that's why?

I may overestimate Falco but he has something that Zelda lacks which is that he actually exceeds at something, he has really good moves for CQC including all his tilts, nair, bair (god tier) and an actually useful reflector. Jab could work better but it's still a 2 frame option.

Like I said, minor problem that can be a major problem, but only in certain, albeit, common scenarios. It's not an instant, Falco dies if he uses jab, but it is really annoying. In high level play, people avoid button-mashing for various reasons, but preventing accidental buffering is a major issue. I mean, let's say the Luigi players knows you can punish Falco's jab with Nair, but what if his finger accidentally slips and he inputs a Dair or Bair instead? Too slow moves and if he lands, he might have landing lag. At the same time, knowing it can work means you can hard punish Falco.

Major problems for me are all of his Specials outside of Reflector which honestly, the most it needs is less recovery and more would be adding a frame 4 hitbox with set knockback for the kick letting Falco do like say, 2% (kick) + 5% (Reflector) at pointblank. If customs were used more, that kick hitbox could make Accel-Reflector a much better option than it is now where it can't be used at max range or any range and it's only real use is reflecting which Reflector does a better job while being able to be used as a poke. 2x on reflected projectiles for more startup, less damage, and less knockback making it less safe isn't worth it.

Spoiler: Stuff nobody wants to read

Tweaking his moves are one thing; overhauling them is another. Fire Bird could "easily" be tweaked by removing the charge and making it launch at frame 25-ish like Fire Wolf or keep the charge, but speed up the entire move so it launches at frame 25-ish instead of 43 like Fire Fox. It'll still be a crappy move, but for recovery sake's, it'll be better... Maybe too better. Swap his default with Fast Fire Bird? Less vertical distance, but much faster startup. Either option would result in a still easy to punish and negligible damage move. Now, how much time that would take? It might not take a lot of time to change it, but to balance the fact it's almost a different move or replaced by a different move... Yeah... Plus, people might not be happy Falco has this change while say, Kirby doesn't get Upper Cutter instead of Final Cutter or Captain Falcon's Falcon Dive hitbox wasn't sped up. The "simpler" way is to just fix the angles and hitboxes on Fire Bird, but that doesn't change the fact it's basically an inferior Fire Wolf and/or Twisting Fox and an inferior, multi-hitting Fire Fox. Falco Phantasm having a full hitbox could cause issues, especially if the entire hitbox is a soft spike. Even with say, half is a spike and half is a weak hit, it would still kind of be a better Fox Illusion. If it were up to me, Falco Phantasm would be overhauled entirely or replaced by something else. Even if it were to be replaced in Smash 4, imagine the time it would take. That's time better spent with other characters, content, or even development of a new (and different) game. The R.E.D. Kick idea would still take a crapton of time despite it being an "aerial Fox Side Smash" and could easily be frame 19 - just a frame slower than his Falco Phantasm - if they make it so 6 frames, Falco's jump frame, is when Falco starts moving and 13 frames - same startup as Fox's Side Smash - later is when the earliest hit comes out. Or the Sonic Move idea even if it were limited to just Falco Phase-like travel, but with lower total frames? Yeah... It'd be a long roll if done wrong and people hate rolls in this game, especially online. Once again, you'd have to balance the frick out of this. Blaster with just lower recovery is fine, but part of me feels like his Blaster's design: a projectile capable of continual fire and causing hit stun, is the problem. Can they straightup remove his ability to continually fire and lower his total frames to say, 45 on the ground and 40 in the air? Sure, but how do you balance this? Then there's the issue of would people be okay that Falco "lost" a part of his "identity"? Each of these could take a whole weeks worth of work on one character's move. That's much, much better time spent making 10+ other character function better.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait... They didn't touch how Dancing Blade transitioned like what happened to Ike's jab in 1.0.8? Hmm... I don't have Roy, but whenever I see Roy players use Double-Edge Dance, it seems to connect well most of the time. DED does function differently, so maybe that's why?[/SPOILER]

No they only added 5 frames to the end of each timing window which is good and Roy didn't get that. Before that they changed the angles and KB values for DB3. Before that DB1 received an earlier IASA.

Roy's DED does connect very well. It is due to many things. Each hit does 1% less damage than Marth's equivalent DB and he has different (generally favorable) KB values.

 

[Thinkaman]

Am I to understand that you've replaced Shaya as the lead thread admin person? (What happened to Shaya anyway? Haven't seen him around in a while.)

Shaya is (hopefully) taking a break to live life. I am the new sheriff in town, against my better judgement.

If Doc got momentum on his sheet it would ruin a lot of its current setups. Sorry FFam, but I'd like to retain its functionality.

It's also the only ledge-snapping tool that doesn't affect momentum in any way.

I want to drill into this, because I think it's really key and a big reason why Doc has been underrated. (Also, I don't think it got analyzed in previous Doc discussion following MLG.

If you go watch Nario vs. ESAM (mandatory viewing for this thread btw), look how important cape usage is to Nairo's success.

Look at Mario. With the momentum boost of Cape, his SH Cape seems to last about 41 frames before landing. Cape itself only lasts 36, so Mario has time to nair, uair, or even dair. However, the momentum does mean the cape usually whiffs on characters as short as Mario himself.

Now look back to Doc. With no momentum, his SH Cape seems to match his SH length exactly. (If it's not 36 frames, it's darn close.) While Mario enjoys the option of doing a landing aerial or double jumping, Doc enjoys direct transition (skipping even soft landing lag) to his vastly superior ground options. He can frame 2 jab, use his incredibly scary and versatile frame-3-invincible-b-reversible-on-hit-or-block up-b KO move, go for a grab (as they are hit by or block the projectile), go for a smash on a flipped opponent, or simply shield. I mean, really--did you see how many times Nairo did a SH cape and went for a grab? Mario literally cannot do that!

But wait, there's more! While Mario whiffs opponents, Doc carries the 3-frame hitbox down with him, hitting way more opponents and projectiles.

And as meleebrawler pointed out, he can even do this on a ledge! What other descending move lets you grab the ledge while having a disjointed active hitbox? (Bowser/Yoshi down-b doesn't count)

Doc really is a different beast from Mario in this game.


Assertion I'm not 100% on, but am prepared to defend because it'll be fun:

Doctor Mario has the best on-stage disadvantage in the game.

• Decent size, weight, and fallspeed combo--not especially exploitable by anything
• Frame 3 nair that lasts 25 frames with 12 frames landing lag
• Frame 4 uair
• Frame 3 hit+invincible up-b that can KO and is reversible on hit and block
• Frame 6 1.5x reflection hitbox, which does not delay his return to the stage
• The ability to drag said hitbox into a ledge
• If he has to retreat to shield as his disadvantage endgame, he has A+ OoS options

Lots of people have comparably good options in disadvantage, but no one has that many. Mario comes closest; has has a more useful dair, but does less damage (worse for trades in aerial disadvantage) and lacks the all-purpose scare factor in up-b plus the superior cape behavior for this context.

The one big disadvantage Doc does have in disadvantage (har har) is poor air speed.

Thoughts?

 

[Vipermoon]

*12 frames of landing lag
*frame 11 Dair

 

[Thinkaman]

*12 frames of landing lag
*frame 11 Dair

Oops, my data had Doc and Mario dair swapped. I knew something looked wrong! Fixed.

 

[Ffamran]

Wait... Mario's Dair has 19 frames of landing lag and is frame 5 and Dr. Mario's has 21 frames of landing lag and is frame 11... Mario's Uair has 12 frames of landing lag, though... >_>

 

[Lavani]

Doc's upB isn't invincible, unless it's in a different part of the move than it is for Mario/Luigi.

 

[Djent]

I wouldn't quite call it "universal healthcare" good, but 's disadvantage is quite strong. His air speed is indeed a liability; to see why, you should look at the other characters who are frequently cited as having incredible escape options. Sheik and ZSS have partially-invincible horizontal movement options. Pika has bad airspeed like Doc does, but it's hard to cover his landings because of QA as well as his aerials. Diddy may no longer have the uair of the gods, but he still has monkey flip to alter his aerial trajectory.

Notice the theme? Good combo-breaking abilities may treat existing ailments, and strong OoS options are effective as preventative medicine. But sometimes you just need to get far away from whatever it was that made you sick, and I'm not sure how Doc is supposed to do that.

EDIT: rephrased 2nd sentence

 

[Thinkaman]

Doc's upB isn't invincible, unless it's in a different part of the move than it is for Mario/Luigi.

Wait, I could have sworn it was? Man, tonight is not my night.

Still, it does hit on frame 3.

 

[Green L]

• Her moveset is slower and less spamable, especially bair.

• No DACUS.

• No ledge-hogging, which favored her quite a bit.

I actually think it's a good thing bair isn't as spammable as it was in melee. Bair overshadowed the rest of her aerials.
Jigglypuff can use ledge trumps to her advantage or have we forget all about ledge trumps in sm4sh?

 

[Thinkaman]

I actually think it's a good thing bair isn't as spammable as it was in melee. Bair overshadowed the rest of her aerials.

As someone who exclusively plays Jiggs in Melee, I can confidently say that she was a pretty terribly designed character, lol.

Jigglypuff can use ledge trumps to her advantage or have we forget all about ledge trumps in sm4sh?

Since you can buffer ledge options, ledge trumps should ideally never happen and are (unfortunately) not terrible relevant to high level Smash 4 play. I do not buy that they are totally irrelevant (we do rarely see them happen even in top level matches in frantic, surprise moments), but they are really not a significant factor.

 

[Mario766]

Youmacon 2015 Top 8 Character spread

Zinoto
GGA.Dan
Ryuga
GGA.Demitus
GGA.NiTe
AfRoToAd
Nom
Ksev

I'm okay with this.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wait, I could have sworn it was? Man, tonight is not my night.

Still, it does hit on frame 3.

Yeah, I used to think so too. Then I traded hits Sheik's fair on the sweetspot (and buffered in a second hit, hehehe).
Turns out it's just that his fist becomes gigantic for a second.

 

[Browny]

The effort makes the character less appealing to play.

WHY PLAY JIGGLYPUFF

WHEN YOU CAN PLAY X WHO DOES THINGS BETTER WITH LESS EFFORT???????

Because jigglypuff is adorable

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Incidentally, the Smash wiki, last I checked, claimed that Mewtwo was nerfed overall from Melee, even though almost everything besides his weight, teleport and debatably shadow ball if you miss charging damage are improved. Some of his moves got slower (bair and ftilt mainly) but gained power to match. Not only does he have a dash attack now, but it's one of the best. All of his smashes have the power they're supposed to have, fair's hitbox is improved to the point you're no longer forced to rely on setups to consistently land it, he no longer has a ******** hurtbox that a shield can't cover and confusion/disable speak for themselves.

The site mainly cites the loss of wavedashing and double-jump cancel combos (although the latter makes his recovery even better) as the reason he's nerfed.



It's also the only ledge-snapping tool that doesn't affect momentum in any way.

Pretty sure if you nerf a characters frame data across the board restrict their movement options and mix up game they're going to be a worse character.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd say trumps are still a significant factor for characters like sonic and mario who punish the wrong buffered option hard and consistently.

But just having a ledge trump > bair isn't enough. Generally to make a ledge trump scary you need a consistent way to kill off at least 2 buffered options or can react with kills, and the air/ground/ledge grab speed to make the trump less obvious.

Unfortunately, few characters seem to have the speed necessary and reasons to ledge trump that make it truly potent.

 

[Thinkaman]

Pretty sure if you nerf a characters frame data across the board restrict their movement options and mix up game they're going to be a worse character.

Pretty sure that when an awkward floaty character is no longer invalidated by melee Marth, melee Sheik, melee Fox, and melee Falco, they have nowhere to go but up.

 

[Wintropy]

For an ostensible top-tier, we don't see much of Fox in bracket. Can anybody tell me why that is?

Is it because the better Fox mains don't go to that many tourneys (for example, Ike isn't top-tier, but he gets good representation because he has a few dedicated mains that regularly go to things and do well)? Does he have some kind of fatal matchup that nobody wants to go in for (pretty much impossible if he's that good a character)? Is he just not that popular?

 

[Rizen]

I wouldn't quite call it "universal healthcare" good, but 's disadvantage is quite strong.

-1. Don't bring political s*** in here man. We already have enough with 'Dr.Mario's recovery' and 'who Link beats'

 

[Antonykun]

I leave for a day an Thinkaman has already made CCI 2.0 his playground
I'm fine with this though
every time people say Roy is easy to gimp i get triggered because i have such a hard time edgegaurding him with Villager (not Swordfighter though Counter is a precious cinnamon roll against Blazer and down air down air beats/trades with every move in smash)

 

[Mario766]

For an ostensible top-tier, we don't see much of Fox in bracket. Can anybody tell me why that is?

Is it because the better Fox mains don't go to that many tourneys (for example, Ike isn't top-tier, but he gets good representation because he has a few dedicated mains that regularly go to things and do well)? Does he have some kind of fatal matchup that nobody wants to go in for (pretty much impossible if he's that good a character)? Is he just not that popular?

The big Fox players go to very little. Ksev doesn't travel. Megafox got 13th at TBH5 with Ksev losing early in top 32 to Fatality.

Big Fox players:
Larry
Megafox

???

Larry hasn't been to a national since EVO *Paragon 9th place* and he's known for using a lot of secondaries.
Megafox went to TBH5 and had a strong running but was the only Fox to do so.

He's popular outside of top level play, but he doesn't have that top level rep.

Ike was the same way until after Paragon. Ryo didn't travel, Ryuga STILL doesn't travel due to school and San has work which puts him in a rough position to come to anything. Ryo is now traveling with MVG and will be going to more things including Frame Perfect and TGC. The Ike boys had the talent, they just didn't come to anything till now.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't... don't ever go to the SmashWiki for character analysis. Like, EVER.

You know I wasn't actually saying it was right... right? Sarcasm's hard to detect sometimes, sorry?

Here's another egregious neglection: absolutely no mention of Pac-Jump's stage utility.

Pretty sure if you nerf a characters frame data across the board restrict their movement options and mix up game they're going to be a worse character.

Well everybody lost wavedashing and double jump cancelling, then lost airdodging into the ground from Brawl so I guess everybody's worse. Besides, Mewtwo got plenty more movement options to replace them, even if they aren't as good offensively as they are defensively. And is it just me, or is frame data for characters in this game generally worse than in Melee?

I leave for a day an Thinkaman has already made CCI 2.0 his playground
I'm fine with this though
every time people say Roy is easy to gimp i get triggered because i have such a hard time edgegaurding him with Villager (not Swordfighter though Counter is a precious cinnamon roll against Blazer and down air down air beats/trades with every move in smash)

Yeah, I mean... his recovery is a lot more flexible than is given credit for with it's large angling. He's vulnerable without his second jump but far from helpless, and he can often avoid using it unless he's sent very far away and/or at a low angle. Rather similar to Doc's except faster and with admittedly fewer mixup options.

 

[Mario766]

I leave for a day an Thinkaman has already made CCI 2.0 his playground
I'm fine with this though
every time people say Roy is easy to gimp i get triggered because i have such a hard time edgegaurding him with Villager (not Swordfighter though Counter is a precious cinnamon roll against Blazer and down air down air beats/trades with every move in smash)

Walk-off N-Air, B-Air, 2 frame F-Smash?

Seems rather simple for Villager. Roy is vulnerable above him and his recovery is rather slow. It's one of the easier recoveries to hit.

 

[Wintropy]

every time people say Roy is easy to gimp i get triggered because i have such a hard time edgegaurding him with Villager (not Swordfighter though Counter is a precious cinnamon roll against Blazer and down air down air beats/trades with every move in smash)

I'm inclined to agree, Roy has never struck me as free off-stage. Every time I try to go to challenge him, I get bopped by invincible f5 startup disjoint. Maybe I'm just not using my own disjoints right, but short of sniping him from a distance, I don't know how to correctly challenge it.

 

[Vipermoon]

I consider Ksev a "Big Fox Player." He did beat Shofu and Megafox at SFW.

The big Fox players go to very little. Ksev doesn't travel. Megafox got 13th at TBH5 with Ksev losing early in top 32 to Fatality.

Big Fox players:
Larry
Megafox

???

Larry hasn't been to a national since EVO *Paragon 9th place* and he's known for using a lot of secondaries.
Megafox went to TBH5 and had a strong running but was the only Fox to do so.

He's popular outside of top level play, but he doesn't have that top level rep.

 

[Mario766]

uhh...Roy has no invincible moves in the air.

Sorry to tell you this, but Blazer is free.

Vipermoon Big in terms of national results. MI stays in their mitten, unfortunately.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm inclined to agree, Roy has never struck me as free off-stage. Every time I try to go to challenge him, I get bopped by invincible f5 startup disjoint. Maybe I'm just not using my own disjoints right, but short of sniping him from a distance, I don't know how to correctly challenge it.

The hitbox on blazer is largely horizontal.

Edit: Wait, no, ment to right more... Post got ate.

 

[Wintropy]

uhh...Roy has no invincible moves in the air.

Sorry to tell you this, but Blazer is free.

Doesn't Blazer have super armour on startup? Either that or everything I've ever known about the move is wrong, and I've fought Roy a hell of a lot in recent times.

Doesn't matter either way. The Roy players I know have become too adept at using it as a mixup themselves. The efficacy of a tool doesn't matter if the player can use it well. It's the kind of thing Roy players need to be good at, since I agree he's otherwise weak as warm dishwater off-stage.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think it has super armor on the ground. and all the hits in the air for blazer do 13%, on the ground it's 16%. i think the concept is that it's a straight up better move on the ground.

 

[meleebrawler]

uhh...Roy has no invincible moves in the air.

Sorry to tell you this, but Blazer is free.

Vipermoon Big in terms of national results. MI stays in their mitten, unfortunately.

Only if you manage to read when, or even if since his airspeed is often enough to get him close to the stage without it, he decides to use it. Roy's recovery isn't great especially if he has to use his double jump but far from one of the worse.

Doesn't Blazer have super armour on startup? Either that or everything I've ever known about the move is wrong, and I've fought Roy a hell of a lot in recent times.

Doesn't matter either way. The Roy players I know have become too adept at using it as a mixup themselves. The efficacy of a tool doesn't matter if the player can use it well. It's the kind of thing Roy players need to be good at, since I agree he's otherwise weak as warm dishwater off-stage.

Blazer only has invincibility and armour (and boosted power) when used from the ground. Probably done as a callback to Roy's weak aerial game in Melee.

 

[Antonykun]

Walk-off N-Air, B-Air, 2 frame F-Smash?

Seems rather simple for Villager. Roy is vulnerable above him and his recovery is rather slow. It's one of the easier recoveries to hit.

The problem with those is that Roy can just dip down to avoid slingshots and blazer and that move's disjointed nature makes everything that isn't 3 turnip d-air bound to fail and three turnips might not even get the trade and since its a rising hitbox he can easily destroy f-smash.

Like there's times where i feel like i should just plant a tree as its much easier to beat out his ledge options

 

[Lavani]

Doesn't Blazer have super armour on startup? Either that or everything I've ever known about the move is wrong, and I've fought Roy a hell of a lot in recent times.

Doesn't matter either way. The Roy players I know have become too adept at using it as a mixup themselves. The efficacy of a tool doesn't matter if the player can use it well. It's the kind of thing Roy players need to be good at, since I agree he's otherwise weak as warm dishwater off-stage.

It's frame 9, and has super armor frame 4~10 on the ground but no super armor in the air, and no invincibility ever.

 

[Wintropy]

Blazer only has invincibility and armour (and boosted power) when used from the ground. Probably done as a callback to Roy's weak aerial game in Melee.

Okay, then I'm just stupid and the Roys I fight know it.

Thanks for clearing that up, I've never been able to get a precise answer. Still intrigued that Flare Blade -> Blazer is a thing, but I guess if you're going to challenge Flare Blade for any reason, you deserve whatever punishment you get.

EDIT: Fought a good Yoshi earlier, I want to talk about Yoshi for a bit. What exactly holds him back from being one of the dominant characters in the meta? I've heard much ado about it and never received a concrete response, just a hodge-podge of "his advantage is bad" and "his frame data is weak" (hell, I don't even know if either of these are true, just going by what I can remember). I know he isn't a top-tier super-viable threat or anything, but can somebody tell me what he does and doesn't do well to save me a big headache?

Thanks~ ;3

 

[Mario766]

The ways you can angle Blazer are...limited. You either go up or you go at the slanted angle Most of the time you kinda just plant yourself in the way and throw something at him.

At least, that's how Ryo does it even without counter. Once you hit him once, he's done.

 

[meleebrawler]

Okay, then I'm just stupid and the Roys I fight know it.

Thanks for clearing that up, I've never been able to get a precise answer. Still intrigued that Flare Blade -> Blazer is a thing, but I guess if you're going to challenge Flare Blade for any reason, you deserve whatever punishment you get.

EDIT: Fought a good Yoshi earlier, I want to talk about Yoshi for a bit. What exactly holds him back from being one of the dominant characters in the meta? I've heard much ado about it and never received a concrete response, just a hodge-podge of "his advantage is bad" and "his frame data is weak" (hell, I don't even know if either of these are true, just going by what I can remember). I know he isn't a top-tier super-viable threat or anything, but can somebody tell me what he does and doesn't do well to save me a big headache?

Thanks~ ;3

The quick and dirty story is that he lacks reliable kill setups against shield and his moves, although made somewhat safer by his mobility aren't all that difficult to challenge since they don't have much disjoint. His eggs are also not too difficult to powershield.