Venue Fees

[GOTM]

When I started playing Smash back in 2006, almost every tournament I went to had no venue fee. If a TO needed cash to give for renting the space, he/she took that out of the pot. I've been to numerous tournaments where there were between 15-30 entrants (small locals), with a total pot (singles/doubles) of like $300, and it was shrunk down to $200 because of the owner of the space requesting rent.

Now, the alternative to this recently has been to charge a venue fee almost everywhere. I don't know of many free venue tournaments anymore. The problem with this is that if a venue costs $200 to rent for the day, and 40 people show up paying a $5 venue, you're fine. If any more show up, you will rarely see the extra cash make its way back into the pot. If any less show up, money always gets taken from the pot.

What happens when you use this strategy is that each player at the tournament gets charged an extra $5 to enter, and only about 5-10% of the players actually get paid out, which makes it a non-issue for them.

If you choose to take money out of the pot instead of charging a venue, the top 5-10% don't make as much, but 100% of the players don't pay as much.

I think we really need to change who we are marketing tournaments towards. I think it should be towards the average player, not the top player. I don't think this has happened on purpose, but I think it has had this side effect, and I think it needs to change.

Now, if we're talking very large regional or national level tournaments, a venue fee makes a lot of sense. Usually places cost a lot more to rent for that many people, and people tend to expect a higher return if they are travelling that far and paying a much higher transportation cost. This topic really only applies to the more local regional type tournaments that happen a bit more frequently.

What do you guys think?

 

[TheTantalus]

I think the reason this started is that people would show up and not enter anything or only enter one event- this ensures that everyone pays.

From a T.O. perspective, organizers definitely deserve a reward for good planning/organizing. They also deserve to have their entry to the event covered at a minimum and be able to pay staff assisting with the event.

In addition, venue costs have gone up since 06. To get a sizeable venue for 8 hours where I live, its going to cost probably 300-600 dollars. If you want one for 12 hours, even more.

Finding venues like Inui's hotel are very rare (there was no cost for its use), so Inui and his helpers were making profit on each event. People made him out to be scumbag inui though, and then he lost his venue, thus ending his hosting career.

Having a venue also gives us the opportunity to do $5 tournaments instead of $10 ones, because a portion of the pot of a $5 event isn't much.

I think what we have is a good system. People just need to do a better job at getting cheaper venues and hyping/preparing their events. Our events lately have been $5 entry and we've had some better turnouts. We've also kept the venue fee to a minimum. Unfortunately, some venues are greedy and want more money (they want 500 dollars a day for some events).

We definitely should market out to the community better. I think a top 5 payout system and lower venue fees are the beginning to that. That's why my last event had no venue fee.

 

[LLDL]

Furthermore, not all venue's charge a set price. Some venue's simply want to be reimbursed for anyone using up their space. If it's 10 per person, the venue wants 10x.

I work at an arcade that I use as a venue for my tournaments, and they already charge an hourly rate for it's use. Having a set venue fee is actually a deal for the entrants. Who could be paying up to $25 for a few hours on a normal business day.

TO set aside, from the venue owner's viewpoint it doesn't make sense to close up the area so that players can play in a tournament, unless they would be making close to the equivalent or possibly more business that they would normally be getting if they didn't let a TO host for that day.

 

[-Ran]

It's easier to negotiate with a venue on a per-head basis. It also prevents the pot from being destroyed if not enough players show up, and prevents the TO from being liable for extra costs.

 

[GOTM]

I think the reason this started is that people would show up and not enter anything or only enter one event- this ensures that everyone pays.

If a venue does charge based on the number of entrants, then charging a venue fee per person makes sense if you're doing it to cover this from happening. However, I feel like this is the situation for a smaller subset of tournaments. I think most venues (at least the ones that I've dealt with), charge for the space and time needed, not # of people. Usually when you deal with someone charging based on the # of people, they are more likely than not just being difficult.

From a T.O. perspective, organizers definitely deserve a reward for good planning/organizing. They also deserve to have their entry to the event covered at a minimum and be able to pay staff assisting with the event.

Oh I agree, 100%. I've entered the tournaments I've hosted for free, but that $20 isn't going to make much of a difference. Plus, the only tournaments you really need staff for are very large ones, and for those, as I stated, venue makes sense anyway.

In addition, venue costs have gone up since 06. To get a sizeable venue for 8 hours where I live, its going to cost probably 300-600 dollars. If you want one for 12 hours, even more.

Charging a venue fee for something size-able is fine, as it probably means that the tournament will be much larger, and therefore attract many more OOS players. I'm talking more about the locals who charge $5 venue per person when they could approach it differently, imo.

Furthermore, not all venue's charge a set price. Some venue's simply want to be reimbursed for anyone using up their space. If it's 10 per person, the venue wants 10x.

I work at an arcade that I use as a venue for my tournaments, and they already charge an hourly rate for it's use. Having a set venue fee is actually a deal for the entrants. Who could be paying up to $25 for a few hours on a normal business day.

TO set aside, from the venue owner's viewpoint it doesn't make sense to close up the area so that players can play in a tournament, unless they would be making close to the equivalent or possibly more business that they would normally be getting if they didn't let a TO host for that day.

Well let's use this example. If they want to charge per head, that's fine. Say they charge $5 a head, and 30 people show up to the tournament. They are then getting $150.

The entry fee to that tournament would most likely be $10 for singles, and $10 for doubles, per person. So you're going to have $600 in the pot (if everyone does both, marginally less if they don't).

Now if you took the $150 out of the pot to pay the owner, instead of charging a separate venue fee, you'd have $450 to still pay out the players with. Yes, the winners make a bit less than they would otherwise, however, 100% of the players save $5.

If you go the venue route, each player is out $5, and only the winners get it back. I think it comes down to who you want to treat better, the top players, or the majority of the tournament goers.

It's easier to negotiate with a venue on a per-head basis. It also prevents the pot from being destroyed if not enough players show up, and prevents the TO from being liable for extra costs.

Ran, it's all proportional though. If 5 players went, the venue charges you $25, but the pot becomes $50. You're still not out money. Plus, the tournament goers cannot expect a huge pot anyway with 5 people there. If more go, well, just see the example above. It works out every time, people just have to get used to the adjusted pot. It would help more people than it would hurt imo.

 

[Alex Strife]

Hey GOTM,

Let me say it is nice to have people think about new ideas to help smashers possibly pay less.

That being said.

Tournament fees back in 2006 were often $20 with 30-40% of the pot taken for the venue itself ( At least in Tristate ). What happens though is that those venues began to take bigger and bigger cuts OR those places go out of business ( i.e CCX in NJ). When they started demanding 60% of the fees we felt like we should do something. The venue fees were "created" ( to be honest they always were around just not listed as venue fee only just a cut of the pot being taken ) to separate FULLY the prize pool from the venue cut. This was done in many other communities for years and it was done to make sure players know what they are paying for. There have been tournaments, sadly, where more money was taken then should.

That being said as time has gone by the Standard for a day tournament still is 10 venue 10 singles 10 doubles. People are generally fine with it and due to the economy it is actually a very good deal. Remember that back then there was a LOT of things different. To me I prefer things nowadays.

NOW this does not mean that all venue fees that are being charged are the same. Some people charge 10 bucks for a tournament in their apartment. I know that is a little nuts but that is something that has happened.

I will say this. The MAIN problem I have with TOs now is that they do not figure out budgets. They instead assume that everything that is done for them and by them should be free. IT is exactly why things do not get better in terms of quality and future event planning. I truly believe that venue fee is not just $ that goes to the venue but also covers all the costs OF the event. That includes paying for staff, rentals of any equipment or the like, paying the venue itself, and possible compensation of the person in charge. What happens when people do not do this is that they start not CARING at all about their event and just half *** things to the point where people stop going cause of that. Now there are limits to some of those things and that is a goal to make sure you get the best deal for the best price but that is something to think about.

Also IMO think outside the box. Gaming centers are not the only answer but that is a different discussion.

 

[GOTM]

Yeah no I agree with a lot of that. I don't disagree with the transparency, more just that people are using venue fees for the wrong reasons in a lot of cases.

When I track down a venue, I really do not stop until I find a free one. I feel like (for tournaments 100 people or less), a free venue is always accessible. I feel like people usually just take the easy way out, really want to run a tournament, and go to the shoe-in type place, who is obviously going to charge them.

I just found a venue that is free that can host up to 150 people, and I'm not in the city anymore. They exist, you just have to dig for them.

 

[Marc]

I think that many scenarios can be justified depending on tournament size and staff effort, as long as hosts are transparent about where their budget is going. My own community has pretty much always had venue fees as soon as actual venues were involved and some hosts also had to make up for buying equipment, so I can't really relate to the "it used to be free" sentiment. A venue fee ensures everyone is paying their share for being there and you could always keep the entrance fee for individual events on the low side as compensation, since the pot will be left untouched. Keeping those cash flows separate makes everything relating to money predictable and easy to understand for everyone involved, so I don't really see any issues with it.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

The economy crashed and TO's wanted money:/


For real tho, after paying the venue, all my left over Yoshi goes into the "Tyler Fund" which is used to fund more additions to my events. IE, I just bought a bunch of SD cards so I could join the National Replay Project. Now every singles bracket match will be uploaded to YouTube.

Another example would be buying a capture card for streaming, but I did that out of my pocket.

Also I am going to use some Tyler fund money to print flyers at Kinkos or FedEx Office or whatever.

All the money recirculates back into the scene.

 

[GOTM]

All the money recirculates back into the scene.

If this was guaranteed to always happen, I would be more fine with it, lol. It rarely happens this way though, at least not all the time.

 

[metalmonstar]

I am not sure I understand the point of this thread. Are you saying that TOs should look into alternate pricing systems for their tournaments? Are you saying that TOs need to look for cheaper or free venues to host tournaments? Or are you upset that a TO took money out of the prize pool in order cover venue cost? If it is the first two then I agree. I think that as a community we get stuck in a rut and too often just accept the easy way. However, the topic makes it seem like this is about the inconsistency in how TOs handle the money. This isn't really fair statement their are plenty of TOs who if they don't make the cost of the venue with the venue fee then they pay out of their own pocket. Also for many TOs any profit they make gets put right back in whether it is by pre paying the venue for the next event or purchasing more equipment. Also I feel that TOs should be allowed to make money off of tournaments especially if they are well run. If you don't like a TOs practices you can always voice your concerns with your dollar.

I think transparency is the key for any pricing method that a TO chooses. I have a thread I wrote a long while back where I discuss the Pros and Cons of each pricing method you can view it here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=272491.

I think a good pricing method for local event would be a straight house cut from the pot. Personally I wanted to try a 10 dollar entry fee where the house takes 3 dollars. That way if a person plays singles and doubles they only pay 20 dollars. On the other hand the house makes 6 dollars which is only a dollar more than the standard 5. Also the top players still get a decent cut as 7 dollars is still a good amount per person.

Their are 5 main sessions that a TO has to put effort into. First is finding the venue, second is advertising the event, third is the setup of said event, fourth is actually running the event, and finally is clean up. The first 3 steps occur whether anyone shows up to said tournament or not. The only really session that requires more or less work depending on people is running of the event. In a way it makes since to only charge on this variable portion. However that means that the TO is earning nothing on their "fixed" efforts. I feel the TO should be allowed to be compensated for their work. It is the TOs responsibility to choose the best method that works for them as well as put a value to the time and effort they are wiling to put into an event.

As for finding free venues. In my experience often finding a free venue is difficult, and even when you do find one they often have stipulations and restrictions.

Schools- As a current student or as part of a student club you could likely rent out space for free. However schools often have red tape that must be traverse. Also depending on the school they may not like money changing hands.

Hotels-A large conference hall is going to cost you but a small room or two is suprisingly reasonable. It depends on the hotel though. The main problem is they often have a lot of hidden fees and often try to trick you into services.

Event centers- The main problem is they charge usually 20+ per head at these events. Also they don't allow outside food and often push you into on of their catering. These places are mostly targeting wedding receptions. My suggestion if you are going to go with an event center is to go with the wedding off season they may be more willing to negotiate.

Small Business- These are the best as often they will be free or cheap. They want people in their store. The main problem though is finding one that has enough spare space for a tournament.

Churches- Often they are pretty cheap to rent. In my area though churches are old fashioned and won't allow money to change hands whatsoever.

Social Clubs/Lodges- They are pretty reasonably priced if you happen to be a member. The decor often leaves a lot to be desired. Sometimes they will have rules and stipulations.