Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

It's more or less useless to talk about who is the most difficult/easy character to master because at a high enough level, people can and often do get punished for almost everything that isn't totally safe, and there's not that many things in this game that are totally safe. In the same way that someone can tell me Pit's buttons have to be used thoughtfully because they are punishable, I can tell you that Luigi, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, etc. have the same problem.

At that point, you can start telling the difference between the good players and the great players.

 

[Ghostbone]

's nair and uair are such good anti-airs omg... if only they had good hitboxes. am i allowed to talk about that with better functioning hitboxes would actually be a decent threat again or

Up-air's hitbox is pretty good lol.

All of her hitboxes are fine (well except jab missing tiny characters) tbh. Just not dumb like rosalina or yoshi or something.

 

[Ffamran]

Wii Fit Trainer also has partial invincibility on her jab 1 and jab 2 and invincibility on her Up Smash. That's pretty good when her jab can be repeated and used sort of like a poke... I'm noticing a trend of Up Smashes being invincible in some way... Can we make Fox and Falco's invincible on their legs? I mean, they have prosthetic metal legs. If Roy's arm can be invincible for his Up Smash, then Fox and Falco's metal legs definitely should be too.

 

[FullMoon]

Except give him an OoS option that hits all around him. I wouldn't actually touch the damage on nair just make it 4 frames or something like that. I think a faster nair would improve his combo game.

How.

While you're using N-Air you're going to land. Making it faster doesn't change that, you're still gonna have to land especially considering the move's end lag.

So by making Greninja's N-Air come out faster you do nothing to his combo games because you're still gonna have to go through landing lag before being able to extend the combo, most combos with N-Air are with grounded moves.

Making N-Air faster would just give a combo breaker move which by itself is great but really.

You want to give Greninja's N-Air a 4 frame start-up. Making a move that already connects with most of his other moves and results in very damaging combos, is disjointed, has 12 frames of landing lag, deals 11% and also starts footstool combos also a combo breaker ability and an OoS option?

Best N-Air in the game confirmed?

 

[C0rvus]

I thought @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY was referring to Mewtwo's nair? A faster nair would be a great help to Mewtwo, granting him a better OoS move and combo tool.

 

[Kwinston]

I'm sure that by now you have heard of that Mexican smash player named LEO(Spelled in all caps because that is the way it was spelled in the bracket). He is only 14 years old and he already pretty much destroyed Mr. R in a tournament. Doing so gave him a pretty big head, so now he is out here calling out Zero and claiming he can 2 stock him! Based on his performance, do any of you think that LEO has much of a chance to beat Zero? Honestly, I thought that in the last game of the set, Mr. R was playing well below his usual standard. I mean, when taking away his first stock in the last game, Mr. R barely even DI'd! But tell me what you think. Also, tell me what you think of Metaknight now in the current meta(knight)game. What tier do you think he would be if everyone played him the way LEO did?

 

[Ikes]

ive been wondering, how come windy hill zone isnt a counterpick when duck hunt is? it doesnt have any real hazards except for the upside down springs but those are very easily avoidable, much like ANOTHER counterpick stage that has hazards; looking at you, halberd. Sure the springs come and go but so does the dog on duck hunt. Is it the fact that it's got weird gravity? that makes sense, though it seems like it would be pretty easy to get used to. is it the fact that it encourages camping? Duck hunt does the same thing.

I'm just not understanding the entire reasoning, Windy Hill Zone has the same things other legal counterpick stages have bar the odd gravity gimmick which is pretty easily compensated for since its more or less similar to how lylat cruise effects projectiles (YET ANOTHER legal stage) albeit it's stationary.

maybe it's too big? I dunno.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Size and springs near the blastzones.

 

[Smog Frog]

nair is already a good combo tool. it links from and to stuff. dtilt->nair->fair/bair, falling uair->nair->fair/bair, even just raw nairs lead into other aerials for 20+ damage.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Size and springs near the blastzones.

Don't forget it can spike you too.

 

[RayNoire]

Just want to point out that if Mewtwo's Nair matched the animation, it would already have frame 4 or 5 startup.

 

[Nu~]

ive been wondering, how come windy hill zone isnt a counterpick when duck hunt is? it doesnt have any real hazards except for the upside down springs but those are very easily avoidable, much like ANOTHER counterpick stage that has hazards; looking at you, halberd. Sure the springs come and go but so does the dog on duck hunt. Is it the fact that it's got weird gravity? that makes sense, though it seems like it would be pretty easy to get used to. is it the fact that it encourages camping? Duck hunt does the same thing.

I'm just not understanding the entire reasoning, Windy Hill Zone has the same things other legal counterpick stages have bar the odd gravity gimmick which is pretty easily compensated for since its more or less similar to how lylat cruise effects projectiles (YET ANOTHER legal stage) albeit it's stationary.

maybe it's too big? I dunno.

Camping until your eyes bleed: the stage

 

[Shaya]

I'm sure we have multiple threads dedicated to stage discussions. This is the character or at the least "tournament" related discussion thread.

No need to derail a thread here by non-stage specialists when you can likely within 5 minutes find numerous fleshed out essays on the matter elsewhere.

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

A vid might help.

EDIT: The original thread got merged. I was originally replying to a thread about someone calling himself LEO taking down Mr. R with ease.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Here's an interesting topic:

What do you guys think might happen to future in the meta after Regi got top 16 with it.

Could we see a big usage of game and watch in tourneys resulting in him being more viable?

or

Will nothing change of our flat friend?

Let the debate begin.

 

[Nu~]

Here's an interesting topic:

What do you guys think might happen to after Regi got top 16 with it.

Could we see a big usage of game and watch in tourneys resulting in him get higher in people's tier list?

or

Will nothing change of our flat friend?

Let the debate begin.

You'll see an overpopulation of G&W on FG. That's about it imo

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Here's an interesting topic:

What do you guys think might happen to after Regi got top 16 with it.

Could we see a big usage of game and watch in tourneys resulting in him get higher in people's tier list?

or

Will nothing change of our flat friend?

Let the debate begin.

Why would one result change who people main? Maybe if he won then people would overhype him but someone getting top 16 with a character really won't change people's opinions about them. If that were the case there would be more Pac Mans than Falcons since Abadango got further than any Falcon at EVO.
Let the debate end.

 

[FullMoon]

Just want to point out that if Mewtwo's Nair matched the animation, it would already have frame 4 or 5 startup.

That makes me wonder about Greninja's. I know the hitbox comes later than the animation starts.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Why would one result change who people main? Maybe if he won then people would overhype him but someone getting top 16 with a character really won't change people's opinions about them. If that were the case there would be more Pac Mans than Falcons since Abadango got further than any Falcon at EVO.
Let the debate end.

I'm not saying that will get a huge increase in usage after getting top 16 in just one tourney because would be upsurd. However I do feel like this could raise g&w a bit. Theirs no denying that regi being able to reach top 16 for g&w was a pretty impressive feat though.

 

[Kwinston]

A vid might help.

Thanks, I thought so too, but I didn't know how to attach one.

 

[DD_]

I'm not saying that will get a huge increase in usage after getting top 16 in just one tourney because would be upsurd. However I do feel like this could raise g&w a bit. Theirs no denying that regi being able to reach top 16 for g&w was a pretty impressive feat though.

When something like this happens in other fighting games (A great example is when Gamerbee Took Adon far in his first EVO appearance, putting himself and the character on the map) the character becomes flavor of the month for a while but people settle back with their old characters for the most part. In regards to him being higher on tier lists and more relevant to the meta, this isn't something you can really confirm or deny after one solid appearance. In the Gamerbee example it turned out Adon as a solid pick in the end but that was not clear cut until there was a lot more data and a lot more top 8 appearances from the character.

Zero has however been giving Game and Watch his praises of late so it does looks like the flavor of the month will hold.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Maybe it's me, but for some reason, I'm tempted to tell everyone to hold off on analysis or debating of characters until we get info that patches are no more a thing or aren't a bimonthly ****fest.

Like it isn't odd that characters that people for some reason or another haven't seen their strengths expose themselves. In other words wanting to create debate for a perceived weak character that miraculously gained speed after one result. Also, this holds for regions too as you don't know how much you know see people keep talking about how strong the Mexican region. It maybe strong, but why all the attention now?

 

[Antonykun]

Maybe it's me, but for some reason, I'm tempted to tell everyone to hold off on analysis or debating of characters until we get info that patches are no more a thing or aren't a bimonthly ****fest.

Like it isn't odd that characters that people for some reason or another haven't seen their strengths expose themselves. In other words wanting to create debate for a perceived weak character that miraculously gained speed after one result. Also, this holds for regions too as you don't know how much you know see people keep talking about how strong the Mexican region. It maybe strong, but why all the attention now?

to be completely honest the patches are incredibly conservative very few characters are relevant because of patches hell even some of the biggest winners (Swordfighter comes to mind) aren't even that good despite getting a bucketload of buffs and out side of Diddy not being the one true god of Smash 4 no characters became irrelevant because of Nerfs (Greninja became less than relevant because people realized how awkward he is and decided to blame it on the patches) Characters are going to stay fundamentally the same in Smash 4 unless a character gets an uncharacteristically large buff/nerf i meam things like Ike's Quick Draw auto canelling from very low to the ground to function like a pseudo air dash levels of large

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Maybe it's me, but for some reason, I'm tempted to tell everyone to hold off on analysis or debating of characters until we get info that patches are no more a thing or aren't a bimonthly ****fest.

Like it isn't odd that characters that people for some reason or another haven't seen their strengths expose themselves. In other words wanting to create debate for a perceived weak character that miraculously gained speed after one result. Also, this holds for regions too as you don't know how much you know see people keep talking about how strong the Mexican region. It maybe strong, but why all the attention now?

The problem with that is last time they said they were done patching the game (1.0.4) it was complete bull****. So we'll never really know for sure. And I've noticed we get a lot more of "endlag of forward tilt angled up reduced by one frame" changes than "**** it, let's give Charizard a throw that kills at 90%" changes. So there wouldn't be a point in holding off on analysis. For now we know for sure that patches are still a thing because of the smash ballot, and that ends in October, so god knows when that DLC will come out.

 

[LancerStaff]

The problem with that is last time they said they were done patching the game (1.0.4) it was complete bull****. So we'll never really know for sure. And I've noticed we get a lot more of "endlag of forward tilt angled up reduced by one frame" changes than "**** it, let's give Charizard a throw that kills at 90%" changes. So there wouldn't be a point in holding off on analysis. For now we know for sure that patches are still a thing because of the smash ballot, and that ends in October, so god knows when that DLC will come out.

Actually, the Smashboards writers are who to blame the bull**** on. The article was edited like a day after.

 

[Chez G.]

I don't know...that 0-to-death combo near the 7:50 mark was pretty sweet. As a MK main, I am proud.

Can he beat ZeRo though? Probably not. There was some lack of using Mach Tornado, for example, which I find to be a good edgeguarding move and combo finisher. But that's just me. I would love to see an upset.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Actually, the Smashboards writers are who to blame the bull**** on. The article was edited like a day after.

When will the lies end? My bad.

 

[C0rvus]

Game and Watch is still very light and pretty linear. Good throw combos to high percent. Does he have any approach options? I've heard GIMR say he has no way to approach Peach before. That implies to me that he is lacking in that regard in general, as I don't think that Peach is that hard to approach relatively speaking. Any Game and Watch mains want to weigh in on that?

 

[Illuminose]

Game & Watch's approaches aren't too bad. His dash grab is fine and his dash attack is a legitimate mixup because it lingers and crosses up shields if you space it correctly. You can also space with back airs somewhat effectively though it's not necessarily your best option when compared to your ground game.

The thing with G&W to me is almost Luigi-esque in the sense that he's very hard to count out. No character with that much reward off throws can really be counted out, and the potential crazy reward of dthrow 9 is something that can easily turn the tides. It's obviously not the same thing but that's kinda what G&W reminds me of.

 

[DanGR]

G&W's ability to approach

That metric isn't exactly... useful.

 

[T4ylor]

I'd put Meta Knight in top 10. I've had him up there for months. His match up spread is pretty even all around, but boasts a good match up against RosaLuma and goes at least even against Sheik. And nah, he wouldn't be able to beat ZeRo. Maybe his Sheik, but his Diddy's better than that and is better for this match up.

 

[Speed Boost]

Game and Watch is still very light and pretty linear. Good throw combos to high percent. Does he have any approach options? I've heard GIMR say he has no way to approach Peach before. That implies to me that he is lacking in that regard in general, as I don't think that Peach is that hard to approach relatively speaking. Any Game and Watch mains want to weigh in on that?

He can space FAir on shield, dash attack, dash grab, the usual fundamentals. He doesn't have an approach option that voids the neutral(Luigi Fireballs, Pika QA, Sonic Spin Dash, etc.), but he has a good kit including medium range projectile. I would say he has average approach options when compared to the rest of the cast. His aerial mobility gives him good non-committal options out of SH.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Triple 2 stock with Meta Knight against Mr. R's Sheik was very impressive. MK is definitely underrated, but he's not top 5 like some people are jumping into saying.

 

[Chez G.]

I agree. This Leo guy may not be Top 5, but darn, that was a hype match! I mean, just look at my signature!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How.

While you're using N-Air you're going to land. Making it faster doesn't change that, you're still gonna have to land especially considering the move's end lag.

So by making Greninja's N-Air come out faster you do nothing to his combo games because you're still gonna have to go through landing lag before being able to extend the combo, most combos with N-Air are with grounded moves.

Making N-Air faster would just give a combo breaker move which by itself is great but really.

You want to give Greninja's N-Air a 4 frame start-up. Making a move that already connects with most of his other moves and results in very damaging combos, is disjointed, has 12 frames of landing lag, deals 11% and also starts footstool combos also a combo breaker ability and an OoS option?

Best N-Air in the game confirmed?

I think it'd give him more utilt combos and he'd probably get some sick platform stuff from it. Maybe even ffnair stuff also. It may become the best nair in the game but someone has to be the best.

I thought @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY was referring to Mewtwo's nair? A faster nair would be a great help to Mewtwo, granting him a better OoS move and combo tool.

I was talking about greninja. But mewtwo could use the change also.

 

[FullMoon]

I think it'd give him more utilt combos and he'd probably get some sick platform stuff from it. Maybe even ffnair stuff also. It may become the best nair in the game but someone has to be the best.

It wouldn't change a thing in regards to Up-Tilt and FFNair because changing the startup but not the landing lag would lead to Greninja getting the exact same follow-ups he could before.

N-Air -> Up-Tilt is already a thing anyway.

 

[Shaya]

mobility specs are pretty good.
His short hop air dodge is incredibly low to the ground + he can still act out before landing.
His full hop retreating aerials auto cancel / end before landing and are a lot harder to punish.
His grab game (i.e. down throw) is pretty solid, at worse you get up-b, at best you get 9s, up air at kill percent or buckets. In other words, stupid.
Dash to shield and his fox trot lengths are pretty solid. He also has an [near?] instant crouch animation.
Majority of his moves are disjointed, however many have sizable hurtbox extensions.
Nigh ungimpable recovery, will kill most characters for trying and can use those abilities to intercept recoveries for stocks in the opposing situation too.
Dash attack, dash grab, jab and now down tilt are all pretty solid ground moves, more than most characters have to play with (in fact it's virtually the same as Meta Knight, G&W just doesn't get the same consistent rewards as he does).

If he was more than featherweight he (common theme) would be kinda top/high tier. He can't really force kills yet he has a small list of very potent kill set ups. Him going for them would usually be a 50:50 for a lot of characters in getting punished but are worth still going for a lot of the time, in G&W's case him trading or losing the 50:50 tends to be too caustic to his success as he can't afford to make many, his disadvantage and difficulty of being combo'd isn't inherently amazing, his aerials are bad anti-juggles, and his up-b only helps on platformed stages or against those being over zealous in their follow up attempts.

If you have balls of fury and can take the heat in the proverbial kitchen of characters having kill throws outright or as confirms or fast long range moves that can kill him at sub 100% you can win [at] large regionals maybe even nationals with him.

--

although I've seemingly been anti-Ike hype (I was just being devil's advocate / FAIR / it's an ironic homage to the Meta Knight 20XV story), I definitely feel he's very strong overall and demands a lot of respect. One could consider him a mix between Marth fundamentals succeeding and a faster and disjointed Ganondorf. I think the results for him are going to start coming in.... that fair hitbox buff makes his combo/trap game almost trivial... jab is so much stronger now too.... if For Glory is anything to go by, he's a winbutton demon.

I think he isn't looking to have fantastic top tier match ups across the board (imo he could be dangerous for Mario, Luigi, Ness and maybe Sonic/Rosa/Pika), but I really don't know what's left for them to buff on Ike if anything other than his specials or end lag on smash attacks (which would be silly). Up Tilt now covers everything around him and reminds me of DA POWER of Snake [hitbox lasts for 3 more frames of his animation!!!]. And between that and his buffed forward and down tilt I wonder if there's any other character in the game with an argument for a better set of tilts... Falco maybe? Pikachu? DK? like... they're really fricken good.

Either way, Brawl Ike-level WiFi domination guaranteed.

 

[Mario766]

to be completely honest the patches are incredibly conservative very few characters are relevant because of patches hell even some of the biggest winners (Swordfighter comes to mind) aren't even that good despite getting a bucketload of buffs and out side of Diddy not being the one true god of Smash 4 no characters became irrelevant because of Nerfs (Greninja became less than relevant because people realized how awkward he is and decided to blame it on the patches) Characters are going to stay fundamentally the same in Smash 4 unless a character gets an uncharacteristically large buff/nerf i meam things like Ike's Quick Draw auto canelling from very low to the ground to function like a pseudo air dash levels of large

Quick Draw ALWAYS auto cancelled like that. It even had less endlag whenwhiffed in Brawl on the ground.

Also Sakurai is LOVING to buff Ike back to his Brawl state plus benefits from the Smash 4 game system.

Time for frame 3 Jab with reduced IASA frames!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've been thinking about mk after the curb stomping leo put on mr. R and I couldn't help but chuckle. Mk may not but the hero sm4sh for wants but it's the hero it deserves.

All jokes aside though MK has been getting more and more play and that's going to continue. How does he do vs other top tiers. I know he's a bad mu for Rosa.

 

[Ikes]

getting ready for the brawl days B)