Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

Something I saw on EVO that I was curious about, aMSa often picked up and Z-Dropped Diddy's bananas so as to leave them on the ground, is that a good strategy against Diddy?

You would think holding the banana is more effective but idk, maybe

 

[Pyr]

You would think holding the banana is more effective but idk, maybe

Puts the Banana under your control, so I can see why it's done. I'd think holding onto it would be more beneficial as well.

 

[TriTails]

One of fairs main uses is gimps.
Look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9WXmeB9jRw#t=7m55

Well, I never knew that.

Comparing Falco's Bair to Weegee's is just as flawed.

Yes, which is my point from the start. Perhaps should've worded it better.

You would think holding the banana is more effective but idk, maybe

Holding the banana means no normals or grabs, something some characters may don't want.

 

[NegaNixx]

You would think holding the banana is more effective but idk, maybe

If you're holding a fantastic item like Diddy's Banana, R.O.B.'s Gyro, Megaman's Metal Blade you use it as your own (Villager excluded because Pocket is Gawdlike in this situation. Peach excluded because Float is Gawdesslike.) You use it to pressure or exert stage control or in the best case scenario confirm a kill. Holding it takes it away but unless you use it they lose one option and you lose tons. All your normals and your grab. Toss Gyro upwards tokeep it out of play and take stage control of that area. Metal Blade can be used to Kill confirm off of Z-Drops, and the Banana is obviously very powerfulmas kill confirm, or even forcing the opponents to shield so you get free damage off of grabs. Holding it gives no advantage at all, at the very least throw it upwards so they cant pull another one and it's still under your control. Even Peach's turnips can net you a lot of damage if it's Stitch Dot or Mr. Saturn.

 

[outfoxd]

Soo I have been having troubles with Peaches because maybe I suck I need more Sonic training. For Glory training time!

How's vs ? I haven't even seen this match-up and I would love to know more about Bowser.Jr and Duck Hunt. What they can do and that stuff.

I think when it comes up it tends to be even. Dealing with can is hard because we set up gunman as a plan b and can pop the can anyway since junior doesn't have the projectile game to out amd out screw with our can.

Bowjow can get in and ruin our day with his combos and juggles. We aint great coming under us and JR puts in work coming low. Plus he has the mobility with cart dash to avoid some of our edgeguarding shenanigans.

Its dependent on whether we can slow the match down or Jr gets in.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be honest, I've read it all but I couldn't really disagree that much People are finally realizing Yoshis flaws.

A few things they're missing, but at least people are finding out the no kill options and bad neutral at least so it's a start. Slowly learning, maybe another 10+ months they'll see he's not actually top 5.

 

[Man Li Gi]

K. The trend seems to be debunking top tier/high tiers......I make a motion to include Ness into that situation.....don't kill me.

 

[KenMeister]

A few things they're missing, but at least people are finding out the no kill options and bad neutral at least so it's a start. Slowly learning, maybe another 10+ months they'll see he's not actually top 5.

Quit throwing around the words "bad neutral" without providing the proper arguments and proof for it, that's all I've seen you do. That's like going into a courtroom without evidence.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Isn't Yoshi's only truly bad move in neutral it's grab?

 

[Yonder]

I haven't heard many people talk about Game and Watch since he got top 15 solo. That's really impressive. What does everyone think of him now? I think he could be upper mid in due time with Regi's work showing through. And an unrelated note, mr.concon apparently sd's on customs due to misfiring in the first 5 seconds as Luigi with quick missile right off the stage to an SD. Too much distance...poor guy. He might have fared better bare that accident.]

 

[TriTails]

Isn't Yoshi's only truly bad move in neutral it's grab?

From what I can gather, his only spacing move is his F-air, but it's F16...

I'm curious. How do you guys rank neutral? I always thought that if a character can force another to approach, the said projectile character wins neutral, but IDK.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Quit throwing around the words "bad neutral" without providing the proper arguments and proof for it, that's all I've seen you do. That's like going into a courtroom without evidence.

I don't understand, I've always said why he has a bad neutral.
Even other people in this thread 3 pages ago pointed out his bad neutral.

ur silly

 

[KenMeister]

From what I can gather, his only spacing move is his F-air, but it's F16...

I'm curious. How do you guys rank neutral? I always thought that if a character can force another to approach, the said projectile character wins neutral, but IDK.

Was about to say, can't Yoshi camp certain characters with eggs and juggle them with them as well? I'll admit he lacks fast ranged options in the air, but so does Mario outside of bair, but Yoshi has like among the best air speed in the game to compensate for that, kind of like Wario. lol

 

[Shaya]

Poor Neutral seems to be a round-about way for someone to say "I don't have an easy to use horizontal tool/poke that out prioritizes things and gives me tons of positional advantage and/or kill confirms".

When I think of characters who have a lot of great moves (in their own rights) and mobility I think Yoshi/ZSS are out there in spades. But in terms of "free transitioning into advantaged state" that to me shouldn't be all neutral is about...

What a majority of people really see as "neutral" effectively comes down to how quickly they can dash to shield into you and have a potent OoS option based on how the opponent responds to that action. Sheik, fastest dash to shield, forward air out of shield. Simple, right?

ZSS and Yoshi have moves in Zair and Egg Throw that are nigh unpunishable super long ranged tools that provide follow ups and can heavily hamper/shut down the possible movements an opponent can make. Oh and if you're playing smart/properly, beats dash to shields.

Continuing on the hardly coherent rant here, people obviously consider something like Sheik's needles as what defines her OP neutral although other character's wide-range safe tools don't matter (bizarre).

The best out of shield/dash option characters in Brawl were the top tiers (or at least the best "neutrals"). Dash attack OoS is something we aren't seeing that much of right now beyond Fox, although Sheik's is (if not changed from Brawl) 5 frames good range. This gives her a consistent 14~ frame punish (inc shield drop) that should be able to hit any horizontally placed opponent. ZSS and Yoshi are slightly slower but much longer range dash attacks too.
In ZSS's case her dash to shield is actually really long/poor and considering Marth is also a similar long time I'm surprised I manage this staple part of mid-range / neutral game play with her so poorly (it's because she dashes so much faster), although she still has a 16 frame OoS option with transcended priority and 1/3rd FD length (and a 1/5th FD range grab at the same frame; kewky).

Just because a character does not have a sub 9 frame dash grab to me does not mean instantly poor neutral.

 

[Speed Boost]

I haven't heard many people talk about Game and Watch since he got top 15 solo. That's really impressive. What does everyone think of him now? I think he could be upper mid in due time with Regi's work showing through. And an unrelated note, mr.concon apparently sd's on customs due to misfiring in the first 5 seconds as Luigi with quick missile right off the stage to an SD. Too much distance...poor guy. He might have fared better bare that accident.]

Zero actually put up a video on G&W today, he said the thinks he is a solid mid tier character if not high tier. He has a lot of good stuff. I know I used to struggle against him on the 3ds as much as any other character.

I feel like every other month someone is going to show a character like G&W is a good character. The roster is full of good characters.

 

[Illuminose]

How the hell does Yoshi have a bad neutral? He has one of the most versatile zoning projectiles in the game and a fair he can space with effectively combined with his excellent air speed. Great mobility options overall, sh air dodge, ridiculous options to pressure shield including dair which annihilates shields and a command grab that gives him free damage, fast CQC options that give him follow-ups, and pretty good out-of-shield with a frame 3 nair. That's just his neutral. With egg frame traps and a powerful up air, Yoshi has one of the best advantaged states in the game. His damage output overall and especially in his punishes is absurd. On top of this, things that are inescapable for other characters are not inescapable for him because he has double jump armor and he will jump out of anything that isn't a true combo, including Mario up tilts (you legit can only get 1), AND he has a frame 3 nair. He can cover below himself with dair, punish things that you **** up underneath him with Yoshi Bomb, and change his momentum all over the place with B-reverse egg tosses and B-reverse/wavebounce Egg Lays. I'm not really sure how any Yoshi thinks that he can't kill either. Hella powerful up smash with great range, up air that is really powerful and can even be true kill comboed out of dthrow starting at ~120% or so, fair dunk that also happens to be really powerful kb wise if you don't sweet spot the spike, super strong bair...heck even your frame 3 nair kills by the edge of the stage at higher percents. This character is oozing top tier potential, I don't think he's overrated at all but rather lacking a solid representative.

 

[TriTails]

Why people say Yoshi's D-air annihilates shields I have no clue to this day. I have shielded numerous D-airs and none so far broke my shield.

 

[Dagon97]

Yes, has a good neutral but what results does have? I don't think anything sticks out. I am not sure why people are overrating so much. The only results he has it Abadango but ABSOLUTLEY NOBODY ELSE IN TOP 128 of EVO as far as I know. only has ESAM and the only other is Brick. The skill difference between Brick and ESAM is ASTRONOMICALLY different.

So yeah... my two cents, or three I guess lol.

 

[Shaya]

Why people say Yoshi's D-air annihilates shields I have no clue to this day. I have shielded numerous D-airs and none so far broke my shield.

People aren't into angling shields upwards atm.
You can also alter the angle of your shield left/right during the hits to protect yourself even better (if you don't accidentally roll/jump because of it).

But if you're just holding shield, it's likely to shield poke you at the last moment unless it's full. And if it doesn't poke, Yoshi can get hit by a fast-ish smash attack.

 

[Speed Boost]

Why people say Yoshi's D-air annihilates shields I have no clue to this day. I have shielded numerous D-airs and none so far broke my shield.

It doesn't have to break it to annihilate it. If it turns into an M&M and then shield pokes you, it can setup a shield break.

 

[Mario766]

You can avoid the final hit of Yoshi's down air by spot dodging the final hit. It's a guaranteed punish.

 

[Vipermoon]

Poor Neutral seems to be a round-about way for someone to say "I don't have an easy to use horizontal tool/poke that out prioritizes things and gives me tons of positional advantage and/or kill confirms".

When I think of characters who have a lot of great moves (in their own rights) and mobility I think Yoshi/ZSS are out there in spades. But in terms of "free transitioning into advantaged state" that to me shouldn't be all neutral is about...

What a majority of people really see as "neutral" effectively comes down to how quickly they can dash to shield into you and have a potent OoS option based on how the opponent responds to that action. Sheik, fastest dash to shield, forward air out of shield. Simple, right?

ZSS and Yoshi have moves in Zair and Egg Throw that are nigh unpunishable super long ranged tools that provide follow ups and can heavily hamper/shut down the possible movements an opponent can make. Oh and if you're playing smart/properly, beats dash to shields.

Continuing on the hardly coherent rant here, people obviously consider something like Sheik's needles as what defines her OP neutral although other character's wide-range safe tools don't matter (bizarre).

The best out of shield/dash option characters in Brawl were the top tiers (or at least the best "neutrals"). Dash attack OoS is something we aren't seeing that much of right now beyond Fox, although Sheik's is (if not changed from Brawl) 5 frames good range. This gives her a consistent 14~ frame punish (inc shield drop) that should be able to hit any horizontally placed opponent. ZSS and Yoshi are slightly slower but much longer range dash attacks too.
In ZSS's case her dash to shield is actually really long/poor and considering Marth is also a similar long time I'm surprised I manage this staple part of mid-range / neutral game play with her so poorly (it's because she dashes so much faster), although she still has a 16 frame OoS option with transcended priority and 1/3rd FD length (and a 1/5th FD range grab at the same frame; kewky).

Just because a character does not have a sub 9 frame dash grab to me does not mean instantly poor neutral.

I couldn't believe ZSS's DA was trans. I had to check to make sure. This news bothers me.

 

[Shaya]

Falco's forward smash being transcended priority makes for fantastic hilarity.

 

[Project Quarantine]

How the hell does Yoshi have a bad neutral? He has one of the most versatile zoning projectiles in the game and a fair he can space with effectively combined with his excellent air speed. Great mobility options overall, sh air dodge, ridiculous options to pressure shield including dair which annihilates shields and a command grab that gives him free damage, fast CQC options that give him follow-ups, and pretty good out-of-shield with a frame 3 nair. That's just his neutral. With egg frame traps and a powerful up air, Yoshi has one of the best advantaged states in the game. His damage output overall and especially in his punishes is absurd. On top of this, things that are inescapable for other characters are not inescapable for him because he has double jump armor and he will jump out of anything that isn't a true combo, including Mario up tilts (you legit can only get 1), AND he has a frame 3 nair. He can cover below himself with dair, punish things that you **** up underneath him with Yoshi Bomb, and change his momentum all over the place with B-reverse egg tosses and B-reverse/wavebounce Egg Lays. I'm not really sure how any Yoshi thinks that he can't kill either. Hella powerful up smash with great range, up air that is really powerful and can even be true kill comboed out of dthrow starting at ~120% or so, fair dunk that also happens to be really powerful kb wise if you don't sweet spot the spike, super strong bair...heck even your frame 3 nair kills by the edge of the stage at higher percents. This character is oozing top tier potential, I don't think he's overrated at all but rather lacking a solid representative.

There you have it. Most of yoshi's tools are listed in the exhibit above.

Let me preface this by saying, Yoshi isn't underrepresented because people don't like him. He is underrepresented because, frankly:

Yoshi is just a bag of tools

On paper, yes. Yoshi seems to have what it takes to be a top tier character for the reasons above. Looking on smashboards, you are bound to see one of the countless statements effectively saying, "Yoshi is good, but nobody good plays him."

Players want a character that flows. This is why captain falcon is the undisputed most played tournament character. Yoshi, while some of his combos oriented around fair, nair, uptilt, or egg traps seem to drive him as a combo oriented character, many others outclass him in that regard.

Players want a character that hits hard. So maybe you don't immediately pick falcon, zss, sheik, or another combo heavy speedster. Perhaps, you play DK and you want to end stocks at 50 with spikes and put on your shades like dkwill-senpai. Yoshi has some hype, power tools like the fair, smashes, or even d-special. However, again, yoshi doesn't excel there like others who thrive with kill power.

Players want a character that is creative. While I'm not a yoshi player, I have noticed that avid yoshis seem to like their mixups with eggs, combos, read up smashes, perfect pivot uptilts and that great jab. To most other players, there are the duck hunts, the bowser jrs, the warios, and many other choices on the creative/tricky side of smash. These extra crafty people rule out yoshi as an option.

The green dinosaur is just, not good enough at any one category of play, whether it is zoning, combos, killing, setups, reads, edgeguards or neutral to become a popular, tournament staple. Much less, to be played at the top level. Again, he is just a bag of tools.

Players like characters that win. While he does have lower-high tier status with his tools...

Yoshi isn't winning.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I haven't heard many people talk about Game and Watch since he got top 15 solo. That's really impressive. What does everyone think of him now? I think he could be upper mid in due time with Regi's work showing through. And an unrelated note, mr.concon apparently sd's on customs due to misfiring in the first 5 seconds as Luigi with quick missile right off the stage to an SD. Too much distance...poor guy. He might have fared better bare that accident.]

My opinions on g&w haven't changed. I had him rated a lot higher than most people and I still think highly of the character.

 

[Vipermoon]

Falco's forward smash being transcended priority makes for fantastic hilarity.

And now I want a list of all trans moves. I need to know these things

 

[Shaya]

Yoshi and to a greater extent Pit, have the most dynamic projectiles in the game and ride heavily on them being used properly ("technically") to achieve things other characters can do a lot easier on average.
Pit is one of those characters I consider fantastic for training or playing with certain game play facets in mind to improve on. Everything about him is average to above average, nothing too special, yet he has something that when used effectively produces a never-escapable trapping black hole. His position as an awkward high tier and/or his perception of being underwhelming would be completely different if it was heat-seeking or was trivial to control for hitting people in unique spots/angles. Usually a character with a "sky's the limit" tool is overly compensated elsewhere to make them seem usable at lower/mid levels (e.g. ZSS), and to most original opinions and likely still a bit now, Yoshi conforms to that idea well.

Yoshi is in a similar boat and with a few word swaps fits exactly within the above paragraph. You have like 100~ degree (or 180 with b-reversing/wavebouncing, which easily tech flubs into side-b, which is bad) cover and I have no idea how much variance based on how long you hold the button down in velocity. This is the tool that defines Yoshi as an enigma and has an excessively high skill cap that I'm sure we aren't seeing Yoshi's that have reached it yet; and just like Pit's arrows, if they aren't used properly they are useless. Yoshi's base stats/abilities are pretty high still and this allows an easy to observe "good character" from most player's perspectives in pick-up and play; his strong tools otherwise are definitely strong and simple (in understanding) to use. And for this reason I often feel like non-Yoshi mains can seem better than actual Yoshi mains, as the latter hold onto old-Brawlisms and without the highly skillful egg usage under their belts yet (reminder: not used properly they're almost useless) to truly differentiate "Yoshi skill" with "player skill".
Either Yoshi is a true gimmick, or we still have time to go before we see players actually masterful with the character.

 

[wm1026]

Egg toss is extremely punishable especially by fast characters such as Shiek and Sonic. It is not safe guys unless your very far away from your opponent and even then it isn't safe to sonic. Egg lay is a good move but it isn't that easy to land thanks to its start up. I don't see how people think fair is safe either as it puts out Yoshi's hurtbox with the hitbox so in other words it loses to all disjoints. I will say it can be hard to punish but not impossible in most cases. Neutral air is a good get off me tool and can lead into combos but it isn't safe on shield either. So to recap he doesn't really have anything that's easily safe on shields. On top of that his grab game is sub par as well as is his throw game. He just can't truly challenge one of the strongest moves that everyone on the roster has. Shields. It is true that dair destroys shields but it is also extremely risky do to the endlag on the move as well as almost every anti air beats it. I think Yoshi does above average in every category except the one that makes a character top tier in my opinion. That category is being able to effectively challenge and beat shields. I think this is what will keep him as just a high tier looking in on the top tiers.
Edit: Egg toss isn't a bad move even though I made it sound like that. It really isn't but air egg toss just isn't safe to approach with or effectively zone with.

 

[Locke 06]

Yoshi has one of the strongest defensive games though. SA double jump, NAir of the gods, unpokable shield, Usmash with a hitbox more ridiculous than Fox's, down-B punish out of spotdodge, and a great jab for a 2-part jab.

The previous neutral discussion talked a lot about transitioning from neutral to advantage. The ability to stay in neutral and not fall into disadvantage is a very large part of the neutral game and that's one I think Yoshi is quite good at. However, his actual neutral state i.e. spacing and getting "chip damage" is fully reliant on FAir, egg toss, and egg lay.

The think is because I don't see/watch/experience a lot of Yoshi vs top player/tiers. It's mostly based on kit analysis and Yoshi vs mid-tiers.

 

[Shaya]

isn't safe to approach with or effectively zone with.

Neither is Pits.
However, every time you get a hit, eggs/arrows should be hitting or trapping your opponent afterwards and if not you got outplayed or tech flubbed and missed.
Throws don't combo into things like other characters but barely have any growth on them whatsoever? I wonder why that's the case

Tons of good moves that "aren't good" because they set up positionally better than they do frame advantage (dash attack, bair, etc).

 

[FullMoon]

And now I want a list of all trans moves. I need to know these things

Well the most trans move in Smash, Zelda/Sheik's Down-B, got changed in Sm4sh so there aren't any left.

I'm not sorry

 

[wm1026]

Neither is Pits.
However, every time you get a hit, eggs/arrows should be hitting or trapping your opponent afterwards.
Throws don't combo into things like other characters but don't have any growth on them whatsoever? I wonder why that's the case

Tons of good moves that "aren't good" because they set up positionally better than they do frame advantage (dash attack, bair, etc).

My point on the egg toss was that it wasn't good in neutral. You pointed out its best quality in that it can set up traps. As far as the throws go, my point was that all of the top tiers either have throws that kill or throws that true combo into kills I wonder why that is
His throws do set up positional advantage but that's all they do. Top tier character throws at least in this game do more than that. That was my point on his throw game.

 

[Shaya]

"that's all they do", true, but if Yoshi had a different character's throws... perhaps Falcon's would be a good example, he'd likely be worse off for it.
He gets a killing throw near the ledge, a down throw he still wouldn't be able to follow up on majority of the time... and yet now there would be no DI mix up shenanigans and percent-independent egg pressure (that hasn't been widely developed or adopted yet) would be gone forever.

Is it actually a critical flaw for Yoshi to not have the grab games of the likes of Sheik, ZSS, Mario or is it necessary to keep his feasible rewards a lot harder as to avoid 0-200% egg juggles into an up air finish being a common thing?

 

[wm1026]

"that's all they do", true, but if Yoshi had a different character's throws... perhaps Falcon's would be a good example, he'd likely be worse off for it.
He gets a killing throw near the ledge, a down throw he still wouldn't be able to follow up on majority of the time... and yet now there would be no DI mix up shenanigans and percent-independent egg pressure (that hasn't been widely developed or adopted yet) would be gone forever.

I see what you are saying but let's face it down throw combos is like the bread and butter of this game. I think all Yoshi needs to make that step is either have a good grab game or a good throw game. He really only needs one. In other words he would be like ZSS in that his grab isn't good but the rewards he gets from landing it is great, or he would have and easy to land grab and keep his throws as they are now. The way it is now I see no reason for someone not to sit in shield the entire match because even if they are grabbed they just are not in guaranteed danger of losing their stock. Unlike if Ness or Shiek grabbed them.

Edit: Not trying to sound like I am crying for buffs or anything. I still think he is amazing character with good potential. He is my main after all. I am just saying I can't see him as top tier until he gets a good way to challenge shields reliably. He for now is just high tier which isn't bad at all.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

There you have it. Most of yoshi's tools are listed in the exhibit above.

Let me preface this by saying, Yoshi isn't underrepresented because people don't like him. He is underrepresented because, frankly:

Yoshi is just a bag of tools

On paper, yes. Yoshi seems to have what it takes to be a top tier character for the reasons above. Looking on smashboards, you are bound to see one of the countless statements effectively saying, "Yoshi is good, but nobody good plays him."

Players want a character that flows. This is why captain falcon is the undisputed most played tournament character. Yoshi, while some of his combos oriented around fair, nair, uptilt, or egg traps seem to drive him as a combo oriented character, many others outclass him in that regard.

Players want a character that hits hard. So maybe you don't immediately pick falcon, zss, sheik, or another combo heavy speedster. Perhaps, you play DK and you want to end stocks at 50 with spikes and put on your shades like dkwill-senpai. Yoshi has some hype, power tools like the fair, smashes, or even d-special. However, again, yoshi doesn't excel there like others who thrive with kill power.

Players want a character that is creative. While I'm not a yoshi player, I have noticed that avid yoshis seem to like their mixups with eggs, combos, read up smashes, perfect pivot uptilts and that great jab. To most other players, there are the duck hunts, the bowser jrs, the warios, and many other choices on the creative/tricky side of smash. These extra crafty people rule out yoshi as an option.

The green dinosaur is just, not good enough at any one category of play, whether it is zoning, combos, killing, setups, reads, edgeguards or neutral to become a popular, tournament staple. Much less, to be played at the top level. Again, he is just a bag of tools.

Players like characters that win. While he does have lower-high tier status with his tools...

Yoshi isn't winning.

I guess mario shouldn't be anywhere either. Or the pits.

EDIT:

"that's all they do", true, but if Yoshi had a different character's throws... perhaps Falcon's would be a good example, he'd likely be worse off for it.
He gets a killing throw near the ledge, a down throw he still wouldn't be able to follow up on majority of the time... and yet now there would be no DI mix up shenanigans and percent-independent egg pressure (that hasn't been widely developed or adopted yet) would be gone forever.
Click to expand...
I see what you are saying but let's face it down throw combos is like the bread and butter of this game. I think all Yoshi needs to make that step is either have a good grab game or a good throw game. He really only needs one. In other words he would be like ZSS in that his grab isn't good but the rewards he gets from landing it is great, or he would have and easy to land grab and keep his throws as they are now. The way it is now I see no reason for someone not to sit in shield the entire match because even if they are grabbed they just are not in guaranteed danger of losing their stock. Unlike if Ness or Shiek grabbed them.

Edit: Not trying to sound like I am crying for buffs or anything. I still think he is amazing character with good potential. He is my main after all. I am just saying I can't see him as top tier until he gets a good way to challenge shields reliably. He for now is just high tier which isn't bad at all.

. His command grab is pretty nice for approx. 20%? Punish.

 

[wm1026]

I guess mario shouldn't be anywhere either. Or the pits.

EDIT:
. His command grab is pretty nice for approx. 20%? Punish.

Good luck landing it without some kind of B reverse or read because of that start up. Throw on top of that, that if you flub the input you get put in side B his worst move and possibly die if this happens off stage. It does rack up percent well when you do land it but most of the time it won't get you the kill unless you make a good read and let's face it, a kill is better than percent in the end right?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Good luck landing it without some kind of B reverse or read because of that start up. Throw on top of that, that if you flub the input you get put in side B his worst move and possibly die if this happens off stage. It does rack up percent well when you do land it but most of the time it won't get you the kill unless you make a good read and let's face it, a kill is better than percent in the end right?

Your first sentences is about human error, that's not Yoshi's fault.
Second, the command grab is more than a damage builder. If you can constantly read when your opponents gonna shield, that's free damage on the character AND player. That opponent will start to become controlled and you can land kill moves off good rhythm and awareness. There's more to it than meets the eye
I also wonder if you can time down b correctly when they come out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't see many Foxes (even megafox) use Fair consecutively to get Usmash, more of just Dthrow Fair Uair and maybe Fair offstage like Yika's example.

Nietono uses fair spike -> usmash fwiw.Though I don't actually know if he plays Fox at all anymore.

 

[Nobie]

I find it kind of odd that people talk about how down throw follow-ups are so important in this game because so many characters have them. Isn't that looking at it a little backwards? If your character has down throw combos, great! If they don't, they don't. What other uses might those down throws have? Or maybe they shouldn't have down throw combos due to other character properties?

Yoshi and Game & Watch I think are in the same boat, which is super high mobility that makes fighting them in neutral actually a pain unless you have extremely good tools. Obviously they're not the same character, what with Yoshi being much heavier and G&W sporting a million and one disjoints, but they seem to have similar game plans, which involve heavy weaving and frustrating the opponent in neutral through sheer movement (without ignoring neutral a la Sonic). If G&W can do well, why can't Yoshi?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Isn't Yoshi's only truly bad move in neutral it's grab?

Yoshi's grab for the purposes of neutral is actually not bad.

It just has laughable reward, and it's fairly punishable.

However he has like three other not explicitly terrible moves in neutral. They're F-air, Egg Lay, and D-air. And they all have kinda obvious problems individually. F-air and Egg Lay are slow, and D-air doesn't have much horizontal range and has to be set up on not completely full shields.

Yoshi has one of the strongest defensive games though. SA double jump, NAir of the gods, unpokable shield, Usmash with a hitbox more ridiculous than Fox's, down-B punish out of spotdodge, and a great jab for a 2-part jab.

The previous neutral discussion talked a lot about transitioning from neutral to advantage. The ability to stay in neutral and not fall into disadvantage is a very large part of the neutral game and that's one I think Yoshi is quite good at. However, his actual neutral state i.e. spacing and getting "chip damage" is fully reliant on FAir, egg toss, and egg lay.

The think is because I don't see/watch/experience a lot of Yoshi vs top player/tiers. It's mostly based on kit analysis and Yoshi vs mid-tiers.

Brawl Yoshi had a great defensive game and was extremely tedious to approach past pivot grab and an unpokable shield. Smash 4 Yoshi's defensive game is kinda average outside of his strong negative state. Worth noting that Yoshi really dislikes dealing with good Jab pressure on shield.

Was about to say, can't Yoshi camp certain characters with eggs and juggle them with them as well? I'll admit he lacks fast ranged options in the air, but so does Mario outside of bair, but Yoshi has like among the best air speed in the game to compensate for that, kind of like Wario. lol

Yoshi doesn't really camp with Eggs. Too slow to force people to commit to anything in neutral.

They're good trap tools when Yoshi is in positive state, but something to realize is in several situations, Yoshi's followups on them are limited if you simply just get hit by them during juggles. This mostly matters at KO percents, obviously.

If I were to suggest changes for Yoshi, I would consider the following:
*F-air startup either frame 12 or 13, landing lag increased
*Allow SH buffered B-air to autocancel
*Increase throw damage by about 1-2 universally
*N-air startup frame 4

Goals being to make his spacing options better, bring his throw reward to more reasonable standards for this game, and to make his negative state slightly less obnoxious.