Otoad64
Smash Champion
I don’t think the Smash fandom thinks “New = inherently good” or “Old = inherently good” . It seems more like just “Current status quo = inherently good”
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Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)
- Thread starter Perkilator
- Start date
There is something awful about the way Smash Ultimate handles its characters, but I'm not really sure what it is. (All of them, not just the problem characters like Steve, Sonic, Kazuya, Olimar, etc. I mean everyone.)
Because when I play Rivals or its sequel, I can pick up any character and learn them in an hour. Kragg wants short combos to build percent and kill early. Eliana traps people into her huge explosions. Clairen overwhelms the opponent and spams annoying smashes at ledge.
Not only their playstyle, but also just in the way they move. All characters in those games feel fun to just run and jump around with. TRAINING MODE feels fun. It's crazy.
Because when I play Smash Ultimate, there is just something about the way the characters move that I hate. I just hate it. And I've probably played Terry well over a hundred times, I've played Luigi well over a hundred times, and yet I still don't know what the heck I'm doing with them.
The only character in that game I enjoy playing as is Bowser. Which sucks cause he can't do anything cool other than a nair confirm and some flame breath shenanigans. Also, I've been playing as Bowser since 2019 in all my tournament matches and a good chunk of my casual matches. So he also has the benefit of me spending so much time with him.
IDK man. All the Rivals characters are easy to pick up and play, the Smash ones don't feel that way at all. For what it's worth Multiversus also had this issue but I didn't play most of those characters for obvious reasons. And Nick 1 was just too fast for me but I 100% respect it and I love watching comp matches for it.
Because when I play Rivals or its sequel, I can pick up any character and learn them in an hour. Kragg wants short combos to build percent and kill early. Eliana traps people into her huge explosions. Clairen overwhelms the opponent and spams annoying smashes at ledge.
Not only their playstyle, but also just in the way they move. All characters in those games feel fun to just run and jump around with. TRAINING MODE feels fun. It's crazy.
Because when I play Smash Ultimate, there is just something about the way the characters move that I hate. I just hate it. And I've probably played Terry well over a hundred times, I've played Luigi well over a hundred times, and yet I still don't know what the heck I'm doing with them.
The only character in that game I enjoy playing as is Bowser. Which sucks cause he can't do anything cool other than a nair confirm and some flame breath shenanigans. Also, I've been playing as Bowser since 2019 in all my tournament matches and a good chunk of my casual matches. So he also has the benefit of me spending so much time with him.
IDK man. All the Rivals characters are easy to pick up and play, the Smash ones don't feel that way at all. For what it's worth Multiversus also had this issue but I didn't play most of those characters for obvious reasons. And Nick 1 was just too fast for me but I 100% respect it and I love watching comp matches for it.
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From what I recall there was a large contingent who preferred Mario's "old down-b", "the return of Roy" etc. and future installments seem to have obliged this Luddite sentiment.
On the flip side you have fanfic that tends toward the gratuitous and unrestrained. There's a place for the esoteric stuff but if it's at the expense of universal perennial themes like Mario "tipping the cap"? Cappy (Cappit?) is great and all but the taunt lost all its humorous application, hard pass for me. The recycled audio reminds me that Brawl's sound design was second to none.
One could easily argue that FLUDD is similarly "unperennial" (dated) but it's a rather humorous move and emblematic in its own right. Though a shake-up would not go unappreciated. As wouldn't a "DIY" actual custom move feature that lets players adjust basic parameters, making the big honking mega fireball possible once more. Of course time constraints are an ever-present factor vs. simply iterating off previous games. A complete "reboot" would call for a complete overhaul on the level of, say, a 3D fighter not unlike Powerstone
Wario Wario Wario
Smash Legend
I had a pretty similar epiphany when I started playing more non-Smash platfighters and revisited early Smash games. I'm also not sure what it is, but I think that if I had to describe it, it feels like chosing a character in Ultimate is less "choose a playstyle" and more "choose a set of 4 specials and one or two Funny Air Attacks". There is more nuance than that to Ult obviously, but it feels like a game that doesn't want you to know its secrets while other games encourage you to dig deeper.
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I've always felt that the characters are too distinctive. Like there's the extreme end of this, where you have Steve who plays like Minecraft, Kazuya who plays like Tekken, Mega Man who plays like the NES games, etc. But then even stuff like just, how am I supposed to do anything in a competitive setting with Rosalina And Luma without understanding first the intricacies of puppeteering Luma. How in the heck can I do anything with Mario without knowing his crazy ladder combos. In other platfighters, and even just in other fighters, it does not feel required for you to know any more than like, maybe one bread and butter combo in order to not drown in pools, as long as you're fundamentally good at comp play. But here it's like, if you don't know the Luigi zero to death, you can't really play as him and see any match results.
Wario Wario Wario
Smash Legend
NASB2 Jimmy is a good example of this. All of his specials sans the hovercraft are super advanced - befitting a boy genius - but his basic normal move tools are interesting enough and have enough variety, without many particular gimmicks, to make him essentially a fully fledged character without needing to press the special button, and that in turn encourages me to see if I can get the knack of his specials.
I have a lot to say about special moves as a whole, their perception within platfighter discussion and how Smash uses them for design vs. other games, but I think it's something I'm struggling to put into words beyond a seemingly redundant "why do people like the special thing more than the non-special thing?"
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I would like to see a fan resurgence of "western smash Bros" now that the bad taste of NASB(?) is a distant memory. The "slime button" has crazy implications. The teeter mechanic is a stroke of brilliance. It's just a shame that Finn the human couldn't be part of it but for a stroke of fate...then again, if Nintendo square and Sega can join forces, why not Nickelodeon and Cartoon network?
A platform fighters that "plays it straight" with serious characters might have legs too, instead of just reading off sakurais blueprints with the obligatory goofiness factor. Though it is funny that he is able to casually drop game-changing concepts in stages such as the dead zones in great cave offensive, and the "barrier" in king of fighters, almost as an afterthought.
A platform fighters that "plays it straight" with serious characters might have legs too, instead of just reading off sakurais blueprints with the obligatory goofiness factor. Though it is funny that he is able to casually drop game-changing concepts in stages such as the dead zones in great cave offensive, and the "barrier" in king of fighters, almost as an afterthought.
I think having actual in-game resources, character tutorials especially, really helps Rivals out in comparison to other platform fighters, but even aside from that, the characters do feel a lot more intuitive than something like Smash. Even the weird, gimmicky fighters aren't too hard to pick up and play (except Wrastor, good luck). I think a lot of it does come from the characters having good normals like
Wario Wario Wario
is saying. Ori, for instance, is pretty tricky to get the hang of with his glassy nature and pseudo-puppet gimmick, but he has a few really easy buttons like Up Air and Dash Attack that can "carry" you through low-level play (but not beyond) until you're ready to start using Sein. In this sense, the characters are built to have low skill floors and, for the most part, VERY high skill ceilings, making any character engaging to learn and grow with. Being simple to pick up and hard to master is really one of Rivals' chief strengths, and it's something that kinda bums me out that it was lost in translation in Rivals 2. In Smash, meanwhile, most of the characters feel like half their normals are useless and a lot of them end up feeling kinda one-trick as a result. In the words of FUNKe, it's kind of hard to learn a game [or character] if no one knows how it's supposed to be played.
Wario Wario Wario
is saying. Ori, for instance, is pretty tricky to get the hang of with his glassy nature and pseudo-puppet gimmick, but he has a few really easy buttons like Up Air and Dash Attack that can "carry" you through low-level play (but not beyond) until you're ready to start using Sein. In this sense, the characters are built to have low skill floors and, for the most part, VERY high skill ceilings, making any character engaging to learn and grow with. Being simple to pick up and hard to master is really one of Rivals' chief strengths, and it's something that kinda bums me out that it was lost in translation in Rivals 2. In Smash, meanwhile, most of the characters feel like half their normals are useless and a lot of them end up feeling kinda one-trick as a result. In the words of FUNKe, it's kind of hard to learn a game [or character] if no one knows how it's supposed to be played.
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Wario Wario Wario
Smash Legend
Does Smash actually adhere to a "goofiness factor" though? All the "weird" Smash picks have some kind of dumb objective reasoning behind them and are the minority. NASB and MVS more lean into "what would be a neat moveset?" regardless of potential reaction or objective logic, which if you ask me is the only valid way to build a roster, and TBH I'd prefer if those games and Smash all did what Slap City does and went whole-hog on the "wackiness". Let me just get out The Graph again. Got lotsa mileage out of this baby.
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Smash is fettered with patently "unserious" characters (at least in tone & appearance). I'm thinking more along the lines of street fighter's roster with mainly lifelike characters. Seems like pairing that with plat fighter mechanics is an unexplored niche, though not my bag necessarily
Wario Wario Wario
Smash Legend
Ahh, yes, I do see what you mean there. It would be neat to see a platform fighter designed around human(oid) characters primarily. Even Rivals has some wacky quadrupeds and such. The NASB speculation trenches have poisoined me lmao
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Incidentally, the Kirby mythos is gravely serious at its core, a newborn star warrior before his time is urgently tasked with opposing the terror of the universe, the cursed holy nightmare corporation. Perhaps a better phrasing would be "less abstract, more grounded"
that’s the Kirby anime lore
Ostensibly deriving from the plot development in Kirby's Adventure (NES)
have you played Kirby’s Adventure?
Are you bent on opposing my every opinion? Go away
There's also the issue of movement. A lot of combos in Ultimate are really strict, in that the characters just move so stiff and the hitlag just lasts so short (not as bad as Brawl, but close). When I play HDR I can jump into a character I wouldn't play as in base Ultimate (like Sonic) and I can connect a lot of moves with him and it feels fluid.
To solve this Ultimate could make it so that initial dashes don't lock someone in them for as long, and increase hit lag by a bit (there are quite a few moves which literally shave off any attack that's more than a couple of frames late, like luigi cyclone and whirling fortress)
And it should go without saying that the Ultimate air dodge is doo-doo water. Almost always a disadvantage to use it.
To solve this Ultimate could make it so that initial dashes don't lock someone in them for as long, and increase hit lag by a bit (there are quite a few moves which literally shave off any attack that's more than a couple of frames late, like luigi cyclone and whirling fortress)
And it should go without saying that the Ultimate air dodge is doo-doo water. Almost always a disadvantage to use it.
Lore isn’t a matter of opinion. the Kirby anime is not the same as the Kirby games
Melee's interactions are nuts. You can land certain attacks squarely, and get counterattacked at low percentages. No buffer makes for some wild jab struggles too. (Hell, even brawl wolf ditto could turn into a brutal f-smash slugfest.) Truly a product of Nintendo's ambitions as a "powerhouse" amped to 11
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Smash's current roster is magnificent and should be trimmed down to develop more time to understand movesets
Holy nightmare corp. is effectively a "stealer of dreams" as per the NES game. Pupupu land is highly derivative of "Dreamland". If you think the two are night and day then there may be nothing for it but yo settle it in smash?
Among Waddle Dees
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
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Ok, let's be somewhat fair: Smash does not do anything to sell Kirby away from the anime. At all.
Let's be real here, in what universe is metaknight a priority pick over dedede, except the one under the thumb of holy nightmare
except there’s no nightmare enterprises, dedede is actively trying to stop nightmare and not constantly buying monsters from him, meta knight is a rival not a mentor and Kirby is not a baby. Also there’s no tiff, tuff and escargoon and both the cappies and kabu are just mooks
something something Kirby bias indeed
Wario Wario Wario
Smash Legend
Put Texan Dedede in Smash.
Do you know what derivative means? There are vastly more similarities than your comprehensive list of deviations, which are questionable anyway. Kirby is blatantly childlike, metaknight (misguided or not) clearly sees potential in his kinship or at the very least has something to communicate, and dedede was course correcting from a big mistake. The overarching similarities are undeniable and your insistence to the contrary is either bait, or solely because it came from me, or something darker
And the villain is likely ironing the details of his budding LLC. Ya gotta start somewhere right
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derivative means imitation, usually unofficial. I suspect the word you're thinking of is adaptation. I also question this idea that you think it because I'm out to get you, you're simply being factually inaccurate and I am correcting you. something being similar does not make it the same. what you're arguing is that your head canon is factual. it is not. dedede course correcting, you've made that up. being childlike is not the same as actually being a child. nightmare spends most of the game trapped and is only there for the final battle and he hasn't been seen since then.
No, deriving from something is to take from a source material, imitating is different. Stop dude
Wario Wario Wario
Smash Legend
Aww man, if only Nintendo had an official public manual archive so we could evaluate the veracity of these claims about supplimentary Kirby lore from the 1990s that doesn't effect the game plots at all!
And some yarr-harr uploads for the road.
EDIT: Here's the only Kirby strategy guide from the 90s. Nope, no prophecy. At least there's some neat corny late-90s graphic design though.
Also, isn't Dedede just a one-dimensional cartoon villain in RBAY? Something he hasn't really been in the games since Dream Land 1.
And some yarr-harr uploads for the road.
Kirby S Dream Land 3 1997 Nintendo : Hal Laboratory : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
it's the Kirby dream land 3 manual
archive.org
EDIT: Here's the only Kirby strategy guide from the 90s. Nope, no prophecy. At least there's some neat corny late-90s graphic design though.
Also, isn't Dedede just a one-dimensional cartoon villain in RBAY? Something he hasn't really been in the games since Dream Land 1.
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HyperSomari64
Smash Master
It's a game about dreams and imagination (and the stealing thereof). And um yeah. I refuse to believe that the smash community earns its vilification to this day. If it has only ten solid gitsAww man, if only Nintendo had an official public manual archive so we could evaluate the veracity of these claims about supplimentary Kirby lore from the 1990s that doesn't effect the game plots at all!
And some yarr-harr uploads for the road.
Kirby S Dream Land 3 1997 Nintendo : Hal Laboratory : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
it's the Kirby dream land 3 manualarchive.org
Also, isn't Dedede just a one-dimensional cartoon villain in RBAY? Something he hasn't really been in the games since Dream Land 1.
derivative
adjective
- 1.
imitative of the work of another artist, writer, etc., and usually disapproved of for that reason.
I think I wouldn't mention canon to the sonic fans. maybe if it was just oneTell that to Sonic fans
(not sure if i had misunderstood something)
you literally just got handed proof you were wrong. you stopIt's a game about dreams and imagination (and the stealing thereof). And um yeah. I refuse to believe that the smash community earns its vilification to this day. If it has only ten solid gits
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You asked me what if I knew what the meaning was. Don’t get mad cause I could provide an answer
An imitation is commonly understood to be an attempt at a verbatim carbon copy, a derivative is apt to deviate somewhat. "But but but" nahh you're out of pocket, just from me Musing about the awesomeness of No Hoshi Kaabi(?), f outta here
you really can’t handle being proven wrong can you? Wario gave you proof you were wrong and telling me you wanted the meaning of a word that you were using isn’t going to change that
MartianSnake
Smash Ace
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Potentially Unpopular Smash Opinion?
I think pac-man turning into his classic shape for some attacks is pretty cool and wouldn't feel out of place in like, a pac-man platformer as a central gimmick. I don't think it's a clashing idea in the same vein as say, mario turning 8-bit for an attack
I think pac-man turning into his classic shape for some attacks is pretty cool and wouldn't feel out of place in like, a pac-man platformer as a central gimmick. I don't think it's a clashing idea in the same vein as say, mario turning 8-bit for an attack
Warned
Dictionaries are imperfect and ever evolving. An imitation is in no wise wholly synonymous with a derivative...the more relevant point you are a case for the legitimacy of corporal punishment, now get lost or tell us what's really bothering you
you are unbelievable
I accept your terms. Bygones it is