Vent.

[C@sH Mooney]

lol

Has Chaos ever plays ssbm at a competitive level? =/

 

[Mike G]

whether he has or not isnt the point.

I agree with alot of what he says tho....


not all of it is tru but he makes good points.

 

[hungrybox]

chaos played smash or something else?

 

[derf]

i agree with a lot of chaos's points actually. but of course not all of them. so here i go again...

contrary to what he saying, i think that melee is a thinking man's game with very few actual safe approaches. i know people are gonna site fox's safe aerials on shield, but fox approaching with aerials in general is far from safe as his jump is one of the easiest in the game to outspace and punish. plus he has no range, so outprioritizing his aerials is easy for a lot of the cast if you predict them.

and its not the removal of advanced techniques that bothers me, but rather the removal of the options they present. he makes the point that in MvC, wavedashing was simply a technical skill that added no depth to the game. but in melee, wavedashing adds a ridiculous amount of options from any given situation (is anyone really arguing this point?).

personally, i dont care for complex inputs and I'm almost 100% for the removal of L canceling (if only it didn't slow the game down so much). the removal of the importance of fast-twitch reflexes drives me crazy though. melee challenges your reaction time. you have to be on your toes at all times. you have to concoct approaches and make defensive decisions while also maintaining your concentration on someone else's light-speed movements and the corresponding options their character has from any situation. that **** is a rush and it's a big reason i still play this game

furthermore i would like to add i wasnt dead set on using the same tactics in brawl that i did in melee. i just didnt want to have to use the same tactics i used in the original street fighter 2 when i was 10 years old with the "addition" of the rock/paper/scissors style follow-up system everyone is raving about that was actually present in melee. its just back then, nobody passed it off as innovative b/c its in pretty much every PvP game ever and because in melee you had more fun things to do than play rock/paper/scissors

 

[dguy6789]

It is readily apparent that for whatever the Melee metagame was morphed into what it became, the same minds are absolutely dead set on doing the same in brawl. They want what they want, regardless of what that means in terms of quality of the experience for everyone else.

For some reason they do not understand the idea that complex button pushes are not depth. If these "glitches" are required to make you competitive then they are not "deep" at all, they are a requirement to be able to maximize your character performance. Nothing that is required to be successful at a tourney level is "deep". Wavedashing and triangle jumping are technical skills that are required to play MVC2 well. They in no way add to the depth of the game, they just make certain characters better, IE the ones that can take said techniques and apply them most easily and with best results.

I get the impression that smash players want the game to be about repeatedly doing "safe" things until one hits and then rolling to victory. They don't want to have to alter the patterns in which they play because of their opponent, they don't want the stage to alter the way they play, and they absolutely despise any inactivity or attempt to control space as "camping".

Brawl is set up far more like an old school game where a gameplan against each unique toon and opponent and the ability to control gameplay flow so that you are in position to maximize the tools of your character at all times are far more important than fast twitch reflexes and the ability to execute somewhat complex button combinations. It is a thinking mans game, not a hopped up on red bull rushfest.

This is a view from a community that has been through game tiering wars, I have personally seen the evolution of MVC2, CVS2 and the GG series from infancy. To call a game empty after a month is foolish. Most of this commentary is based on the average smashboards poster, but my inability to find anyone who isn't in this vien to talk to frustrates me. The voice of the scrub is overwhelming the voice of reason.

I feel this needs to be repeated just so that people get the idea a little better.

There are some people who say brawl sucks simply because their friends beat them in Brawl but didn't in Melee. To these scrubs: Get better, stop blaming the game for your lack of skill.


The rest of this post is for people who have a legitimate concern for Brawl gameplay.


Most people are still looking at Brawl the wrong way. They feel that because of the air dodge and the removal of wave dashing, that Brawl isn't going to be a good game. The game is slower, there are no for sure 0-death combos, etc.... People need to understand that different does not equal bad, and that slower does not equal no skill required.

To begin with, the game does have methods for canceling the lag of certain moves, so people need to stop complaining about there being no superior higher skilled way to perform aerials, because there is.

The next thing is the lack of combos. Brawl has no guaranteed combos that extend beyond three hits as far as I know. In Brawl, combos happen when you react to your opponent's reaction to your movements properly. This makes combos both more difficult to pull off, and more rewarding after you do them.

Some people say that the better player doesn't always win in a Brawl match. That is totally ridiculous. If you lose to someone, they are better than you, no johns.

It has also been stated that the difference between a good player and a bad player at Brawl is a lot smaller than it was or ever will be with Melee. This is untrue completely. Since Brawl is new, the highest level of play is not as high comparatively to the highest level of Melee play. This is to be expected. However, that said, a good Brawl player will two or three stock an average player with no problem. If you only beat a scrub by one stock, you suck, get better.

Many assume that being good at Melee means you will be good at Brawl. This is false. Brawl and Melee do have some similarities and your Melee experience will carry over and help you a ton if you apply your knowledge. However, if you assume that by being good at Melee you will automatically be good at Brawl without putting work in, you will be rudely awakened by being beaten by someone you would consider a scrub.

Tripping sucks, nobody likes it. It is in the game and will never be removed. It is no worse than Peach's turnips or bombs were in Melee, and people were fine with that. Discussion of tripping is pointless, it does not break the game.

People say camping makes or breaks this game. That is untrue. If you lose to someone, you are not as good at the game as they are, don't blame the loss on a tactic. Camping is exactly like it was in Melee. The main difference now though is that most people suck at the game and have no ability to manuever their character effectively enough to deal with it. I can't tell you how many people I can beat by just pushing B with Wolf and spamming down smash. Do the same tactic against me and it is a three stock. Camping is so big now because it is what works, and the key to any competitive game is to find out what works vs your opponent and do it. Once again though, if you throw someone my way and all they can do is roll and throw their projectile, they are not gonna have any chance. To beat me, you are going to have to have some intelligence behind your play. If you really are losing to someone that all they can do is throw projectiles, you suck.

The buffering system is something that adds to complexity and is totally controllable and usable. People need to stop complaining about it being some glitched implementation.

The reduced damage after move abuse adds strategy to the game. This existed in Melee, but not to near the extent. I can't name one Peach who used less down smash or a Fox who used less up smash because the move became less effective after each use. In Brawl, there is a degree of strategic move use that must be considered.

Combos are not all that grabs are useful for. Grabs are also good for moving the enemy to a more desirable position.

People who say Melee required no thinking are idiots. Being a smart player is an incredibly important aspect to high level play. However, smart play is more important in Brawl than it was in Melee. In Melee, there were some techniques one could perform that eased the requirement of fully understanding what your opponent was going to do at all times because the technique itself was so effective that it was probably going to land regardless of what the opponent wanted to do in most cases. The very simplest example of this is short hop laser. One could sit on the side of FD and use the technique and it will probably get at least a few hits before the enemy gets to you regardless of their approach. In Brawl, no such technique exists.(There is no projectile technique in Brawl that is that effective) In Brawl, you have to know what your opponent is going to do every single time you come into contact with him/her if you want to land a hit without getting hit yourself. That is why Brawl requires a more constant understanding of the mindset of your opponent.

Further evidence of this is that someone lets say Vericz could do short hop laser all day and four stock Melee scrubs without really thinking about or caring about what tactics they were going to use. If he wanted to three stock people in Brawl, he would have to be signifcantly more careful with every single move he did.

That's enough for now.

 

[Finch]

furthermore i would like to add i wasnt dead set on using the same tactics in brawl that i did in melee. i just didnt want to have to use the same tactics i used in the original street fighter 2 when i was 10 years old with the "addition" of the rock/paper/scissors style follow-up system everyone is raving about that was actually present in melee. its just back then, nobody passed it off as innovative b/c its in pretty much every PvP game ever and because in melee you had more fun things to do than play rock/paper/scissors

wow QFT

10char

 

[?!?]

I believe if you were PRO at melee you most likely could be pro at brawl not good PRO. I garantee colbol is gonna dominate clf again if he even plays the game lol

 

[h1roshi]

im going to own lambchops in brawl!!!

-hiro

 

[Angrylobster]

I feel this needs to be repeated just so that people get the idea a little better.

There are some people who say brawl sucks simply because their friends beat them in Brawl but didn't in Melee. To these scrubs: Get better, stop blaming the game for your lack of skill.


The rest of this post is for people who have a legitimate concern for Brawl gameplay.


Most people are still looking at Brawl the wrong way. They feel that because of the air dodge and the removal of wave dashing, that Brawl isn't going to be a good game. The game is slower, there are no for sure 0-death combos, etc.... People need to understand that different does not equal bad, and that slower does not equal no skill required.

To begin with, the game does have methods for canceling the lag of certain moves, so people need to stop complaining about there being no superior higher skilled way to perform aerials, because there is.

The next thing is the lack of combos. Brawl has no guaranteed combos that extend beyond three hits as far as I know. In Brawl, combos happen when you react to your opponent's reaction to your movements properly. This makes combos both more difficult to pull off, and more rewarding after you do them.

Some people say that the better player doesn't always win in a Brawl match. That is totally ridiculous. If you lose to someone, they are better than you, no johns.

It has also been stated that the difference between a good player and a bad player at Brawl is a lot smaller than it was or ever will be with Melee. This is untrue completely. Since Brawl is new, the highest level of play is not as high comparatively to the highest level of Melee play. This is to be expected. However, that said, a good Brawl player will two or three stock an average player with no problem. If you only beat a scrub by one stock, you suck, get better.

Many assume that being good at Melee means you will be good at Brawl. This is false. Brawl and Melee do have some similarities and your Melee experience will carry over and help you a ton if you apply your knowledge. However, if you assume that by being good at Melee you will automatically be good at Brawl without putting work in, you will be rudely awakened by being beaten by someone you would consider a scrub.

Tripping sucks, nobody likes it. It is in the game and will never be removed. It is no worse than Peach's turnips or bombs were in Melee, and people were fine with that. Discussion of tripping is pointless, it does not break the game.

People say camping makes or breaks this game. That is untrue. If you lose to someone, you are not as good at the game as they are, don't blame the loss on a tactic. Camping is exactly like it was in Melee. The main difference now though is that most people suck at the game and have no ability to manuever their character effectively enough to deal with it. I can't tell you how many people I can beat by just pushing B with Wolf and spamming down smash. Do the same tactic against me and it is a three stock. Camping is so big now because it is what works, and the key to any competitive game is to find out what works vs your opponent and do it. Once again though, if you throw someone my way and all they can do is roll and throw their projectile, they are not gonna have any chance. To beat me, you are going to have to have some intelligence behind your play. If you really are losing to someone that all they can do is throw projectiles, you suck.

The buffering system is something that adds to complexity and is totally controllable and usable. People need to stop complaining about it being some glitched implementation.

The reduced damage after move abuse adds strategy to the game. This existed in Melee, but not to near the extent. I can't name one Peach who used less down smash or a Fox who used less up smash because the move became less effective after each use. In Brawl, there is a degree of strategic move use that must be considered.

Combos are not all that grabs are useful for. Grabs are also good for moving the enemy to a more desirable position.

People who say Melee required no thinking are idiots. Being a smart player is an incredibly important aspect to high level play. However, smart play is more important in Brawl than it was in Melee. In Melee, there were some techniques one could perform that eased the requirement of fully understanding what your opponent was going to do at all times because the technique itself was so effective that it was probably going to land regardless of what the opponent wanted to do in most cases. The very simplest example of this is short hop laser. One could sit on the side of FD and use the technique and it will probably get at least a few hits before the enemy gets to you regardless of their approach. In Brawl, no such technique exists.(There is no projectile technique in Brawl that is that effective) In Brawl, you have to know what your opponent is going to do every single time you come into contact with him/her if you want to land a hit without getting hit yourself. That is why Brawl requires a more constant understanding of the mindset of your opponent.

Further evidence of this is that someone lets say Vericz could do short hop laser all day and four stock Melee scrubs without really thinking about or caring about what tactics they were going to use. If he wanted to three stock people in Brawl, he would have to be signifcantly more careful with every single move he did.

That's enough for now.

noob



10 char

 

[dguy6789]

noob



10 char

Well you're not as Angry as you would like some people to believe.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

I feel this needs to be repeated just so that people get the idea a little better.

There are some people who say brawl sucks simply because their friends beat them in Brawl but didn't in Melee. To these scrubs: Get better, stop blaming the game for your lack of skill.


The rest of this post is for people who have a legitimate concern for Brawl gameplay.


Most people are still looking at Brawl the wrong way. They feel that because of the air dodge and the removal of wave dashing, that Brawl isn't going to be a good game. The game is slower, there are no for sure 0-death combos, etc.... People need to understand that different does not equal bad, and that slower does not equal no skill required.

To begin with, the game does have methods for canceling the lag of certain moves, so people need to stop complaining about there being no superior higher skilled way to perform aerials, because there is.

The next thing is the lack of combos. Brawl has no guaranteed combos that extend beyond three hits as far as I know. In Brawl, combos happen when you react to your opponent's reaction to your movements properly. This makes combos both more difficult to pull off, and more rewarding after you do them.

Some people say that the better player doesn't always win in a Brawl match. That is totally ridiculous. If you lose to someone, they are better than you, no johns.

It has also been stated that the difference between a good player and a bad player at Brawl is a lot smaller than it was or ever will be with Melee. This is untrue completely. Since Brawl is new, the highest level of play is not as high comparatively to the highest level of Melee play. This is to be expected. However, that said, a good Brawl player will two or three stock an average player with no problem. If you only beat a scrub by one stock, you suck, get better.

Many assume that being good at Melee means you will be good at Brawl. This is false. Brawl and Melee do have some similarities and your Melee experience will carry over and help you a ton if you apply your knowledge. However, if you assume that by being good at Melee you will automatically be good at Brawl without putting work in, you will be rudely awakened by being beaten by someone you would consider a scrub.

Tripping sucks, nobody likes it. It is in the game and will never be removed. It is no worse than Peach's turnips or bombs were in Melee, and people were fine with that. Discussion of tripping is pointless, it does not break the game.

People say camping makes or breaks this game. That is untrue. If you lose to someone, you are not as good at the game as they are, don't blame the loss on a tactic. Camping is exactly like it was in Melee. The main difference now though is that most people suck at the game and have no ability to manuever their character effectively enough to deal with it. I can't tell you how many people I can beat by just pushing B with Wolf and spamming down smash. Do the same tactic against me and it is a three stock. Camping is so big now because it is what works, and the key to any competitive game is to find out what works vs your opponent and do it. Once again though, if you throw someone my way and all they can do is roll and throw their projectile, they are not gonna have any chance. To beat me, you are going to have to have some intelligence behind your play. If you really are losing to someone that all they can do is throw projectiles, you suck.

The buffering system is something that adds to complexity and is totally controllable and usable. People need to stop complaining about it being some glitched implementation.

The reduced damage after move abuse adds strategy to the game. This existed in Melee, but not to near the extent. I can't name one Peach who used less down smash or a Fox who used less up smash because the move became less effective after each use. In Brawl, there is a degree of strategic move use that must be considered.

Combos are not all that grabs are useful for. Grabs are also good for moving the enemy to a more desirable position.

People who say Melee required no thinking are idiots. Being a smart player is an incredibly important aspect to high level play. However, smart play is more important in Brawl than it was in Melee. In Melee, there were some techniques one could perform that eased the requirement of fully understanding what your opponent was going to do at all times because the technique itself was so effective that it was probably going to land regardless of what the opponent wanted to do in most cases. The very simplest example of this is short hop laser. One could sit on the side of FD and use the technique and it will probably get at least a few hits before the enemy gets to you regardless of their approach. In Brawl, no such technique exists.(There is no projectile technique in Brawl that is that effective) In Brawl, you have to know what your opponent is going to do every single time you come into contact with him/her if you want to land a hit without getting hit yourself. That is why Brawl requires a more constant understanding of the mindset of your opponent.

Further evidence of this is that someone lets say Vericz could do short hop laser all day and four stock Melee scrubs without really thinking about or caring about what tactics they were going to use. If he wanted to three stock people in Brawl, he would have to be signifcantly more careful with every single move he did.

That's enough for now.

Wow

Thats one big *** post.

 

[derf]

The buffering system is something that adds to complexity and is totally controllable and usable. People need to stop complaining about it being some glitched implementation.

i dont see anyone making this argrument. ill concede the buffer system is one of the good things about brawl

Combos are not all that grabs are useful for. Grabs are also good for moving the enemy to a more desirable position.

my argument is that this isn't enough. grabbing is very risky in brawl because of the slower speed and the fact characters can attack almost instantly out of their shield (thereby hitting you out of your grab)

so my reward for reading my opponent, performing an unsafe approach to punish them, and succeeding is...10 damage and the opportunity to read my opponent again. from what i've seen, brawl disproportionately rewards playing safe, making matches boring

 

[dguy6789]

my argument is that this isn't enough. grabbing is very risky in brawl because of the slower speed and the fact characters can attack almost instantly out of their shield (thereby hitting you out of your grab)

so my reward for reading my opponent, performing an unsafe approach to punish them, and succeeding is...10 damage and the opportunity to read my opponent again. from what i've seen, brawl disproportionately rewards playing safe, making matches boring

I will agree that grabbing has significantly dropped in power from Melee. That said, grabbing still beats someone who is spamming shield grabs. Another use for a grab now is throwing someone off the stage and then ledge guarding them. The grab doesn't get you the kill, but it puts the enemy in the right place for you to at least attempt it. Character per character though, the quality of the grab varies drastically.

 

[derf]

Another use for a grab now is throwing someone off the stage and then ledge guarding them.

in melee, this strategy existed and was generally more effective.

also, the prevalence of relatively skill-less chaingrabs in brawl (pika 100% on FFers wtf)...not really going anywhere with this one we haven't already gone, but idk i mean didnt they beta test this game? its not like they didnt know about chain-grabs in melee since they deliberately took sheiks out of the PAL release

 

[dguy6789]

in melee, this strategy existed and was generally more effective.

also, the prevalence of relatively skill-less chaingrabs in brawl (pika 100% on FFers wtf)...not really going anywhere with this one we haven't already gone, but idk i mean didnt they beta test this game? its not like they didnt know about chain-grabs in melee since they deliberately took sheiks out of the PAL release

Yeah the tactic was better in melee. I do dislike the chain grabbing in the game though. We as a community just have to decide how we will deal with it.

 

[SynikaL]

Arrrrgggh!!!


Chao's post is an epitomical example of what I was hinting at in my last post. Here is someone completely oblivious to the universal truths of the discussion, so he manages to place merit within personal anecdotes that he feels support his convictions. This individual truly believes he is providing a larger picture, but he isn't, as his thought process is clearly not governed by these universals. His mathematics are bound to the confines and contexts of competitive fighting games.

Here's the facts: the abstraction of any layer of complexity from any macrocosm ultimately results in a less complexed whole. The universal definition of "depth" implies the concept of "how much". A puddle of water hosts its own depth, but is ultimately more shallow than an Olympic-sized swimming pool, which in turn, ultimately pales in comparison to an ocean. With the palm of your hand, scoop any measure of water from any of these vessels -- however miniscule -- and its volume suffers. In turn, its ultimate measure of depth suffers .

In relation to Melee, in relation to other fighting games (I hate to even call Brawl a fighting game, but that is indeed what it is), Brawl lacks the universal definition of depth. This, however, has little correlation with how competitive the game will ultimately be. If a large amount of people enjoy the game and employ a competitive mindset, the game will ultimately be competitive. Had it been popular enough, Power Stone 2 could have been competitive. Fvcking marbles can be competitive. Humanity's inclinations can make anything competitive. Melee contains more depth than Super Turbo by definition, but which game has been more competitive is arguable.

While many of Melee's "techniques" need not exist in Brawl for it to have a satisfying volume of depth (Wavedash, various glitches, chain grabs etc.), to claim that the subtraction of variety in the transition to Brawl does not hurt the game's potential depth in relation to the previous game is a logical absurdity.

-Kimosabae

 

[hungrybox]

Well I got my brawl johns out after I dropped jiggs and switched to mario/dedede

OMG I LOVE POWER STONE!!!!!!!

 

[exarch]

Dguy I don't disagree with just about anything you said, however our opinions on the subject differ ever so slightly. I'll try to keep this short.

How do you cancel aerials? I know about the dash upsmash... but nothing I've read has been about canceling lag on aerials. Even edgecanceling was taken out.

In brawl the ability to combo depends on the comboer to foresee how the comboee is going to try to escape. This is no different from melee except now the comboee has so many more options between every hit of the combo. IMO they've taken too much away from the comboer.

I realize Brawl is just a few months old, and there is probably much development in the future. I just don't care to be the one who develops it. Get back to me in 6 months when y'all have "broken" this game too.

Camping is unbalanced in this game because of the limitations of the attacker. In melee the aggressor had many more options to approach then he does in brawl. With the removal of many of these options, the camper only has a minimum amount of approaches to worry about.

Grabs are useful for both combos and positioning in melee. I remember i grabbed Darrel's ganon once with mario at 0% on the left side of FD. I dthrew him and he asked "why didn't you throw me off?" (which would have been a bthrow). A valid question because mario could gimp ganon. Instead he ended up off the right side of FD after a 90% combo. I had two options, I picked one and I made the most of it. In brawl there is only one option.
How is that fun?

I don't think any technique in melee was completely mindless. If you're SHL with fox, you're thinking about how your opponent is going to approach you.
In melee you have to be on your toes at all times, and if you have actually ever played like that in melee, you realize how boring brawl is.

 

[?!?]

Arrrrgggh!!!


Chao's post is an epitomical example of what I was hinting at in my last post. Here is someone completely oblivious to the universal truths of the discussion, so he manages to place merit within personal anecdotes that he feels support his convictions. This individual truly believes he is providing a larger picture, but he isn't, as his thought process is clearly not governed by these universals. His mathematics are bound to the confines and contexts of competitive fighting games.

Here's the facts: the abstraction of any layer of complexity from any macrocosm ultimately results in a less complexed whole. The universal definition of "depth" implies the concept of "how much". A puddle of water hosts its own depth, but is ultimately more shallow than an Olympic-sized swimming pool, which in turn, ultimately pales in comparison to an ocean. With the palm of your hand, scoop any measure of water from any of these vessels -- however miniscule -- and its volume suffers. In turn, its ultimate measure of depth suffers .

In relation to Melee, in relation to other fighting games (I hate to even call Brawl a fighting game, but that is indeed what it is), Brawl lacks the universal definition of depth. This, however, has little correlation with how competitive the game will ultimately be. If a large amount of people enjoy the game and employ a competitive mindset, the game will ultimately be competitive. Had it been popular enough, Power Stone 2 could have been competitive. Fvcking marbles can be competitive. Humanity's inclinations can make anything competitive. Melee contains more depth than Super Turbo by definition, but which game has been more competitive is arguable.

While many of Melee's "techniques" need not exist in Brawl for it to have a satisfying volume of depth (Wavedash, various glitches, chain grabs etc.), to claim that the subtraction of variety in the transition to Brawl does not hurt the game's potential depth in relation to the previous game is a logical absurdity.

-Kimosabae

Man kye I love your grammar lol too smart haha

 

[Finch]

I believe the way to "cancel" aerials is to jump higher so your laggy attack finishes before you touch the ground? CF is still useless.

 

[Fenrir VII]

grabbing is very risky in brawl because of the slower speed and the fact characters can attack almost instantly out of their shield (thereby hitting you out of your grab)

Did you know that all grabs have super armor on them? Meaning, you can take a hit and percentage and still land the grab...so hitting somebody out of a grab is a LOT harder than it was in Melee.

Camping is unbalanced in this game because of the limitations of the attacker. In melee the aggressor had many more options to approach then he does in brawl. With the removal of many of these options, the camper only has a minimum amount of approaches to worry about.

To be honest, I'm not sure what option they took away from somebody trying to beat a camper. In my opinion, with the new airdodge and easier powershielding, they made it easier to approach a camper. Seriously, camping in this game is ridiculously easy to get around...I'm not sure why people keep falling back onto this one.

Anybody......anybody who thinks this game is campier than Melee should actually sit down and think a bit... now remember Lambchops against matchups he didn't know earlier on...or, the obvious one, Noucles. I've never been camped harder than Noucles camped my Zelda...that match was, in a word, impossible. Why the hell is Brawl suddenly better for campers? I mean, just use your brain when approaching, and it's NOT. THAT. BAD .......just get over it.

Arrrrgggh!!!
While many of Melee's "techniques" need not exist in Brawl for it to have a satisfying volume of depth (Wavedash, various glitches, chain grabs etc.), to claim that the subtraction of variety in the transition to Brawl does not hurt the game's potential depth in relation to the previous game is a logical absurdity.

I love how you can eloquently make your points and make them sound so valid, but completely ignore things.
Yes, a lot of things were removed in the transition from Melee to Brawl...that much is obvious...and it's the part that you are completely focused on.
But admit it or not...I really don't care either way...there was quite a bit ADDED to this game as well.
Whether people want to admit it or not, the airdodge system in this game is infinitely superior to melee's...Now, instead of waiting for people to come down and hitting them (in most cases), the person in the air has quite a few more options. If you are charging an attack on them, it's not a guaranteed hit...they have a few choices, if they decide to come down right on top of you. They can attack you directly, airdodge your attack, or use their jump / up B / stalls same as in Melee.
You can make the point that they could do this in Melee, but if a person used airdodge in that situation in Melee, it was usually a free hit for the attacker...now it's not.

Now, you can approach with jumping airdodge to an attack...I'm seeing so much depth ALREADY in the implementation of this single strategy that a lot of people seem to be missing.

The super armor on grabs MAKES SENSE...it needs to be there. Now, if you've timed and spaced a grab, Fox can't jab you out of it. Sure, he lands the jab, but you still get your grab.

I dislike when people keep saying that "so much was taken out from Melee" without completing that sentence. There was a lot added...admit it or not. It's there. Maybe it's techniques that don't appear usable at the moment to most players, but they are coming out...

 

[hungrybox]

I'm sure @ HK we will see some "homemade" brawl tech

 

[C@sH Mooney]

I'm sure @ HK we will see some "homemade" brawl tech

Werd. I've got some of those.

 

[exarch]

Brawl camping isn't that bad.

But admit it or not...I really don't care either way...there was quite a bit ADDED to this game as well.

Now, you can approach with jumping airdodge to an attack...I'm seeing so much depth ALREADY in the implementation of this single strategy that a lot of people seem to be missing.

The super armor on grabs MAKES SENSE...it needs to be there. Now, if you've timed and spaced a grab, Fox can't jab you out of it. Sure, he lands the jab, but you still get your grab.

I dislike when people keep saying that "so much was taken out from Melee" without completing that sentence. There was a lot added...admit it or not. It's there. Maybe it's techniques that don't appear usable at the moment to most players, but they are coming out...

I see no tactical disadvantage to brawl camping. Brawl camping may not be worse than melee camping, but it should be done by EVERYONE (who has a projectile) because the advantage in brawl is inherently to the turtling character. The removed an innumerable amount of variations for the attacking character by removing lcanceling, WDing, DDing etc etc etc etc etc.

The only thing you claimed was added was the airdodge system. Problem is the dashing airdodge you're lauding (if i understand you correctly) is the same as a triangle jump in melee. Unless you're talking FH airdodge into an aerial... but then you lag when you hit the ground. Even still a triangle jump to shuffled aerial accomplishes the same thing in melee.

Other than footstool jumping there was minimal things added to this game which could not be replicated by the melee system already. The fact we didn't replicate them in competitive melee probably points to more effective strategies which trump brawl's limitations.

The triangle jump existed and was effective in melee but was used minimally because we could shield WD instead.

Now we no longer have that option.

However, the one thing Kye didn't argue was the addition of 10 some characters and more stages too.

This does not invalidate his argument, even though we cannot tell which game will be the deepest right now because of that, we can be relatively sure each character will be immeasurably more shallow than if they still played by the melee system.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing I want to harp on is with the removal of lag cancels on aerials, the platform system which was developed in the last couple years of melee and is universal to smash 64 is now obsolete. Falling through platforms and aerialing or running off and aerialing is a bad idea (compared to what it was in melee & 64).

I for one really enjoyed the options caused by this style of play in smash (even though i wasn't very good at it myself) and feel the removal of this system is another reason why brawl feels more like a crappy version of a more traditional fighter.

They've taken out the options and taken out what made smash unique.

 

[Mankosuki]

I'm amazed that Fenrir is the only Cake Eatter (aside from Rohins who got it way early) that actually sees potential in Brawl. Especially at Exarch saying he doesn't want to explore the game himself and would rather come in later on using what others discover for him. But if it's not fun, it's not fun.

In any case, my next tournament will probably be May 17th or 24th (I have things to go to on the 3rd & 10th) and I intend to have both Brawl & Melee.

Preliminary Schedule:
- Brawl Teams (but no waiting for people to arrive since I will have housing available at the venue, so no Johns.)
- Lunch break & continued warm ups / friendlies. ($6 large pizzas, $3 for 4 slices - Free drinks)
- Melee Singles while at the same time having Brawl Randoms. (separate rooms available if needed)
- Brawl singles & if anybody wants Crew Battles or something.

No Melee teams, unless it's the last thing we do.

 

[Renth]

there's too many people making fun of others because, they say they don't want to pick up the game until later. Once everything has been discovered, to those people i ask when did you start? How much was spoon fed to you years ago when melee started getting competitive?

SSBB? more like SSBS right now. I said it before i'll say it a million times. If it wasn't for The Cape and UmbreonMow i'd probably still be in Scrubville in Melee. They got me started off and I went and did my own thing. Everyone needs somewhere to start and some people don't want to play it without everything discovered, keeping in mind not everything in melee was discovered.

 

[hungrybox]

i like to talk about keyboards

 

[Mankosuki]

Which is why everybody is spoiled and want Melee skills to transfer directly to Brawl. They learned the game back when there were already people good at Melee around to teach them it. I certainly didn't have any training in Pensacola, I had to teach myself how to play and I had fun doing it. Yeah it helps to copy what you see on smashboards, but what's wrong with being on the developing side as well?

 

[SynikaL]

I love how you can eloquently make your points and make them sound so valid, but completely ignore things. I dislike when people keep saying that "so much was taken out from Melee" without completing that sentence.

Fine.

So much was taken out of Melee, but outside the new Shield System, very little of what was added expands the game in any new or interesting directions in relation to Melee. That's partially subjective, of course. What you and I find interesting may/may not ever be similar. At this point, the new Air Dodge is more "different" than it is "better". Remember, Melee's AD had a complex relationship with that game's physics. As such, Melee's AD gave us things such as Wavedash and Platform Dash. Outside of escaping follow-ups and approach potential (which will become just as risky as Rolling towards someone at high levels when people start getting good at this game), the new Air Dodge doesn't add much. If I'm wrong, you're going to have to tell or show me.




I'm not ignoring anything, it's just impossible for me to touch upon every facet of this debacle in every post. Therefore, there will always be holes in my arguments, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any real holes in my logic, as it is pillared by universals as strictly as I know to be familiar with them. Ultimately, anyone looking to provide a solid rebuttal to my statements will need to start there, at the foundations of human thought, if you deem my application of these truths to be faulty or unsuitable.


Of course, on the internet, people aren't willing to address the root, so specific urges and anonymity compel them to offer baseless arguments anyway.


*edit*
Now, to say we don't know everything about Brawl is equitable and can be argued. While not quite an absolute truth (we very well may know everything about Brawl), empirical evidence suggests unearthing the finer aspects of a competitive title takes much, much time. Unfortunately, I hold to the conviction that the philosophy governing the development of Brawl was a casual-oriented one, and empirical observation of the game's mechanics support this. Furthermore, we actually have a proven and time tested higher standard for competitive play in Melee. So until Brawl gives me a valid reason to make the switch, fvck Brawl.


-Kimosabae

 

[Fenrir VII]

because the advantage in brawl is inherently to the turtling character.

You keep saying this as if it's law and I couldn't disagree more. I'll just put it like that. I'm not a fan of longwinded posts saying the same things over and over.

The removed an innumerable amount of variations for the attacking character by removing lcanceling, WDing, DDing etc etc etc etc etc.

How exactly does lcancel help against campers? the others I can kinda see, but their use is limited anyway. imo, the new airdodge is quite a bit more useful against the camping game than anything you just stated,....

The only thing you claimed was added was the airdodge system. Problem is the dashing airdodge you're lauding (if i understand you correctly) is the same as a triangle jump in melee. Unless you're talking FH airdodge into an aerial... but then you lag when you hit the ground. Even still a triangle jump to shuffled aerial accomplishes the same thing in melee.

Other than footstool jumping there was minimal things added to this game which could not be replicated by the melee system already. The fact we didn't replicate them in competitive melee probably points to more effective strategies which trump brawl's limitations.

That was an example. Of course I'm not going to sit here and waste my time saying everything that was taken out and everything that was put in...that's obvious. Of course they added more, which I enjoy, such as the reverse grabs, reverse jump-aerial game, the buffer system....etc etc etc. you can't expect me to list them all. the airdodge one was the most instantly obvious one, in my opinion.

I'm not "lauding" any particular use of the airdodge itself...I think there are really good uses and bad uses for it out there...but the fact that it was changed opens up a lot of option in the air now...so it's not "get knocked into the air and never be able to come back down...ever."

a particular Melee example of this is Zelda vs DK. Zelda does well against him until she gets hit into the air, and then you never, ever can get back down. DI? she falls too slowly to get around DK's aerial game anyway. Airdodge? dodges one hit, then DK hits the ground and can jump back up again and hit her. upB? too much lag on startup, and you're usually too high to hit the ground anyway...so he continues it.

You can say "everything you can do in Brawl, you can do in Melee", but that's simply not true. little changes in Brawl, such as the huge airdodge change completely change the way this game is played...

even though we cannot tell which game will be the deepest right now because of that, we can be relatively sure each character will be immeasurably more shallow than if they still played by the melee system.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing I want to harp on is with the removal of lag cancels on aerials, the platform system which was developed in the last couple years of melee and is universal to smash 64 is now obsolete. Falling through platforms and aerialing or running off and aerialing is a bad idea (compared to what it was in melee & 64).

I for one really enjoyed the options caused by this style of play in smash (even though i wasn't very good at it myself) and feel the removal of this system is another reason why brawl feels more like a crappy version of a more traditional fighter.

They've taken out the options and taken out what made smash unique.

Again, you're making generalized, sweeping statements such as "we can be relatively sure each character will be immeasurably more shallow than if they still played by the melee system." That's beneath you, Thomas. We can't be sure of that...and to be utterly honest, in just playing it now, I personally believe Brawl has the potential to be the deeper game...people are just unwilling to let go of their lag cancels.

Now you actually have to *gasp* learn which aerials have basically no lag and which ones lag...that's not a big deal...and it adds to what the player has to be considering...
for example, with Ike...his fair has more horizontal range and is the overall better aerial, but it lags when you land. His nair, however, doesn't lag and has more...circular range around him. You can go for the fair for spacing and if you guess you'll land a hit, but it's a bad choice for just rushing... I know that characters like Samus had these "little lag" aerials in melee...I think that's irrelevant.

Running off aerials are not bad ideas now...you just have to know what moves are safe and when and where to use each one. That's not a bad thing, either...

I'm not sure how "they have taken out what made Smash unique" is a valid statement. If you hadn't noticed...not too many other fighters have any sort of edge guarding, percentage, varying combos based on percentage, kill zones off the side, etc etc etc.
If you seriously equate l-canceling to Smash...then, well, I'm sorry. I personally don't think the game needs it. And again, I LIKE the fact that people can't get by on speed alone now.

I'm amazed that Fenrir is the only Cake Eatter (aside from Rohins who got it way early) that actually sees potential in Brawl. Especially at Exarch saying he doesn't want to explore the game himself and would rather come in later on using what others discover for him.

This quote pretty much sums everything up for me. I can understand people not liking Brawl...I can understand some people will quit...some will continue...some will always like melee better...that all makes sense. And I'm sad that most of my crew dislikes Brawl so much...that kinda sucks for me...when I still am really excited to see what it becomes.

Thomas and Fred have both made incredibly valid arguments in here...and I respect them both for it, because they are willing to just debate this in this thread...and that shows a lot for both of them. <3 my crew.

However, Thomas...I'm pretty disappointed in the later part of this quote. You blatantly saying things like "call me when it gets faster" "I don't want to develop my own metagame, I'll just take other's, and then make it mine" "I'm coming to the tournament....and bringing Melee"....added to the fact that you make most of your arguments without playing good people...or even really trying to set up your wii internet.

Personally, I think that's kind of a blind way of thinking about it. You are basically saying, "I don't like Brawl from the start, so I'm never going to try to like it...until it's more like Melee" ...and that confuses me.

I mean, you're like my best friend, but I really don't like seeing you this obstinate.

I'm kinda disappointed about it all right now...just whatever...I plan on continuing to have fun with it...no reason not to.

 

[dguy6789]

How do you cancel aerials? I know about the dash upsmash... but nothing I've read has been about canceling lag on aerials. Even edgecanceling was taken out.

For one thing, there is the auto cancel. I am sure most people know about it, but I will explain it briefly. Basically perform an aerial as low to the ground as you can while still having it finish before you land, so you have no move based landing lag. This technique can be used for almost every aerial in the game.

And then there are specific moves with differing lag properties, and I am sure not everything has been discovered.

Lucario's dair has little to no lag already. His nair oddly enough has lag only if you do it and stay in the air for a while, landing cancels the lag from this move.

Wolf's fair is a very laggy aerial that can have the lag significantly cut back by short hopping and performing the aerial immediately. His fair is not the only move in the game that can have the lag canceled this way either, I know some of Falcon's aerials can as well.

It isn't as simple as pushing a trigger and removing the lag from moves in this game, but for those who want to make their character faster, they can do it.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

I know some of Falcon's aerials can as well.

You can basically l cancel his dair and knee which helps alot.

 

[hungrybox]

My theory (which is like many others)

Brawl=Character c-picks

like rock paper scissors

control, stregth, and speed

control beats speed
speed beats strength
strength beats control

actually i have no idea what i speak of.

TIER LIST :D

Go to new thread!

 

[exarch]

I do keep saying that because i've already typed posts defending it and can't see any theoretical argument which disproves it. The removal of the attacker's options from melee means the turtling character has less to worry about and has a larger advantage.

The few ways you could argue otherwise is if you argued the aggressor had the advantage in melee, so the removal of options somehow evens it out. Or perhaps you could argue the magical airdodge (which i believe will become as effective predictable as a roll in higher play) somehow gives the advantage back to the aggressor. Maybe powershielding is now the end all be all to counter camping techniques. These 3 arguments i can see and acknowledge as valid, I just don't agree with them.

Otherwise, there is no argument.

lcanceling improves variations on approach in that you can wait till you're almost at the ground to use an aerial. Plus if you hit with an aerial you can then proceed to combo with it. This leads to significant punishing of the camper, and simply does not exist in brawl.

----------------------------
Reverse grabs existed in melee.
Reverse aerials existed in melee.

For a reverse grab one merely had to Dash cancel then pivot a grab. Not as fast as brawl's "pivot grab" but effectively the same. In closer combat situations one could just DD behind an opponents shield and "reverse grab" them.

Reverse aerials actually come in a couple varieties.
There is the obvious moonwalk to bair.
And for those who couldn't moonwalk effectively, there was always the option of over shooting the opponent and bairing them just as you landed. This is effectively leading in with a bair. I understand if someone does not agree with me here, but it is the same idea for me. The only reason reverse aerials in brawl is even necessary is because many char's fair does not autocancel and their bair will. Unnecessary if they could Lcancel.

The buffer system is a cool idea. I do not take up too much issue with it.
However, it benefits button mashers.
Not that that benefit is not insurmountable by a superior player, but there was absolutely no place in melee for button mashing, which is one of the things which drew me to it.

In melee when I jumped and used an aerial, I was having to take into account the amount of shield stun, the stun time if it hit, the possible DIs of the opponent, and which one of the huge number of buffers i used after landing.
In brawl when I jump with an aerial, I worry about how much lag I'm going to have after it first, and then if I hit or not.
Brawl is just less engaging.

Most running of aerials are a bad idea. Again Brawl only limits me.

Actually I emphasize a high correlation of platform play to smash. Edgeguarding has also been severely nerfed with the amount of ridiculous recoveries. The toning down of two major aspects of smash makes brawl feel less like smash and more like a traditional fighter.

Platforms now are not so much assistants in combos and aggression, but obstacles for someone trying to return to the ground. (yes they served as this in melee too, but the first two functions they served are effectively gone).

As for my sweeping statement, I do realize that I said it, and the fact that I did say relatively in it was just me covering my tracks. However I do firmly hold that opinion at this point in the games development. Melee marth has far more depth than brawl marth, and without the advent of some universal aerial cancel brawl marth will never be more deep. Melee Snake would be far more fun to play than brawl Snake, (unless you like Dash attack upsmashes that much) >_>

added to the fact that you make most of your arguments without playing good people

I've played you.

Spoiler

come on you walked into that

And I was bored with brawl after two hours of playing with you. Sorry, the game is boring.
I'm not willing to spend hours inventing things when I don't enjoy it.
I never sat in training mode and learned how to Shuffle or WD, i tried to learn it in matches when I was having fun. Now not only is training mode boring, individual matches are just not fun.
Stop sandbagging when you're playing me next time and don't let me beat you at all.
Maybe then I'll want to get good enough to where you'd take me seriously.


I TRIED to like Brawl. I really did.
But I don't.

I feel like I've gone from reading LOTR to reading HP.

Sorry for being stubborn, but Brawl sucks.

 

[hungrybox]

ok....

The time it took to roast my "tier list" was about 27 minutes and 44 seconds.

Unless my clock is wrong.

Thomas, Derf, Synikal - i consider you the 3 wise men in a corrupt society.

Bravo. LLM. M4L. LOTR to HP=yes.

 

[derf]

Of course they added more, which I enjoy, such as the reverse grabs, reverse jump-aerial game, the buffer system....etc etc etc. you can't expect me to list them all. the airdodge one was the most instantly obvious one, in my opinion.

you just did list them all.

plus reverse jump aerials certainly did exist in melee and i did them all the time. dash dance toward, then quickly dash dance away, jump and aerial. youll do the aerial with momentum towards your opponent. or if youre luigi for example, wd towards your opponent, lightly tap (or simply hold halfway away) and then jump and aerial

reverse grabbing from an initial dash existed in melee in the form of pivot grabbing. and although this was more difficult to do than in brawl lots of people did master it.

reverse grabbing from a full run is new but imo only marginally useful (except on wifi where its worked on me). "im gonna run halfway across the stage in a straight line all the way through your shield and grab you"...seriously?

ill give you buffering is kinda money

For one thing, there is the auto cancel.

this existed in melee

And then there are specific moves with differing lag properties, and I am sure not everything has been discovered.

Lucario's dair has little to no lag already. His nair oddly enough has lag only if you do it and stay in the air for a while, landing cancels the lag from this move.

this also existed in melee. for example... falcons nair has 7 frames of lag L canceled and is very difficult to grab from a dashdance b/c of its range. it is, however, easily crouch canceled or shield grabbed (using a running shield to get inside his range for example). falcons knee, on the other hand, has 9 frames of lag L canceled, but is practically impossible to shield grab or crouch cancel because of its massive hit-stun. the caveat here is the knee has no range and it easily outspaced and punished

with regard to lucarios nair only lagging if you stay in the air a certain amount of time, i will say this seems cool, but similar things did exist in melee, but possibly in a reduced capacity. the only example i can think of is ness's down air, which auto cancels up to a certain point in its attack animation

super happy funtime edit:

I'm not sure how "they have taken out what made Smash unique" is a valid statement. If you hadn't noticed...not too many other fighters have any sort of edge guarding, percentage, varying combos based on percentage, kill zones off the side, etc etc etc.

i would argue the fact that not many other fighters employ those tactics makes smash unique

furthermore, someone brought up brawls easier powershielding as a counter to campers. while this makes it easier to "get around" campers, it does nothing to discourage/punish camping because powershielding doesn't actually reflect projectiles. thus, no discouragment to camping

4am edit: my bad thomas i remade a lot of your points. i was in a hurry to watch the basketball games and only skimmed your post

 

[dguy6789]

Yeah I am aware that most of those techniques existed in melee, just saying you can still do it in Brawl. Mainly for the people who say there is "no" way to cancel the lag in moves because l canceling is gone.

 

[RockCrock]

You're not canceling the lag if you don't initiate the lag.

Also - arguing is pointless. No one's mind is changing. You all are wasting your breath.

 

[SynikaL]

Since it seem like this thread is dying, I'd just like to add that I think the Buffer System is one of the absolute worst aspects of Brawl:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147599

It adds nothing to the game that could not be achieved through simply refining one's timing in specific areas and the player can only do so much to mitigate its effects on their character. Fastfalling and Spacing are just two examples that are hurt dearly by it.

Really, the very idea that I must apply extra mental efforts in any fighting game -- nay, any videogame, in order for my character to function under my own pretenses is absurd, and anyone that finds merit in such a thing I deem equally absurd.

*edit*

Oh, almost forgot. Guini gets mad props for deciding to host a Melee tournament. Maybe I'll have a reason to continue playing videogames after all.


-Kye

 

[derf]

the buffer system does enable first frame turn around grabs and jabs after landing from an aerial as well as things like dash attacks and reverse jabs out of shield....so it does add some stuff. you're definitely right though, reducing the need to actually learn move-specific timings is a huge weakness. idk i guess i felt a need to agree with my crewmates on something...this whole situation really is tough because i fundamentally disagree with people i really like on a common, uniting factor in our lives.

and rock a lot of my arguing in this thread is a vent for my frustration over the whole situation. so it does serve that purpose. plus debating (not that i'm capable of real debating) seems more about the exchange of information than it does convincing people that you're right or wrong. although i'd certainly like it if i (or more likely syn) could do that

edit: i read syn's link and agree with his statement even more. (i didn't realize some of those mistakes were a result of the buffer system). a further example of its drawbacks is that now when you mash buttons to break out of a grab, you immediately do some ******** move that gets you owned(i do luigi's up and side b). anyone reading the link, dont read past the original post as the rest of the article is very frustrating except for a tidbit that running destroys muscles used for competitive swimming...

also this

Which is why everybody is spoiled and want Melee skills to transfer directly to Brawl.

I'm going so far as to say this flat isn't true. theres bound to be some lingering attraction to the old game, but this is not my beef with brawl. The general consensus of all the old melee players who hate brawl is that if it was a good game we would have moved on regardless of how different it was. clearly you think its a good game and me/exarch/synikal do not. to dismiss our arguments behind a blanket statement like this frustrates the hell out of me