Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Mogisthelioma]

Sales number of a franchise and its number of fighters in Smash don't necessarily have to coincide.

First of all I love that new profile pic.

Second of all you're absolutely right. I don't remember a time when the sales of a game was directly proportional to how popular it was. Fates sold almost 2 million units but got mixed reviews whereas Awakening only sold 1.3 million but is considered by some to be the best ever FE game. So sales numbers don't even matter as much as people put them.

Moving on

Spoiler alert everyone: It's 2019. Smash is no longer going to limit itself to simply being a hall of fame. Otherwise we'd have less than half of the fighters we do.

On the topic of FE, I have to agree that people are inflating the series a little bit. It's undeniable that the series as blown up since Smash: Anyone who says otherwise is simply lying, period. But to compare it with some of Nintendo's more historical and iconic IP's requires an open mind. Not including the mobile game, which is a free download, FE has sold less than the Wario series. Don't get me wrong, Wario is certainly a Nintendo icon, but not many people will instantly think of Wario anymore when they hear about Nintendo. Today's major Nintendo top sellers ( have all broken at least 2 million sales on the Switch for example), are the icons that people will generally associate more with the company.

To put it simply, if Nintendo surveyed something like 100,000 random people around the world and asked them if they could recognize some of their characters, I'd bet all of my money that way more people will recognize characters like (Using the green tunic since it's been the Zelda poster outfit for decades) or even versus some Fire Emblem characters (more likely due to the fact that they don't stick around for a long time in the series and less likely if the series is simply niche in some areas [not implying that it is]).

So I think it's totally fair when people complain about how much FE content there is in Smash. People have a right to be annoyed by the fact that a series that has sold no more than 15 million copies is almost on par with Mario and Pokemon and even outclasses several major Nintendo franchises, including The Legend of Zelda, especially considering the series has never held as special of a place in a lot of people's hearts. It's impossible to deny that up until recently Fire Emblem has always been nice in the West and is only just beginning to form a decent audience and upbringing outside of Japan, and I really hope that Three Houses is successful so the series can actually expand to a decent amount into new territories.

Don't get me wrong: I don't dislike FE at all and I really want the series to be successful, but I'm forced to agree with the people who argue that the series is oversaturated in Smash. The inflated representation that the series has doesn't mirror how the majority of people view it.

 

[The DanMan051]

Fates sold almost 2 million units but got mixed reviews whereas Awakening only sold 1.3 million but is considered by some to be the best ever FE game.

Umm... ?
Fates has sold nearly 3 million units and is in the high 80s on metacritic, while Awakening is at about 2 million and is the second highest rated game on the 3DS behind only OoT3D.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...ardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.2725/

Also:

FE has sold less than the Wario series

Wario's games are heavily frontloaded, with over 1/3 of the series' sales just coming from the OG Super Mario Land. None of the WarioWare games released in the past decade have managed to break a million.

Anyways, Smash is a promotional machine for Nintendo; Sakurai even said at one point that the amount of FE characters was "strategic". FE's going to keep getting pushed until Nintendo thinks it has peaked. The energy put into complaining about it in Smash would be better spent on showing support for other characters (if the DK fanbase can rally get K. Rool in, there's no way in hell the Zelda fanbase wouldn't be able to get a character in if they truly rallied around it).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Here's an input, which could be considered unpopular...

Ridley is too dark and edgy for Ultimate's more cartoonish approach.

 

[The DanMan051]

Here's an input, which could be considered unpopular...

Ridley is too dark and edgy for Ultimate's more cartoonish approach.

Related, here's another unpopular opinion: Ultimate's aesthetics are worse than Brawl's and Smash 4's.

It tried to split the difference and certain characters just end up looking really awkward (Mario and Luigi illustrate this with their slightly dulled colors and sorta there denim texturing, compared to Smash 4's bright and cartoony look while Brawl consistently had a darker and more realistic color palette and detailing).

Also related... god damn I really wish they'd tried the 3DS version's cell-shaded look in HD. It would've been unique, elements could be toggleable, and it would help iron out all the differing designs in the game.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Here's an input, which could be considered unpopular...

Ridley is too dark and edgy for Ultimate's more cartoonish approach.

Assuming you're referring specifically to his Ultimate design, I agree. It's why I exclusively use the Meta Ridley alt when I play as him. Ultimate Ridley is just kinda hideous in my opinion. Brawl Ridley, I think was right in the sweetspot in terms of design; suitably intimidating, but not overly jaggy or crusty.

 

[Idon]

(if the DK fanbase can rally get K. Rool in, there's no way in hell the Zelda fanbase wouldn't be able to get a character in if they truly rallied around it)

The issue with that logic is that the Zelda fanbase can't exactly rally behind a few or single characters in the way the Metroid/DK community can. The most popular characters come from singular games where they serve their purpose and are done, never to be brought up again, exception being Sheik who was relevant at the time and served as a Zelda switching mechanic. Any Zelda character being pushed has had their period of relevancy already and lore-wise are unlikely to ever get long-standing appeal like Ridley/K Rool.

On top of that, there's just about a dozen potential characters the Zelda games have in terms of "fan-favorites." Saying Zelda could push a Ridley/K Rool of their own ignores the fact that Ridley and K Rool didn't exactly have to share their spotlights with half a dozen other characters.

And that's not even mentioning how the most popular choices (Ghirahim, Midna, Skull Kid) are already assist trophies which already puts a hamper on people's optimism which in and of itself is another conversation about the likelihood of assist trophy promotions overall.

Which isn't to say people shouldn't push for characters they want, but it's good to note "Metroid/DK community did it, so why can't Zelda?" ignores all of the previously mentioned.

 

[The DanMan051]

The issue with that logic is that the Zelda fanbase can't exactly rally behind a few or single characters in the way the Metroid/DK community can. The most popular characters come from singular games where they serve their purpose and are done, never to be brought up again, exception being Sheik who was relevant at the time and served as a Zelda switching mechanic. Any Zelda character being pushed has had their period of relevancy already and lore-wise are unlikely to ever get long-standing appeal like Ridley/K Rool.

On top of that, there's just about a dozen potential characters the Zelda games have in terms of "fan-favorites." Saying Zelda could push a Ridley/K Rool of their own ignores the fact that Ridley and K Rool didn't exactly have to share their spotlights with half a dozen other characters.

And that's not even mentioning how the most popular choices (Ghirahim, Midna, Skull Kid) are already assist trophies which already puts a hamper on people's optimism which in and of itself is another conversation about the likelihood of assist trophy promotions overall.

Which isn't to say people shouldn't push for characters they want, but it's good to note "Metroid/DK community did it, so why can't Zelda?" ignores all of the previously mentioned.

Hence why I said "if they truly rallied around one"; as it stands, the fandom's size can definitely hinder things more than help. ...Though it seems like as of late more people have gravitated towards Skull Kid, so if their popularity just keeps on growing things could be in a good position.

And even then, K. Rool got a ton of support during Smash 4's DLC period but didn't get in until Ultimate; there isn't going to be an immediate pay-off.

 

[Xelrog]

It's good to have main villains in the game. Zelda already had its primary villain in and DK didn't, so of course people wanted him.

 

[TheDuke54]

K. Rool was kind of the old iconic villain to, even if he hasn't been in any of the new installments. Last time he was used was in DK64 if I recall correctly. I don't think there are any more iconic villains for Smash inclusion now. Or at least not any that are really well known like Bowser, K. Rool, or Ridley.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Unless you start pulling more FE reps for villains, there aren't many viable 1&2P choices left for Smash.

I'd play the hell out of Nergal or Zephiel in Smash, though. Zephiel could be a potential high-tier super heavyweight if he had Eckesachs in sword form.. man he'd be something. Nergal would be cool too as he's a magic user, I feel either him or Zephiel could be viable FE villain reps that would still feel VERY different from other FE reps in the game already.

I'd replace Corrin or Chrom with either of them in a heartbeat.

 

[Arthur97]

K. Rool was kind of the old iconic villain to, even if he hasn't been in any of the new installments. Last time he was used was in DK64 if I recall correctly. I don't think there are any more iconic villains for Smash inclusion now. Or at least not any that are really well known like Bowser, K. Rool, or Ridley.

Actually, think it was Jungle Climbers for DS. He also appeared in Super Star Sluggers.

 

[Opossum]

Umm... ?
Fates has sold nearly 3 million units and is in the high 80s on metacritic, while Awakening is at about 2 million and is the second highest rated game on the 3DS behind only OoT3D.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...ardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.2725/

Also:

Wario's games are heavily frontloaded, with over 1/3 of the series' sales just coming from the OG Super Mario Land. None of the WarioWare games released in the past decade have managed to break a million.

Anyways, Smash is a promotional machine for Nintendo; Sakurai even said at one point that the amount of FE characters was "strategic". FE's going to keep getting pushed until Nintendo thinks it has peaked. The energy put into complaining about it in Smash would be better spent on showing support for other characters (if the DK fanbase can rally get K. Rool in, there's no way in hell the Zelda fanbase wouldn't be able to get a character in if they truly rallied around it).

It's also worth noting that Fates' sales combine all three versions of the game, despite the fact that Revelation is basically DLC-only, which skews Fates' numbers a bit. Over all, Awakening is the best selling single game in the franchise.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Bringing back Rock Smash is not helping matters if Charizard's entire moveset has been made worse than it was in Smash 3DS / Wii U.

Not the entire moveset. Flare blitz has been buffed to the point that it can kill stupidly early. The endlag on all of zard's smashes has been improved and the moves do more damage. We aren't here to suggest changes to a character's moveset but I made elite smash using charizard exclusively so if he's bad than the rest of the cast is worse.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Charizard is objectively the worst heavy in the game for reasons that have been gone over a thousand times, just like people have gone over the whole 'well I use a low tier and won x, y or z so they must not be a low tier' argument being total BS.

Don't go down that road, please. Also, quickplay / elite smash is currently a measurement of nothing and almost has an entirely different meta to the rest of the game, not to mentioned it's widely despised. It's not viable for practice, nor is it viable evidence for jack. Not to mention you could just, y'know.. say that just to say it.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Charizard is objectively the worst heavy in the game for reasons that have been gone over a thousand times, just like people have gone over the whole 'well I use a low tier and won x, y or z so they must not be a low tier' argument being total BS.

Don't go down that road, please. Also, quickplay / elite smash is currently a measurement of nothing and almost has an entirely different meta to the rest of the game, not to mentioned it's widely despised. It's not viable for practice, nor is it viable evidence for jack. Not to mention you could just, y'know.. say that just to say it.

Sadly the same could go for what you're saying. You're saying he's the worst heavyweight for reasons that have been discussed. But i've never seen the discussions! In any case since we're on the subject how would you improve him? It seems that the only issue to me is his air speed. Which has been a problem since brawl.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Sadly the same could go for what you're saying. You're saying he's the worst heavyweight for reasons that have been discussed. But i've never seen the discussions! In any case since we're on the subject how would you improve him? It seems that the only issue to me is his air speed. Which has been a problem since brawl.

If you haven't seen tier discussions over Charizard in the Smash community, you must've been traveling with your eyes closed through it. It's been a hot topic since day one, since before launch even. Hell, I myself have posted in these very forums about Zard's issues on more than one occasion, I believe in this very thread. For this reason, I'm pretty sure you've self-confirmed your stance ahead of time and arguing with you isn't going to change it.

Charizard is extremely flawed, top to bottom, hurt most by the meta of Ultimate in general. I don't need reaffirmation of this.

 

[Idon]

Sadly the same could go for what you're saying. You're saying he's the worst heavyweight for reasons that have been discussed. But i've never seen the discussions! In any case since we're on the subject how would you improve him? It seems that the only issue to me is his air speed. Which has been a problem since brawl.

Probably my biggest gripe with charizard is his landing options. In 4, the option of rock-smash which had superarmor and a huge disjoint made him far better, but without that's, he's got his stomp, spin, and flamethrower, which are all... not good.

 

[UserKev]

It seems Smash Ultimate soundtrack is still underwhelming, just mostly remixed. I don't understand, really. Lots of classic original themes Sakurai can choose from.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Probably my biggest gripe with charizard is his landing options. In 4, the option of rock-smash which had superarmor and a huge disjoint made him far better, but without that's, he's got his stomp, spin, and flamethrower, which are all... not good.

Thank you, some actual reasons why he's bad instead of saying "the character just sucks, i don't need to explain myself to you!". I'm going to agree, the only landing option that's even semi-viable now is flamethrower, and you need to aim in order to hit anyone directly underneath, stomp and neutral a are just too slow and don't work. He needs landing options. Rock smash used to work as one but now it's gone.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Thank you, some actual reasons why he's bad instead of saying "the character just sucks, i don't need to explain myself to you!". I'm going to agree, the only landing option that's even semi-viable now is flamethrower, and you need to aim in order to hit anyone directly underneath, stomp and neutral a are just too slow and don't work. He needs landing options. Rock smash used to work as one but now it's gone.

I've already said I've posted about Zard's issues numerous times, there is a feature called post history. Unless that isn't what you wanted to do.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I've already said I've posted about Zard's issues numerous times, there is a feature called post history. Unless that isn't what you wanted to do.

Sorry don't know how to access that. I've never even seen that before or ever. Granted I've only just come back to these boards last week so I'm not sure as to how the boards have been changed up but that's off topic.
I think shortening fly's super armor was just a bad move. I'm pretty sure fly's super armor lasted much longer and gave him invulnerability when going to the ledge, now it's only seemingly real use is as a finishing blow or as a counter move. It's range is too short unlike flare blitz, it's supposed to be a flying type so why is it so awful in the air?

 

[Idon]

Sorry don't know how to access that. I've never even seen that before or ever. Granted I've only just come back to these boards last week so I'm not sure as to how the boards have been changed up but that's off topic.

Essentially, you can either visit his profile and look under the "postings" tab underneath or use the search bar on the top right filtering using his name and then looking up "Charizard" or something of the like.

And if you want other opinions regarding charizard, the competitive thread's always open.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Essentially, you can either visit his profile and look under the "postings" tab underneath or use the search bar on the top right filtering using his name and then looking up "Charizard" or something of the like.

And if you want other opinions regarding charizard, the competitive thread's always open.

Thanks, do you think zard's damage output is too low? Most other heavyweights do 10% to 12% more damage per hit.

 

[dankDadi]

gannondorf hits too hard for his speed

 

[DelugeFGC]

gannondorf hits too hard for his speed

Dorf hits fine for his speed, he's a total slug. Sure, he feels fast, but in comparison to the high tiers and top tiers or my main / his original mold Falcon.. he's a turtle. Considering he can have his Up-B rockcrocked, he's slow as molasses and he's total combo food with little combo potential himself.. I'd say Dorf isn't deserving of any nerfs. He could actually use a buff or two if applied well.

Dorf revolves a lot around punish game and landing hits in neutral to rack up % to eventually kill is going to derive almost entirely from that unless you just don't respect him at all during your approaches.. so focus on playing smart / well and limit your mistakes, don't get greedy, etc. He's slow, very slow, and nothing he has comes out particularly fast. If for some reason you can't challenge it with speed, you can likely challenge it with range. He also has a VERY bad time with projectiles, the Young Link MU in particular is BRUTAL for him. He also has a lot of stuff that works on him that wouldn't work on other characters because of his status as combo food, so once he loses neutral.. take it as far as you can. He'll suffer for it.

 

[dankDadi]

Dorf hits fine for his speed, he's a total slug. Sure, he feels fast, but in comparison to the high tiers and top tiers or my main / his original mold Falcon.. he's a turtle. Considering he can have his Up-B rockcrocked, he's slow as molasses and he's total combo food with little combo potential himself.. I'd say Dorf isn't deserving of any nerfs. He could actually use a buff or two if applied well.

Dorf revolves a lot around punish game and landing hits in neutral to rack up % to eventually kill is going to derive almost entirely from that unless you just don't respect him at all during your approaches.. so focus on playing smart / well and limit your mistakes, don't get greedy, etc. He's slow, very slow, and nothing he has comes out particularly fast. If for some reason you can't challenge it with speed, you can likely challenge it with range. He also has a VERY bad time with projectiles, the Young Link MU in particular is BRUTAL for him. He also has a lot of stuff that works on him that wouldn't work on other characters because of his status as combo food, so once he loses neutral.. take it as far as you can. He'll suffer for it.

i might have a warped view of him since i main a heavyweight, but things like his neutral tilt and smash attacks are so stupid. im not saying he is fast, its just the ratio of speed to damage

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Chill from brawl>Fever (which if any song needs more than one remix it's fever, jeez that song needs an update)

 

[dankDadi]

Chill from brawl>Fever (which if any song needs more than one remix it's fever, jeez that song needs an update)

smash 64 luigi pic looks so sexy

 

[DelugeFGC]

i might have a warped view of him since i main a heavyweight, but things like his neutral tilt and smash attacks are so stupid. im not saying he is fast, its just the ratio of speed to damage

The only real options he has with any amount of speed are FTilt and DTilt, and neither have super amazing hitboxes that can't be challenged, nor can they not be played around in neutral if you lack such things. His power is because of his speed, otherwise he's be even less fortunate in the meta. He's one of the better mid tiers, but his problems hold him back waaay too far to constitute nerfs or anything..

Dorf is as I said, very punish oriented. Sometimes he'll tech chase you with Side-B and then land a smash attack that invalidates your stock at 40%.. but most of the time he's sailing off in the wrong direction or whiffing, or plain missing follow ups due to his low speed.

 

[i am idiot]

I don't see the logic behind that someone being in "for no reason" when every character has their fans regardless on how often they are used, that being said I'm very satisfied with the roster already and unlike many others who want more characters I personally don't think they need to go overboard with dlc. I honestly would be fine if they stopped after the five we know we're getting.

so obviously i can't act like certain characters DON'T have ANY fans at all, but if characters like young link, pichu, dark pit and doctor mario were to be cut, would there really be that much backlash towards that decision even if the characters DO have there fans AND are classic veterans? also another thing i forgot to mention is unless they were to bring in less and less newcomers there would more and more balancing issues with the roster coming close to 80 characters.

also i'm not dissatisfied with the roster, but it isn't perfect.

 

[osby]

also i'm not dissatisfied with the roster, but it isn't perfect.

Well, because it can be. Roster has no objective measurement of quality and subjective perfectness is different for everyone. Best you can be is provide as much options as possible, which is what Ultimate did.

Also, balancing is obviously an issue but considering Ultimate is more balanced than Melee and Brawl despite having far more characters, it's not a big one.

 

[i am idiot]

Well, because it can be. Roster has no objective measurement of quality and subjective perfectness is different for everyone. Best you can be is provide as much options as possible, which is what Ultimate did.

Also, balancing is obviously an issue but considering Ultimate is more balanced than Melee and Brawl despite having far more characters, it's not a big one.

i guess i should rephrase it to "i'm not dissatisfied with the roster, but i do have issues with it"

but i do believe that the reason ultimate is considered to be the most balanced is because there aren't as many newcomers

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

so obviously i can't act like certain characters DON'T have ANY fans at all, but if characters like young link, pichu, dark pit and doctor mario were to be cut, would there really be that much backlash towards that decision even if the characters DO have there fans AND are classic veterans? also another thing i forgot to mention is unless they were to bring in less and less newcomers there would more and more balancing issues with the roster coming close to 80 characters.

also i'm not dissatisfied with the roster, but it isn't perfect.

Yes there would be some backlash cause some people like those characters (you would be surprised how many miss anything that gets cut) there's simply no way to please everyone but the devs are trying their best which is why they brought everyone back for Ultimate.

 

[i am idiot]

Yes there would be some backlash cause some people like those characters (you would be surprised how many miss anything that gets cut) there's simply no way to please everyone but the devs are trying their best which is why they brought everyone back for Ultimate.

touche.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yes there would be some backlash cause some people like those characters (you would be surprised how many miss anything that gets cut) there's simply no way to please everyone but the devs are trying their best which is why they brought everyone back for Ultimate.

The two dreaded clones who were last seen in Melee also have become more popular thanks to how much better they are now.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

gannondorf hits too hard for his speed

Ganondorf is set up to be slow, so hitting harder than most other fighters would make sense. However, being so slow that most of the top 10 fastest walkers can walk faster than your running speed can be one heck of a handicap when you have to approach your opponents to do anything.

Incineroar suffers from the same dilemma as well, but it's far worse when you realize that nearly half of the roster can outwalk its running speed.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I posted about this a few times in other threads and made a topic in the CF subforum, but it does currently appear to be an unpopular opinion so I'll voice it here as well too I suppose.

I think Captain Falcon is mostly fine and a lot of people were way too quick to judge him in Ult, myself included. A lot of people I think wanted to play him JUST like Sm4sh Falcon or Melee Falcon when in reality he seems to be a mix of both, but he reminds me of Melee falcon more. Why? Because he's slept on in the early meta, placed middle of the road or lower on early tier lists.. but I see him going much higher overtime. He has a higher execution barrier than most characters, specifically with timing and follow up windows to consistently land his combos.

He is not a character that in any way will carry you and he could use a handful of buffs (fix raptor boost, remove rockcrocking and speed up his dash a hair) but he's still easily a high-tier.. even if low high-tier.. though if he were to get buffed at ALL, after some meta growth I could easily see him rising HARD. Falcon is still very viable, he just alienates those who choose to play him like they did in a past game and he's more mechanically demanding than most characters.. but once you get comfortable with him, he's a disgusting beast and I love him to death. Wouldn't main anyone else at this point (outside of Cloud as my secondary main) and I never see it changing.

Long live the Cap'n.

----------

No matter who you play, stick with them if you feel you truly want to, even if you're a competitive player and your main is a low tier. You should have a secondary main who you can play more consistently with.. but don't give up on your main. Their meta will never grow or develop if people don't figure them out, and that only happens one way. The Cap'n taught me this, and I've been playing for nearly 20 years total and thought I had that area figured out pretty well, so.. take that how you will. Loyalty is endearing, but above all else the only way anybody is going to figure a character out is by playing them.

I'm not saying you'll be the Mac main to take him to high tier.. but you'd be surprised what you can do with some characters if you just take the time to develop them. Don't give up so easy.

 

[Gerbs]

Ganondorf meme-ery has gotten out of hand. He used to be just a bad character everyone laughed at - and I miss that, viability detracts from accomplishments.

 

[DelugeFGC]

He's still not super fantastic and has plenty of abysmal MU's. Ganon accomplishments are still just that.

 

[Gerbs]

I agree, not super fantastic but a long way from the Brawl and Smash 4 days.