Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Diddy Kong]

A good Echo Fighter for Link would be Link , who ironically is the same person as Young Link, but not his Echo.

I'm dead serious that he'd be a good addition. Many people complain that Adult Link changed too much. So why not?

 

[fogbadge]

A good Echo Fighter for Link would be Link , who ironically is the same person as Young Link, but not his Echo.

I'm dead serious that he'd be a good addition. Many people complain that Adult Link changed too much. So why not?

just put in every link

 

[BritishGuy54]

I hope this doesn't come off as a personal attack or anything, but I really don't get your obsession with modernity and the Switch era. Like, yeah, I do think Smash speculation overlooks series like Animal Crossing and Splatoon, but also, this is a nostalgia series at the end of the day, for better or worse. People thought Ghirahim and Zoroark were locks once, y'know.

There are a couple of reasons.

1. At the end of the day, Smash is partly a marketing tool. Nintendo knows they will need games to market. People complain about first-parties being the ‘bottom of the barrel’, but Nintendo has been trying to fill up said barrel through the Switch era.
2. The kids who grew up with systems like the GameCube, DS, and Wii are adults now. They have nostalgia that needs paying attention to as well after all.
3. My approach to a Smash roster is like that of a time capsule. A collection of what that era of Nintendo had to offer. Ultimate bringing everything before itself back made for a good send off for those last 20 years, and better justifies a shake-up of the roster in a future game.
4. The ‘hierarchy’ has changed since Smash 64, and the 90’s. What series are integral to Nintendo has been shaken up a lot, with many series in Smash that didn’t even exist in the 90’s, and many that haven’t exactly been active today.

I don’t think the old should be fully discarded. But a shift in priority will likely be in order. I think something like ports of 64, Melee, and Brawl will help soften the blow of a new Smash game with a new roster and new stages.

 

[TheZizz]

figuring out if every fighter HAS a feasible echo (spoiler alert: they don't all have one)

Spoiler alert!

Spoiler

:
: funky kong
:
:
: birdo
: blue dude(?)
:
:
: Mr. L
:
: blood falcon
: Clefairy (bigger and slower)
:
: undead Bowser
: lolo & lala
: ryu hasabi(?), Shinobi, etc.
: young Zelda
: slippy
:
: ganon (pig form)
:
:
: lieutenant g&w
: sword or blade
:
: phazon infected ZSS(?)
: vampire wario,
: liquid snake
: guy with a big sword
:
: Dixie Kong
: knuckles
: demon possessed dedede
: alph
: great fox robot
:
: protoman
:
: Rosalina & big luma
: bald bull
: can't be the only fighting/ninja Pokemon(?)
: the sassy magic user
: ms pac-man
:
: the kid
:
: Nintendog
:
: Zack
:
:
:
: meta Ridley
:
: wart
: beefy Pokemon
: spiny piranha plant
:
:
: banjo & dragon kazooie
: some other king of fighters
:
: the bulbous nosed doof
:
: sexyroth
:
: tenpachi? (Old guy)
: some other femboy

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Spoiler alert!

Spoiler

:
: funky kong
:
:
: birdo
: blue dude(?)
:
:
: Mr. L
:
: blood falcon
: Clefairy (bigger and slower)
:
: undead Bowser
: lolo & lala
: ryu hasabi(?), Shinobi, etc.
: young Zelda
: slippy
:
: ganon (pig form)
:
:
: lieutenant g&w
: sword or blade
:
: phazon infected ZSS(?)
: vampire wario,
: liquid snake
: guy with a big sword
:
: Dixie Kong
: knuckles
: demon possessed dedede
: alph
: great fox robot
:
: protoman
:
: Rosalina & big luma
: bald bull
: can't be the only fighting/ninja Pokemon(?)
: the sassy magic user
: ms pac-man
:
: the kid
:
: Nintendog
:
: Zack
:
:
:
: meta Ridley
:
: wart
: beefy Pokemon
: spiny piranha plant
:
:
: banjo & dragon kazooie
: some other king of fighters
:
: the bulbous nosed doof
:
: sexyroth
:
: tenpachi? (Old guy)
: some other femboy

I'm kind of impressed that you wrote this, realized you didn't know any viable options or even the names of over 10 of your options and did not figure out this is exactly what Guy meant

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Spoiler alert!

Spoiler

:
: funky kong
:
:
: birdo
: blue dude(?)
:
:
: Mr. L
:
: blood falcon
: Clefairy (bigger and slower)
:
: undead Bowser
: lolo & lala
: ryu hasabi(?), Shinobi, etc.
: young Zelda
: slippy
:
: ganon (pig form)
:
:
: lieutenant g&w
: sword or blade
:
: phazon infected ZSS(?)
: vampire wario,
: liquid snake
: guy with a big sword
:
: Dixie Kong
: knuckles
: demon possessed dedede
: alph
: great fox robot
:
: protoman
:
: Rosalina & big luma
: bald bull
: can't be the only fighting/ninja Pokemon(?)
: the sassy magic user
: ms pac-man
:
: the kid
:
: Nintendog
:
: Zack
:
:
:
: meta Ridley
:
: wart
: beefy Pokemon
: spiny piranha plant
:
:
: banjo & dragon kazooie
: some other king of fighters
:
: the bulbous nosed doof
:
: sexyroth
:
: tenpachi? (Old guy)
: some other femboy

It's gonna take me a bit to recover from Rosalina & Big Luma. I can only assume you mean Lubba from Galaxy 2 but I cannot get the idea of a Rosalina echo just being the exact same character but with bigger Lumas out of my head.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I did begin on a non-ironic "everyone is echoed" list a while back, perhaps I should pick that back up. A lot of the more recent and intricate characters were causing headaches for me though. I remember that my Duck Hunt clone was Rover and Peedy from Windows.

Vampire Wario is a based echo pick TBH, even if I prefer Tiny Wario or Dr. (Vampire) Wario.

 

[fogbadge]

Spoiler alert!

Spoiler

:
: funky kong
:
:
: birdo
: blue dude(?)
:
:
: Mr. L
:
: blood falcon
: Clefairy (bigger and slower)
:
: undead Bowser
: lolo & lala
: ryu hasabi(?), Shinobi, etc.
: young Zelda
: slippy
:
: ganon (pig form)
:
:
: lieutenant g&w
: sword or blade
:
: phazon infected ZSS(?)
: vampire wario,
: liquid snake
: guy with a big sword
:
: Dixie Kong
: knuckles
: demon possessed dedede
: alph
: great fox robot
:
: protoman
:
: Rosalina & big luma
: bald bull
: can't be the only fighting/ninja Pokemon(?)
: the sassy magic user
: ms pac-man
:
: the kid
:
: Nintendog
:
: Zack
:
:
:
: meta Ridley
:
: wart
: beefy Pokemon
: spiny piranha plant
:
:
: banjo & dragon kazooie
: some other king of fighters
:
: the bulbous nosed doof
:
: sexyroth
:
: tenpachi? (Old guy)
: some other femboy

for Kirby I would suggest keeby and one off yellow player 2 character

 

[TheZizz]

I'm kind of impressed that you wrote this, realized you didn't know any viable options or even the names of over 10 of your options and did not figure out this is exactly what Guy meant

But you know exactly what my pointers are referencing, no need to spend an hour dotting my Ts. And in the case of fire emblem or Pokemon where the multitude of character designs heavily overlap. And Lucario being a pseudo clone of Mewtwo sets a pretty loose precedent.

Mind you even though I acknowledged the associated "development cost", this is more of a wish list than a discussion on optimal management of human resources. I just happen to like the "yin and yang" theme even though a lot of them are goofy shoe-ins, in the spirit of dr Mario whose exclusion from future titles would be sorely missed, at least by me . Anyway ultimate makes little distinction between clones and alternate costumes which is fine, why not

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm kind of impressed that you wrote this, realized you didn't know any viable options or even the names of over 10 of your options and did not figure out this is exactly what Guy meant

Not to mention it's ignoring how I said echoes have to be clones with little to no differences. And yes, there are more differences between the two Marios than Ryu and Ken. And there are definitely more between Mewtwo and Lucario, anyone clinging onto that "Lucario is a Mewtwo clone" nonsense might as well consider the two Samus clones.

 

[TheZizz]

Not to mention it's ignoring how I said echoes have to be clones with little to no differences.

Why? Well I didn't consent to that. And wouldn't that be more unnecessary characters than my proposal? Besides, Mario and Luigi have more mechanically similar kits than say, Ike who was the "spiritual replacement" for Roy in SSBB. As with Lucario being the de facto hyper energy destroyer to mix things up. It's just a fun "two-sided" concept, nothing need be so ironclad.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Why?

Your list acknowledges that Roy has his own echo instead of being reduced to one. That should be enough proof that only specific clones get to be called echoes.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Adjacent to the discussion but not really a response, I think that in clone speculation and theorycrafting, people really ignore that Smash 64 Jigglypuff is a thing, a complete undeniable clone with a distinct set of specials beyond stat differences. You could easily have say, Waddle Dee as a Kirby clone without using any copy abilities (at least the types that summon props)

Then again, I think Smash fandom is generally too fixated on specials other other moves, but that's a story for another day

 

[TheZizz]

Your list acknowledges that Roy has his own echo instead of being reduced to one. That should be enough proof that only specific clones get to be called echoes.

Smash ultimate itself acknowledges it, as per the "stacked fighters" option. Of course I didn't have to be so generous and simply group the lot together, for their extreme similarities, if it's gonna be held against me

 

[KingofPhantoms]

And Lucario being a pseudo clone of Mewtwo sets a pretty loose precedent.

How is Lucario a clone in any capacity?

 

[TheZizz]

How is Lucario a clone in any capacity?

He was the big mean hyper-powerful stand-in for Mewtwo in brawl, but I can see the confusion for people not around during this time.

Anyway fire emblem and Pokemon clone reps are a lock, there are so many to pick from that it's a moot point to say look, he can't think of anything from the hundred and hundreds lul. Give me a break!

 

[Guynamednelson]

He was the big mean hyper-powerful stand-in for Mewtwo in brawl, but I can see the confusion for people not around during this time

I was around, and I can still tell they only share one single move in common-ish. A move that isn't even unique to them, it's something Samus and Wii Fit Trainer have as well.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This thread sometimes makes me feel really old, even though everyone here is the same age as me or older (sometimes very very older) - do people really not remember that Ridley and Cloud used to be widely mocked picks before they got in, or that Lucario was seen as being Mewtwo's outright replacement? Those were the defining narratives at the time, regardless of if they're true or false, and it's kinda strange to me that people act like they were always some strange fringe perspectives

just all the more an argument to not make smash picks based on potential reaction.

 

[TheZizz]

I was around, and I can still tell they only share one single move in common-ish. A move that isn't even unique to them, it's something Samus and Wii Fit Trainer have as well.

You're really arguing that there are no clone reps to be found among the hundreds of Pokemon and fire emblem characters? Am I gonna have to search for the obvious self-evident, or are you gonna actually meet me half way on this? Give me a break

 

[Guynamednelson]

You're really arguing that there are no clone reps to be found among the hundreds of Pokemon and fire emblem characters? Am I gonna have to search for the obvious self-evident, or are you gonna actually meet me half way on this? Give me a break

"Lucario isn't a Mewtwo clone"=/="Pokemon can't have clones". How the hell did you assume I said something completely different?

 

[TheZizz]

"Lucario isn't a Mewtwo clone"=/="Pokemon can't have clones". How the hell did you assume I said something completely different?

So what's the point to calling me out for not citing something like robo-Mewtwo(?) and whatever that Lucario evolution is. Those are the absolute easiest to clone, and I figured smashboards would have the decency to fill in the blanks....

 

[Guynamednelson]

So what's the point to calling me out for not citing something like robo-Mewtwo(?) and whatever that Lucario evolution is. Those are the absolute easiest to clone, and I figured smashboards would have the decency to fill in the blanks....

We have the decency to know Mewtwo and Lucario only have one single move in common.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Lucario is not a Mewtwo clone, that is plain as day, we also know that Lucario was also not meant to replace Mewtwo (at least by the end of development) through datamines - but I also think it's not that unreasonable to believe Lucario was meant to some kind of 'successor' to Mewtwo in aesthetic/diegetic role at least, or wasn't built off of either experience or data relating to Mewtwo in Melee. I'd say those two characters have a connection, but it's not the strongest. The same one as Mii Swordfighter and Hero, Mario and Ness, or ZSS and Bayonetta functionally; and all the non-trainer starters diegetically. Less "out with the old, in with the new" and more "that (in this case, a mysterious cool bipedal special-Pokemon) was recieved well, let's make lightning strike twice"

Also MechaMew2 - putting aside the obscurity of the character and lost nature of the source material - would not be able to work as a clone because of the catterpillar treads. They should put MechaMew2 in Smash though, hell yeah. Unless you're talking about Mewtwo's armour, which isn't really a seperate character, but... that'd be kinda neat. I know a lot of people want Mewtwo to be heavier and an armoured echo would be a good way to get that. I do wonder if Mewtwo's tail-to-hand move ratio is lopsided enough to where Mew's stubby arms wouldn't be a problem, at least not any more than Pichu's stubbier limbs and neck are for them.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

He was the big mean hyper-powerful stand-in for Mewtwo in brawl, but I can see the confusion for people not around during this time.

I got Brawl way back in 2008 when I was a kid. I may not have been on this particular website until 2013, but I can assure you I was very much around the Smash scene during the Brawl days and formerly believed in the "Lucario was meant to be a replacement/successor to Mewtwo" rhetoric. I can't recall seeing or hearing anyone say that Lucario was a Mewtwo clone since about early 2014.

Being a "stand-in" for a character is not the same thing as being a Clone. Clones in Smash are fighters who are mechanically similar to other fighters, or in the case of Echo Fighters, near-identical with slight differences to other characters. And as Guy pointed out, Lucario and Mewtwo only share one slightly similar move with mechanics that still significantly differ. Lucario is no more of a Mewtwo clone than King Dedede is of Kirby.

Even if we go by your broader definition of what a Clone is, Lucario also arguably doesn't even work as a "stand-in" for Mewtwo in Brawl as. outside of his Smash debut also currently being the one game in the series that only Lucario was playable in while Mewtwo wasn't, Mewtwo was still among the characters who was planned for the game's roster, and was cut solely due to time constraints. Lucario was never meant to outright replace Mewtwo nor serve as a stand-in for him.

 

[TheZizz]

We have the decency to know Mewtwo and Lucario only have one single move in common.

The actual point is that, I would not place naming clones for every character in my top 10 quadrillion most impossible feats lol. As I have demonstrated also with both Mewtwo and Lucario, despite that you absolutely had foreknowledge that they had clones same as anyone.

Besides which, your minor point is highly debatable as to what constitutes a "clone". Two mean Pokemon with huge blue auras and thematically very similar. But anyways they both have obvious clones, obviously. Don't be disingenuous

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Besides which, your minor point is highly debatable as to what constitutes a "clone". Two mean Pokemon with huge blue auras and thematically very similar.

Don't be disingenuous

Oh the irony.

 

[Schnee117]

The actual point is that, I would not place naming clones for every character in my top 10 quadrillion most impossible feats lol. As I have demonstrated also with both Mewtwo and Lucario, despite that you absolutely had foreknowledge that they had clones same as anyone.

Besides which, your minor point is highly debatable as to what constitutes a "clone". Two mean Pokemon with huge blue auras and thematically very similar. But anyways they both have obvious clones, obviously. Don't be disingenuous

If the clones are "obvious" then you should be able to name them.

 

[TheZizz]

Oh the irony.

No, that was honestly my reception to Lucario. Believe it or don't.

If the clones are "obvious" then you should be able to name them.

robo-Mewtwo and the ss4 Lucario, next

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Going to add to this Mewtwo/Lucario thing: Lucario was probably strongly inspired by Mewtwo in the source material. Pokemon has always loved repeating past successes with creature design as far back as gen 2, (and Mewtwo itself is an obviously derivative design of multiple characters, one of which was from a game much of the RBY dev team worked on and is aguably Mewtwo's most obvious clone) - this is only super relevant to Smash if you choose to believe that King Kong and Mas Oyama are in, but it's not a stretch to say they have blatant similarities and it's not exactly irrational for someone to cling to that without knowing the datamines.

Anyway, to me the fun of clones is the stretching you can do. Figuring out how to make a round piece fit a square hole, or finding other round objects that aren't "pieces" but fit just right.

Something that needs to be said, going to play... I guess God's advocate? Since I've been playing DA for Zizz who I think is wrong for the most part: people in Smash fandom do need to let go of their childhood reactions to certain additions. The amount of people here who still hold contempt towards the Ice Climbers, Puff, Sheik, e.t.c. specifically because they got in before a character who ended up in anyway is insane. I've let go of Corrin, and even my disdain for Banjo was not something I felt at the time. Be willing to open your perspective beyond what it was when you were a hormonal teen, if you dislike a character, say why you feel that way in the now, not with some kind of long-dead context.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

And Lucario being a pseudo clone of Mewtwo sets a pretty loose precedent.

You can't use Lucario the same way as you would with Mewtwo, as their movesets are completely different. Additionally, Lucario's aura mechanics are unique to it alone.

 

[Schnee117]

robo-Mewtwo and the ss4 Lucario, next

So just a costume that doesn't change anything and a transformation that is already used

You had the easiest lay-up for Mewtwo but I guess that'd require you to not be so hilariously out of touch.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

i think "shadow mewtwo vs armoured mewtwo echo" might be the dumbest thing i've seen people get hostile over on this thread.

Anyway, you can clone every character, but it depends on your standards for what makes a good vs. bad clone and what kind of additions you are willing to allow. You need to get into both, Falcondorf and Dr. Mario territories - sometimes at the same time - and look to new-repped series to make a viable full clone list, it is impossible to avoid strange ideas because the idea of cloning everyone is strange, and typically only done with the intention of experimentation. It also goes a long way if you choose to take - as mentioned - a Smash 64 Jigglypuff approach.

 

[TheZizz]

So just a costume that doesn't change anything and a transformation that is already used

You had the easiest lay-up for Mewtwo but I guess that'd require you to not be so hilariously out of touch.
View attachment 400239

No kidding it's obvious, like I said? Why act like it wasn't? And no I'm not a pokemaniac, so what?

You can't use Lucario the same way as you would with Mewtwo, as their movesets are completely different. Additionally, Lucario's aura mechanics are unique to it alone.

Variable play styles applies to most every clone that isn't a complete carbon copy

It also goes a long way if you choose to take - as mentioned - a Smash 64 Jigglypuff approach.

Well I tried to avoid spanning series between clones, and yeah it would have been much easier to just pair falcon with ganondorf and so on. K Rool with Wart technically share the same universe, that's as far as I stretch it

 

[Schnee117]

No kidding it's obvious, like I said? Why act like it wasn't? And no I'm not a pokemaniac, so what?

Considering you missed it for "Uhhh... Mewtwo in armour" it wasn't so obvious apparently.
If you're gonna act like every character could easily have an echo it helps to not be so grossly ignorant. Then again, making such an insanely stupid suggestion requires one be as ignorant as you anyway

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Armoured Mewtwo is not a ridiculous suggestion? It's barely far off from Dr. Mario conceptually, (the only real difference is the Doc has his own game, but even then armoured Mewtwo is strongly linked in imagery to the first movie) has the exact same body shape, and actually does fill a neat functional niche people have wanted since Melee (Mewtwo but heavy). You can do a lot worse, feels more to me like making I dunno, Fire Mario an echo. Sure, maybe excessive, but the logic is obvious and the potential changes could be interesting.

 

[TheZizz]

Considering you missed it for "Uhhh... Mewtwo in armour" it wasn't so obvious apparently.
If you're gonna act like every character could easily have an echo it helps to not be so grossly ignorant. Then again, making such an insanely stupid suggestion requires one be as ignorant as you anyway

Isn't it more like cyborg Mewtwo, repaired from near death? He's got all tubes in him and such. Anyway what crawled up your craw, holy crap

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Isn't it more like cyborg Mewtwo, repaired from near death? He's got all tubes in him and such.

Bulbapedia is your friend.

Mewtwo (M01)

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

"Mewtwo's power was focused as well as restrained by a robotic suit of armor as it performed tasks, such as battling for Giovanni in the Viridian Gym and helping Team Rocket capture Pokémon" - so yes, there is a tangible difference in ability there that justifies a clone status. In fact, I'd argue the original context adds a stronger argument for armoured Mewtwo as a clone, make a non-defensive but powerful glass cannon into a weak but defensive tank.

 

[TheZizz]

Bulbapedia is your friend.

I quoted you twice on accident, peep my 3rd to last post

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Isn't it more like cyborg Mewtwo, repaired from near death? He's got all tubes in him and such.

No, it's armor used as a power restraint to help Mewtwo focus his power since he wasn't in control right out of the tube.

 

[TheZizz]

No, it's armor used as a power restraint to help Mewtwo focus his power since he wasn't in control right out of the tube.

Nooo spoilers! Nah but that sounds dope

Anyway I'm surprised no one came at my jugular for naming knuckles instead of shadow for a clone. Don't I know anything?? Well I guess my funny duddy ideas are that offensive, fair enough.