Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Mogisthelioma]

People who complain about King K. Rool should have an official thread to vent about it instead of filling the GD with their own rant threads.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I also read somewhere you're not a fan of reps. Why is that?

I'm not Matt, but an "unfair" and "unbalanced" roster can have just as much gameplay variety and popular characters as one with "fair" and "balanced" representation, plus I like playing as several characters that are dreaded among roster perfectionists. In addition, there are series with more essential characters than others. Metroid would only really need another character if MP4 makes a big deal out of Sylux, while Fire Emblem is still missing popular characters like Lyn and there's a reason why Eevee was chosen to be the alternative to Let's Go Pikachu.

I don't think Dr. Mario is one of these essential characters, mind you, but I think Pichu is. If they could make 6 more unique newcomers instead of clones in Melee, Wario would take the doctor's place while Pichu is very likely to stay unless they could come up with a moveset for Marill or Togepi.

 

[Tetrin]

I'm not Matt, but an "unfair" and "unbalanced" roster can have just as much gameplay variety and popular characters as one with "fair" and "balanced" representation, plus I like playing as several characters that are dreaded among roster perfectionists. In addition, there are series with more essential characters than others. Metroid would only really need another character if MP4 makes a big deal out of Sylux, while Fire Emblem is still missing popular characters like Lyn and there's a reason why Eevee was chosen to be the alternative to Let's Go Pikachu.

I don't think Dr. Mario is one of these essential characters, mind you, but I think Pichu is. If they could make 6 more unique newcomers instead of clones in Melee, Wario would take the doctor's place while Pichu is very likely to stay unless they could come up with a moveset for Marill or Togepi.

I feel like that'd overrepresent FE though. I do agree Lyn should be added, but at the expense of Lucina, Roy, and Chrom being cut. We have three reps for one FE game so I think Robin will do. If people really want, demote Roy to an echo of Marth or keep Lucina, but I still think FE is overrepresented. Besides, there really is only so much you can do with a sword, so to add variety to the FE lineup, I suggest adding axe users like Hector or, for the new game, Edelgard, or even a lance user like Ephraim.

I can assure you Pichu is not essential. His only popularity is either through Smash or piggybacking off Pikachu's, and if you really want someone from Gen 2 with an interesting moveset, why not Ambipom? He seems like he'd definitely be fun to play as and against.

 

[Guynamednelson]

if you really want someone from Gen 2 with an interesting moveset, why not Ambipom? He seems like he'd definitely be fun to play as and against.

Because it's Aipom that's from Gen 2, not its evolution, and the Pokemon selection is very marketing-focused. (That's why the Gothitelle leak should've been immediately shot down.) Marill, Togepi, and Lugia were also the only Gen 2 Pokemon that had entries on the Melee ballot Sakurai hosted. I know that isn't a good point in Pichu's favor, but Pokemon GS wasn't released in Japan when the ballot was hosted, and the marketing for it happened once GS released.

 

[Tetrin]

Because it's Aipom that's from Gen 2, not its evolution, and the Pokemon selection is very marketing-focused. Marill, Togepi, and Lugia were also the only Gen 2 Pokemon that had entries on the Melee ballot Sakurai hosted.

Oh right, I forgot about that

But even then, Pichu is definitely not essential. There are still 2 entirely unrepped gens, and I think Sceptile, Gardevoir, Zoroark, and Genesect all would've been way better. Obviously I know that Pokemon in Smash boils down to marketing when it comes to new additions, but these would all be far more interesting than a semi clone to me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

There are still 2 entirely unrepped gens, and I think Sceptile, Gardevoir, Zoroark, and Genesect all would've been way better. Obviously I know that Pokemon in Smash boils down to marketing when it comes to new additions, but these would all be far more interesting than a semi clone to me.

Personally, I think Sceptile didn't happen because Sakurai got the impression that people just wanted to see a grass-type on the roster, not actually play as it. And I think Gardevoir and Zoroark would've been at the very best semi-clones themselves, of Zelda and Lucario.

And personally I prefer having less human designs when it comes to Pokemon myself. Incineroar looks like you could've replaced its model and voice clips with those for a human wrestler and nothing would seem awkward. Not only that but I think the smaller, less human Pokemon play better.

 

[Tetrin]

Personally, I think Sceptile didn't happen because Sakurai got the impression that people just wanted to see a grass-type on the roster, not actually play as it. And I think Gardevoir and Zoroark would've been at the very best semi-clones themselves, of Zelda and Lucario.

And personally I prefer having less human designs when it comes to Pokemon myself. Incineroar looks like you could've replaced its model and voice clips with those for a human wrestler and nothing would seem awkward. Not only that but I think the smaller, less human Pokemon play better.

Zoroark a semi-clone of Lucario? Zoroark is literally nothing like Lucario in any way. He doesn't have any aura mechanics, his moves in the actual Pokemons games are almost nothing alike, and he'd be the only fighter in game to fight like an actual dark type (Incineroar and Greninja don't fight like dark types in Smash).

Zelda and Gardevoir both having mystical powers doesn't mean they'd have the same moveset. Psybeam, psychic (the move in pokemon), dazzling gleam, draining kiss, hypnosis, heal bell, and maybe even magical leaf would all play tremendously different from Zelda; the only move I could see being similar to Zelda is moonblast. Now obviously Smash doesn't exactly take moves directly from Pokemon and implement them accordingly all the time (i.e., Greninja), but making Gardevoir anything like Zelda is really not thinking outside the box. In fact, I think she'd take more inspiration from Ness/Lucas than she would Zelda, and even in that case, it wouldn't be enough to make her a semi clone. It'd be like 2-3 similar moves at best.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Zoroark a semi-clone of Lucario? Zoroark is literally nothing like Lucario in any way. He doesn't have any aura mechanics, his moves in the actual Pokemons games are almost nothing alike, and he'd be the only fighter in game to fight like an actual dark type (Incineroar and Greninja don't fight like dark types in Smash).

Zelda and Gardevoir both having mystical powers doesn't mean they'd have the same moveset. Psybeam, psychic (the move in pokemon), dazzling gleam, draining kiss, hypnosis, heal bell, and maybe even magical leaf would all play tremendously different from Zelda; the only move I could see being similar to Zelda is moonblast. Now obviously Smash doesn't exactly take moves directly from Pokemon and implement them accordingly all the time (i.e., Greninja), but making Gardevoir anything like Zelda is really not thinking outside the box. In fact, I think she'd take more inspiration from Ness/Lucas than she would Zelda, and even in that case, it wouldn't be enough to make her a semi clone. It'd be like 2-3 similar moves at best.

Don't get me wrong, those two are still proper representation of their gens, but unless Zoroark has illusions they'd only be different on paper. And cutesy Pokemon just tend to work better in Smash's gameplay, just look at how Mewtwo needed to have a patch overhaul it.

 

[osby]

Don't get me wrong, those two are still proper representation of their gens. Cutesy Pokemon just tend to work better in Smash's gameplay, just look at how Mewtwo needed to have a patch overhaul it.

and want to have a word with you.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

Thanos would be fun to play as if he was in Ultimate

 

[WaddleMatt]

I also read somewhere you're not a fan of reps. Why is that?

I don't think a roster should be determined by 'this series has sold more' or 'this series is more iconic'. Characters should be added if they were fun to play and would have a unique moveset or based on their overall popularity among fans in my opinion, obviously there has to be some limits. The main cast of a series should be added first (Mario, Bowser, Luigi, Peach) or if the series has a different cast each game, the most iconic/original protagonist (Ness, Cloud, Marth, Simon). Once you have the essentials it is anyones game.

 

[Tubby_Squirrel]

I would not mind even more Fire Emblem so long as the other two corners of the combat triangle, Axes and Spears, were represented.

 

[osby]

I would not mind even more Fire Emblem so long as the other two corners of the combat triangle, Axes and Spears, were represented.

So, would you be okay with any spear and axe user?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'm not Matt, but an "unfair" and "unbalanced" roster can have just as much gameplay variety and popular characters as one with "fair" and "balanced" representation, plus I like playing as several characters that are dreaded among roster perfectionists. In addition, there are series with more essential characters than others. Metroid would only really need another character if MP4 makes a big deal out of Sylux, while Fire Emblem is still missing popular characters like Lyn and there's a reason why Eevee was chosen to be the alternative to Let's Go Pikachu.

I agree and disagree. I feel like it's important to represent as many popular characters as possible but only to an extent that keeps the series in line and from being overrepresented. If a series has room for maybe 4 or 5 fighters but there are 10 characters who are equally popular, only 4 or 5 of them should be fighters instead of proliferation. On that same note, if there aren't really any viable characters to be newcomers from a series, then there isn't a need for one. That's why we never really got a Metroid newcomer until now.

 

[Tubby_Squirrel]

So, would you be okay with any spear and axe user?

Eh you know, yeah. I honestly don't think its so much people are turned off to FE so much as they are 'sword users' and even MORE so 'sword users from FE'

But seriously, a cornerstone of FE combat is the Axe>Sword>Spear>Axe triangle! Yet we only have one corner of that.

 

[osby]

Eh you know, yeah. I honestly don't think its so much people are turned off to FE so much as they are 'sword users' and even MORE so 'sword users from FE'

But seriously, a cornerstone of FE combat is the Axe>Sword>Spear>Axe triangle! Yet we only have one corner of that.

There are tons of axe and spear users in FE, I'm just lost on which ones are popular and/or important.

I don't like the idea of putting in characters for filling a quota and writing off Corrin and Robin as just sword users when both are obviously more than that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But seriously, a cornerstone of FE combat is the Axe>Sword>Spear>Axe triangle! Yet we only have one corner of that.

Sakurai has different focuses when making unique FE characters. I doubt that Edelgard will get in because Sakurai clearly thought shapeshifting or the use of tomes was more important than "not sword".

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I feel like the Weapon triangle form FE is important but can't alone be used to justify someone getting in. I also have a few reservations when it comes to this. The whole "X uses this weapon" argument makes a newcomer's viability boil down to whatever piece of metal on a stick they hold in their hand which to say the least doesn't do justice to a character.

An axe user wouldn't be that different from a sword user, just with maybe shorter but meatier hitboxes (and weird frames). A spear user I'd still be 50/50 with because Bandana Dee would be a better spear user than anything Fire Emblem could cough up we still have more than enough FE fighters in this game and there are characters who use spears in other games (not sure if there are axe candidates outside of FE though).

 

[WaddleMatt]

Bandana Dee would be a better spear user than anything Fire Emblem could cough up

This is true, but Bandana Dee should be in Smash on his own merits too.

 

[osby]

I feel like the Weapon triangle form FE is important but can't alone be used to justify someone getting in. I also have a few reservations when it comes to this. The whole "X uses this weapon" argument makes a newcomer's viability boil down to whatever piece of metal on a stick they hold in their hand which to say the least doesn't do justice to a character.

An axe user wouldn't be that different from a sword user, just with maybe shorter but meatier hitboxes (and weird frames). A spear user I'd still be 50/50 with because Bandana Dee would be a better spear user than anything Fire Emblem could cough up we still have more than enough FE fighters in this game and there are characters who use spears in other games (not sure if there are axe candidates outside of FE though).

"Better spear user"? What does that even mean? Is he a better character than all spear users in FE? Is he more powerful? What?

 

[YoshiandToad]

Personally I'd rather have Bandana Dee or Krystal for a lance user but if it must be Fire Emblem, Azura is an okay choice by me since she's sort of the deutagonist in Fates as far as I can tell and unlike her fellow popular Fates characters, Takumi and Camilla, is a relative neutral between Hoshido and Nohr.
I don't know why that matters to me, but it does.

Alternatively just have Anna as she's canonically used every weapon type now and can wield swords, axes, bows, lances and magic and call it a day. She's in every game anyway so she's at least a rare constant.

 

[Luigifan18]

People who complain about King K. Rool should have an official thread to vent about it instead of filling the GD with their own rant threads.

This is a good idea for pretty much every subject that people frequently make threads about — controller issues, "broken" characters, underpowered characters, searching for competitive scenes, organizing tournaments, etc.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

"Better spear user"? What does that even mean? Is he a better character than all spear users in FE? Is he more powerful? What?

"Better" as less stale and more resourceful. I'd rather have him than the eighth human anime prettyboy/waifu, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone from FE (or Krystal/Mipha/etc.) has all of Dee's attributes that make him unique (megaton punch, spear copter, reflector parasol, team super attack, etc.).

But enough about that, I put it in a strikethrough since it wasn't important.

 

[Tetrin]

I don't think a roster should be determined by 'this series has sold more' or 'this series is more iconic'. Characters should be added if they were fun to play and would have a unique moveset or based on their overall popularity among fans in my opinion, obviously there has to be some limits. The main cast of a series should be added first (Mario, Bowser, Luigi, Peach) or if the series has a different cast each game, the most iconic/original protagonist (Ness, Cloud, Marth, Simon). Once you have the essentials it is anyones game.

This is something I can't really argue with, since I guess it's just a matter of opinion, but I do strongly feel that sales and iconic-ness should definitely contribute to rep count in addition to fanservice and moveset potential. I stick to the "Smash is a a game of icons" ideology and I see you take a much less conservative approach, which is fine, but there are some things you didn't take into account: not every franchise includes its essential characters. Toad from Mario has appeared since day 1 and still isn't even an assist trophy, Bandana Dee is indisputably a defining character in modern Kirby games and isn't playable, and some games don't even have reps (Rhythm Heaven, Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc.). Plus, once the essentials are added, there really isn't a need to overrepresent a series imo, even if they'd be fun. I'm sure Piranha Plant is fun to play as, but I'd much prefer it be a one time thing.

 

[Sabertooth]

I agree with Mogisthelioma that Bandana Dee has much more versatility than any human because he's a cartoon character and doesn't have to abide by realistic human anatomy and physics. The spear copter is just one example, but just play Star Allies with him and you'll see what I mean. Ain't no regular person pulling off any of those moves.

 

[PeridotGX]

Incineroar is still a horrible inclusion. He plays like garbage, but I would probably be able to main Decidueye.

 

[WaddleMatt]

This is something I can't really argue with, since I guess it's just a matter of opinion, but I do strongly feel that sales and iconic-ness should definitely contribute to rep count in addition to fanservice and moveset potential. I stick to the "Smash is a a game of icons" ideology and I see you take a much less conservative approach, which is fine, but there are some things you didn't take into account: not every franchise includes its essential characters. Toad from Mario has appeared since day 1 and still isn't even an assist trophy, Bandana Dee is indisputably a defining character in modern Kirby games and isn't playable, and some games don't even have reps (Rhythm Heaven, Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc.). Plus, once the essentials are added, there really isn't a need to overrepresent a series imo, even if they'd be fun. I'm sure Piranha Plant is fun to play as, but I'd much prefer it be a one time thing.

Pretty good points. I am actually a huge supporter for Toad and a RH rep (specifically the Tap Trial Girl) and as you can see from my profile picture, I am an absolutely massive supporter for Bandana Dee and Isaac.

 

[Wiinner159]

Male Inkling has a pretty cool design that is just as good as the female design. I appreciate it more because of all the blues that he gets.

 

[Tetrin]

Anyone who thinks Sheik should be cut for being irrelevant but actively vies for Skull Kid to be playable is a hypocrite. Sheik is from a more successful, iconic, popular, and well-received game than Skull Kid, and I think Ocarina of Time should definitely keep a rep of its own. Not to say Skull Kid shouldn't be in-- I think he should-- it's just that Sheik is from overall a better game the Skull Kid.

Also, Impa should be added, but only as a semi-clone.

It hurts to say, but I think Young Link and Toon Link should be cut. They're too similar to each other and both derive from a different version of themselves, so sorry, but I think y'all gotta go. I think Midna could take over.

I think if BotW was to get a rep, it shouldn't be a champion or Kass. Instead, Monk Maz Koshia would do the job just right. I still think the champions are an all-or-nothing bundle, and it'd be a disservice to the excluded champions if only one got in because they're all equally amazing imo, and what would Kass even do moveset-wise? Play his accordion for like, 95% of his moves? Maz Koshia is like the supreme ruler of shrines, has commendable moveset potential, and if you think about it, serves as somewhat of a champion-like role in guarding the Divine Beast.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It hurts to say, but I think Young Link and Toon Link should be cut. They're too similar to each other and both derive from a different version of themselves, so sorry, but I think y'all gotta go. I think Midna could take over.

This should only happen if the main Link becomes a big Young Link. I could handle playing as either Link before, but BotW Link feels awkward to me.

 

[Tetrin]

This should only happen if the main Link becomes a big Young Link. I could handle playing as either Link before, but BotW Link feels awkward to me.

He will eventually I'm sure. BotW won't be relevant forever.

 

[Madwario]

I thought i just saw stuffs but the more i play the more it seems that there is a slight chance the CPU will suddenly dodge all your attacks and hit you back in perfection.

It happened to me today vs a Spirit beginner level on Spirit board who i fought like 100 times already.

 

[RadiantTactician]

The way Cloud and Final Fantasy in general has been treated in Smash Bros. almost makes me not want another Square Enix rep even though a lot of my most desired newcomers are from that company.

 

[Sabertooth]

I care more about character's identities than the movesets they use. Characters like Monster Hunter, Steve, and Fortnite Default Skin might have cool movesets, but since they're only avatars and not real characters, the excitement of playing as them isn't as present for me. I enjoy playing as specific entities to whom I or others have a close connection, not loose representations of gameplay. This is also why I wish they'd make more echo fighters.

 

[Idon]

I thought i just saw stuffs but the more i play the more it seems that there is a slight chance the CPU will suddenly dodge all your attacks and hit you back in perfection.

It happened to me today vs a Spirit beginner level on Spirit board who i fought like 100 times already.

That's because the AI reads your inputs.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

At this point the rest of the newcomers should have designs we've never seen before in Smash. I'm gonna get sick if we get another random edgelord or human sword wielder.

 

[Idon]

At this point the rest of the newcomers should have designs we've never seen before in Smash. I'm gonna get sick if we get another random edgelord or human sword wielder.

Technically, all newcomers have designs we've never seen before in Smash.

 

[Vierge]

there's a reason why Eevee was chosen to be the alternative to Let's Go Pikachu.

?? plz extrapolate

It hurts to say, but I think Young Link and Toon Link should be cut. They're too similar to each other and both derive from a different version of themselves, so sorry, but I think y'all gotta go. I think Midna could take over.

No. It hurts to read that.

 

[Curious Villager]

It hurts to say, but I think Young Link and Toon Link should be cut. They're too similar to each other and both derive from a different version of themselves, so sorry, but I think y'all gotta go. I think Midna could take over.

The way you worded that makes it sound like you want Midna as the next Link clone.

I mean, I guess that could work if you took a good number of creative liberties....

 

[Wiinner159]

Here's one that's most certainly unpopular, mostly because people care more about fighters in terms of representation than anything else.

Personally I think some series should have much more music and remixes to represent them than they have currently in Smash. For example, Donkey Kong as a franchise has just one song from Tropical Freeze, which has a really solid library of great tunes to pull from due to David Wise's return to the franchise, and yet most of what's there is just remixes of Jungle Hijinx alongside an admittedly good collection of DKC 1 and 2 songs. That's just one of the better ones honestly, Metroid couldn't be any less representative of anything other than Metroid 1, and even then it's mostly just a collection of remixes. The Metroid Prime Trilogy is a fan favorite and yet it in total gets 5 songs with one being the multiplayer theme which was a mode that doesn't really represent the game at all and another being a theme from the DS title? Like Prime 3, despite being filled with an assortment of memorable and very well composed battle themes gets absolutely zero love whatsoever whereas the pretty much universally hated Other M gets three songs and two of which being just boring "this is threatening" music. It's just so odd to me that franchises that aren't even Nintendo like Mega Man and Castlevania (which don't get me wrong they absolutely deserve the amount of music they have, I just wish they weren't the only ones with that much love put into them) get much more songs that are equally spread about through the series' lifespan, albeit leaning much more towards the classics.

To see what I mean, here's a collection of Metroid and DK songs that aren't in Smash that would work great as battle themes

Spoiler