Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[san.]

Gunner has enough counterplay with being able to destroy her projectiles where she should still be fine even at 0/0. Gunner's projectiles are generally around the same or 1-2 frames safer on shield using the new formula for projectiles, while others can pressure her defense much better now without getting immediately punished.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy should still be considered a solid Top Tier character. Been saying this for about... 4 patches tho...

 

[wedl!!]

No... that's impossible.

Diddy can't kill. Neutral, mobility, item pressure, grab game and damage racking don't matter if you don't have braindead kill setups, right??

 

[TriTails]

Yea. Like the others said, Luigi going from 'I grab you at 110% and you're dead' to 'You're at 150%. What the hell am I supposed to kill you with' is very much of a deal. A big one.

What baffles me, however, that they manage to leave Sheik alone with just another slap to F-air damage for the ****ing third time, indirectly buffed ZSS and Ryu, left other top and high tiers that were better then him alone, but they just nerfed his D-throw... and... nothing to compensate.

I can safely say Rosa and Sheik destroy us now. Greninja may as well rise up to 65:35 or worse. Same goes for Mega Man.

Mr.SakuraiWhy.gif

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I'm a bit late on this topic, but how can Greninja not be considered solo viable when he only has a 65-35 MU vs Sheik. IIRC, wasn't Falco in Brawl solo viable despite having a 75-25 MU vs Ice Climbers?

 

[Zannabluke]

Yea. Like the others said, Luigi going from 'I grab you at 110% and you're dead' to 'You're at 150%. What the hell am I supposed to kill you with' is very much of a deal. A big one.

What baffles me, however, that they manage to leave Sheik alone with just another slap to F-air damage for the ****ing third time, indirectly buffed ZSS and Ryu, left other top and high tiers that were better then him alone, but they just nerfed his D-throw... and... nothing to compensate.

I can safely say Rosa and Sheik destroy us now. Greninja may as well rise up to 65:35 or worse. Same goes for Mega Man.

Mr.SakuraiWhy.gif

what are you talking about? they buffed his dsmash and his dair is now basically melee falco's

 

[Diddy Kong]

No... that's impossible.

Diddy can't kill. Neutral, mobility, item pressure, grab game and damage racking don't matter if you don't have braindead kill setups, right??

Except Banana > F Smash and D Tilt > U Smash actually kind of work.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I'm a bit late on this topic, but how can Greninja not be considered solo viable when he only has a 65-35 MU vs Sheik. IIRC, wasn't Falco in Brawl solo viable despite having a 75-25 MU vs Ice Climbers?

idk man and brawl Falco had two really bad MU's with Pikachu and ice climbers.

 

[TriTails]

Yep. His D-smash went from killing at like 168% to like 158% on the front hit (Just a rough measuring. I doubt +5 growth is going to do something stupid. Haven't noticed much differences). D-air was buffed? Great! Now we can chain D-air spike better out of D-thr- Oh s***. Now we can't do ****s anymore and we can't risk too much going off-stage because we have the second slowest airspeed and if we are taken away from our double jump we are basically dead.

Meanwhile. We lose all of our kill setups, which are basically pillars of our viability, got Cyclone nerfed, even if we can catch them midair, they can just SDI down because hitlag modifier. Even if they manage to be launched the lowered growth usually kicks in.

 

[DanGR]

Even the argument that she's overrated hasn't proven true though, especially not recently. Three different Rosalina players placing top 5 at huge international tourneys within one or two months is ridiculous. And if we neglect the probably entirely insignificant usage of secondary characters in case of dabuz and Ray then we're essentially talking about solo-achievements here.

That's nearly on par with ZSS in terms of results and not that far off of Sheik either.

There's no denying her results are top tier. It's the theory that gets me.
(This is all pre-patch matchups. Pikachu and ZSS, among others, got buffed while Rosa got nerfed.)

Let's look at the most recent national.

Rayquaza plays 3 Sheiks and 1 ZSS in top 32.
Dabuz plays an Ike, 1 Pikachu, 2 Sheiks and 1 ZSS in top 32.
Abadango uses Rosa at least against 1 Fox, 1 Sonic. I didn't get to watch his other sets yet.

You'd think that Rosa vs Sheik is pretty even if you base it on results. I think the matchup is way more difficult for the Sheik player to comprehend and play out though. You can't even slightly miss-space on Rosa's shield because her grab range is deceptively big. You have to be knowledgeable enough about Luma to avoid him during your combos, play around him when being pressured, know the most efficient ways to kills him, know when you can grab and throw Rosalina, blah blah. There's more room for technical mistakes on the Sheik side of things, and Rosa's punishes can be pretty huge. Near perfect play Sheik > Rosa.

She loses hard to ZSS. Despite nearly unanimously being considered the 2nd best character, there was 1 national (let alone regional) level ZSS at the tournament.

I hear from many good Rosas that she loses hard to Pikachu as well. (I seem to be the only one who thinks it's closer to a slight disadvantage or evenish.) Dabuz rocked ESAM. No other way to put it. If it's in Pikachu's favor like people seem to think, this was just another case of Dabuz having way more matchup knowledge than his opponent. I don't really know though.

I'm interested in what all the Ike players that visit this thread have to say about the Ryuga/Dabuz matches. Also did abadango go Rosa vs you San? @San @Nidtendofreak

Once again, the Rosa players dodge top level Wario, Falcon, MK, Marth, Olimar, *continued list of underplayed characters that beat Rosa*.

 

[wedl!!]

I was being sarcastic.

Also, Icies were way less common until late into Brawl's life, meanwhile Sheik is the most common character and you're bound to come across one at least once in bracket. IMO the idea that Greninja/Sheik is nearly unwinnable is an exaggeration because MU's aren't ridiculously one-sided in this game like they were before. Not to say it isn't still awful.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Seriously, ZeRo used Diddy so much and so effectively lately, how come he's not criminaly underrated?

 

[C0rvus]

Did the patch help Greninja at all? His out of shield game has always been a weak point, and that likely got even worse. Did any of his important moves get safer on shield? What about Shuriken? He's always been on the fringe of high tier, but Sheik being so common in tournament hurts his presence quite a bit.

 

[Nu~]

Seriously, ZeRo used Diddy so much and so effectively lately, how come he's not criminaly underrated?

Who is underrating Diddy Kong? lol

The character isn't underrated, he just simply isn't a top 5 threat.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Who is underrating Diddy Kong? lol

The character isn't underrated, he just simply isn't a top 5 threat.

Am pretty sure that he's at least as viable as Fox, Mario and Sonic. His overall matchup spread actually being better than most Top Tier characters, as well as his matchup vs Sheik probably being one of the best in the game. There's not one character that I feel that actually solidly beats him 60-40.

 

[Ghostbone]

Am pretty sure that he's at least as viable as Fox, Mario and Sonic. His overall matchup spread actually being better than most Top Tier characters, as well as his matchup vs Sheik probably being one of the best in the game. There's not one character that I feel that actually solidly beats him 60-40.

Rosalina wrecks him pretty hard tbh.

Compared to the other 3, opinions will differ, but yea they're all basically in the same clump with Pikachu below Sheik/ZSS/Rosa.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Yea. Like the others said, Luigi going from 'I grab you at 110% and you're dead' to 'You're at 150%. What the hell am I supposed to kill you with' is very much of a deal. A big one.

What baffles me, however, that they manage to leave Sheik alone with just another slap to F-air damage for the ****ing third time, indirectly buffed ZSS and Ryu, left other top and high tiers that were better then him alone, but they just nerfed his D-throw... and... nothing to compensate.

I can safely say Rosa and Sheik destroy us now. Greninja may as well rise up to 65:35 or worse. Same goes for Mega Man.

Mr.SakuraiWhy.gif

Just saying, but Sheik Fair was never nerfed a third time, the move still does the same amount of damage lol. She was completely untouched in non-customs.

 

[FullMoon]

TriTails Something I wanted to ask you about, does the increase in shieldstun mean that Luigi gets shieldpushed significantly more now before he can act out of shield?

 

[Mario766]

Ryuga didn't get to adapt to Dabuz' different play style compared to Rayquaza, who is his training partner.

Ike destroys Rosa outside of top level though.

It isn't even funny.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It's been long established that Diddy is still a threat. It's hard to make Diddy bad in any Smash game. He's great by design.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy is a top threat. Just probably the hardest character to play between the Top5 characters right now.
I think the Top5 atm are Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Diddy and Sonic right now. But there are characters right behind them that are pretty close.
This game is getting more and more balanced. I love it.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I'm not sure why people think loses to when Dabuz vs Esam at CEO went to last hit last stock with Pikachu winning with a up-smash and then at Big House; Dabuz precedes to 3-0 Esam in Top 32.

Edit: In fact Rosalina is looking pretty strong, I mean both Rayquaza and Dabuz got eliminated only by and; both considered to have a winning MU against her (ZSS has it better though) and both considered being Number 1 and 2 respectively. Even Abadango used Rosalina against 6WX to eliminate him from bracket.

 

[Nu~]

Diddy is a top threat. Just probably the hardest character to play between the Top5 characters right now.
I think the Top5 atm are Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Diddy and Sonic right now. But there are characters right behind them that are pretty close.
This game is getting more and more balanced. I love it.

Why wouldn't fox be in top 5 before Diddy?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not sure why people think loses to when Dabuz vs Esam at CEO went to last hit last stock with Pikachu winning with a up-smash and then at Big House; Dabuz precedes to 3-0 Esam in Top 32.

Edit: In fact Rosalina is looking pretty strong, I mean both Rayquaza and Dabuz got eliminated only by and; both considered to have a winning MU against her (ZSS has it better though) and both considered being Number 1 and 2 respectively. Even Abadango used Rosalina against 6WX to eliminate him from bracket.

To be fair, 1.1.1's shield changes basically wrote a gushing love letter to Pikachu AFAIK, while Rosalina's benefit/detriment due to the same is still kind of questionable. So regardless of the theory/results before, the mechanical changes since then have definitely been in Pikachu's favor.

 

[Ffamran]

what are you talking about? they buffed his dsmash and his dair is now basically melee falco's

The irony that Luigi's Down Smash was always a good move, but nobody really bothered to use it. It's a frame 6, 14-5% move you can act out at frame 38. Luigi's Down Smash has the same recovery as Meta Knight's and lower recovery than the Pits, Little Mac, Rosalina, Peach, and Zelda who arguably have the best Down Smashes in terms of utility. They might not kill well except for Little Mac's, but they are pretty much the safest cover around and get off me moves on the ground. Except for Little Mac (frame 10), none of them are above frame 7 and Meta Knight's is frame 4. Ryu and ROB would count too if Ryu hit behind him, but it's based off of his cr. HK? which doesn't hit behind him because most 2D fighters don't have a lot of moves, especially normals, hitting both sides and ROB's kind of iffy at times. Also, Sheik's Down Smash is pitiful...

Also, hell no. Nothing is close to the brokenness that is Melee Falco or even Brawl Falco's Dair. Melee Falco's Dair wasn't even considered a spike due to programming error and who has a frame 5 spike with about 15 active frames, 5-24, in this game? Nobody. Brawl Falco's only spiked at frame 5-7, but still had 14 active frames for the late hit, 8-21. That's a total of 16 active frames. The closest Luigi's got is landing lag which is 20 to Melee Falco's 18 and Brawl Falco's 19.

Luigi's Dair spikes at frame 10 and has a late hit at frames 11-14. Only 5 total active frames with only 1 active frame for a spike. Luigi's Dair has more in line with the Pits except Luigi has a more reliable way to set his up while the Pits are more likely to be able to use their Dairs deeper off stage without major repercussions.

Luigi's Dair is only good because outside of Fox, Peach, (Dr.) Mario?, Lucario, the Pits, and maybe Kirby's, everyone's Dair plain sucks as spikes, aerials, or even just moves. Most Dairs are probably above - random number here - frame 14 contrast that to most every other aerial probably being below frame 10, especially with Nair. Zelda's Dair would have had an honorary mention if her other aerials weren't so situational which sucks since Zelda has a Dair that will spike no matter what - difference is the clean hit is a clean spike and the late hit is a soft spike. You're going get spiked or gimped and will likely die against her, but unfortunately... Zelda's bane is her existence.

In general, I think Dairs are pretty much the most useless moves for most characters. Most often than not, Dairs are designed to be situational moves, spikes. When a spike like Melee or Brawl Falco and Marth come up, those really shine because everything else sucks. When Dairs aren't highly situational like Fox, Lucario, and Peach's show up, it's made even worse for everyone else. You could for instance, replace Falco, Palutena, or even Luigi with his good relative to everyone's Dair with a taco kick - don't question the name - and they would do so much better with a cross-up aerial than a spike. You do know how stupid it would be to have a low-angled kick that hits behind you, right? The fact Falco, Palutena, and Luigi have the most dangerous "back moves" would make it even stupider if they could jump over and make you guess which of their, basically, Bairs they will use.

 

[Yikarur]

Why wouldn't fox be in top 5 before Diddy?

the Fox hype is over. Fox is definitely a Top tier character, but he has clear (and abusable) weaknesses. I don't think Fox is enough to be considered a Top5 character right now.

 

[Shaya]

I very much foresee Luigi getting compensation buffs for a while to come anyway.
It's pretty obvious what they wanted to get rid of. You know, the simple 1 dimensional strategies that anyone on for glory can copy and beat 95% of people on it. The complete lack of real universal counter play to the combination of dash grab and fireballs.

I've made this argument before for Diddy, a rehash:
Before his nerfs/changes, he was a character with only 3 used moves out of 20odd. Dash Grab, Up Air, Forward Air; yes down tilt, banana plucking, whatever, but for the most part that character that was once no.1 didn't need to do more than 3 moves to win every match up in the game.
There is no way that Sakurai and the balance team are going to look at a character they've developed to focus around his banana game play and traps should be able to win using moves and strategies that have NOTHING to do with his design.
Now more of his moves are used, because they HAVE TO BE USED. Back Air is probably Diddy's strongest aerial at this stage; up tilt and down tilt see their usages, up smash is the later percent kill option, he no longer can win with just his grab game so he needs to use bananas (which brings inherent risk).

Luigi won games with just two moves; dash grab and fireball. Every "mistake" (i.e. attempting a hard option to get past the simple rhythm of buffered dash grabs/fire balls) would net you 30%, and the fourth mistake was your stock. Where was the room or opportunity for Luigi to make a mistake? Messing up cyclone on you and you falling out of it... much design, very game play.

They've taken away abusive abilities from characters throughout the patch cycle, and relying on an abusive character for competitive/tournament play when patches are a thing is your fault, to be quite honest. Yes his niche/point of viability was this one stupid thing, and it could've been on any other character and they would've still felt entitled to it.
I think good [or realistically, all] characters are, to a certain extent, entitled to be good as long as they do not produce abusive game play interactions; if taking away from 1 or 2 moves out of their 20-odd is enough to make them trash, they weren't healthy for the game and are entitled only to being compensated in the future if necessary (has Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, Falcon or Sonic really needed compensation? Not really, no [they have gotten some move fixes along the way though]).

Where will they go with Luigi in the future? Not sure, but he still has an amazingly consistent game plan against a hyper majority of the cast that puts him at advantage a lot of the time. The focus for him assuming nothing else happens will be killing by 100%, and that would require heavy implementation of his up b (barely used at all) and for looking for locks from his tilts, jab and fireballs.

Just about every character in the cast is happy about Luigi being nerfed. Nearly every tournament attending player is happy about Luigi being nerfed.
If we can all agree he no longer has something bat**** stupid going for him that makes the game look poor/bad at most levels of play, then we can all look forward to seeing him develop his kit otherwise + likely getting some love in the future.

 

[Ffamran]

One last "Luigi-related fix" would be not making rapid jabs be interrupted when you try to use them. Is this a Falco and previously a Fox only problem? Has any Kirby, Pit, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Robin, Rosalina, Greninja, Duck Hunt, Diddy, Bowser Jr., Triple D, Mewtwo, Palutena, Little Mac, and Mr. Game & Watch had the displeasure of using a jab only to get frame 5 and below punished? I say Luigi since he's popular and his clean Nair is really strong like Yoshi's. It's kind of a not okay when a Mario or Fox do it, but when a Luigi or Yoshi do it, it can be a stock and a, "What the hell? Why!?" It's just ridiculous you can punish a basic, simple action like that.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

One last "Luigi-related fix" would be not making rapid jabs be interrupted when you try to use them. Is this a Falco and previously a Fox only problem? Has any Kirby, Pit, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Robin, Rosalina, Greninja, Duck Hunt, Diddy, Bowser Jr., Triple D, Mewtwo, Palutena, Little Mac, and Mr. Game & Watch had the displeasure of using a jab only to get frame 5 and below punished? I say Luigi since he's popular and his clean Nair is really strong like Yoshi's. It's kind of a not okay when a Mario or Fox do it, but when a Luigi or Yoshi do it, it can be a stock and a, "What the hell? Why!?" It's just ridiculous you can punish a basic, simple action like that.

Was using Luigi against a Flaco (back when I had a Luigi) and I spammed Nair out of Jab 2, but then his Jab 1 came out and Nair hits again on the second jab 2.
Falco's net reward on jab: Taking like 22%
It's hilarious.

 

[Green L]

The complete lack of real universal counter play to the combination of dash grab and fireballs.

There is counterplay. Spotdodge and perfect shield.

Luigi won games with just two moves; dash grab and fireball

That is definitely not true. I'm not seeing any national wins for luigi mains. When saying luigi needed to be nerfed, NO ONE took the luigi mains' skill in account. Only spamming fireballs and dash grab definitely is a sure guarantee to lose.
Luigi was definitely overrated. He wasn't even close to the best character in the game. Did anyone actually learn to exploit his crippling flaws or just whine about it until it worked?

 

[Shaya]

Brawl Falco and S4 Luigi are kinda similar now really.
Falco could take you to 60-80% from a grab, was insanely hard to trap or approach through lasers, his great CQC and his ability to side-b away.
Luigi doesn't have the same side-b away (but hey, what if you misfire and kill them? why not~), but both were known for their critical inability to force stocks.

Smash4 is different, confirmed KOs is pretty helpful. BUT, if a lot of characters still struggle to get in on and capitalize against Luigi, he's still likely going to have percent advantages and more opportunities given to punish with a kill move than the opposing character.
It could work out in the long run.

There is counterplay. Spotdodge and perfect shield.

That is definitely not true. I'm not seeing any national wins for luigi mains. When saying luigi needed to be nerfed, NO ONE took the luigi mains' skill in account. Only spamming fireballs and dash grab definitely is a sure guarantee to lose.
Luigi was definitely overrated. Did anyone actually learn to exploit his crippling flaws or just whine about it until it worked?

Response to this literally contained within the post you quoted. Bar a mention of "spot dodging and perfect shielding not being remotely useful against those tools".

 

[Ghostbone]

They've been steadily fixing rapid jabs afaik so they link properly (diddy, fox, maybe Robin early on? not too sure)

At least for characters who don't have a gentleman, having a non-functional rapid jab is pretty dumb (buff Sheik's jab please).

Also I wonder if they haven't nerfed Sheik (much) just because she basically uses her whole toolkit in a cohesive manner (especially with throws, b-throw/f-throw/d-throw all being used depending on %s and DI mixups)
The only truly obnoxious thing is uncharged needles continuously catching your landings at high %s (though ZeRo is the only Sheik I see abusing it really well)
I wonder if we'll see a nerf to uncharged needle start-up, it would be the most minor and sensible change imo.

 

[Nobie]

The shield research thread has discovered that projectiles seem to work off of a different (i.e. worse) shield stun formula. At the lowest levels of hit stun it's not so bad, but to compare, a 25% damage regular attack has 16 frames of stun, a projectile with the same 25% has 9 frames of stun.

Obviously that's a huge difference, and it's interesting to think who the winners and losers are here.

Losers: Players/characters who overly rely on projectiles to keep their opponents pinned down. Part of this I think is meant to tone down the prevalence of For Glory Links.

Winners: Players who have to deal with FG Link + Characters who have trouble getting in.

Luigi, of course, falls into both categories to an extent. His fireball is barely better, which means he hasn't gotten as much as others have, but now Luigi potentially won't just get his weak approach exploited by the likes of a Mega Man or a Samus. It's still a flaw of his character, but now it won't be quite so crippling, allowing for the Mega Man (or whoever) to still play their keepaway/zoning game, the Luigi to play their get in and combo game, and for neither side to be as polarized in their advantageous positions.

 

[Shaya]

They've been steadily fixing rapid jabs afaik so they link properly (diddy, fox, maybe Robin early on? not too sure)

At least for characters who don't have a gentleman, having a non-functional rapid jab is pretty dumb (buff Sheik's jab please).

Also I wonder if they haven't nerfed Sheik (much) just because she basically uses her whole toolkit in a cohesive manner (especially with throws, b-throw/f-throw/d-throw all being used depending on %s and DI mixups)
The only truly obnoxious thing is uncharged needles continuously catching your landings at high %s (though ZeRo is the only Sheik I see abusing it really well)
I wonder if we'll see a nerf to uncharged needle start-up, it would be the most minor and sensible change imo.

That's probably exactly what we want, every move on every character to have a use. Wouldn't be surprised if that's the general flow of what's been happening over all this time; they nerf a top tier, make another (or multiple) moves slightly better to increase their usability (Sheik: Down tilt damage nerf increased it's usability, feasibly Diddy's was as well).
I would say when it comes to Sheik the only such move is down smash... but even then the last stock of TBH5 was taken with a sheik down smash, lol. Down Air is pretty much a non-factor too but it still will come out (because she's a good character which a smart player may recognise the scenario it can be used to capitalize).

ZSS is quite close, every move can be used, just some like down tilt and forward smash are below average (or more closely, an alternative is generally always better; Choco is the only ZSS I know who uses forward smash).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Did anyone actually learn to exploit his crippling flaws or just whine about it until it worked?

Are you insinuating that Luigi was a well-designed, positive influence on Smash 4?
If so, know this:
Having a weakness =/= Being balanced

 

[Green L]

Yea. Like the others said, Luigi going from 'I grab you at 110% and you're dead' to 'You're at 150%. What the hell am I supposed to kill you with' is very much of a deal. A big one.

This times a million. I tried giving luigi another go and most of my matches took forever and my opponents were in the 150 range and above. My opponents usually stood in the middle of the stage so they'll survive luigi's back throw and luigi's too slow to spam up smashes and succeed

 

[Ghostbone]

Super situational moves that still have situations that you want to use them are fine. (Vinnie's killed M2K with Sheik dair spike, Sheik's dair can be used to trade with firefox and still get the spike, etc.)

ZSS has an obnoxious neutral game with nair since it combos into everything, is disjointed and safe on shield, idk if it should be nerfed though. (well I don't think she needs nerfs, but idk how the balance team feels)

 

[FullMoon]

Was using Luigi against a Flaco (back when I had a Luigi) and I spammed Nair out of Jab 2, but then his Jab 1 came out and Nair hits again on the second jab 2.
Falco's net reward on jab: Taking like 22%
It's hilarious.

That has happened with me when using Greninja's jab as well, it's super annoying

 

[Shog]

The shield research thread has discovered that projectiles seem to work off of a different (i.e. worse) shield stun formula. At the lowest levels of hit stun it's not so bad, but to compare, a 25% damage regular attack has 16 frames of stun, a projectile with the same 25% has 9 frames of stun.
[...]

Are you sure that's true for every character? I played Samus a lot and got Shieldbrakes with Missile+Charge Shot(see Samus Boards for much better examples). Maybe it was an oversight so that Samus doesn't account for the "projectile stun". Thank you blessed Massivehero Oversight for this if its confirmed.

 

[Green L]

Having a weakness =/= Being balanced

Luigi had multiple weaknesses, as in plural. It's the player's fault for not exploiting them