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Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

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Opossum

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What you want is costumes, not echoes.
Costumes don't get unique idle stances, taunts, win quotes, or in some cases, attacks and Final Smashes, among other things. Look at how vast the difference is between how Alph is seen and how, say, Richter is seen.

Character swaps as costumes suck. I'd take an echo over that garbage any day.
 

slrigeigdew

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The turnip change is (or rather was) emblematic of the greater problem with echoes: that being the benefits of using them over the orginal don't outweigh the negatives. For example, why main :ultpit:when :ultdarkpit: is the same but has stronger specials with little to no downsides? The same would have applied to :ultpeach::ultdaisy: if one of their turnips was found to better than the other since they're also 99.9% the same. I'm glad to see that the turnip thing was just an oversight tho.

Costumes don't get unique idle stances, taunts, win quotes, or in some cases, attacks and Final Smashes, among other things. Look at how vast the difference is between how Alph is seen and how, say, Richter is seen.

Character swaps as costumes suck. I'd take an echo over that garbage any day.
Hard agree. Plus if they were echoes of characters from different series (like melee :ultganondorf:) they obviously wouldn't work as costumes.
 

Gimmick-Hater

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It depends on the situation. Injustice 2 had different characters as outfits for other characters. Hal Jordan could be swapped out for John Stewart, and Raiden could be swapped out for Black Lightning. Both John & Lightning had unique intros, dialogue, animations, and Lightning even had an alteration to her super attack desipite just being an alternate.

Edit: So if Nintendo really wanted to, they could definitely take that approach.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I honestly never minded alternate costumes. Alph felt fine to me, really. Could use better taunts/idles(though idles could affect hisboxes, I guess? So maybe taunts is enough), but it wasn't too big of a deal overall, imo. In Smash 4, the only one that felt too different was Dr. Mario as a whole. The rest felt like they could've been reasonable as alternate costumes. Though I do agree with Dark Pit using the 3 Light-related items is way too OOC. Lucina doesn't feel like it would've made a difference. We also do know alt costumes can get different taunts(as shown with Robin and Corrin), but they're nearly identical ones even then.

It's too bad the turnips were an oversight. That's honestly a nice way to separate Peach and Daisy. Having slightly different hurtboxes just feels pointless for separation. The rest still have something a bit more tangible. A different weapon type, a different core ability(the lack of a tipper type stuff for Chrom and Lucina are nice. Chrom's different Up B is nice too). Dark Pit has a few different moves. Ken has completely different moves for his Input Commands, but also a decent amount of variant moves. Dark Samus I can't honestly remember anything but aesthetic differences, but she looks even more different than Daisy in comparison. I think she might've had a few different damages, or something?
 

Opossum

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We also do know alt costumes can get different taunts(as shown with Robin and Corrin), but they're nearly identical ones even then.
They have different voice clips, but the actual animations are the exact same. That's what matters. Costumes can't have different taunt animations since those affect hitboxes.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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They have different voice clips, but the actual animations are the exact same. That's what matters. Costumes can't have different taunt animations since those affect hitboxes.
I honestly remember the animations being different.

My bad. Welp. Doesn't Alph have an actual unique voice they could add for his taunts at least?
 

Opossum

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I honestly remember the animations being different.

My bad. Welp. Doesn't Alph have an actual unique voice they could add for his taunts at least?
Both Olimar and Alph have voices, but they're weirdly mute in Smash, like Isabelle.
 

Opossum

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Weird. That'd be perfect to change. No clue on why Isabelle's a silent knight, really.
Like, I figured maybe it was because Olimar, Alph, and Isabelle speak in digitized gibberish, but then again so do the Inklings and they speak in Smash.

Even weirder when you consider Isabelle had her Animalese voice in her trailer.
 

King Sonnn DeDeDoo

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Like, I figured maybe it was because Olimar, Alph, and Isabelle speak in digitized gibberish, but then again so do the Inklings and they speak in Smash.

Even weirder when you consider Isabelle had her Animalese voice in her trailer.
I know it seems like a small thing, but Isabelle not speaking Animalese really disappointed me. I'm someone who is actually fine with the beast voices for Bowser, DK, Diddy, etc. but it feels like they gutted part of the Animal Crossing charm in Isabelle's smash appearance.
 

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Melee :ultfalco: is the perfect example of the ideal clone/echo. He shares the same moveset and even the same animations as :ultfox:but has different properties and functions (hitstun on blaster, spike on Dair,etc.) as well as different attributes(better jumps at the cost of ground speed)

It saves time and cost by using a pre made moveset but it's also distinct enough to play differently from the orginal without overshadowing it.
 

Yoshi_smash

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  • Yoshi should have a second representative of his franchise (such as Poochy)
  • The Koopalings and Alph should be standalone fighters, not alternates
  • Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard should each be standalone fighters (without a Pokémon Trainer)
  • There are too many clones / echo fighters (such as Chrom, Lucina, Daisy, Dark Pit, etc.)
  • There are too many Fire Emblem characters
  • There are too many sword characters
  • Some of the Pokémon chosen for the roster are too human-like (Mewtwo, Lucario and Incineroar)
  • Instead of Greninja, Mewtwo, Pichu, and Lucario, I'd rather see other Pokémon such as Meowth and Feraligatr
  • Dr. Mario should be considered an echo fighter
  • Tails (from Sonic franchise) should be a DLC fighter
  • There are too many human / humanoid characters (they make up roughly 75% of the roster)
  • Smash for the Wii U (Smash 4) is better than Ultimate in some ways (such as the online experience)
  • Yoshi is the best character in the series (my opinion)
 
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Opossum

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  • There are too many human / humanoid characters (they make up roughly 75% of the roster)
Even if you include characters like Mario, Ness, and the Ice Climbers, who look nothing like normal humans, this is factually incorrect, not an unpopular opinion.
 

Yoshi_smash

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Even if you include characters like Mario, Ness, and the Ice Climbers, who look nothing like normal humans, this is factually incorrect, not an unpopular opinion.
Wanting to have more non-human fighters in the game is an opinion (not a fact).

Mario, Ness and the Ice Climbers are basically humans / humanoids, as are Luigi, Link, Ganondorf, etc. Only about 25% of the roster is non-human (Duck Hunt, Ivysaur, Piranha Plant, Ridley, R.O.B., etc.) The placement of some fighters is debatable.
 
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Opossum

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Wanting to have more non-human fighters in the game is an opinion (not a fact).

Mario, Ness and the Ice Climbers are basically humans / humanoids, as are Luigi, Link, Ganondorf, Fox, Falco, etc. Only about 25% of the roster is non-human (Duck Hunt, Ivysaur, Piranha Plant, Ridley, etc.)
It's more than 25%. That's not even an opinion.

Even if you follow the absolute strictest definition of human, we'd have:
:ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultdk::ultdiddy::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultincineroar::ultgreninja::ultisabelle:
:ultjigglypuff::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlucario::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultpacman::ultpichu::ultpikachu:
:ultpiranha::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultridley::ultrob::ultsonic::ultwolf::ultyoshi:

That's roughly 37% of the roster, and that's not even including clearly non-standard humanoids like Olimar and Mr. Game and Watch.
 

Yoshi_smash

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It's more than 25%. That's not even an opinion.

Even if you follow the absolute strictest definition of human, we'd have:

:ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultdk::ultdiddy::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultincineroar::ultgreninja::ultisabelle:
:ultjigglypuff::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlucario::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultpacman::ultpichu::ultpikachu:
:ultpiranha::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultridley::ultrob::ultsonic::ultwolf::ultyoshi:

That's roughly 37% of the roster, and that's not even including clearly non-standard humanoids like Olimar and Mr. Game and Watch.
The point I was making is that there are too many human characters like Marth and Ryu. Even if we agree that 37% of the roster is non-human, that's still only about a third of the roster.

The placement of Falco, Fox, Incineroar, Lucario, Mewtwo, Sonic, Isabelle, King Dedede and King K. Rool is debatable, because they have a mixture of human and non-human traits, and so could be placed in either category (human or non-human). If they are considered human / humanoid, that would put the total number of non-humans at about 25% of the roster. If, however, they are considered non-human (as you grouped them), that puts it at roughly 37% of the roster.
 

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The point I was making is that there are too many human characters like Marth and Ryu. Even if we agree that 37% of the roster is non-human, that's still only about a third of the roster.

The placement of Falco, Fox, Incineroar, Lucario, Mewtwo, Sonic, Isabelle, King Dedede and King K. Rool is debatable, because they have a mixture of human and non-human traits, and so could be placed in either category (human or non-human). If they are considered human / humanoid, that would put the total number of non-humans at about 25% of the roster. If, however, they are considered non-human (as you grouped them), that puts it at roughly 37% of the roster.
Ok, so what Non-human characters would you pick? Cuz other than Spryo or someother Pokémon I can't see anything else getting in Smash.
 

Yoshi_smash

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Ok, so what Non-human characters would you pick? Cuz other than Spryo or someother Pokémon I can't see anything else getting in Smash.
Somewhat realistic:

Toad (or Captain Toad)
Boshi
Birdo (from Mario franchise)
Poochy (from Yoshi franchise)
Feraligatr (a Pokémon)
Timber and/or Krunch (from Diddy Kong Racing)
Wart (from Super Mario Bros. 2)
Generic Koopa Troopa
Spyro
Agumon or Guilmon (from Digimon franchise)
Tails (from Sonic franchise)
Shadow (from Sonic franchise)
Banjo & Kazooie
Crash Bandicoot

Less realistic:

Stitch (Disney character)
Toothless (How To Train Your Dragon character, owned by DreamWorks)

(Note: with the addition of King K. Rool, Ridley and Piranha Plant, the Smash franchise is moving is the right direction).
 
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Opossum

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Somewhat realistic:

Toad (or Captain Toad)
Boshi
Birdo (from Mario franchise)
Poochy (from Yoshi franchise)
Feraligatr (a Pokémon)
Timber (from Diddy Kong Racing)
Wart (from Super Mario Bros. 2)
Generic Koopa Troopa
Spyro
Agumon or Guilmon (from Digimon franchise)
Tails (from Sonic franchise)
Shadow (from Sonic franchise)
Banjo & Kazooie
Crash Bandicoot

Less realistic:

Stitch (Disney character)
Toothless (How To Train Your Dragon character, owned by DreamWorks)

(Note: with the addition of King K. Rool, Ridley and Piranha Plant, the Smash franchise is moving is the right direction).
I think you and I have very different definitions of "realistic."

Really I'd only consider Toad, Crash, Spyro, Banjo, maybe Birdo as an echo, and MAYBE Agumon as semi-realistic. Tails and Shadow would be if they weren't explicitly disconfirmed, but the rest are incredibly far from realistic in my eyes.

That and, if you somehow consider Falco, K. Rool, and Isabelle too human, then several of these from your list would be too (namely Crash, Banjo, Tails, and Shadow). And what makes Toad less human than, say, Olimar?

I just...really don't get where you're coming from here.
 
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Daisycakes

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Melee :ultfalco: is the perfect example of the ideal clone/echo. He shares the same moveset and even the same animations as :ultfox:but has different properties and functions (hitstun on blaster, spike on Dair,etc.) as well as different attributes(better jumps at the cost of ground speed)

It saves time and cost by using a pre made moveset but it's also distinct enough to play differently from the orginal without overshadowing it.
I think the problem is that something like Melee Falco still needed to be balanced versus the whole cast like a non-clone was. The roster has gotten so big that balancing a clone is basically like balancing a newcomer. This might also be why the team seems to focus on new animations more than changing numbers.

When we saw Echoes for the first time we saw them show stuff like Daisy and Richter's victory screens, or Dark Samus and Daisy's entrance animations and effects. Even when the differences between Samus and Dark Samus were shown, it was mainly the look of the missile and the tweaked attack animation, plus a taunt. They also focused quite a bit on Daisy's idle animation.
 

Mogisthelioma

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To clarify on the "non-humans" argument....

Resemble humans (Including hylians which are basically the same): 24 total (32%)
:ultbayonetta::ultfalcon::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultike::ultjoker::ultlink::ultlittlemac::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultpalutena::ultrobin::ultroy::ultchrom::ultryu::ultken::ultsheik::ultshulk::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultsnake::ultzelda::ultzss::ultsamus:

Cartoon style characters that resemble humans: 19 total (25.3%)
:ultdoc::ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmario::ultgnw::ultness::ultolimar::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrosalina::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwiifittrainer::ultyounglink:

Anthropomorphic characters with humanoid figures: 7 total (9.3%)
:ultfox::ultfalco::ultwolf::ultlucario::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultsonic:

Biological relatives to humans: 2 total (2.67%)
:ultdk::ultdiddy:

Non-human in any way: 23 total (30.67%)
:ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultjigglypuff::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultpacman::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultpikachu::ultpiranha::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultridley::ultrob::ultyoshi::ultdarksamus:

So it's fair to say that Smash has plenty of human characters but in fact they make up less than a third of the roster. Cartoon style humans make up just over a quarter of the roster, but over 40% of the roster is composed of fighters that resemble humans in little to no ways at all.

My unpopular opinion is that the next smash game should focus more on having cartoon-style newcomers. I'm beginning to get tired of the current style human characters are taking. If you grey scaled all of the Fire Emblem characters plus Cloud, Link, and Joker and showed them to people who didn't play video games, I doubt they would be able to spot many major differences between them. Not that I have anything against Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, Zelda, or Persona, I just wish we could get more cartoon characters.

I really appreciate how cartoon characters all have bright, flashy colors that add beauty to the screen and have quirky designs. The majority of newcomers so far have done a great job of adding diversity to the roster. I hope that the next smash game continues this trend as well.
 

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I think the problem is that something like Melee Falco still needed to be balanced versus the whole cast like a non-clone was. The roster has gotten so big that balancing a clone is basically like balancing a newcomer. This might also be why the team seems to focus on new animations more than changing numbers.

When we saw Echoes for the first time we saw them show stuff like Daisy and Richter's victory screens, or Dark Samus and Daisy's entrance animations and effects. Even when the differences between Samus and Dark Samus were shown, it was mainly the look of the missile and the tweaked attack animation, plus a taunt. They also focused quite a bit on Daisy's idle animation.
Sad but true. I just wished if wanted to change the numbers they would do it on more moves and in a meaningful way, rather than make them straight up better.

Speaking of changing numbers, I'm glad they gave Pichu more self damage on all his moves. Pichu is a volatile character, if you're not constantly on edge of dying at low percents then something's wrong. They didn't touch his combos so he still deletes stocks like crazy.
 

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I think the problem is that something like Melee Falco still needed to be balanced versus the whole cast like a non-clone was. The roster has gotten so big that balancing a clone is basically like balancing a newcomer. This might also be why the team seems to focus on new animations more than changing numbers.

When we saw Echoes for the first time we saw them show stuff like Daisy and Richter's victory screens, or Dark Samus and Daisy's entrance animations and effects. Even when the differences between Samus and Dark Samus were shown, it was mainly the look of the missile and the tweaked attack animation, plus a taunt. They also focused quite a bit on Daisy's idle animation.
Marth and Lucina are fine. They just need one meaningful difference between them, not different properties to everything. I want a reason to use one or the other, ideally as a matter of preference.

I don't keep up with Ryu/Ken players but Marth and Lucina aren't so one-sided. In Smash 4 the balance leaned a little towards Marth and now it's more towards Lucina, but there are users of both, people who prefer each, and that's what's important.
 

UserKev

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I consider Armor Suit Samus, Falcon and Little Mac the most interesting as the characters that resemble humans because they have mythical feels to them. The more cartoon style like DK, Diddy Kong and non human characters (Creative entities), I want Sakurai to focus on.

Skull Kid, Sukapon, Bandana Dee, Crash, Spyro, Rayman to list some examples.
 

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Marth and Lucina are fine. They just need one meaningful difference between them, not different properties to everything. I want a reason to use one or the other, ideally as a matter of preference.

I don't keep up with Ryu/Ken players but Marth and Lucina aren't so one-sided. In Smash 4 the balance leaned a little towards Marth and now it's more towards Lucina, but there are users of both, people who prefer each, and that's what's important.
The property difference between Marth and Lucina is the meaningful difference. It affects their follow ups, combos, and kill options. Marth can win insanely early if you can space with him correctly but his sour spot is like a wet noodle, whereas Lucina has a guaranteed hit every time.
 

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All these character leaks are well and good but can someone leak some new single player modes and changes to the online? These are arguably just as important as the DLC fighter pass. Stage Builder was the best thing they brought back and breathe new life into the game from a casual perspective. I want to see more of that in Version 4.0
 

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Dunno if it's unpopular or not but character support threads are the biggest echo chambers contained in this site and cannot be used as evidence for popularity
Yeah I'll take your word for it since I only lurk there when there's big news surrounding a character. I'm glad people are excited for their picks but alot of the behavior I'm seeing now is eerily similar to what happened in the lead up to last direct.

Also yeah I strongly agree about the evidence for popularity thing. Infact I'll go one step further and say fan made character polls/ballots aren't evidence of popularity either.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Dunno if it's unpopular or not but character support threads are the biggest echo chambers contained in this site and cannot be used as evidence for popularity
They're really only meant for discussion on a character and related topics. It's annoying to see someone argue "Isaac's thread has the most posts so therefore he's the most popular."
 

osby

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Like, I figured maybe it was because Olimar, Alph, and Isabelle speak in digitized gibberish, but then again so do the Inklings and they speak in Smash.

Even weirder when you consider Isabelle had her Animalese voice in her trailer.
I've always thought their developers didn't want them to vocalize when they got hit and stuff.
 

PhantomShab

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People who use the "silent majority" argument for defending characters that had no real support bases only say it because it just so happened to line up with their tastes.
 

Kokiden

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Joker is fine exactly how he is. No buffs or nerfs needed. No, he's not OP. MKLeo is just that good.

Discussion around the web seem to think he's broken and in dire needs of nerfs, which I highly disagree with.
 

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Don't know how unpopular this is but I dont like how 3.0 update wasn't delivered in a traditional smash direct format and hope this doesn't become a trend for the future major updates. Part of it is because I love the feeling of Sakurai speaking directly to us in a normal direct. Most it is because I want to see Chair Theory 2.0 manifest again and revel in the chaos when it falls apart.
God, ask and ye shall receive. Sakurai really is the gift that keeps giving. Never change Smash community
 
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Wyoming

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Joker is fine exactly how he is. No buffs or nerfs needed. No, he's not OP. MKLeo is just that good.

Discussion around the web seem to think he's broken and in dire needs of nerfs, which I highly disagree with.
Do think Wings of Rebellion needs less frames of invincibility.
 
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Kokiden

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Do think Wings of Rebellion needs less frames of invincibility.
You mean the startup invincibility lasts for too long?

I dunno. Usually when that move is being used, it’s below stage and the opponent is usually up on top.

It’s very easy to 2 frame and prevent Joker from getting back on stage.
 

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Joker is fine exactly how he is. No buffs or nerfs needed. No, he's not OP. MKLeo is just that good.

Discussion around the web seem to think he's broken and in dire needs of nerfs, which I highly disagree with.
I think Arsene Counter (tetracard?) needs to be nerfed. It's too fast and too strong, I'd be happy if either got nerfed. It just doesn't feel fun when it's not even safe to attack a character that's already in an advantageous state (due to Arsene). I think Arsene is fine, I think the Rebel's Guard and Gauge is fine, but that counter is busted.
 

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I know they won't do this, but I wish they would just change how Joker's Persona resource works so that opponents can actually play around it better rather than inevitably just having to run away.
 
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