• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

USB Gecko is the new Action Replay! (added potential goals)

Status
Not open for further replies.

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Nothing is going to get done on this thread here. This thread has become useful for two things:
1) showing people that this even exists
2) a place for people to complain about the fact that it exists

That's... pretty much it. #1 is useful, and #2 propagates #1, but by that same token, as long as #2 continues, it will prevent anything from actually getting done. So what we need is a forum to communicate our ideas (and where we can ban anyone who tries to troll).
 

Doctor Destructo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
200
Location
New York
Would you like to know WHY this is a bad idea?

It's actually rather simple. Let's say that this Brawl modification is completed. Hitstun increased, no auto-sweetspotting, no tripping, etc. Half of the members of Smashboards rejoice and immediate switch over to this new playstyle while the other half, as you want us to, will "play the way we play, and leave you to play your way". So now half of the Smashers are playing Mod-Brawl (Melee 2.0) while the other half are playing regular Brawl.

Do you see the problem yet?

No? Well, now we'll get to the jerks on both sides. You have the Mod-Brawlers who consider themselves "Pro" for playing a more combo-oriented game and will try to push their game onto others.

Example:
"lol ur still playing normie brawl? what a noob go play mod brawl and see how the pros play"

Then you have the normal Brawlers who see themselves as people keeping a tradition alive and playing the game how it's intended to, but think that the Mod-Brawlers are ruining the game and corrupting something pure by cheating and hacking.

Example:
"lololol hacker noob why dont you play the game without cheating or play melee"

With these people on both sides trying to push their ideas upon others (and don't say it's not going to happen. It WILL happen.), the differences between the two types of Brawlers will be more pronounced, and eventually, supplemented by "Pro-Brawl Tournaments" and "Real-Brawl Tournaments", a rift will form between the two types and eventually, one of the groups will leave and start their own forum, completing the split in the Smash Community.

And with two weak communities instead of one stronger one, both Brawl's tourney scene will wither down to obscurity.
 

pyrblaze

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
16
Location
Phoenix
I'm starting to think that it will take more time to look through all the arguments to find the answer to this, BUT

since you are implementing a lot of the melee aspects to the game, will you be trying to put in the wavedashing?

maybe I'm just noobish, but I really considered wavedashing to be actually a glitch, not meant to be put in the game. Of course I actually don't use it, which is probably one of the many reasons that I did not get into the competitive side, and I'm sure that people will be telling me that its a skill not a glitch.

It does take skill to correctly utilize a glitch to your advantage, but glitch after all.
 

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
Would you like to know WHY this is a bad idea?

It's actually rather simple. Let's say that this Brawl modification is completed. Hitstun increased, no auto-sweetspotting, no tripping, etc. Half of the members of Smashboards rejoice and immediate switch over to this new playstyle while the other half, as you want us to, will "play the way we play, and leave you to play your way". So now half of the Smashers are playing Mod-Brawl (Melee 2.0) while the other half are playing regular Brawl.
This is no different than the Casual/Competitive. Except now the line is much more defined, and its easy to keep our Peanut butter out of your chocolate, so to speak.

No? Well, now we'll get to the jerks on both sides. You have the Mod-Brawlers who consider themselves "Pro" for playing a more combo-oriented game and will try to push their game onto others.

Example:
"lol ur still playing normie brawl? what a noob go play mod brawl and see how the pros play"
If you find Brawl boring, then you're most likely going to shift up to the "Modded Brawl".
If you're happy with Brawl currently, then you'll stick to it.
If you want to be a competitive player, you'll play what everyone else is playing.
If you don't care, you'll do whatever you want.

Then you have the normal Brawlers who see themselves as people keeping a tradition alive and playing the game how it's intended to, but think that the Mod-Brawlers are ruining the game and corrupting something pure by cheating and hacking.

Example:
"lololol hacker noob why dont you play the game without cheating or play melee"
It sounds to me like the current plan amounts to "putting a file on the SD Card".
>.> Hardly "hacker" to say the least, never mind cheating. Most of the ModBrawl players will probably be able to trounce the Brawl players that act like this anyways.
With these people on both sides trying to push their ideas upon others (and don't say it's not going to happen. It WILL happen.), the differences between the two types of Brawlers will be more pronounced, and eventually, supplemented by "Pro-Brawl Tournaments" and "Real-Brawl Tournaments", a rift will form between the two types and eventually, one of the groups will leave and start their own forum, completing the split in the Smash Community.

And with two weak communities instead of one stronger one, both Brawl's tourney scene will wither down to obscurity.
SWF was much stronger before Brawl, IMO. Sure, the member count went up, but tons of people are sick of this place, because of the HUGE noob influx from places like GameFAQs, who dropped into the biggest COMPETITIVE community, never mind Smash community, and started tooting their own horns about proper ways to play, with all their "Tiers are for Queers" nonsense and whatnot.

Don't get me wrong, not all the newer members are bigot noobs, but the amount that existed was very minimal before Brawl was released, or close to being released, and now they're just coming out of the woodworks. I'm happy SOME of them aren't lost causes, and as they play they realize what is so wrong with the way Brawl currently is.

Seriously, what you're saying here is just the same idea of splitting Casuals from Competitive players. It ALWAYS happens, it always will, as long as there is one bigot left who refuses to understand the others mindset.
-DD
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
maybe I'm just noobish, but I really considered wavedashing to be actually a glitch, not meant to be put in the game.
Wavedashing was the result of physics. not a glitch in the programming of the game.
A glitch is more like Snake's U tilt having the hitbox of Marth's Fair. *shot*

It's also difficult because it would mean coding the game so that airdodging can be controlled similar as it was in melee as well as a few other things.


Meh I prefer not having it, some characters actually benefit well from it.
Yoshi comes to mind.
 

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
>.> Wavedashing cannot be brought back. At least as far as I see, I don't think it possible.
-DD
 

Wind Owl

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,856
Location
Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA
About airdodging, though, I am wondering if a) it would be possible to limit one airdodge per jump (actually I doubt it as none of the stickers did this and so there would be no reason to make such a value) and b) if we could do that, would we want to?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting we put back Melee's airdodge mechanics (directional/disabled state after performing it) because I know the Gecko is incapable of accommodating that.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
It would require revamping the way airdodging behaves. Wavedashing was simply uusing an airdodge's momentum to slide along the ground with little to no landing lag.

So if it were possible to bring L canceling back which i believe it is then wavedashing is possible but only if airdodging changed


@wind: I think you can. After all the only thing the airdodge appears to do is simply have no limit to the amount of times you can airdodge.
I think maybe its similar to how multiple jumping.
 

Wind Owl

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,856
Location
Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA
Oh, and about dashdancing improvement, lag modifications, even hitbox modifications... I can't even fathom how that would be possible. Lag, in Brawl anyway, seems built into the move's animation rather than being more fluid like when it's L-cancelled in Melee. We would have to find each characters' animations and make some sort of janky Wii animation toolkit... It just seems vastly outside the realm of possibility.

@wind: I think you can. After all the only thing the airdodge appears to do is simply have no limit to the amount of times you can airdodge.
I think maybe its similar to how multiple jumping.
But jumps have a counter variable that decrements every time you jump in the air, and resets whenever you land. Infinite jump codes work because they are constantly setting this value above zero, so the game never thinks you're out of jumps. However, for airdodging, I assume there is no such variable because there is never, under any circumstance (to my knowledge) a limit imposed on number of airdodges in the air (I'm not talking about lag between dodges or hitting the ground, of course).

... I like how I propose an idea and then shoot it down myself. Way to go, me. >_>

EDIT: As far as L-cancelling, as already stated by DragonBlade, our only hope is a debug menu.
 

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
>.> Dash dancing is already possible in Brawl, tripping just screws it over. Lag modifications I believe were already thought to be impossible.
Hit box mods are possible, because if you can make them appear, and make them 1hitKO moves all the time, then I'm sure you can do other stuff too.

<.< Hitstun is probably just the biggest factor here, which is possible, since it exists if you hit someone into the stage and they don't tech it.
-DD
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
@Dragoon: Dashdancing is possible, but not on every frame of the dash animation, and that's what we're talking about. We want to restore DDing to how it was in melee, not the gimped version in brawl, which is no where near as useful.
 

Wind Owl

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,856
Location
Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA
>.> Dash dancing is already possible in Brawl, tripping just screws it over.
True, but one of the listed goals of the project was to make dashdancing travel further, increasing its mindgame potential.
Lag modifications I believe were already thought to be impossible.
Oh, OK.
Hit box mods are possible, because if you can make them appear, and make them 1hitKO moves all the time, then I'm sure you can do other stuff too.
Oh, I was unaware people have been able to do those things.
<.< Hitstun is probably just the biggest factor here, which is possible, since it exists if you hit someone into the stage and they don't tech it.
-DD
I assume you're talking about "airteching" (mashing out of hitstun), which is affected by, well, mashing. I think the actual reason hitstun mods are possible is because there are stickers that do this in SSE.
 

Veg_smashed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
125
Location
San diego Camp pendleton
Any game can be competitive. Flipping coins and seeing who gets more heads can be competitive. That doesn't mean it's good for competition.

who said? it is all about adapting and overcoming my friend...

just like rock paper scissors is a national thing now because people have been playing it FOREVER now.. and learned techs

XD brawl still has time
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
But jumps have a counter variable that decrements every time you jump in the air, and resets whenever you land. Infinite jump codes work because they are constantly setting this value above zero, so the game never thinks you're out of jumps. However, for airdodging, I assume there is no such variable because there is never, under any circumstance (to my knowledge) a limit imposed on number of airdodges in the air (I'm not talking about lag between dodges or hitting the ground, of course).

... I like how I propose an idea and then shoot it down myself. Way to go, me. >_>

EDIT: As far as L-cancelling, as already stated by DragonBlade, our only hope is a debug menu.
Hmm perhaps the game is actually doing something similar?
Giving a variable of zero after airdoding so that it continues forever? It would be a very convenient manner of making it possible to continously airdodge without having to do separate coding.

I don't think we need a debug menu since i mentioned before there is a trainer being developed.
After all the debug menu simply allows you to tell the game what to do and mess with various things similar to how a trainer behaves.

Just depends on how long it takes for it to be finished and updated.
Ah well Zeld is obsessive over things so i'll give it a year and a half before its perfected.
 

Wind Owl

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,856
Location
Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA
Hmm perhaps the game is actually doing something similar?
Giving a variable of zero after airdoding so that it continues forever? It would be a very convenient manner of making it possible to continously airdodge without having to do separate coding.
Well, my concern is that rather than constantly setting a "can airdodge now" variable, they just make it so that any frame of the "aerial idle" animation (falling, I guess) you can just airdodge. Kind of like how you can spotdodge out of shielding animation, and can't do an attack during rolling animation.
 

Tujex

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
576
Location
Memphis. TN
Meh, I just think this is going to take away from Brawl's appeal. I'd much rather stick with what I have than have to mod the crap out of it so it'll be more like Melee. I mean, I'm sure once this game has been given enough playtime, we'll find new glitches and advanced techs that'll make this a "competitive" game.

I'm all for Melee and its fast-paced, catlike reaction, eye twitching gameplay...but in the beginning it was played normally with items on. Until some lucky player slipped onto some advanced techs...we were fiddling with melee just like we are Brawl. I'm more for screwing around with Brawl and learning to be good at it without needing to mod the entire system.
 

Crizthakidd

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,619
Location
NJ
dashdancing in brawl gives me the epic lolz. look so stupid like your a ballerina.


but if we have to use these tools to change stuff like hitstun and all these things... oh man. brawl ftw?
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Well, my concern is that rather than constantly setting a "can airdodge now" variable, they just make it so that any frame of the "aerial idle" animation (falling, I guess) you can just airdodge. Kind of like how you can spotdodge out of shielding animation, and can't do an attack during rolling animation.
Yeah but I am thinking more towards the reset variable mainly because they are idiots.
 

Taymond

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
494
Location
UIUC/Chicago South Suburbs
I'll admit, I enjoyed Melee, ALOT. But I didn't pay 50 bucks to buy a melee expansion pack. I was expecting A BRAND NEW GAME, and I got it. Seriously, when SSB4 comes out, you will all moan about how it isn't like Melee. Same with SSB5. What makes me mad is that you all really do BELIEVE Smash was made for tournies. I know beliefs really can't be right or wrong, but I'll say this, that belief is just simply wrong, there is no other way around it, it's been stated by Sakurai himself, and you can't tell me you know more about Smash then Sakurai, even if he does favor the oh-so-hated "casuals".

You all just set up disapointment for yourselves, thinking Sakurai was going to make a "hardcore" game for the friggen Wii. Also, hacking a game is not how you are supposed to play it, sorry, hate to bust your bubble, but it's true. Anyway, this doesn't matter, since you won't be able to play Brawl anyway due to Nintendo bricking your Wii due to system update. Then I'll sit back and watch how you all complain how it's Nintendo's fault.
I just wanna try to clear up a few things...

We know why Brawl is the way that it is, and we understand that for Nintendo, that was the right move. We know that, obviously, the game can't cater to the competitive community. That'd be silly. We're just as aware as you of this fact. We don't think Smash was made for tournies. We know.

Knowing this, we become aware that we have the tools to make a more competitively-geared sequel to Melee. We know **** well that it's not the developer's responsibility or even in his best interests to give us the sequel we want, but we become aware that we may not need them to, that we might be able to make just that on our own.

What is this "supposed to play it," hmm? I say that's garbage. Why should we care about developer's intent when we're perfectly clear that the developer's intent included ignoring us? We're a forgotten child, why should we care about what the creator's intent was? We've got our own intent, and we'd like to act on that. If we have the means to make something that would satisfy us out of Brawl, why shouldn't we?

We KNOW why Brawl is Brawl and not Melee 2.0. We can't possibly truly disparage the creators for making Brawl instead of Melee 2.0, we know that. But why do we have to accept that? Why do we have to accept that we simply HAVE to play Brawl now, because that's what we were given? That's just stupid. We don't have to accept the current situation if we don't like it and we can change it.

Just a few final notes to common one-liner <10 post count people:

This project is not trying to replace Brawl.

The majority of people who participate in any "Melee 2.0" that this project creates will still play regular Brawl.

The majority of people supporting this project actually do like Brawl.


We were hoping for a sequel, and we got a brand new game. There's nothing wrong with that, we have no control over what the developers decide to make. It's a pretty good new game, even. It's fun, I like it, we like it. But it's got a few problems here and there, we think. We didn't get a sequel, and that's fine, but we still would like one, and if we can make one, then why shouldn't we?

@ all the "If you like Melee better go play Melee" comments I just wanna say this: I don't wanna go play Melee. I'd like to play Mawl.. or.. Brelee. I'd like to play something that doesn't quite exist right now. I'd like to play a midway point, in a manner of speaking, between Melee and Brawl.
 

XEN2.0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
15
Location
Ontario, Canada
Well, my concern is that rather than constantly setting a "can airdodge now" variable, they just make it so that any frame of the "aerial idle" animation (falling, I guess) you can just airdodge. Kind of like how you can spotdodge out of shielding animation, and can't do an attack during rolling animation.
I hope that your theory is inccorect, but this would make sence. Especially since Sakurai has done every friggin thing possible until now so that brawl will not be competitive, this is probobly correct. But only time can tell.....
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
My response at the go play melee comments.

It doesn't have sonic T_T

meh im stil on the fence with the hacks though.Mainly a few people have voiced concerns other than "GO PLAY MELEE PEEPEE FACE!"


Executive deserves a cookie.
THat made me giggle a bit.
 

falco451

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
7
Everyone in this topic has their fingers in their ears going NYANYANYANYANYA NI HAO NYAN.
 

Me2NiK

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
9
Location
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Now, see, here's the thing.
I like Melee. I like Melee a lot. I was quite good at it. Was I a pro? No, but I had the advanced techniques down, I knew how to use them, and could put up a good fight. I also like Brawl. Like many Melee players, I'm relatively horrible at Brawl. It's taken me awhile to get used to it. Do I believe I can get better? Certainly.
The fact is, Brawl is not an elaborate game of rock-paper-scissors. Nor is it tic-tac-toe. This GUARANTEES the presence of a metagame as long as one is willing to look for it. A metagame does not depend on physics exploits. The fact is a game in which both players turtle, is, by definition, one that never ends. So somebody's going to have to figure out a way to work around that.

Is my argument that people shouldn't be doing this, that they're some kind of Brawl-playing heathen? No, it's not. My argument is that I will continue to play Brawl, because despite what anyone may tell you, we don't know a lot about it. This is significant for two reasons.

1. A game we don't know a lot about has a lot we don't know about. These things could be used to our advantage to counter turtling's presence in the metagame. I've read people saying that we've pushed the physics engine as far as it can go. That's simply not true. Take, for example, tripping. At some point the Brawl community decided that tripping is simply determined by a random number generator when you start a dash. I will personally buy one of these USB geckos for anyone who can prove this to me. The fact is that the tools available to the Wii homebrew scene simply do not permit that kind of knowledge; unless the Brawl community is harbouring some secret method that gives them more access to the Wii than we've seen possible (and, if you do, really, the rest of the world would like to know), then it's apparent that we don't know everything we could about the physics engine.

2. The device required for this is essentially a hex editor. Despite all of the other features that basically make "cheating" easier, the device is technically *just* a hex editor. Now, I've used hex editors before. In fact, I'd say, compared to the average person, I use them very frequently. It's a very maticulous process, using a hex editor. To accomplish some of the easiest goals (even "disabling" tripping) would take quite a fair bit of work and just as much research. To accomplish something with a serious impact on the metagame (say, re-enabling l-cancelling) would be to modify a game that was made using the most advanced technology (in the field) in the world, one that took years to make, with one of the most mundane and basic tools available. This issue is also compouned by the fact that we know so little about the game, that once we get in there (so to speak), we won't know where we're going. It would be like tearing down the Empire State Building using a hammer and nails, while wearing a blindfold.

Do I think you shouldn't do this? No, I don't; if people have more fun playing this way, then what's the harm? After all, the ultimate purpose of a videogame is to have fun. But I think your goals are a little unrealistic and part of a larger problem.
 

Lawlb0t

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
1,731
Location
360 Degrees
I support this mod. As long as the competitive community has a gentlemens agreement and a common standard setting. This can and will turn out great. I don't want to go a tournament and die from Ike's jab combo at 15%...Lol
 

phish-it

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
2,096
Location
Mahopac, NY
I support this mod. As long as the competitive community has a gentlemens agreement and a common standard setting. This can and will turn out great. I don't want to go a tournament and die from Ike's jab combo at 15%...Lol
Even if this does turn out as planned, it will never take on the role of the main tournament game. But it would definately be interesting to see and play the final product.
 

Banjo2553

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
50
Haven't you thought of the legal implications that could happen if you choose to go through with this?
 

DragonBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
273
Haven't you thought of the legal implications that could happen if you choose to go through with this?
No, of course not. Not once in this 40 page thread did I ever think of that possibility. I've just been trolling my own thread with "z0mg brawl sucks/melee rocks" this whole time. I'm glad we have such intelligent people on smashboards to point out things like this or we could never get anything done. Thanks!
 

KillL0ck

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
774
Location
Edmonton
I've actually grown to Brawl as it is. A couple of days ago I went to try out Melee just for kicks and I couldn't properly L-Cancel or do other advanced techniques, this was because I've gotten used to a more realistic gravity system with lag animations that make sense.

I play competitive so don't get me wrong, I just don't think making the game better "Tech" wise is the best way to go. Mind Games are a huge thing in Brawl and have taught many players how to actually "Fight" instead of jumping around doing fancy stuff. I enjoy smarts over smarts, not tech over smarts.

Another problem with doing this is that it would make the game unbalanced, you'd make fast characters much faster and make slow characters only improve by a fraction of that.

That's just my two cents, feel free to make an argument against it, I won't stop you.
 

Grunt

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
4,612
Location
Kawaii Hawaii
I've actually grown to Brawl as it is. A couple of days ago I went to try out Melee just for kicks and I couldn't properly L-Cancel or do other advanced techniques, this was because I've gotten used to a more realistic gravity system with lag animations that make sense.

I play competitive so don't get me wrong, I just don't think making the game better "Tech" wise is the best way to go. Mind Games are a huge thing in Brawl and have taught many players how to actually "Fight" instead of jumping around doing fancy stuff. I enjoy smarts over smarts, not tech over smarts.

Another problem with doing this is that it would make the game unbalanced, you'd make fast characters much faster and make slow characters only improve by a fraction of that.

That's just my two cents, feel free to make an argument against it, I won't stop you.
The only flaw i see here, is how the F*ck is super floaty gravity considered more realistic?

That's fine, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but like every other fighting game, we want combos.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom