Various Samus Tech (Z-air --> F-smash Update)

[KayJay]

So people are starting to DI correctly backwards after Samus's D-throw.

If you play against someone like that, RAR B-Air after D-Throw indeed is viable:

Also that good DI made me try some stuff and I found something you could call a Super missile frametrap, it's simple yet very effective:

It can force the opponent to use his second jump (if he airdodges to the ground, he will eat the missile) so you have an advantage.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

That is nice. It's sorta like a Perfect Pivot, right? I'm not up to times on terminology.

 

[Afro Smash]

This is theory craft but if we go to tether trump somone and they buffer a roll on, can we punish with ledge drop jump CS before they can shield?

 

[Xygonn]

This is theory craft but if we go to tether trump somone and they buffer a roll on, can we punish with ledge drop jump CS before they can shield?

Probably we can get it against Samus but not anyone with a normal roll speed.

 

[Afro Smash]

Well lets say we get there 5 frames late, they're stuck on the ledge for 18 more frames before they can roll, we can come off in 7 frames so we're off while they still have 11 frames on the ledge, double jump Charge shot should take 21 frames (assuming jumping takes as long on the ground as in the air). So they'd be 10 frames in to their Roll on as the CS was released, then it's all dependent on the frame they become vulnerable and the size + speed of the CS. (Hopefully that made sense/is right)

 

[Xygonn]

Well lets say we get there 5 frames late, they're stuck on the ledge for 18 more frames before they can roll, we can come off in 7 frames so we're off while they still have 11 frames on the ledge, double jump Charge shot should take 21 frames (assuming jumping takes as long on the ground as in the air). So they'd be 10 frames in to their Roll on as the CS was released, then it's all dependent on the frame they become vulnerable and the size + speed of the CS. (Hopefully that made sense/is right)

I'm pretty sure double jump comes out frame 1 and gives you a specific new velocity, I don't think there is an equivalent to jump squat. That said, i don't know how long a ledge release is (1 frame?). Not sure how long it takes to get over the ledge, but it doesn't seem like a long time. And you have to not accidentally reverse the CS. I don't have a capture card or anything. I was just being pessimistic and sarcastic about it. This could be a very solid option.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

This tech has been talked about before, but I have recently found great use for it in ledge play. It also allows us to cancel the landing lag from double jumped aerials. So if you drop a bomb at the ledge, and double jump into an aerial you can cancel the landing lag. This is actually really useful for fair because you can get some nice low hitboxes then just pop yourself back off stage if you miss instead of suffering the 30 frames of landing lag, or toward your opponent if you land all the hits. It's also not half bad for dair and bair.

I was messing around with this and as far as I can tell it doesn't cancel landing lag, and you only bomb off if you auto cancel. It might remove autocancel landing frames though?

edit: unrelated 2nd post:

Reading the roll trump evade and firing CS works. Tested on Sheik, this should also cover get up attack (not that anyone would use it but..)

Turn Around B isn't an issue if you drop from the ledge with down. It's tight but probably the most consistent option.

 

[Xygonn]

I was messing around with this and as far as I can tell it doesn't cancel landing lag, and you only bomb off if you auto cancel. It might remove autocancel landing frames though?

edit: unrelated 2nd post:

Reading the roll trump evade and firing CS works. Tested on Sheik, this should also cover get up attack (not that anyone would use it but..)

Turn Around B isn't an issue if you drop from the ledge with down. It's tight but probably the most consistent option.

I'll have to take a video maybe so you can see what I'm talking about. I'm fairly sure that I would have normal landing lag if it wasn't for the bomb. I'm coming from too deep off stage for fair to autocancel.

Related to your edit, NICE! Glad my pessimism was wrong.

 

[leiraD]

Question: does touch of depth work on all characters? Also, does anyone know if it works on dreamland? The orientation of the platforms seems conducive to the motion required, but I wasn't sure if the wind adversely affected the technique.

 

[Afro Smash]

the platforms being slightly higher are more likely to affect in than the wind, i imagine the wind would be capable of messing it up tho, especially combined with DI

 

[Tonetta]

Question: does touch of depth work on all characters? Also, does anyone know if it works on dreamland? The orientation of the platforms seems conducive to the motion required, but I wasn't sure if the wind adversely affected the technique.

The Touch of Depth does not work on all characters as is depicted in the video, however it does work on all characters in battlefield in other variations (starting on the first platform or top platform.) The technique is a bit unreliable because you can't di for your opponent to go towards the middle of the stage, but depending on di you can also start from anywhere on battlefield so long as you fastfall between uair 1-2 to be able to touch down on the top platform in time after uair 2.

Now the good news is that the technique not only works on battlefield, but it also works on dreamland, delfino, duck hunt, halberd, Kongo Jungle (if that stage is legal where you play) Smashville, and Town and City. Obviously Smashville is very timing dependent and T&C/Duck Hunt requires similar poor DI that battlefield requires while ALSO being dependent on the right starting location, but there are areas on delfino, duck hunt, and kongo that the opponents' di does not matter so long as you can predict it, with delfino's being "most of the stage".

I did most of my testing on battlefield, and found that heavy fast-fallers are the biggest offenders (other than good opponent di) when it comes to surviving this technique, specifically roy and dedede (there are others but these are the two that gave me the most problems.)

 

[Boney]

Not a tech per se, but wasn't sure if I should make a thread about it.
I noticed how up b oos goes beats multi hits aerials these past few days. Since aerial moves don't clank you can easily interrupt them with an up b oos.

I'm not sure if it works on all, some might have to be frame perfect, but I had success with it against Falco's Mewtwo's and Lucas' nair consistently, mostly on platforms. It might be worth looking into which ones can't be done with, maybe Pikachu's fair is to fast or something, but if the hurtbox is there, you'll probably beat it.

 

[Afro Smash]

I know it usually doesn't beat Fox's Dair :[ I'm not really sure the rule on it tbh, might be if you hit them like the frame inbetween their multiihits or something

 

[Xygonn]

Upb is a little disjointed, it has the best disjoint toward the edges. It's better to try to hit with the side of it than to come from straight below.

 

[Afro Smash]

Example of the Low Charge Shot hitting below the stage to catch Bowser's recovery, I believe this also has the potential to hit people on their one frame of vulnerability after a ledge snap, though timing is strict.

Also I'm calling it the Skimmed Charge Shot because Low Charge Shot could also mean a charge shot with a small amount of charge.

 

[Tonetta]

The timing isn't extremely strict on that, you have like a quarter second window to hit all the characters due to the sheer size of the cs, the hitbox for the 1 frame is weird. At the bottom I'll post the video that shows where the hitbox exactly is.

Would there be an interest in a video or list showing what projectiles zair counters? If yes, any volunteers to go through the list with me?

 

[MegaRiff]

Is anyone else having a hard time inputting dash to pivot up smash? I can't seem to be able to do it anymore.

Edit: Nevermind. Got it.

 

[KayJay]

Example of the Low Charge Shot hitting below the stage to catch Bowser's recovery, I believe this also has the potential to hit people on their one frame of vulnerability after a ledge snap, though timing is strict.

Also I'm calling it the Skimmed Charge Shot because Low Charge Shot could also mean a charge shot with a small amount of charge.

Try it in training against Sheik's Up B.

 

[Tonetta]

Hadn't fully explored all the options out of this yet, percent ranges on this connecting on falcon is 12%-16% for a downthrow sh uair starter (any earlier and the dair follow up won't make for a tech chase and any higher will send them too high up) and 15%-39% on the downthrow fh uair starter. 22-30% seems to be the sweet spot that lets me do downthrow > uair > dair > dair > uair > fair and have all the hits connect which does a whopping 77% in training mode.

 

[KayJay]

D-air gets airdodged after U-air, one of my classics is to bait the airdodge. Wait for the airdodge, then input D-air (fast fall may be required). I follow up with U-Smash/U-Air/Up B, depending on the situation.

 

[Tonetta]

Just spent 20 mins in the lab with cloudy from the skype group, it seems if you get it frame perfect it's a true combo, otherwise you do get air dodged.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Just going by the combo counter and with a ragdoll target I could never get d-throw -> up-air -> d-air to connect. Despite up-air -> d-air being a true combo otherwise out of several other combo starters.
It's definitely a very tight string, the fact that d-throw -> up-air -> CS fully connects as a true combo means the frame advantage is there, since d-air is just a handful of frames slower than CS.
It's the relative proximity of you and the target in the air and size of the initial CS hitbox which allows it to fully connect and register in the counter.
It IS a true combo if they DI into you (you can easily test this yourself, registers). In fact at some point I wanted to list all the true combos that can only exist with bad opponent DI, or at least some basic ones.
As @ KayJay has pointed out if you have a pathological airdodger - who just mashes it like a loon and thinks he's good - then you go for d-air mixup.
I'm finding for those people who hard DI outwards my most recent mixup is to simply pummel. Pummelling makes people mash and if they don't use the stick to mash you get a lot of pummels in, particularly circa 70-80% when d-throw-> dash -> f-air starts getting iffy.

 

[KayJay]

Just spent 20 mins in the lab with cloudy from the skype group, it seems if you get it frame perfect it's a true combo, otherwise you do get air dodged.

Just tested it and like I expected, it's easy to airdodge especially when your opponent DIs away and this will always happen.
Sadly not viable against good opponents.
Heck, even D-Throw to U-Air won't happen if they DI quick & correct. That's where my super missile frametrap gets into the spotlight:

Spoiler

 

[JAZZ_]

I've got a question.
Lately I've been extremely good at powerdshielding attacka followed by an immediate Jab 1. Unfortunately I just don't know what to follow up with it. The opponent either gets tripped or pushed at least a leg and a half distance away. I just stand there and repeat. It frustrates me that I'm so great at poking with Jab 1 but still so focussed on defense that I miss so many opportunities. Any help?

 

[MegaRiff]

I've got a question.
Lately I've been extremely good at powerdshielding attacka followed by an immediate Jab 1. Unfortunately I just don't know what to follow up with it. The opponent either gets tripped or pushed at least a leg and a half distance away. I just stand there and repeat. It frustrates me that I'm so great at poking with Jab 1 but still so focussed on defense that I miss so many opportunities. Any help?

Try a down tilt.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I've got a question.
Lately I've been extremely good at powerdshielding attacka followed by an immediate Jab 1. Unfortunately I just don't know what to follow up with it. The opponent either gets tripped or pushed at least a leg and a half distance away. I just stand there and repeat. It frustrates me that I'm so great at poking with Jab 1 but still so focussed on defense that I miss so many opportunities. Any help?

Take a look at what your opponent is doing after your jab connects. Do they button mash to challenge you? Dtilt will beat them. Are they rolling away to retreat? Dash attack will catch their roll. Do they shield and wait for an attack? Crouch cancel your jab and grab their shield. Do they jump and retreat? You might want to send out a super missile and force them to double jump as KayJay pointed out to trap them.

 

[Scream]

I have been perfecting Jab Footstool in my spare time(which little sadly):

I am here to present some cool results vs. Shiek today.
While it is very good against every charachter in the game i wanted to highlight the shiek MU.

Here you go:

BTW the footstool is guaranteed i think.
But it requires a metric ****ton of surgical precision to get because you ahve to follow their DI very presicely.
Also it gets way harder the faster a charachter falls.

All in all an extremely useful edgeuarding tool.

Some charachters are basicly dead after the footstool.

 

[Tumultus]

I have been perfecting Jab Footstool in my spare time(which little sadly):

I am here to present some cool results vs. Shiek today.
While it is very good against every charachter in the game i wanted to highlight the shiek MU.

Here you go:

BTW the footstool is guaranteed i think.
But it requires a metric ****ton of surgical precision to get because you ahve to follow their DI very presicely.
Also it gets way harder the faster a charachter falls.

All in all an extremely useful edgeuarding tool.

Some charachters are basicly dead after the footstool.

Good stuff; basically what you're doing involves pratfalling. Samus' jab 1 causes prat falls on both playforms and on ledges which involve a set amount of hitstun/unavoidable missed techs. They actually go over Samus at the end of this video, definitely watch it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_9RbkdZTuw

 

[Scream]

Good stuff; basically what you're doing involves pratfalling. Samus' jab 1 causes prat falls on both playforms and on ledges which involve a set amount of hitstun/unavoidable missed techs. They actually go over Samus at the end of this video, definitely watch it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_9RbkdZTuw

Oh yeah i knew the Video, and the Tech name.

I'm just presenting useful applications

 

[Tonetta]

This list is incomplete - I'll be updating this, 10-15 characters per day until it is complete.

Both of these combo's are true and the percents are from a dair that starts at the very top hurtbox of the opponent. If you hit them near their feet, minus 2-8% for the starting true combo, character height/weight dependant. They also assume no rage, adjust accordingly for your current rage. Because it is a missed tech, they can't actually di until they gain control of their character again or get hit again, so regardless of their imput after the missed tech, these combo's WILL hit.

Dair (no tech) into cs (40% damage, possible KO at higher percent ranges and/or stage position dependant). Keep in mind you have to make proper jumps in order to true combo these at various percents. At the start of most of these, it is standing, and at the end of most of these is a fh dj cs that has to be timed extremely well.

Mario: 50-93
Sheik: 62, 75-93
Captain Falcon: 55-126
Donkey Kong: 62-99
Pikachu: 45-109
Diddy Kong: 50-120%
Fox: 42-114
Meta Knight: 43-114
Peach: 67-82
Bowser: 76-107
Yoshi: 55-96
Zero Suit Samus: 49-91
Rob: 57-128
Roy: 57-116
Ike: 60-114

Dair (no tech) into upb kill percents. No di. Assume +2% on the low end for perfect di. Towards the lower 5% of these, you need to jump through them and pick them up at the top of their hurtbox, and towards the last 5% you need to fh dj with perfect timing in order to get these to connect.

Mario: 95-136
Sheik: 82-128
Captain Falcon: 99-147
Donkey Kong: 109-157
Pikachu: 81-127
Diddy Kong: 91-144
Fox: 84-125
Meta Knight: 84-127
Peach: 85-106
Bowser: 101-142
Yoshi: 91-128
Zero Suit Samus: 85-122
Rob: 92-146
Roy: 98-144
Ike: 105-153

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ Tonetta I'm not sure what you're describing - are these not listed in the stickied combo thread or are they somehow different?

 

[Tonetta]

They're listed, but with tech situations putting in a number doesn't quite cover all the available percents for their respective combo's so I'm mapping it out. For example, peach is listed as immune to dair > CS but there is a 15% window in which it does connect.

 

[DungeonMaster]

By all means lab away and post details and feel free to correct my numbers.
Peach is listed as immune to d-air -> CS because that's the standing on the ground version. She's definitely not immune to d-air SH CS or d-air FJ / DJ CS which I think is the window you're describing.

 

[Tonetta]

Your numbers are good, but I'm expanding upon the exact percents these two particular combo's work per character, since when it comes to missed techs, a lot more comes into play than just character weights and heights, for example where the dair connects on the opponents' body. These numbers are recorded at the top of their hurtbox. Also with the second combo, dair to upb works at early as missed tech works, but what is listed are kill percents specifically which is nice information to have readily available so you can consistently perform the correct combo at the correct percents.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yep yep! Glad you are taking an interest! I noticed the location of the d-air impact having a significant effect as far back as Feb - the interplay between the combo window, the auto-cancel and the frame-cancel is difficult to adapt for and so recently I've been eating the full landing lag and trying to go as deep as possible with the d-air. I've been wanting to make slow motion video to figure out the exact differences and how they impact the combo window, I'm positive I get most of my d-air combos from frame cancel and very few from auto-cancel.
What I have been quietly working on for some time now is combo chains. Because doing mental math is hard, and learning combo chains is comparatively easy.
What I mean by chains is knowing that if I connect with combo A, combo B, C, D become available. Anytime you connect with say up-tilt->d-tilt you can do up-tilt-> FJ up-air- >J CS. That can be followed by d-air -> FJ CS for kill.
Yes you can figure out the math to land d-air -> FJ CS but what I've found recently is it's a hell of a lot simpler to know that naturally chains out of up-tilt -> up-smash. (And knowledge of these chains makes Samus look like a god... more to come...).
There will be a big post on this at some point in the complete combo thread, may be awhile still given the other stuff on my plate.

 

[Afro Smash]

Just to warn you the combo meter kinda ****s up combos to do with unteched meteors, if you play vs a real person you'll find they're able to airdodge where it registers as a combo vs a training mode cpu. Not necessarily true of all of them, but be wary going for an up b up high cuz the punish will be huge if they do airdodge

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yep, it's woefully stupidly designed. Up-air does however always connect from my own testing, it always beats the 7 frames or so that they gain above and beyond combo counter. I would love for someone to video test examples in a controlled setting as well, rather than rely on hearsay and my own studies.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

We just learned that jab2 can make opponents pratfall at low % when someone is on a platform above you. If you want to jablock, you can't use jab1. You have to use sourspot ftilt. Works on falcon until 12% without rage.

 

[Afro Smash]

Holding or flicking down after you come out of morph ball saves 7 frames, most useful when applied to shield and d tilt to stop people chasing you down and punishing you, but can be applied to any action

 

[Tonetta]

Isn't that posted somewhere else as well? I remember that being discussed here somewhere