Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Swamp Sensei]

Dictionaries are imperfect and ever evolving. An imitation is in no wise wholly synonymous with a derivative...the more relevant point you are a case for the legitimacy of corporal punishment, now get lost or tell us what's really bothering you

You need to stop derailing the thread. You need to stop getting into petty arguments. But most importantly you need to stop implying someone is a "case for the legitimacy of corporal punishment."

You have terrible etiquette. You have terrible manners. And you escalated the situation. That comment was unacceptable and you know it.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Alright, I think we need to change the tone of discussion here. The hostile arguments and personal attacks have already started up again.

I'm not sure if this is considered an unpopular opinion, but Master Core should've come back in Smash Ultimate. The alternate forms were genuinely interesting and cool boss fights and Master Fortress in particular was incredible. Plus, it's return could've helped expand on some potential lore and theories about Master Hand and Crazy Hand's origins and what exactly they are. Smash's own lore isn't exactly consistent outside of the existence of Trophies for most of the games in the series (and given that it's first and foremost focus is as a crossover fighting game, it doesn't really need a lot of lore), but the Master Core was an interesting concept and provided a little more intrigue and insight on some of the lore it does have, which was a bit lost with it not returning in Ultimate.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm not sure if this is considered an unpopular opinion, but Master Core should've come back in Smash Ultimate. The alternate forms were genuinely interesting and cool boss fights and Master Fortress in particular was incredible. Plus, it's return could've helped expand on some potential lore and theories about Master Hand and Crazy Hand's origins and what exactly they are. Smash's own lore isn't exactly consistent outside of the existence of Trophies for most of the games in the series (and given that it's first and foremost focus is as a crossover fighting game, it doesn't really need a lot of lore), but the Master Core was an interesting concept and provided a little more intrigue and insight on some of the lore it does have, which was a bit lost with it not returning in Ultimate.

To branch off of this somewhat, I still think Master Shadow should have been in Ultimate as an extra character. One that pulls a Mokujin/Charade and copies a different character each stock.

 

[Oracle Link]

...Isn't it more likely that Kirby using a specific weapon has to be allowed and more needs to be licensed how said weapon is used(these are new animations too, so that does require licensing)? Lore is a fun excuse on its own, but even if it was that case, the rights holders should be allowed to make that decision. It's their IP. How it's used has to be approved of.

It's actually a genius way to incorporate it, anyway. Stuff like lore only makes the game more interesting. It already breaks lore countless times over, but having it once in a while is actually pretty cool. Hell, it's pretty rare when lore isn't broken anyway. XD

I mean yeah thats 100% the reason!
Afterall kirby just casually uses a mastersword whenever he uses the sword ability!
And the master sword is even more exclusive then the keyblade!

 

[fogbadge]

Alright, I think we need to change the tone of discussion here. The hostile arguments and personal attacks have already started up again.

I'm not sure if this is considered an unpopular opinion, but Master Core should've come back in Smash Ultimate. The alternate forms were genuinely interesting and cool boss fights and Master Fortress in particular was incredible. Plus, it's return could've helped expand on some potential lore and theories about Master Hand and Crazy Hand's origins and what exactly they are. Smash's own lore isn't exactly consistent outside of the existence of Trophies for most of the games in the series (and given that it's first and foremost focus is as a crossover fighting game, it doesn't really need a lot of lore), but the Master Core was an interesting concept and provided a little more intrigue and insight on some of the lore it does have, which was a bit lost with it not returning in Ultimate.

yeah the core was quite good it’d be great to have it again

 

[TheZizz]

You need to stop derailing the thread. You need to stop getting into petty arguments. But most importantly you need to stop implying someone is a "case for the legitimacy of corporal punishment."

You have terrible etiquette. You have terrible manners. And you escalated the situation. That comment was unacceptable and you know it.

Feelings matter

And as the natural order sees fit for one to devour another alive from the bottom up. Rejecting homage to the primal forces is a recipe for madness. We are part animal after all

However your unabashed criticism is appreciated

You need to

Actually f that, the most offensive thing I said that was unprovoked was about the "deluge of fire emblem sword fighters" which is a common as opinion, and most fans are calling for non-sword wielders anyway. So on these tenderfoots implying I took the gloves off before them. You want a growing scene that isn't dying? If so then I'm your huckleberry jack

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I know meta is out these days, but I think a proper Smash story mode could only really work with some kind of Wreck-It Ralph meta element. That's the only thing these characters have in common, and that goes even if Smash was just 1Ps. I like WOL's approach to a mishmash world, almost toy-store-ish, but the plot that brings it together doesn't really have any reason to involve these specific characters.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Afterall kirby just casually uses a mastersword whenever he uses the sword ability!
And the master sword is even more exclusive then the keyblade!

No he doesn't.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

To branch off of this somewhat, I still think Master Shadow should have been in Ultimate as an extra character. One that pulls a Mokujin/Charade and copies a different character each stock.

This is not only a genuinely intriguing concept that could shake up battles mid-game a lot in a fun way, but it would've also made Master Hand and Crazy Hand playable on a technicality.

So I'm all for this idea.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

To branch off of this somewhat, I still think Master Shadow should have been in Ultimate as an extra character. One that pulls a Mokujin/Charade and copies a different character each stock.

Fighting Polygon would be awesome for this, I like the sort of implication that instead of transforming, you're controlling random members of an expendable army that swap out each stock. That's already kinda how I like to view some of the Pokemon and Plant.

 

[Oracle Link]

but like, pro-moveset reworks is clearly the majority opinion;

i dovthink certain characters despratly need moveset reworks to feel more like themselves (ganondorf for example) however it gets silly when people say toon link should get a new moveset based on windwaker! Like his moveset fits him perfectly! Same with kirby both need slight tweaks at most!

However i do think mario needs a rework his moves feel disjointed and are too complex (fludd) giving him the tanooki tail and something else instead of fludd and cape would improve him imo!

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

feel disjointed

I dunno if you mean something else, but Mario only has 2 disjoints - Cape and Forward Smash. The Tanooki Tail would also be a disjoint, unless solely used to float.

Also, FLUDD isn't complex - the whole point of FLUDD is to discourage new players from playing strictly offensively, by showing them a scenario where non-damaging manouvers are beneficial. I'd argue it's the most important move in the entire game, and the real problem with FLUDD is that it's an outlier and there aren't more non-offense attacks.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I've always felt that the characters are too distinctive. Like there's the extreme end of this, where you have Steve who plays like Minecraft, Kazuya who plays like Tekken, Mega Man who plays like the NES games, etc. But then even stuff like just, how am I supposed to do anything in a competitive setting with Rosalina And Luma without understanding first the intricacies of puppeteering Luma. How in the heck can I do anything with Mario without knowing his crazy ladder combos. In other platfighters, and even just in other fighters, it does not feel required for you to know any more than like, maybe one bread and butter combo in order to not drown in pools, as long as you're fundamentally good at comp play. But here it's like, if you don't know the Luigi zero to death, you can't really play as him and see any match results.

There is something awful about the way Smash Ultimate handles its characters, but I'm not really sure what it is. (All of them, not just the problem characters like Steve, Sonic, Kazuya, Olimar, etc. I mean everyone.)

Because when I play Rivals or its sequel, I can pick up any character and learn them in an hour. Kragg wants short combos to build percent and kill early. Eliana traps people into her huge explosions. Clairen overwhelms the opponent and spams annoying smashes at ledge.

Not only their playstyle, but also just in the way they move. All characters in those games feel fun to just run and jump around with. TRAINING MODE feels fun. It's crazy.

Because when I play Smash Ultimate, there is just something about the way the characters move that I hate. I just hate it. And I've probably played Terry well over a hundred times, I've played Luigi well over a hundred times, and yet I still don't know what the heck I'm doing with them.

The only character in that game I enjoy playing as is Bowser. Which sucks cause he can't do anything cool other than a nair confirm and some flame breath shenanigans. Also, I've been playing as Bowser since 2019 in all my tournament matches and a good chunk of my casual matches. So he also has the benefit of me spending so much time with him.

IDK man. All the Rivals characters are easy to pick up and play, the Smash ones don't feel that way at all. For what it's worth Multiversus also had this issue but I didn't play most of those characters for obvious reasons. And Nick 1 was just too fast for me but I 100% respect it and I love watching comp matches for it.

On both above.... I can't help feeling it's again the result of Smash primarily been a party fighter first, with anything else secondary - which leads to this juggling of making these DLC characters or even base roster's chars distinctive and appealing enough to justify buying them or the whole game, alongside being easy and fun to just pick up for most casual players to play in the free-for-all modes. It's just only recently in Ultimately that there's been more gearing to appeal at competitive players, but I feel the cases are more on moves or techniques shared with all chars across the board - or the complex chars hailing from more competitive or action-driven games like Kazuya, Terry and before any of them, Bayonetta.

Combine all these with pretty inconsistent balance patches using laggy peer-to-peer online as the scale often leaving certain poorly performing chars offline in the dust (Dorf) - while buffing already good chars in the collective tier list, perhaps for the same reasons.

All that then to come to an abrupt end the instant Sora shook hands with Mario... Yeah.


Sadly I have a hunch that this is gonna continue on like this as Sakurai's not gonna definitely make Smash be more competitively geared and build characters in such mind that they're meant to have certain "playstyles" that can be easily picked up due his primary philosophy of Smash. So they might continue on revolving their overall quirks, moves, attributes or gimmicks, ultimately augmenting their optimal playstyle through experimentation and labbing until fully charted out, and observe how just well these will perform across other matchups next to how much effort or dedication they demand.

Really makes me wish there could be a sole dedicated branch of players or devs explored for balance patches overall that will last beyond character reveals and additions.

 

[TheZizz]

I dunno if you mean something else, but Mario only has 2 disjoints - Cape and Forward Smash. The Tanooki Tail would also be a disjoint, unless solely used to float.

Also, FLUDD isn't complex - the whole point of FLUDD is to discourage new players from playing strictly offensively, by showing them a scenario where non-damaging manouvers are beneficial. I'd argue it's the most important move in the entire game, and the real problem with FLUDD is that it's an outlier and there aren't more non-offense attacks.

I miss Mario's pivot f-smash, just a neat little trick that's not even technically demanding. Bring it all back IMO

 

[MartianSnake]

I miss Pit's Brawl moveset and kinda wish they at the very least gave it to Dark Pit

 

[TheZizz]

I miss Pit's Brawl moveset and kinda wish they at the very least gave it to Dark Pit

The side-b was unique, and not nearly as insurmountable as it might appear to a newbie. But griefers abused it so we can't have nice things. On that note I hope taunts return to net play, artful well-placed taunts are criminally underappreciated and it's not like said abusers have no alternative

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I actually think an underrated problem with FLUDD is that it's not that terribly interesting aesthetic wise. Fans will embrace a ho-hum looking move if it does damage or a non-offensive move if it's cool/flashy. FLUDD having none of the former and (in the eyes of many) not much of the latter renders it as an option without much surface level appeal unless you're a more technically inclined player.

It's funny too because the various non-sprinkler nozzles in Sunshine were often more exciting and the more interesting uses of the sprinkler with stuff like the waterspout spin jump or sliding forward on wet ground aren't options, so you're basically left with the least striking nozzle variation with the most basic function, for the more technically minded of players in battles.

It's not really a surprise the move still hasn't landed with many players even now.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I actually think an underrated problem with FLUDD is that it's not that terribly interesting aesthetic wise. Fans will embrace a ho-hum looking move if it does damage or a non-offensive move if it's cool/flashy. FLUDD having none of the former and (in the eyes of many) not much of the latter renders it as an option without much surface level appeal unless you're a more technically inclined player.

It's funny too because the various non-sprinkler nozzles in Sunshine were often more exciting and the more interesting uses of the sprinkler with stuff like the waterspout spin jump or sliding forward on wet ground aren't options, so you're basically left with the least striking nozzle variation with the most basic function, for the more technically minded of players in battles.

It's not really a surprise the move still hasn't landed with many players even now.

Well, is that not an extra point in the move's favor? That it can encourage players to understand the game on a level beyond just spamming the coolest-looking moves?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Well, is that not an extra point in the move's favor? That it can encourage players to understand the game on a level beyond just spamming the coolest-looking moves?

Perhaps, though the downside with such a larger roster is that barring a win through classic mode for mandatory sections in World of Light, any new player can easily just move on from Mario to other fighters and never look back. Heck the fact that there's literally another Mario without such a non-offensive move probably doesn't help.

I'm not trying to discourage having unorthodox elements like FLUDD, just that from a practical standpoint and with what Smash is now, it's meh status among many fans feels like something not likely to change any time soon.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Perhaps, though the downside with such a larger roster is that barring a win through classic mode for mandatory sections in World of Light, any new player can easily just move on from Mario to other fighters and never look back. Heck the fact that there's literally another Mario without such a non-offensive move probably doesn't help.

I'm not trying to discourage having unorthodox elements like FLUDD, just that from a practical standpoint and with what Smash is now, it's meh status among many fans feels like something not likely to change any time soon.

Yeah, I do think that one of the few upsides of reworks would be to implement more FLUDD and Cape-type moves. Smash should have been using these kinds of moves - both as specials and normals - quite gratitiously, but as it stands it seems that only really "defensive characters" tend to get them.

 

[Greenhorne Ethan]

Maybe this is a bit silly, but with how it's created/directed by a freelancer, developed at Bandai Namco, and contains a lot of third party IP at various levels, I almost don't consider Smash a "Nintendo game" anymore. And I honestly don't mind that, I love the natural integration of third party content by the time of Ultimate.

 

[Oracle Link]

But a weird move like fludd shouldnt really be on mario! Like hes always the basic dude! And mario is Mr.Videogame himself he should be easy to pick up! But i dont think fludd is a good move for beginners or even intermediate players!
Like im decent at smash but i have never really koed with fludd unless i go out of my way too!
Like capes (or tanooki tails) reflective properties
Are already enough complexity to throw onto mario!
Like i have no issue with squirtles watergun as squirtle!
Rule of thumb should be (in any game really)
Do a lot casuals wanna play the character if yes make them relativly simple!

There is a reason that even in games like ones justice or bleach ros the main character is simple to use!

 

[MartianSnake]

But a weird move like fludd shouldnt really be on mario! Like hes always the basic dude! And mario is Mr.Videogame himself he should be easy to pick up! But i dont think fludd is a good move for beginners or even intermediate players!
Like im decent at smash but i have never really koed with fludd unless i go out of my way too!
Like capes (or tanooki tails) reflective properties
Are already enough complexity to throw onto mario!
Like i have no issue with squirtles watergun as squirtle!
Rule of thumb should be (in any game really)
Do a lot casuals wanna play the character if yes make them relativly simple!

There is a reason that even in games like ones justice or bleach ros the main character is simple to use!

Idk who said this and I'm paraphrasing but there's something I heard a long time ago to the effect of "Mario has FLUDD to teach players every fighter is a little weird" (again, paraphrasing)

 

[MasterCheef]

KKR's ( up air ) should be the helicopter

Crownerang should come out way faster & be neutral special

Blunderbuss , should be the side special & come out faster too.

 

[TheZizz]

I actually think an underrated problem with FLUDD is that it's not that terribly interesting aesthetic wise. Fans will embrace a ho-hum looking move if it does damage or a non-offensive move if it's cool/flashy. FLUDD having none of the former and (in the eyes of many) not much of the latter renders it as an option without much surface level appeal unless you're a more technically inclined player.

It's funny too because the various non-sprinkler nozzles in Sunshine were often more exciting and the more interesting uses of the sprinkler with stuff like the waterspout spin jump or sliding forward on wet ground aren't options, so you're basically left with the least striking nozzle variation with the most basic function, for the more technically minded of players in battles.

It's not really a surprise the move still hasn't landed with many players even now.

The fact that Mario uses that piddly "jump punch" to recover instead of rocketing himself with FLUDD is a bit laughable. FLUDD is already slightly adjustable, and expanding it to be able to direct downward would be pretty neat, along with a boost to its velocity. So he could potentially do like Lucas's down-b. Mario could probably stand to have above-average recovery anyway. But then the effort to rework freaking FLUDD might be better spent on something all-new.

 

[AlRex]

Give FLUDD and the Poltergust even to Professor E. Gadd.

 

[TheZizz]

you really can’t handle being proven wrong can you? Wario gave you proof you were wrong and telling me you wanted the meaning of a word that you were using isn’t going to change that

Except I'm not wrong. Peep the noun not the adjective (hence the comparison of "derivative vs. imitation"), and maybe be less of an insufferable malcontent, who just wants to divert the topic ten ways to fish for any logical inconsistency you can grasp at. Not gonna happen by the way

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I feel like Luigi should be updated before Mario. Although I am not sure which special move should be changed.

 

[Perkilator]

I feel like Luigi should be updated before Mario. Although I am not sure which special move should be changed.

Funnily enough, I recently took it upon myself to update them both!

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Funnily enough, I recently took it upon myself to update them both!

My idea for changing them is having Luigi use the Poltergust as a side b but it functions more like King K Rool’s neutral b unlike his grab. Luigi Cyclone remains but its name gets changed to the Spin Jump.

I think Cape should remain since I think Mario should have more then one power up but FLUDD should be replaced by the Ground Pound.

 

[Oracle Link]

I really dont think TheZizz Is trolling!

 

[TheZizz]

My idea for changing them is having Luigi use the Poltergust as a side b but it functions more like King K Rool’s neutral b unlike his grab. Luigi Cyclone remains but its name gets changed to the Spin Jump.

I think Cape should remain since I think Mario should have more then one power up but FLUDD should be replaced by the Ground Pound.

Luigi's side-b may be a relic from the days of "melee crunch" whose time has come...but Smash without "misfire" is unthinkable!

I really dont think TheZizz Is trolling!

Correct, my mention of the "deluge of fire emblem sword fighters" (in line with the very first reply to this thread) as cause to have model swaps for the rest of the cast (a concept later echoed by our resident Valkyrie, to much adulation) triggered a catastrophic chain reaction for the ages. And the smash community wonders why Nintendo wants no association with them. Doh!

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Here's an idea to make FLUDD more visually interesting, with the benefit of being timeless/applicable to any era of Mario: some kind of kamehameha-type animation with a rainbow beam. Referencing the actual super star animation in an indirect, abstract way and doubling down on the "basic fighting guy" element. Compared to fire, a rainbow seems more naturally fit for a non-damaging attack.

Image source

 

[fogbadge]

Except I'm not wrong. Peep the noun not the adjective (hence the comparison of "derivative vs. imitation"), and maybe be less of an insufferable malcontent, who just wants to divert the topic ten ways to fish for any logical inconsistency you can grasp at. Not gonna happen by the way

let me get this straight: you thought it was a good idea to respond to a comment you’d previously responded to and restart a conversation that was over and then accuse me of trying to divert the topic? no wonder people reported you

 

[TheZizz]

let me get this straight: you thought it was a good idea to respond to a comment you’d previously responded to and restart a conversation that was over and then accuse me of trying to divert the topic? no wonder people reported you

I'm setting the record straight. Take the L with dignity

 

[fogbadge]

I'm setting the record straight. Take the L with dignity

no mate, you’re trying to pick a fight. you’ve been told off repeatedly for you’re behaviour. you’re the one who started with the threatening behaviour cause you couldn’t handle being objectively wrong over the canon of the video game series. you’re the one in the wrong. the record is there for everyone to see

 

[TheZizz]

no mate, you’re trying to pick a fight. you’ve been told off repeatedly for you’re behaviour. you’re the one who started with the threatening behaviour cause you couldn’t handle being objectively wrong over the canon of the video game series. you’re the one in the wrong. the record is there for everyone to see

You initiated this off a completely benign opinion, and I'll gladly finish "mate". Our winding exchange left to you comparing a noun with an adjective, it's either ignorant or disingenuous. A derivative and an imitation have distinctions! (Lol)

If you want to flip the chess board now. I accept your concession

 

[fogbadge]

You initiated this off a completely benign opinion, and I'll gladly finish "mate". Our winding exchange left to you comparing a noun with an adjective, it's either ignorant or disingenuous. A derivative and an imitation have distinctions! (Lol)

If you want to flip the chess board now. I accept your concession

no I corrected your misinformation. you asked for the definition of the word which I provided. you are the one who has been going on and on about the definition of the word after saying “words have different meanings”. Stop projecting, stop with the threatening behaviour and move on