Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Xelrog]

I used to think Incineroar was a contender for worst recovery, but there are worse out there both in terms of distance and gimpability. He's probably bottom 5, though.

There are a lot of characters with really bad recoveries in this game--more than previous Smash games in ratio.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Incineroar's recovery is the worst imo because not only is it very exploitable, but easy to suicide with if you're not careful.

 

[osby]

If you want to discuss characters' viability, there is already a thread for this: https://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-character-impressions-2-0.464762/

 

[DelugeFGC]

Don't a lot of these discussions still fit the topic due to them not being the status quo? In some instances anyway.. certainly not all. I'm genuinely just asking out of curiosity / future reference.

 

[osby]

Don't a lot of these discussions still fit the topic due to them not being the status quo? In some instances anyway.. certainly not all. I'm genuinely just asking out of curiosity.

This thread's main purpose is giving opinions about Smash without getting into long debates. If you want to discuss the game from a competitive perspective in length, Competitive Discussion is a better place for it.

 

[DelugeFGC]

This thread's main purpose is giving opinions about Smash without getting into long debates. If you want to discuss the game from a competitive perspective in length, Competitive Discussion is a better place for it.

Sorry for any contribution on my end.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

i'm pretty sure if all the fire emblem characters were unique from one another and 60% weren't clones of the same character, there would be WAY more acceptance of them

Nah, man. If that were the case, this is how it would play out:

"OMG!!!11 They actually wasted time and resources into their movesets instead of investing that effort into X character that I happen to like!
[insert fire emblem character name] stole development time from [insert any character]!"

 

[DelugeFGC]

It still baffles me that the discussion about how clones / echo fighters don't take up NEARLY as much development time as fully unique characters and aren't stealing roster slots away from other picks is happening TO THIS DAY, I remember talking about this stuff back in middle and high school.. good lord.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

the smash speculation community is a cycle. it always winds up back where it started and gets to all the greatest hits along the way.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Nah, man. If that were the case, this is how it would play out:

"OMG!!!11 The actually wasted time and resources into their movesets instead of investing that effort into X character that I happen to like!"

And the unique FE fighters will still be called Marth clones.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

the smash speculation community is a cycle. it always winds up back where it started and gets to all the greatest hits along the way.

Which is sad, considering that nowadays there is a lot of information and interviews regarding the development cycle of the games floating around on the interwebz. People just won't bother doing their own research.

 

[Opossum]

i'm pretty sure if all the fire emblem characters were unique from one another and 60% weren't clones of the same character, there would be WAY more acceptance of them

And even then, Marth and Roy have a considerable amount of differences, with half of their attacks being completely different. Neutral special, up special, forward tilt, up tilt, down air, forward smash, up smash, jab, and kinda-sorta dash attack are very different moves, and even their Final Smashes have some significant differences. Add in things like their tipper/hilt mechanics, air speed, fall speed, weight, run speed, and general frame data, and Marth and Roy play totally differently, despite being semi-clones.

A lot of people who complain about Roy/Chrom overlapping with Marth/Lucina seem to think Roy hasn't changed at all since Melee.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Here's a more minor one: I get that Fire Emblem Fates isn't. . . exactly the most well-received game in its series, but there still should've been more songs from it in Ultimate than just four variations of "Lost in Thoughts all Alone". In particular, it's just a huge missed opportunity that songs like Dusk Falls (Fire), A Dark Fall (Fire) and Alight (Storm) didn't get included.

That new remix of Lost in Thought All Alone (can we all just refer to it as LITAL for crap's sake) was fire. Why can't we get more fire emblem remixes like that one?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That new remix of Lost in Thought All Alone (can we all just refer to it as LITAL for crap's sake) was fire. Why can't we get more fire emblem remixes like that one?

Because we need more like the "Destiny (Ablaze)" remix instead.

That's the best track in the whole game.

 

[Idon]

I'm fine with no new remixes.

I'm not fine with only the Awakening and Fates characters getting new victory themes.
(And even then, they forgot to give Chrom the Awakening one, SMH)

 

[The DanMan051]

Here's a more minor one: I get that Fire Emblem Fates isn't. . . exactly the most well-received game in its series, but there still should've been more songs from it in Ultimate than just four variations of "Lost in Thoughts all Alone". In particular, it's just a huge missed opportunity that songs like Dusk Falls (Fire), A Dark Fall (Fire) and Alight (Storm) didn't get included.

It did perfectly well critically and commercial; it's just a vocal subgroup of fans as always.
And I'd agree, it's incredibly dumb that it didn't get more music here.

Anyways, actual contribution: people are sleeping on Euden's chances.

Dragalia Lost makes perfect sense to promote, as an up and coming mobile IP that Nintendo co-owns. And Cygames, well, they're all about crossovers and cross promoting (heck, DL was just announced to be getting a FEH crossover); considering the high hopes the devs have for the game (a few of them even openly dreamed about a Ufotable adaption shortly after launch), getting the protagonist in Smash feels like something they'd even be pushing for. Mix that in with Cygames' willingness to do crossovers and it also being a new Nintendo IP, and I think that comes together to give Euden a pretty solid chance of making it in to Smash.

 

[DelugeFGC]

At this point I'm actually more excited for patches due to balancing (buffs, not nerfs) and potential game changes (online, namely) we all want than I am for the new characters. Never thought I'd say that, but here we are.

I'm also trying to remain optimistic about the new stages we get. I really want something fresh and amazing, Ultimate has a TON of stages but man I want some more good ones.

 

[Aurane]

Frisk (Undertale) would be a cool playable character in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

& are "Eh whatever, I guess they would play similarly."


Here's hoping they change her more in the later patches...

It's disappointing because of all the abilities she had as an assist trophy. Replace her default and down special with those two attacks and I'm good.
Meanwhile, while Richter and Daisy are extremely similar to their bases, they can be so much more and so can their bases. Daisy's moveset could've been based on sports or something while because Simon is (obviously) less agile than Richter, his kicks and stuff can be changed to directional whips and his final smash can be another Subweapon. You are entitled to your own opinion

 

[Xelrog]

Simon is (obviously) less agile than Richter, his kicks and stuff can be changed to directional whips

I would be entirely down for this.

Sports Daisy is just lazy, though. She shouldn't be associated with spin-off games just because they're a large body of what she's been in--every Mario character has been in those, so they're not unique to Daisy at all. Defaulting to them for moves is just "settling."

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

People like to speak of a potential sports moveset for Daisy as if it were something unique to her or even a remotely interesting choice. The rest of the Mario cast can do anything Daisy does in those games. Something like Peach's side smash is better because it uses tools from those games without basing the whole moveset around the sports motif.
Truth is that Daisy has very little going on for her; she was brunette Peach in her early days and she isn't a breakout character like Wario or Luigi. Her being an echo of Peach is fitting given her history. It's silly how some people scramble to slap some changes on a moveset without thinking it through, assuming that a character must have some kind of difference from their base to justify their presence in the game. This justification is mostly fan made. Developers just included her as a glorified alt of Peach, to give players the option to try the same choice of ice cream flavor but under a different coating. If they wanted to make her a slightly more altered Peach or a semi clone, they would have done it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

On a similar note, if Waluigi is to become a fighter, his moveset should be personality-based rather than "Remember when you did this in the spinoffs?". Even with his tennis racket, the AT leans more towards the former.

 

[Calamitas]

It did perfectly well critically and commercial; it's just a vocal subgroup of fans as always.
And I'd agree, it's incredibly dumb that it didn't get more music here.

I mean, you tell me. Based on what I've seen, whenever I see people talk about Fates, it's in a negative way, and I understand where they're coming from.

Frisk (Undertale) would be a cool playable character in Smash.

I'd honestly want that just for the accompanying music alone.
Though I feel that Asriel would have the best moveset potential

On a similar note, if Waluigi is to become a fighter, his moveset should be personality-based rather than "Remember when you did this in the spinoffs?". Even with his tennis racket, the AT leans more towards the former.

What do you even mean by "personality-based"? Something like what Ganondorf currently is supposed to have?
. . .Crap, now I'm imagining Waluigi with Ganondorf's moveset.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

THE WAHLOCK PUNCH

 

[Mogisthelioma]

That's the best track in the whole game.

I beg to differ. Have you heard of Moonstruck Blossom?

 

[Dee Dude]

On a similar note, if Waluigi is to become a fighter, his moveset should be personality-based rather than "Remember when you did this in the spinoffs?". Even with his tennis racket, the AT leans more towards the former.

Personality based definitely, a spin-off moveset would be lame and gimmicky as hell even if it’s creative.

Plus it can work like this:

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

At this point I'm actually more excited for patches due to balancing (buffs, not nerfs) and potential game changes (online, namely) we all want than I am for the new characters. Never thought I'd say that, but here we are.

I'm also trying to remain optimistic about the new stages we get. I really want something fresh and amazing, Ultimate has a TON of stages but man I want some more good ones.

Same here honestly. An even hotter take is that I'm really looking forward to what Mii Costumes we get (give back Knuckles and Zero you jerks).

 

[Opossum]

People act as if a sports-based set and a personality-based set are mutually exclusive and that's pretty laughable, not gonna lie.

Cheating and deception make up a large part of Waluigi's personality, but Waluigi literally debuted in a tennis game. Even his Assist Trophy calls back to this; it shouldn't go ignored in his moveset. A good Waluigi moveset, IMO, has four major tenants: tricky movements, dancing, sports, and copious amounts of Dïck Dastardly-esque cheating. Something like pulling out a Fake Item Box from Mario Kart that stuns opponents if they touch it is perfectly in-character. It's a deceptive trick that gives Waluigi an edge over the opponent, and calls back to his spin-off origins. Using Rally and Zone Shots from Mario Tennis Aces is another example. Waluigi would have a greater window of time to hit the ball back at the opponent than the opponent would have to try and reflect it, once again fitting Waluigi's personality, Zone Shot's actual function, and his tennis origin.

Saying that it has to be either sports based or "personality based" is a blatantly false dichotomy; his personality is informed through sports. He's a hyper-competitive cheater.

 

[Arthur97]

People act as if a sports-based set and a personality-based set are mutually exclusive and that's pretty laughable, not gonna lie.

Cheating and deception make up a large part of Waluigi's personality, but Waluigi literally debuted in a tennis game. Even his Assist Trophy calls back to this; it shouldn't go ignored in his moveset. A good Waluigi moveset, IMO, has four major tenants: tricky movements, dancing, sports, and copious amounts of Dïck Dastardly-esque cheating. Something like pulling out a Fake Item Box from Mario Kart that stuns opponents if they touch it is perfectly in-character. It's a deceptive trick that gives Waluigi an edge over the opponent, and calls back to his spin-off origins. Using Rally and Zone Shots from Mario Tennis Aces is another example. Waluigi would have a greater window of time to hit the ball back at the opponent than the opponent would have to try and reflect it, once again fitting Waluigi's personality, Zone Shot's actual function, and his tennis origin.

Saying that it has to be either sports based or "personality based" is a blatantly false dichotomy; his personality is informed through sports. He's a hyper-competitive cheater.

Cheating. So, Waluigi should occasionally just win the match even if he lost. That could be hilarious.

 

[TheYungLink]

People act as if a sports-based set and a personality-based set are mutually exclusive and that's pretty laughable, not gonna lie.

Cheating and deception make up a large part of Waluigi's personality, but Waluigi literally debuted in a tennis game. Even his Assist Trophy calls back to this; it shouldn't go ignored in his moveset. A good Waluigi moveset, IMO, has four major tenants: tricky movements, dancing, sports, and copious amounts of Dïck Dastardly-esque cheating. Something like pulling out a Fake Item Box from Mario Kart that stuns opponents if they touch it is perfectly in-character. It's a deceptive trick that gives Waluigi an edge over the opponent, and calls back to his spin-off origins. Using Rally and Zone Shots from Mario Tennis Aces is another example. Waluigi would have a greater window of time to hit the ball back at the opponent than the opponent would have to try and reflect it, once again fitting Waluigi's personality, Zone Shot's actual function, and his tennis origin.

Saying that it has to be either sports based or "personality based" is a blatantly false dichotomy; his personality is informed through sports. He's a hyper-competitive cheater.

Hey I wanna let you know that you're the first person to truly sell me on Waluigi with this post. I've always been a passive supporter but never quite knew what I would do with him if I theoretically had to put him in Smash. This is a great baseline that sums up who Waluigi is and how he'd stand out among the playable cast as a result.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

People act as if a sports-based set and a personality-based set are mutually exclusive and that's pretty laughable, not gonna lie.

Cheating and deception make up a large part of Waluigi's personality, but Waluigi literally debuted in a tennis game. Even his Assist Trophy calls back to this; it shouldn't go ignored in his moveset. A good Waluigi moveset, IMO, has four major tenants: tricky movements, dancing, sports, and copious amounts of Dïck Dastardly-esque cheating. Something like pulling out a Fake Item Box from Mario Kart that stuns opponents if they touch it is perfectly in-character. It's a deceptive trick that gives Waluigi an edge over the opponent, and calls back to his spin-off origins. Using Rally and Zone Shots from Mario Tennis Aces is another example. Waluigi would have a greater window of time to hit the ball back at the opponent than the opponent would have to try and reflect it, once again fitting Waluigi's personality, Zone Shot's actual function, and his tennis origin.

Saying that it has to be either sports based or "personality based" is a blatantly false dichotomy; his personality is informed through sports. He's a hyper-competitive cheater.

"Cheating" makes me think Waluigi should have a down+B counter kind of move but instead of countering with any hits he sticks his leg out and trips the opponent, who takes damage with the fall. Waluigi immediately laughs if it connects. Since the opponent is tripped, he can also immediately follow up with a grab or a killing move.

 

[Deleted member]

Talking about the Wah's. Honestly the only unpopular opinion I have is that I like Wario's moveset and how he is represented in the game. The WarioWare part of him and the Land part of him are quite important and would feel odd only having one incarnation appear.

I like that it takes moves from multiple incarnations of the character in WarioWare, Land, World as it kind of shows a lot of the range Wario has as a character. I feel that while you can make an argument about balancing the number of moves each series has though.

 

[Arthur97]

The main issue of Wario is that he's about 95% WarioWare and 5% Wario Land. They are by no means equal partners.

 

[Xelrog]

I'd say he's more like 40% WarioWare, 30% Wario Land/World, and 30% "haha gross fat guy" joke moves.

Granted, WarioWare plays up the gross humor with him more than the platforming games, so there's some crossover there. Still, it's so tacky and juvenile--fat guy stereotypes were never originally a part of his character and now they're the bulk of it.

 

[Arthur97]

I'd say he's more like 40% WarioWare, 30% Wario Land/World, and 30% "haha gross fat guy" joke moves.

Granted, WarioWare plays up the gross humor with him more than the platforming games, so there's some crossover there. Still, it's so tacky and juvenile--fat guy stereotypes were never originally a part of his character and now they're the bulk of it.

Shoulder Bash, sort of his down throw, and maybe crawl come from WarioLand. Hardly a third. I can take the gross humor, but Wario Land should be better integrated into it.

 

[KatKit]

Daisy should have had ONE more aesthetic change, and she'd be perfect, IMO. Instead of turnips, she should have used carrots:

They could function exactly the same, but that could've been a cute/neat little visual difference between the two princesses.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

fat guy stereotypes were never originally a part of his character and now they're the bulk of it.

Actually they were.

The first couple Wario Lands were uber gross in Japan.

One of the manuals even had a FAQ as "what does your poop smell like" with Wario answering honestly.

 

[Xelrog]

One of the manuals even had a FAQ as "what does your poop smell like" with Wario answering honestly.

Was there anything actually in the game, though? Wario World had a silly manual too, but it wasn't his character in actual gameplay to be farting everywhere and picking his nose as an idle animation.

 

[TheYungLink]

Yeah most of Wario's grossness comes from non game material, like the manuals and the advertising. In-game in Wario Land, he's a mix of goofy and hapless (his transformations from enemy contact) as well as tough and strong. At least the goofy part did make its way into Wario's overall concept in Smash, and some attacks of his are strong.

I liked PushDustIn's expose on Wario's depiction in Japan but most if not all of his examples of Wario's haplessness and grossness came from stuff that wasn't in the games (especially the advertising).

I respect the choice to make Wario more of a wacky fighter than another strong heavy, especially considering how his wackiness is more present in the WarioWare games which are frankly more popular, but I could still use a couple more Wario Land references besides the shoulder bash.

Wario feels odd as one of the few characters whose moveset (especially the special moves, only the bike is a direct reference since the up special, despite being named Corkscrew, is not modeled after the Corkscrew Conk from Wario World) is largely made up despite having lots of source material to draw from, while also not being a clone / echo of anyone.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Was there anything actually in the game, though? Wario World had a silly manual too, but it wasn't his character in actual gameplay to be farting everywhere and picking his nose as an idle animation.

Wario Land music is literally farts.

Moreover, Wario Land has a lot of purposely gross and weird enemies. Wario's characterization in Mario Spin Off games also has him be kinda gross.