Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Cutie Gwen]

Joker is fine exactly how he is. No buffs or nerfs needed. No, he's not OP. MKLeo is just that good.

Discussion around the web seem to think he's broken and in dire needs of nerfs, which I highly disagree with.

I think him not getting Rebel boosts when teammates are hit in doubles would be a fair nerf tbh

 

[UserKev]

I disagree now. Bowser, DK and Diddy Kong shouldn't have speaking voices in Smash. Mario and King Dedede makes more sense to have a chatter sense. When you think about it, a lot of characters in Smash shouldn't speak because it takes away that personal Smash feel.

Ashley, a RH rep, Isaac and Gengar, I consider these characters filler. They still have merit for Smash. That's just how I see them.

 

[slrigeigdew]

I doubt they would go back to Gen 1 but if they ever did, Gengar with a Pokken inspired moveset would be the one I'd get behind. (I also like how one of their victory animations in that game break the 4th wall. I have a soft spot for characters that do that.)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Erdrick does get revealed as the next DLC character on Tuesday. I just can't get excited for him tbh. All hype I would of had for any character had been dampered given how much he's been talked to death. Its the same reason I couldn't get excited when Kencineroar was confirmed.

 

[slrigeigdew]

If Erdrick does get revealed as the next DLC character on Tuesday. I just can't get excited for him tbh. All hype I would of had for any character had been dampered given how much he's been talked to death. Its the same reason I couldn't get excited when Kencineroar was confirmed.

Understandable.I can't get hyped for him for a similar reason. I don't like how discussion around him is not IF Erdrick going to be announced for Smash but WHEN he is. Kinda takes the fun outta speculation.

 

[Kokiden]

I think Arsene Counter (tetracard?) needs to be nerfed. It's too fast and too strong, I'd be happy if either got nerfed. It just doesn't feel fun when it's not even safe to attack a character that's already in an advantageous state (due to Arsene). I think Arsene is fine, I think the Rebel's Guard and Gauge is fine, but that counter is busted.

FE counters works the same way.

I know they won't do this, but I wish they would just change how Joker's Persona resource works so that opponents can actually play around it better rather than inevitably just having to run away.

You mean make it harder to get Arsene? Or shorten the time he’s out?

Arsene doesn’t last long when people go ham on him.

I think him not getting Rebel boosts when teammates are hit in doubles would be a fair nerf tbh

That one I would agree with. No reason he should get a boost when it’s not him getting hit by

 

[Call_Me_Red]

FE counters works the same way.



You mean make it harder to get Arsene? Or shorten the time he’s out?

Arsene doesn’t last long when people go ham on him.



That one I would agree with. No reason he should get a boost when it’s not him getting hit by

Joker is tied for fastest counter in the game, which also acts as a reflector. I'm not positive on knockback stats, but I'd bet it's one of the stronger ones. Also, considering how fast and powerful he is with Arsene, I'd argue that (with Arsene) he's better than the FE swordies in general. Sure Arsene has a time / damage limit, but if I can't approach and can't do anything besides absolutely true combos, he essentially beats every option I have (as long as the player reads right). Also it has such a big activation hurtbox and attack hitbox that with certain characters it can kill of off basic recoveries (e.g. King K propeller is a free kill, Marth/Lucina up b is a free kill, Bayo up b is a free kill, etc.)

TL;DR
-Fastest counter in game
-I can't attack or throw projectiles
-I either run from Arsene or get lucky
-Plz nerf counter

 

[Rhus]

You mean make it harder to get Arsene? Or shorten the time he’s out?

Arsene doesn’t last long when people go ham on him.

Arsene's current resource system is bad game design in a competitive game.

• Joker's gauge fills drastically faster while being hit, and by consequence, you are punished by capitalizing on his weakest phase of the game. Even if you are winning vs Joker without Arsene, you are enabling him to get Arsene by winning
• Joker loses Arsene faster while being hit, but it's dangerous to go ham on him when he does so much more damage and has gigantic, forgiving hitboxes. While you can 2 frame his Arsene recovery, the invincibility is far too generous right now
• In essence, by winning against Joker, you put yourself in a worse position, and by trying to reduce his time with Arsene, you must make it through a myriad of dangerous high damage hitboxes equipped with the strongest and fastest counter in the game and a reflector. That is the definition of overloaded.

Joker's Arsene resource is very poorly designed from a balance perspective. I don't know if Joker is the best in the game or if he even strictly needs nerfs, but he certainly does not allow his opponent to play constructively against him.

I do believe either non-Arsene Joker needs to be noticeably weaker, or his resource mechanic needs to be tweaked to make him healthier.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Arsene's current resource system is bad game design in a competitive game.

• Joker's gauge fills drastically faster while being hit, and by consequence, you are punished by capitalizing on his weakest phase of the game. Even if you are winning vs Joker without Arsene, you are enabling him to get Arsene by winning
• Joker loses Arsene faster while being hit, but it's dangerous to go ham on him when he does so much more damage and has gigantic, forgiving hitboxes. While you can 2 frame his Arsene recovery, the invincibility is far too generous right now
• In essence, by winning against Joker, you put yourself in a worse position, and by trying to reduce his time with Arsene, you must make it through a myriad of dangerous high damage hitboxes equipped with the strongest and fastest counter in the game and a reflector. That is the definition of overloaded.

Joker's Arsene resource is very poorly designed from a balance perspective. I don't know if Joker is the best in the game or if he even strictly needs nerfs, but he certainly does not allow his opponent to play constructively against him.

I do believe either non-Arsene Joker needs to be noticeably weaker, or his resource mechanic needs to be tweaked to make him healthier.

This. anyone who argues that Arsene is "totally fine" or whatever ignores how easily it can be abused. Being able to get it even faster in doubles is the best example. This is the problem I have with Aura and Limit too. It's annoying how effects like this are given to you just for being hit. I really dislike how you can get these buffs for simply playing the game or even losing.

 

[Rhus]

Exactly Mogisthelioma , and to be clear, Joker is just an exacerbated version of this problem. I don't like this mechanic on Cloud, Joker, Mac, or Lucario.

 

[Kokiden]

Going by how people are talking about him, it’s inevitable they’re going to hit him hard with the nerf hammer later.

I don’t think the complaints will stop until he’s nerfed into oblivion.

He’s my favourite character and once he becomes irrelevant, I won’t have any character to root for in the competitive scene. That used to be Bayo but, well, we know how that turned out. Joker will be the same.

I guess I’ll enjoy it while it lasts I suppose.

 

[Rhus]

Going by how people are talking about him, it’s inevitable they’re going to hit him hard with the nerf hammer later.

I don’t think the complaints will stop until he’s nerfed into oblivion.

He’s my favourite character and once he becomes irrelevant, I won’t have any character to root for in the competitive scene. That used to be Bayo but, well, we know how that turned out. Joker will be the same.

I guess I’ll enjoy it while it lasts I suppose.

I'm critiquing his design, not complaining needlessly.

The only time extreme changes like the type you are insinuating have occurred are between games, not via patches. Smash patches are historically very conservative and do minor nerfs as adjustments, rather than reworks or substantial changes.

 

[Kokiden]

I'm critiquing his design, not complaining needlessly.

The only time extreme changes like the type you are insinuating have occurred are between games, not via patches. Smash patches are historically very conservative and do minor nerfs as adjustments, rather than reworks or substantial changes.

It’s cool. Your critique is fine. I was talking generally.

It’s civil here, but everywhere else on the net, you’d think Joker is this unstoppable God who is destroying the game lol.

Even the nerfs in Smash 4 are considered minor? I haven’t heard good things from what they did to Sheik or Greninja. I wasn’t following the scene then so I’m not sure how accurate those claims were.

 

[MacSmitty]

Given recent talks on Banjo And Kazooie along with Erdrick, I believe neither will be shown on Tuesday. But that's just me.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

It’s cool. Your critique is fine. I was talking generally.

It’s civil here, but everywhere else on the net, you’d think Joker is this unstoppable God who is destroying the game lol.

Even the nerfs in Smash 4 are considered minor? I haven’t heard good things from what they did to Sheik or Greninja. I wasn’t following the scene then so I’m not sure how accurate those claims were.

Nah, I think Joker is relatively safe. I think they'll knock him down a peg or two, but I doubt he'll ever fall past high tier.

And the nerfs in Smash 4 were definitely minor (so much so that I don't really remember them). The top tiers in smash 4 never fell below top tier (except Diddy who fell from SS to S tier). Besides, the nerfs this time around are much more reasonable and I think the team is genuinely concerned with giving us a balanced game, this in particular with 3rd party characters.

 

[osby]

I find it weird that people call Erdrick and Steve hard to get excited for because we are talking about them for a few months, but consider years old speculation stars like Banjo hype.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I find it weird that people call Erdrick and Steve hard to get excited for because we are talking about them for a few months, but consider years old speculation stars like Banjo hype.

It's not that weird if you consider people figured Erdrick and Steve were inevitable. Nobody expected Banjo to get in regardless of how discussed he and Kazooie were.

Look at Sm4sh. Chrom was leaked for ages, and as a result people weren't hyped. Lucina, who was even less of a unique character than Chrom was rumoured to be(and eventually came to be) was received better because she wasn't the talked about inevitable character for five months.

Shulk was from a brand new game series and quite cleverly designed, but his inevitable reveal didn't hype as much as Robin's did because Shulk was talked about being inevitable for literal months prior.

 

[Calamitas]

Shulk was from a brand new game series and quite cleverly designed, but his inevitable reveal didn't hype as much as Robin's did because Shulk was talked about being inevitable for literal months prior.

That's not quite true. After Robin and Lucina were revealed, faith in the Gematsu leak did kinda die down, so Shulk wasn't really seen as an inevitability. What did harm his hype was the ESRB leak revealing him a bit before his intended reveal.

 

[slrigeigdew]

I know absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence but I can't follow the logic of Banjo supporters that say his absence at the Microsoft conference somehow makes him More likely to be DLC. Especially when alot of his competition got news yesterday and probably today and tomorrow as well.

 

[Wyoming]

I know absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence but I can't follow the logic of Banjo supporters that say his absence at the Microsoft conference somehow makes him More likely to be DLC. Especially when alot of his competition got news yesterday and probably today and tomorrow as well.

This is due to the fact that insiders and a toy company are hinting at something Banjo. With no revival in sight it makes Smash more plausible.

 

[CureParfait]

I don't get how people think Erdrick and Banjo are lock ins for DLC. Given that they don't really have solid evidence about their inclusion plus the codename brave can be applicable to anyone that isn't Erdrick or Banjo too.

 

[slrigeigdew]

This is due to the fact that insiders and a toy company are hinting at something Banjo. With no revival in sight it makes Smash more plausible.

Weird that Microsoft would skipped over their more relevant and well selling IPs to chose one that has been dormant for years as DLC. But if Nintendo is going for fan appeal over shill picks then it makes some sense I suppose.

I don't get how people think Erdrick and Banjo as lock ins for DLC. Given that they don't really have solid evidence about their inclusion plus the codename brave can be applicable to anyone that isn't Erdrick or Banjo too.

Imagine if brave was a Bravely Default character this whole time and we all disregarded it because it was too obvious?

 

[Megadoomer]

Weird that Microsoft would skipped over their more relevant and well selling IPs to chose one that has been dormant for years as DLC. But if Nintendo is going for fan appeal over shill picks then it makes some sense I suppose.

If we do get Banjo, I feel like the reasoning would be similar to K. Rool, and to a lesser extent, Ridley - nearly two decades of uninterrupted Smash demand, coupled with the ballot, overrides any lack of relevance. (not saying that Ridley wasn't demanded, just that he didn't have the relevance issue, between the Metroid Prime games and Samus Returns)

 

[G-Man0324]

Fox is easy to play.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't get how people think Erdrick and Banjo are lock ins for DLC. Given that they don't really have solid evidence about their inclusion plus the codename brave can be applicable to anyone that isn't Erdrick or Banjo too.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that Rare Ltd. belongs to Microsoft, and it's Microsoft's fault that the Banjo-Kazooie series is dead.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Weird that Microsoft would skipped over their more relevant and well selling IPs to chose one that has been dormant for years as DLC. But if Nintendo is going for fan appeal over shill picks then it makes some sense I suppose.

Sigh... one more time, for the people in the back...

MICROSOFT DOES NOT PICK THE CHARACTERS FOR NINTENDO'S GAME.

And the same goes for any other third party in the history of Smash. They didn't just go up to Square Enix and say "so who do you guys want to see in Smash?" and come out with Cloud. No, they go in with specific characters in mind, and frankly, you'd have to be an idiot to turn down a chance to have a character of yours featured in Smash just because it's not exactly the one you personally would pick. Exposure is exposure, and at the end of the day, you can't get much better exposure than being playable in Smash.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

No offensive to Dabuz, but after watching his "ROSALINA GOT BUFFED...STILL BAD THOUGH" video I'm grateful that he and most top players have no part in this game's fighter balance. It just seem like they'd rather make certain characters and strategies OP over making the roster fun and balanced.

 

[slrigeigdew]

No offensive to Dabuz, but after watching his "ROSALINA GOT BUFFED...STILL BAD THOUGH" video I'm grateful that he and most top players have no part in this game's fighter balance. It just seem like they'd rather make certain characters and strategies OP over making the roster fun and balanced.

This. People assume that just because top players play at high level Smash for years that they're a fair objective source when it comes to game balance, but in reality these same players compete for money and thus have a vested interest in seeing certain characters buffed and nerfed (i.e. Olimar, Joker,etc.)

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Weird that Microsoft would skipped over their more relevant and well selling IPs to chose one that has been dormant for years as DLC. But if Nintendo is going for fan appeal over shill picks then it makes some sense I suppose.

Because. Microsoft. Does. Not. Choose. Smash. DLC. Fighters.

Remember how Sakurai stated that he was given a list of fighters to choose form for DLC? That list was made by Nintendo. Not Microsoft. So if another Microsoft character was on there but Sakurai chose B&K (assuming they were on the list as well) that does not necessarily mean he is trying to gain fan appeal or avoid a shill pick.

And there are still plenty of Microsoft-owned characters that are also fan favorites. It isn't exclusive to B&K.

Unpopular opinion: Master Chief would be the best Microsoft rep in the game and is the most qualified, and neither Steve nor Banjo would represent the company well at all. Microsoft isn't known for buying Rare or Mojang. They didn't make their name in the gaming community through those characters. They did so with their own IP's and built their own success. Master Chief is probably the most recognizable of these icons and would represent Microsoft's image more than Bano or Steve could ever hope to.

 

[slrigeigdew]

Sigh... one more time, for the people in the back...

MICROSOFT DOES NOT PICK THE CHARACTERS FOR NINTENDO'S GAME.

And the same goes for any other third party in the history of Smash. They didn't just go up to Square Enix and say "so who do you guys want to see in Smash?" and come out with Cloud. No, they go in with specific characters in mind, and frankly, you'd have to be an idiot to turn down a chance to have a character of yours featured in Smash just because it's not exactly the one you personally would pick. Exposure is exposure, and at the end of the day, you can't get much better exposure than being playable in Smash.

Because. Microsoft. Does. Not. Choose. Smash. DLC. Fighters.

"
Smash is a game that’s made from everyone’s effort.

1. Both companies have to want the character to join the battle."

-Masahiro Sakurai (http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/)

I know Nintendo is the one who made the list and Sakurai makes the final call but if Nintendo wants characters from another company in their game they need to go through said company and negotiate to clarify which character(s) they can and can't use before they put them on the list of possible DLC to give to Sakurai to approve. I didn't think implying Microsoft has a say in whether Microsoft owned property gets to be used in a non Microsoft owned game was controversial but here we are.

I stand by my original statement that were B&K nominated as DLC it would be a choice fueled by pure fan appeal since he hasn't had a game on a nintendo console in decades and Microsoft hasn't done anything with them outside Remakes and Rare replay.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

No offensive to Dabuz, but after watching his "ROSALINA GOT BUFFED...STILL BAD THOUGH" video I'm grateful that he and most top players have no part in this game's fighter balance. It just seem like they'd rather make certain characters and strategies OP over making the roster fun and balanced.

To be fair, did Rosalina really deserve to get any major nerfs? Not at all; at worst, the only warranted nerfs would be to the BKB values for certain attacks, just so that the rage mechanic doesn't lead to cheap KO moments at low damage percentages.

 

[meleebrawler]

To be fair, did Rosalina really deserve to get any major nerfs? Not at all; at worst, the only warranted nerfs would be to the BKB values for certain attacks, just so that the rage mechanic doesn't lead to cheap KO moments at low damage percentages.

Rosalina seems more like a case of her previous version not playing enough like the devs envisioned more than her power level. She's built to be a puppet fighter, but for the most part Smash 4 players ignored that aspect of Luma in favour of playing the two as a mobile wall, and the devs probably were not happy with that. Developer visions come before tier levels.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"
Smash is a game that’s made from everyone’s effort.

1. Both companies have to want the character to join the battle."

-Masahiro Sakurai (http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/)

I know Nintendo is the one who made the list and Sakurai makes the final call but if Nintendo wants characters from another company in their game they need to go through said company and negotiate to clarify which character(s) they can and can't use before they put them on the list of possible DLC to give to Sakurai to approve. I didn't think implying Microsoft has a say in whether Microsoft owned property gets to be used in a non Microsoft owned game was controversial but here we are.

I stand by my original statement that were B&K nominated as DLC it would be a choice fueled by pure fan appeal since he hasn't had a game on a nintendo console in decades and Microsoft hasn't done anything with them outside Remakes and Rare replay.

That's not the point of what they're saying.

With the exception of Snake, it's Nintendo/Sakurai who goes to the company for a character. If the company says no, there isn't going to be another option by default. They aren't going to be suggesting options either.

What Sakurai is saying here is that a company has to say yes. They have to agree to it overall. He isn't saying companies constantly suggest characters to him(it's happened twice, being Snake and Sonic, and only Snake got in due to this when it was suggested to him again. Otherwise, it was purely Nintendo/Nintendo studios to suggest ideas to Sakurai. He rarely takes ideas from 3rd party companies. Especially since he goes to them first with a very clear concept of what characters he wants playable. This doesn't mean other 3rd party content can't happen. For all we know, Geno was suggested as a costume by SE at that time).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina seems more like a case of her previous version not playing enough like the devs envisioned more than her power level. She's built to be a puppet fighter, but for the most part Smash 4 players ignored that aspect of Luma in favour of playing the two as a mobile wall, and the devs probably were not happy with that. Developer visions come before tier levels.

Whatever the reason for the changes, they definitely hurt Rosalina's overall viability if she's currently in a poor tier position. And we're talking about someone who was never considered broken in Smash Wii U (outside of rage making the high BKB attacks more likely to KO fighters early).

 

[EricTheGamerman]

If we do get Banjo, I feel like the reasoning would be similar to K. Rool, and to a lesser extent, Ridley - nearly two decades of uninterrupted Smash demand, coupled with the ballot, overrides any lack of relevance. (not saying that Ridley wasn't demanded, just that he didn't have the relevance issue, between the Metroid Prime games and Samus Returns)

Can we really say Banjo Kazooie have had nearly two decades of uninterrupted Smash demand when they have had an extremely clear and lengthy interruption in Rare's buyout by Microsoft? People had some interest in adding the series during the Smash 64 and Melee eras when things were starting out, but by 2002 things were pretty much set in stone that Banjo Kazooie in Smash was an impossibility with Microsoft's owning Rare. They were a pipe dream until Phil Spencer lit the fire that inspired the fan base in 2015. That's 13 years of basically no serious support for those characters because they were considered such an impossibility.

It's always felt wrong for certain fans to say, well, "they've been one of the requested characters for 20 years" when the actual majority of that time they weren't. They may have been wanted by a great many people, but Banjo Kazooie speculation in Smash to the heights we've seen it as of recent is actually a fairly new thing in our timeline of Smash. It feels a little disingenuous to put them alongside a Ridley type figure who had a much longer period of demand and much less inherently limiting factors for him becoming playable in Smash, and feels a little bit revisionist.

I love Banjo Kazooie and think they might have a real shot of getting in this time around, and I know people have liked the idea of them for a while, but to say they've been a staple of Smash speculation like certain other characters just isn't entirely true...

 

[Dee Dude]

Honestly, I miss ‘s Melee/Brawl design.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think they should remove the hitbox of Inkling's up B but increase recovery distance.

 

[slrigeigdew]

Weird that Microsoft would skipped over their more relevant and well selling IPs to chose one that has been dormant for years as DLC. But if Nintendo is going for fan appeal over shill picks then it makes some sense I suppose.



Imagine if brave was a Bravely Default character this whole time and we all disregarded it because it was too obvious?

I'm not afraid to admit I was wrong on both fronts. This just leads me to believe that Microsoft cares about B&K about as much Ubisoft cares about Rayman lol

 

[Calamitas]

Well then, I'll get this out while it's fresh: Three fighters in, and I still am not convinced to buy the Fighter's Pass. The way things currently are going, I probably won't get it at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Oooh, ya'll are gonna have a field day with this one;
Banjo Kazooie is overrated.