Various Samus Tech (Z-air --> F-smash Update)

[Xygonn]

So how do you do the B reverse CS slide? Is it just a perfect pivot? Because you can't wavebounce the charge shot on the ground either like other neutral b's right? It'd be nice if a few techniques posted here had a more detailed explanation on how to actually do them. No idea how to do the CS ledge drop buffer either.

By the way, not being able to wave bounce charge shot is bs, can Sun Salutation and other charge projectiles do it? No idea why they gimp CS unlike other projectiles on top of gimping Samus close range game as well. An easier run back charge/fire would work wonders in the neutral.


Ledge drop is to push away from the edge. This way you don't immediately fall down instead start falling slowly as if you were at the apex of a jump. What this means is that you're not gonna fall down as much leaving you with the time to do fairs and air dodges into the stage with enough time. Pushing down won't auto cancel them.

And yeah, you van b reverse the charge shot. You can initiate it closer to the ground than bair and nair, but I'm not sure if it'll actually come out faster. The main advantage is having a hitbox out for a longer time (it's not gonna get spot dodged) and it'll travel a longer distance so you can go farther away and keep yourself safer.

I use down for air dodge bair.

 

[Depth_]

So how do you do the B reverse CS slide? Is it just a perfect pivot? Because you can't wavebounce the charge shot on the ground either like other neutral b's right? It'd be nice if a few techniques posted here had a more detailed explanation on how to actually do them. No idea how to do the CS ledge drop buffer either.

By the way, not being able to wave bounce charge shot is bs, can Sun Salutation and other charge projectiles do it? No idea why they gimp CS unlike other projectiles on top of gimping Samus close range game as well. An easier run back charge/fire would work wonders in the neutral.


Ledge drop is to push away from the edge. This way you don't immediately fall down instead start falling slowly as if you were at the apex of a jump. What this means is that you're not gonna fall down as much leaving you with the time to do fairs and air dodges into the stage with enough time. Pushing down won't auto cancel them.

And yeah, you van b reverse the charge shot. You can initiate it closer to the ground than bair and nair, but I'm not sure if it'll actually come out faster. The main advantage is having a hitbox out for a longer time (it's not gonna get spot dodged) and it'll travel a longer distance so you can go farther away and keep yourself safer.

B reverse CS slide is technically just perfect pivot CS. I'll update the thread a bit more later. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Afro Smash]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vsgc-2015102323165845

DEFINITELY need this tech in the OP

 

[KayJay]

The same happened to me on a weekly tourney while trying to do a dirty bomb.

 

[Depth_]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vsgc-2015102323165845

DEFINITELY need this tech in the OP

Chill, I missed up the tech. The correct inputs are Double up taunt, Perfect pivot forward 4 times, perfect pivot back, tipper f-smash.

 

[Afro Smash]

Chill, I missed up the tech. The correct inputs are Double up taunt, Perfect pivot forward 4 times, perfect pivot back, tipper f-smash.

If he's mashing no way do you have time to do that, also you're in stun for less time the higher percent you are

 

[Hark17ball]

If he's mashing no way do you have time to do that, also you're in stun for less time the higher percent you are

Im glad it's like that for them DBombs...
I had a Mario at 55% while I was 97%, DBomb completely changed the tide for the match and everyone around me knew it.

I'm also not stylish enough to try what Depth did haha.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I discovered a new tech. It's called: Don't be greedy

 

[Annihilat®]

If he's mashing no way do you have time to do that, also you're in stun for less time the higher percent you are

That is incredibly stupid, considering you're in all things longer the more damage you have.

 

[Afro Smash]

That is incredibly stupid, considering you're in all things longer the more damage you have.

Well it's becuase if they're at a high percent then you don't need as much time to charge a smash attack etc. to kill them since they'll die to less powerful stuff

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Agreed with Afro. As well, if you break a shield at 0%, you have plenty of time to breathe and come up with a plan to maximize the situation. Other characters don't have "dirty bomb" as an immediate go-to, and even some awesome setups take time Link's bomb setups.

 

[Annihilat®]

Dang, all I wanted was a Dirty Bomb at >200%. Gotta maximize disrespect @ all times. But it probably has a cap to it like rage, hoop damage, staling, Hammer Flip.

 

[Petroklos]

Something I've seen used a lot and not explicitly mentioned here is RetreatingShortHopReverseZair for spacing.

The thing where you run away, do a reverse short hop (or PerfectPivot for less distance traveled? (or or Dash Dance for even shorter distance, actually even gaining ground if enough forward momentum is inputed. great for mixups, or if your enemy reads the Zair tries to outspace it and you read this read?)) and Zair your enemy in the face, then (optional) followup with Charge Attack, or Charge Shot, or other things if you don't suck like I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXfLEB4coU

It's what Depth does here at ~0:13-0:14.



On another note, I'm having trouble doing the lag-free Fair from ledge. It sometimes work but mostly doesn't. Any tips?

 

[Annihilat®]

On another note, I'm having trouble doing the lag-free Fair from ledge. It sometimes work but mostly doesn't. Any tips?

Hit left or right instead of hitting down to drop from the ledge.

 

[Petroklos]

Hit left or right instead of hitting down to drop from the ledge.

That's what I am trying to do. I just can't avoid the landing lag. And sometimes when inputting the Fair with the C-Stick it completely negates my vertical momentum.

 

[Hark17ball]

That's what I am trying to do. I just can't avoid the landing lag. And sometimes when inputting the Fair with the C-Stick it completely negates my vertical momentum.

I still can't do it 100% of the time either. You have to be pretty damn quick with the <-, -> + FAir or you'll get stuck in the lag.

 

[Petroklos]

I still can't do it 100% of the time either. You have to be pretty damn quick with the <-, -> + FAir or you'll get stuck in the lag.

The fact that I train on my 3DS doesn't make it easier either..

Are the <-,-> inputs on a timing similar to a dash dance?

 

[Annihilat®]

It's like trying to do a Samus B-reverse. You'll fail hard when starting out, but it just becomes so easy to pull off. Same with perfect pivots (but I've yet to master those).

 

[Jman3]

Chill, I missed up the tech. The correct inputs are Double up taunt, Perfect pivot forward 4 times, perfect pivot back, tipper f-smash.

This sounds amazing... I need to try this

 

[Annihilat®]

Z-air into S-smash would work out a bit more if the first hit of Z-air hits like ZSS's. No KBG on the first hit, but the second hit has a little bit.

 

[Petroklos]

The fact that I train on my 3DS doesn't make it easier either..

Are the <-,-> inputs on a timing similar to a dash dance?

So a small update on this. I've found out that on the 3ds, pulling the stick backwards only slightly, like doing a Tilt attack and then immediately smashing it forwards, like doing a Smash attack makes the lagless FAir from ledge work 100% of the time for me (when done fast enough)


Also on a semi unrelated note, I've been trying a thing. At 0%, Short Hop, DAir, Fastfall, UTilt (or turnaround UTilt if you land behind your target), Jab1, Grab. It's not true and both DAir and UTilt can be teched but it's a 30% without the damage from the throw and followups, reaching 65% with DThrow, UAir, UAir, UpB and it looks cool, especially if you land behind your target.

You can also crouch cancel Jab1 to make this faster? IASA frames? I don't know enough about these..

 

[Xygonn]

I still can't do it 100% of the time either. You have to be pretty damn quick with the <-, -> + FAir or you'll get stuck in the lag.

That's what I am trying to do. I just can't avoid the landing lag. And sometimes when inputting the Fair with the C-Stick it completely negates my vertical momentum.

To do a lagless fair, the easiest thing to do is:
1) set c stick to tilts so that aerials on the cstick don't kill your momentum, besides having utilt and dtilt on the stick is way nicer than having usmash and dsmash
2) set a shoulder button to jump (not as good on GCC, but it works just fine)
3) as soon as you push back on your control stick to release the ledge, hit the shoulder jump button and the c-stick toward the stage.

This allows extremely consistent lagless fair from the ledge.

 

[Hark17ball]

To do a lagless fair, the easiest thing to do is:
1) set c stick to tilts so that aerials on the cstick don't kill your momentum, besides having utilt and dtilt on the stick is way nicer than having usmash and dsmash
2) set a shoulder button to jump (not as good on GCC, but it works just fine)
3) as soon as you push back on your control stick to release the ledge, hit the shoulder jump button and the c-stick toward the stage.

This allows extremely consistent lagless fair from the ledge.

I just did this like 10 times in a row thank you so much. I always had the C stick on tilts, just not the jump on the shoulder button.

 

[Xygonn]

I just did this like 10 times in a row thank you so much. I always had the C stick on tilts, just not the jump on the shoulder button.

It also makes upb oos a breeze. Instead of sliding from jump to special, you can just hold up and hit shoulder jump then special really fast.

 

[Hark17ball]

It also makes upb oos a breeze. Instead of sliding from jump to special, you can just hold up and hit shoulder jump then special really fast.

I had always designated the Y button as my shield for quicker OoS. But occasionally my thumbs would* stumble I feel like this will be a lot better

 

[Petroklos]

To do a lagless fair, the easiest thing to do is:
1) set c stick to tilts so that aerials on the cstick don't kill your momentum, besides having utilt and dtilt on the stick is way nicer than having usmash and dsmash
2) set a shoulder button to jump (not as good on GCC, but it works just fine)
3) as soon as you push back on your control stick to release the ledge, hit the shoulder jump button and the c-stick toward the stage.

This allows extremely consistent lagless fair from the ledge.

Thanks, I'll try the timing. I already have the left trigger as jump. Also now I know why I get the "no momentum" thing on the 3DS (can't rebind c-stick) but never on the WiiU (tilts on CStick 24/7), thanks!

 

[Xygonn]

Touch of death works from platform drop uair. I just realized this today. At the beginning of a match on BF charge, buffer shield drop, uair x 5 to upb is a thing.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Touch of death works from platform drop uair. I just realized this today. At the beginning of a match on BF charge, buffer shield drop, uair x 5 to upb is a thing.

Doesn't your opponent need around 8%+ for upair to knock back far enough to send into a tumble, or even knock up far enough to start the combo? That's what I've always thought.

 

[Xygonn]

Doesn't your opponent need around 8%+ for upair to knock back far enough to send into a tumble, or even knock up far enough to start the combo? That's what I've always thought.

Depends on "magic number" most likely. I was testing on a ZSS at 0%.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Depends on "magic number" most likely. I was testing on a ZSS at 0%.

Yep, it's very narrow, stage dependent, aerial follow up combo. Everything I just said will be very clear soon.

 

[Pyreeze]

Yep, it's very narrow, stage dependent, aerial follow up combo. Everything I just said will be very clear soon.

Ok, so I don't know know if this has been talked about yet and I don't know where to put it. I am a huge fan of short hop Dair. I found this little optimization where you can fast fall after it comes out to not only land faster but to combo into things that you normally can't. Sorry that it's a replay, I don't own a capture card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpFNZ6dSsx8

 

[DungeonMaster]

Pyreeze I'm really interested in your optimized D-air - what are your inputs? I see the fast fall twinkles in places within the D-air near the end of the arm hit, you're hitting consistently the first autocancel frame. How?
Can you hit the electric rodent at that height?

 

[Afro Smash]

Pyreeze I'm really interested in your optimized D-air - what are your inputs? I see the fast fall twinkles in places within the D-air near the end of the arm hit, you're hitting consistently the first autocancel frame. How?
Can you hit the electric rodent at that height?

Nair and Dair you can fastfall just after the apex and still autocancel, and no it doesn't hit Pika

 

[Pyreeze]

Pyreeze I'm really interested in your optimized D-air - what are your inputs? I see the fast fall twinkles in places within the D-air near the end of the arm hit, you're hitting consistently the first autocancel frame. How?
Can you hit the electric rodent at that height?

For executing it, I jump with Y and THROW my thumb down on the c stick. My visual cue to start the fast fall is when I see the completed arc of the attack. So when you SH Dair you are stuck in the move until you land. But I noticed that you can cancel it only after the move completley comes out, and unfortunately the nature of lagless SH dair is that you have to use it immeditaely or only delay slightly after jumping so this can't solve our problem with short characters. BUT I do believe that this can give us more time for combos on taller characters. This alternate can be more practical/safe as opposed to using dair and grounding yourself immediatley like you do in your true combo video. I'm actually gonna use that video to see what percents your grounding combos with dair work at and do some labbing on my own so we can make dair more usable and, well, optimize it.

 

[samosa]

For executing it, I jump with Y and THROW my thumb down on the c stick. My visual cue to start the fast fall is when I see the completed arc of the attack. So when you SH Dair you are stuck in the move until you land. But I noticed that you can cancel it only after the move completley comes out, and unfortunately the nature of lagless SH dair is that you have to use it immeditaely or only delay slightly after jumping so this can't solve our problem with short characters. BUT I do believe that this can give us more time for combos on taller characters. This alternate can be more practical/safe as opposed to using dair and grounding yourself immediatley like you do in your true combo video. I'm actually gonna use that video to see what percents your grounding combos with dair work at and do some labbing on my own so we can make dair more usable and, well, optimize it.

I want to add to this that doing these down airs are a good tool to bait your opponent into doing something, opponents think they can punish and dash in but you are actually pretty safe and a quick jab will get them off you.

 

[Pyreeze]

DungeonMaster In an absolute frame perfect world, when you dair and immediatley ground yourself, its 39 frames where SH FF dair is 35. Meteor Dair comes out frame 19 so it comes down to how long does it take for us to recover. Grounding takes 20 to recover while FF takes us 16 to reach the ground. This means that when doing low percent dair true combos we can turn D tilt into F Smash. In addition, using the mobility of a SH Dair can position you for a sweet spot F smash for overall more damage. AND at mid percents it can combo very comfortably into CS, and unless the smash attacks in the combo video were frame perfect, we can turn all of those into CS too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CYpJ6Ww7Qk

In this video, I directly paralelled your video with the combo on Sheik being dair into Dtilt and with Rosalina being dair into UpTilt. So against the Sheik, I wanted to show that SH Dair out of charge is a viable offensive way to get out of Charge and that with the movement of Dair can set up for a sweet spot smash. For Rosalina, I wanted to show that it can combo at around mid percents into CS. Again, it's a replay so I can't prove to you guys that they are true, you're just gonna have to take my word for it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Pyreeze yep if we had a way to consistently nail that auto-cancel at the lowest possible end like you describe it does offer the same as frame cancel, which is just fantastic and extends the range of all combos downwards as people have noticed in the combo thread. The difficulty is if you miss, just by a bit, you get eat the 20 + 16 and it just sucks. When you do things like shiek f-air strings, it's like an automatic machine, you don't need to think or time things perfectly, it's very simple taps on the controller, braindead easy. I've never been able to do that with Samus with anywhere near the same consistency, because it's so few frames for things to go to hell. I was hoping for a magic bullet technique

 

[Xygonn]

You have to add 4 frames for hard landing, and you lose the frame cancel frames of hitstun. Frame cancelled is the optimized version.

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah fastfall autocancel dair increases the range big time on a lot of combos as it allows you to catch fastfallers with FH Up Air > Up B/CS

We have so much kill potential from Dair I really need to start using it in tourney matches

 

[Afro Smash]

Izaw bringing some new tech almost as exciting as Depth's D Throw Roll

http://oddshot.tv/shot/mr-rsmash-20160207191554738