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He also stated that he'll do the rigging and animating for the model as well since he wanted to be more involved.
Me and Bagan have also been talking about a possible move-set for Kraid, I have a write up, but the most problematic thing (for me that is) is coming up with a suitable Up-B. Does anyone have any input on the matter? I can post my write up here if anyone is interested, I need more opinions on the move-set that I've come up with as Bagan has already stated his opinion on my move-set.
He also stated that he'll do the rigging and animating for the model as well since he wanted to be more involved.
Me and Bagan have also been talking about a possible move-set for Kraid, I have a write up, but the most problematic thing (for me that is) is coming up with a suitable Up-B. Does anyone have any input on the matter? I can post my write up here if anyone is interested, I need more opinions on the move-set that I've come up with as Bagan has already stated his opinion on my move-set.
That is an amazing model! The only thing that comes to mind for a possible up-B for Kraid would be him trying to imitate Yoshi's flutter jump by waggling his feet and tail around to get some extra height. Other than that, maybe have him throw one of his projectile toenail clippings (at least, that's what I always thought those were anyway) downwards or briefly give him a modified space pirate jetpack that the flying pirates used from Prime 1 for the Up-B.
That is an amazing model! The only thing that comes to mind for a possible up-B for Kraid would be him trying to imitate Yoshi's flutter jump by waggling his feet and tail around to get some extra height. Other than that, maybe have him throw one of his projectile toenail clippings (at least, that's what I always thought those were anyway) downwards or briefly give him a modified space pirate jetpack that the flying pirates used from Prime 1 for the Up-B.
He also stated that he'll do the rigging and animating for the model as well since he wanted to be more involved.
Me and Bagan have also been talking about a possible move-set for Kraid, I have a write up, but the most problematic thing (for me that is) is coming up with a suitable Up-B. Does anyone have any input on the matter? I can post my write up here if anyone is interested, I need more opinions on the move-set that I've come up with as Bagan has already stated his opinion on my move-set.
The Neutral B will allow him to have at most 2 spikes on the screen, they're slow moving projectiles but have similar knock back to DeDeDe's Gordo's, just not as powerful, they can be ridden on and also stick to walls allowing you to stand on them to reach higher ground like in the Metroid Boss Battle. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Side B will function similarly Ivysaur, but with more control, meaning you can actually angle them in different directions, kinda of like Mega-man's Metal Blade but not with that much control. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Down B will function similarly to Ivysaur's, except the acid moves in an arc like in Super Metroid and two are shot, one covers higher, meaning it will travel the farthest, while one will cover lower meaning it goes the shortest distance. When it lands on an opponent it will pop them up a bit much like Ivysaur's Seed Bomb and it also has a chance to poison. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Up B will function like Snake's but without the electricity and with armor on start-up, Kraid will pull out a Space Pirate Cargo Drone and hold on to it with both of his claws while propelling upwards, It will have better control and last slightly longer than Snake's. It's purely recovery, nothing more, nothing less. Interesting? Does it need improvement? Does it sound too far-fetched?
In terms of Normals this is what I've written up:
Quick Stats (compared with PM stats):
Weight - 120 (Heaviest character)
Walking Speed - 0.61 (slowest walker)
Running Speed - 1.0
Falling Speed - 1.9
Fast-Falling Speed - 2.8
Idle: Kraid's Zero Mission Stance.
Neutral Jab: Kraid performs one quick Jab (much like Ganondorf), but performs his signature left claw swipe similar to the Zero Mission Battle.
Side-Tilt: Kraid thrusts his stomach forward attempting the impale foes with the spikes in his stomach.
Up-Tilt: Overhead swipe.
Down-Tilt: Sweeps his opponents feet with his tail, chance of tripping the opponent.
Side-Smash: Performs a drop kick putting all the force from his body into the kick (similar to Bowser's F-Smash from Smash 4 has armor) OR Kraid performs a double slash in the form of an X (Think X-scissor, also has armor). The reason there is an "OR" there is because I'm trying to determine which move works better, make sure you tell me this as well.
Down-Smash: Jumps and stomps the ground with both feet (similar to Charizard's animation) OR Kraid stomps one side of the ground with one leg, then proceeds to stomp the other side with the other leg. The reason there is an "OR" there is because I'm trying to determine which move works better, make sure you tell me this as well.
Up-Smash: Shoots a small sphere of acid upwards, then plummets downwards soon after, longer the charge is the higher it rises (similar to Snake's Up-Smash, although it can poison just as the Down-B can).
N-air: Spreads his arms and legs wide making his body a hit-box (similar to King Dedede).
F-air: A strong frontal claw swipe that covers his frontal area (similar to PM Bowser).
B-air: A reverse drop-kick (similar to Bowser in Smash 4).
U-air: A quick overhead slash (similar to the Ridley mod, although with lower knock back for follow ups).
D-air: A downward double kick (similar to PM Charizard, although not a meteor and is a true spike [or was it always spike in the first place?]).
Grab: Grab animation similar to Bowser's but a bit faster due to his arms being smaller.
Grab Pummel: Mauls his opponent, and just like Ridley heals from every piece of flesh consumed.
Forward throw: The Ridley mod's Forward throw, a quick slash sending the opponent upwards but low (meaning he can easily follow up for combos).
Back throw: Turns around and just tosses the opponent away (similar to PM Bowser's back throw, and it is a kill throw).
Up throw: Puts opponent above his head and headbutts them with the spikes on his head (similar to Pikachu's throw but less adorable looking, is this even achievable?).
Down throw: Puts opponent on the ground and drives them into the ground using his body weight impaling them with the spikes on his stomach (similar to Bowser's down throw).
Thoughts? Give it a rating on a scale from 1-10. And give me some constructive criticism so I can improve, and most importantly be honest.
The Neutral B will allow him to have at most 2 spikes on the screen, they're slow moving projectiles but have similar knock back to DeDeDe's Gordo's, just not as powerful, they can be ridden on and also stick to walls allowing you to stand on them to reach higher ground like in the Metroid Boss Battle. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Side B will function similarly Ivysaur, but with more control, meaning you can actually angle them in different directions, kinda of like Mega-man's Metal Blade but not with that much control. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Down B will function similarly to Ivysaur's, except the acid moves in an arc like in Super Metroid and two are shot, one covers higher, meaning it will travel the farthest, while one will cover lower meaning it goes the shortest distance. When it lands on an opponent it will pop them up a bit much like Ivysaur's Seed Bomb and it also has a chance to poison. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Up B will function like Snake's but without the electricity and with armor on start-up, Kraid will pull out a Space Pirate Cargo Drone and hold on to it with both of his claws while propelling upwards, It will have better control and last slightly longer than Snake's. It's purely recovery, nothing more, nothing less. Interesting? Does it need improvement? Does it sound too far-fetched?
In terms of Normals this is what I've written up:
Quick Stats (compared with PM stats):
Weight - 120 (Heaviest character)
Walking Speed - 0.61 (slowest walker)
Running Speed - 1.0
Falling Speed - 1.9
Fast-Falling Speed - 2.8
Idle: Kraid's Zero Mission Stance.
Neutral Jab: Kraid performs one quick Jab (much like Ganondorf), but performs his signature left claw swipe similar to the Zero Mission Battle.
Side-Tilt: Kraid thrusts his stomach forward attempting the impale foes with the spikes in his stomach.
Up-Tilt: Overhead swipe.
Down-Tilt: Sweeps his opponents feet with his tail, chance of tripping the opponent.
Side-Smash: Performs a drop kick putting all the force from his body into the kick (similar to Bowser's F-Smash from Smash 4 has armor) OR Kraid performs a double slash in the form of an X (Think X-scissor, also has armor). The reason there is an "OR" there is because I'm trying to determine which move works better, make sure you tell me this as well.
Down-Smash: Jumps and stomps the ground with both feet (similar to Charizard's animation) OR Kraid stomps one side of the ground with one leg, then proceeds to stomp the other side with the other leg. The reason there is an "OR" there is because I'm trying to determine which move works better, make sure you tell me this as well.
Up-Smash: Shoots a small sphere of acid upwards, then plummets downwards soon after, longer the charge is the higher it rises (similar to Snake's Up-Smash, although it can poison just as the Down-B can).
N-air: Spreads his arms and legs wide making his body a hit-box (similar to King Dedede).
F-air: A strong frontal claw swipe that covers his frontal area (similar to PM Bowser).
B-air: A reverse drop-kick (similar to Bowser in Smash 4).
U-air: A quick overhead slash (similar to the Ridley mod, although with lower knock back for follow ups).
D-air: A downward double kick (similar to PM Charizard, although not a meteor and is a true spike [or was it always spike in the first place?]).
Grab: Grab animation similar to Bowser's but a bit faster due to his arms being smaller.
Grab Pummel: Mauls his opponent, and just like Ridley heals from every piece of flesh consumed.
Forward throw: The Ridley mod's Forward throw, a quick slash sending the opponent upwards but low (meaning he can easily follow up for combos).
Back throw: Turns around and just tosses the opponent away (similar to PM Bowser's back throw, and it is a kill throw).
Up throw: Puts opponent above his head and headbutts them with the spikes on his head (similar to Pikachu's throw but less adorable looking, is this even achievable?).
Down throw: Puts opponent on the ground and drives them into the ground using his body weight impaling them with the spikes on his stomach (similar to Bowser's down throw).
Thoughts? Give it a rating on a scale from 1-10. And give me some constructive criticism so I can improve, and most importantly be honest.
Solid 8/10
Biggest complaint is that a few too many moves are similar too Bowser. I like the X scissor side smash more than the drop kick. I'm undecided on the down smash.
This barely looks like Kraid. And that would be lazy too. I don't use models that have Brawl characters' rig outside of maybe Brawl Ridley. Thats why i didn't used that s****y Ridley and Meta Ridley over Charizard models, acceptable K.Rool over Bowser model (might change my mind on it though, but his cape isn't rigged and nether is his crown, so...) and other models like this. Too bad this means i can't reuse animations.
To be honest, I don't really see Kraid having the body to be a playable character, To me it just seems off.
However, You guys made me think twice about Ridley to the point where he is one of my new mains so I'm pretty sure when Kraid comes along you'll make me think twice about that too. Maybe not as much as Ridley but a decent amount.
Just one more thing about the Crusade announcer. I tried looking for it on the thread but i couldn't seem to find it (even tried to make one myself only for to be greeted with a loud static noise and a infinite loading screen afterwards) could someone link it again please?
To be honest, I don't really see Kraid having the body to be a playable character, To me it just seems off.
However, You guys made me think twice about Ridley to the point where he is one of my new mains so I'm pretty sure when Kraid comes along you'll make me think twice about that too. Maybe not as much as Ridley but a decent amount.
Just one more thing about the Crusade announcer. I tried looking for it on the thread but i couldn't seem to find it (even tried to make one myself only for to be greeted with a loud static noise and a infinite loading screen afterwards) could someone link it again please?
Well, we're not limited by the model because Frayark (name of the guy making the model on Smashboards) is making it for the mod and not some official developers for a Metroid game. He can change proportions if it will be needed for Kraid to work.
Here are just character calls and here is everything else.
Well, we're not limited by the model because Frayark (name of the guy making the model on Smashboards) is making it for the mod and not some official developers for a Metroid game. He can change proportions if it will be needed for Kraid to work.
Here are just character calls and here is everything else.
Just a question about sound files, Why would adding the Ridley.wav from the SSBC sound folder for the 223.sawnd cause problems for the game. When the Waluigi mod comes out (and hopefully there will be a port over another charater) I want to make sure the game doesn't stuff up.
Another question is that I tried to make a DIO voice mod for Mewtwo using DIO's voice from Heritage of the Future arcade game (If i get my hands on All-star battle sounds i'll use those) but most of the sounds had static in them when I inserted them in. Is it because it needs to be changed to a specific frequency?
Just a question about sound files, Why would adding the Ridley.wav from the SSBC sound folder for the 223.sawnd cause problems for the game. When the Waluigi mod comes out (and hopefully there will be a port over another charater) I want to make sure the game doesn't stuff up.
Another question is that I tried to make a DIO voice mod for Mewtwo using DIO's voice from Heritage of the Future arcade game (If i get my hands on All-star battle sounds i'll use those) but most of the sounds had static in them when I inserted them in. Is it because it needs to be changed to a specific frequency?
You know, that was one of my first thoughts when writing up this move-set but I opted against it because it sounded too silly, so I went with using Pirate Technology. But now thinking about it and Bagan bringing up the Gigafraugs, it doesn't seem too far-fetched anymore. Which move do you think would make more sense the Cargo Drone or the Jump? It would also be nice if other people threw in their own 2 cents as well.
Well, the difference between Ridley and Kraid is, unlike Ridley Kraid is limited to a slow/heavy playstyle by default, whereas Ridley have multiple ways to be made playable. And the slow playstyle is something that is, by design, not really fit for project M.
I'm not saying it's impossible to make a playable, balanced Kraid, but it's definitely harder to do, compared to Ridley.
So before thinking of what moves he should have, I think we should think about what playstyle should be avaible to him with his kit.
I think some sort of mix between DDD and bowser could fit well, like some sort of grounded DDD, compensating the lack of aerial game through armor, using projectles and long lasting/large hitboxes to wall opponents out, creating some "war of attrition" playstyle; a turtling character with heavy damage on his punishes basically. Problem is, turtling/camping/Zoning is not a playstyle that is fun to play as/against for most people (look at 3.0 Zelda), so i'm reluctant to give him such a playstyle.
Regarding his proportion however, that gold statue model, while straight up Dope AF, it feels to me like it's just a tiny bit off, at least when you look at him in the context of a fighting game.It's like, he looks a bit stiff, if you know what i mean. I think something a bit closer to his melee model would be perfect. Actually, just slightly longer legs would do the trick.
Something like that: http://dkvine.com/games/gallery/cache/artwork/ssbm/kraid_01_595.png
Well, the difference between Ridley and Kraid is, unlike Ridley Kraid is limited to a slow/heavy playstyle by default, whereas Ridley have multiple ways to be made playable. And the slow playstyle is something that is, by design, not really fit for project M.
I'm not saying it's impossible to make a playable, balanced Kraid, but it's definitely harder than to do, compared to Ridley.
So before thinking of what moves he should have, I think we should think about what playstyle should be avaible to him with his kit.
I think some sort of mix between DDD and bowser could fit well, like some sort of grounded DDD, compensating the lack of aerial game through armor, using projectles and long lasting/large hitboxes to wall opponents out, creating some "war of attrition" playstyle; a turtling character with heavy damage on his punishes basically. Problem is, turtling/camping/Zoning is not a playstyle that is fun to play as/against for most people (look at 3.0 Zelda), so i'm reluctant to give him such a playstyle.
Regarding his proportion however, that gold statue model, while straight up Dope AF, it feels to me like it's just a tiny bit off, at least when you look at him in the context of a fighting game.It's like, he looks a bit stiff, if you know what i mean. I think something a bit closer to his melee model would be perfect. Actually, just slightly longer legs would do the trick.
Something like that: http://dkvine.com/games/gallery/cache/artwork/ssbm/kraid_01_595.png
I think this is the right way to go, both moveset- and model-wise. A reasonable amount of turtling is an acceptable basis for a moveset IMO, since it's not something that many characters simply can't deal with (camping/zoning). I would just make sure he's not too succeptible to zoning himself and that his armor isn't game-breaking.
Well, the difference between Ridley and Kraid is, unlike Ridley Kraid is limited to a slow/heavy playstyle by default, whereas Ridley have multiple ways to be made playable. And the slow playstyle is something that is, by design, not really fit for project M.
I'm not saying it's impossible to make a playable, balanced Kraid, but it's definitely harder than to do, compared to Ridley.
So before thinking of what moves he should have, I think we should think about what playstyle should be avaible to him with his kit.
I think some sort of mix between DDD and bowser could fit well, like some sort of grounded DDD, compensating the lack of aerial game through armor, using projectles and long lasting/large hitboxes to wall opponents out, creating some "war of attrition" playstyle; a turtling character with heavy damage on his punishes basically. Problem is, turtling/camping/Zoning is not a playstyle that is fun to play as/against for most people (look at 3.0 Zelda), so i'm reluctant to give him such a playstyle.
Regarding his proportion however, that gold statue model, while straight up Dope AF, it feels to me like it's just a tiny bit off, at least when you look at him in the context of a fighting game.It's like, he looks a bit stiff, if you know what i mean. I think something a bit closer to his melee model would be perfect. Actually, just slightly longer legs would do the trick.
Something like that: http://dkvine.com/games/gallery/cache/artwork/ssbm/kraid_01_595.png
Well, in terms of modeling issues, we shouldn't have any because the guy who made the Golden statue Kraid (Frayark) has requested to be more involved and stated he'd create a custom model, rig it and animate it for us, meaning we should get a model that will fit the bill as a playable fighter with proper proportions, after all Frayark is a professional, and size shouldn't be an issue due to Kraid spawn existing and he should be somewhat smaller than Kraid spawn.
In terms of move-set I've been brainstorming and trying to make it easier for Bagan (and everyone else) to see Kraid as a possible playable character. My proposed idea was for him to be a projectile based heavy, much like Samus and Snake. I've merged moves from Bowser, DeDeDe, and Charizard, while giving him his own flair to be as unique as possible. I'm also trying to opt away from the campy play-style as well.
Yes, creating moveset for Kraid and picking proper playstyle is the main problem for now. If we would be focusing on Brawl rather than Project M, we would have far less problems. Brawl encourages campy and defensive playstyle far more than Project M, so, we could get away with Kraid being able to just spam his belly spikes or things like this. But this is PM, so, its gonna be a very painful ride. We need to somehow have Kraid being fun to use and not f***ing annoying to fight against like Pac-Man in 4. We also need to have him being more-or-less accurate to the source so he isn't using some s**t like martial arts or freakin' "laser" beams from eyes. The main problem is that Kraid lacks source material, unlike guys like Ridley and Dark Samus, due to being present in only 3 games. Another problem is that big, heavy and slow characters suck by default in Smash games no matter what you do about it...unless you give him one-hit kill attacks or make him flinch only at like 200%. And this is PM, so, things get even worse.
Idea for Kraid: Have his size similar to his appearance in one of the GBA Metroid games and have his final smash give him his "proper" size ala Giga-Bowser. Having a smaller Kraid would allow us to have more leniency in making a moveset for Kraid.
Idea for Kraid: Have his size similar to his appearance in one of the GBA Metroid games and have his final smash give him his "proper" size ala Giga-Bowser. Having a smaller Kraid would allow us to have more leniency in making a moveset for Kraid.
He shouldn't be any bigger than Bowser or DDD anyway. Seeing how mobile both of them are, there is no reason for Kraid to be unplayably slow, but he obviously can't be as mobile as other heavyweight, and as Bagan said, PM isn't an environnement favoring slow characters. It's going to be tough to come up with something worth playing.
That looks like a decent size for Kraid to be. It does look a little bit awkward, but it's probably the best that can be done to make such a gargantuan character be a reasonable size for a playable character.
The Neutral B will allow him to have at most 2 spikes on the screen, they're slow moving projectiles but have similar knock back to DeDeDe's Gordo's, just not as powerful, they can be ridden on and also stick to walls allowing you to stand on them to reach higher ground like in the Metroid Boss Battle. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Side B will function similarly Ivysaur, but with more control, meaning you can actually angle them in different directions, kinda of like Mega-man's Metal Blade but not with that much control. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Down B will function similarly to Ivysaur's, except the acid moves in an arc like in Super Metroid and two are shot, one covers higher, meaning it will travel the farthest, while one will cover lower meaning it goes the shortest distance. When it lands on an opponent it will pop them up a bit much like Ivysaur's Seed Bomb and it also has a chance to poison. Interesting? Seem broken? Does it need improvement? Does anyone know if this would be possible to code?
Up B will function like Snake's but without the electricity and with armor on start-up, Kraid will pull out a Space Pirate Cargo Drone and hold on to it with both of his claws while propelling upwards, It will have better control and last slightly longer than Snake's. It's purely recovery, nothing more, nothing less. Interesting? Does it need improvement? Does it sound too far-fetched?
In terms of Normals this is what I've written up:
Quick Stats (compared with PM stats):
Weight - 120 (Heaviest character)
Walking Speed - 0.61 (slowest walker)
Running Speed - 1.0
Falling Speed - 1.9
Fast-Falling Speed - 2.8
Idle: Kraid's Zero Mission Stance.
Neutral Jab: Kraid performs one quick Jab (much like Ganondorf), but performs his signature left claw swipe similar to the Zero Mission Battle.
Side-Tilt: Kraid thrusts his stomach forward attempting the impale foes with the spikes in his stomach.
Up-Tilt: Overhead swipe.
Down-Tilt: Sweeps his opponents feet with his tail, chance of tripping the opponent.
Side-Smash: Performs a drop kick putting all the force from his body into the kick (similar to Bowser's F-Smash from Smash 4 has armor) OR Kraid performs a double slash in the form of an X (Think X-scissor, also has armor). The reason there is an "OR" there is because I'm trying to determine which move works better, make sure you tell me this as well.
Down-Smash: Jumps and stomps the ground with both feet (similar to Charizard's animation) OR Kraid stomps one side of the ground with one leg, then proceeds to stomp the other side with the other leg. The reason there is an "OR" there is because I'm trying to determine which move works better, make sure you tell me this as well.
Up-Smash: Shoots a small sphere of acid upwards, then plummets downwards soon after, longer the charge is the higher it rises (similar to Snake's Up-Smash, although it can poison just as the Down-B can).
N-air: Spreads his arms and legs wide making his body a hit-box (similar to King Dedede).
F-air: A strong frontal claw swipe that covers his frontal area (similar to PM Bowser).
B-air: A reverse drop-kick (similar to Bowser in Smash 4).
U-air: A quick overhead slash (similar to the Ridley mod, although with lower knock back for follow ups).
D-air: A downward double kick (similar to PM Charizard, although not a meteor and is a true spike [or was it always spike in the first place?]).
Grab: Grab animation similar to Bowser's but a bit faster due to his arms being smaller.
Grab Pummel: Mauls his opponent, and just like Ridley heals from every piece of flesh consumed.
Forward throw: The Ridley mod's Forward throw, a quick slash sending the opponent upwards but low (meaning he can easily follow up for combos).
Back throw: Turns around and just tosses the opponent away (similar to PM Bowser's back throw, and it is a kill throw).
Up throw: Puts opponent above his head and headbutts them with the spikes on his head (similar to Pikachu's throw but less adorable looking, is this even achievable?).
Down throw: Puts opponent on the ground and drives them into the ground using his body weight impaling them with the spikes on his stomach (similar to Bowser's down throw).
Thoughts? Give it a rating on a scale from 1-10. And give me some constructive criticism so I can improve, and most importantly be honest.
Yeah, there are some good ideas here. I don't know if your normals would work with a turtling/bait-and-punish style, but aesthetically i like most of those. Now , i'm not sure about the special moves (belly spikes and talon boomerangs are staples obviously, but it's more about their function.
So, i spent all yesterday thinking about what kind of moves Kraid's moveset need to revolve around, and i got this after watching the NES Metroid Kraid fight, reading Jayjay55's moveset idea and doing some research on heavyweights/Zoning in fighting games:
As upB or downB, the Talon boomerang: Kraid perform an uppercut-like claw slash above him, sending a multihitting projectile in an arc, rising as high as the highest battlefield platform, then coming back down to ground level a quarter FD away from Kraid (it doesn't go through platforms on the way down). It has enough startup for it to not be an on-reaction anti-air, but it's fast enough that you don't get punished for throwing one out unless you're already under pressure (about as safe as a flaco laser). The point of that move is to get Kraid stage control: Once one is out, your opponent cannot safely attack you from the air, and if they wait for it to fall back down, you'll be able to throw another one out, since the first one will stop direct approaches (being at ground level), your opponent's best options become throwing out projectiles if they have some, or approaching themselves; both are at your advantage thanks to Kraid's neutralB. The aerial version works similarly, but it's like yoshi's upB when it comes to recovery: you can snap to the ledge as soon as the projectile is out, and it stalls Kraid's fall.
As neutralB, take a guess... Belly spikes: Now this is where it gets weird and... gimmicky. Basically, Kraid has two states: charged (spikes visible on his belly) and uncharged (spikes hidden), with his model changing in-game to fit said state. The "gimmick" is, as long as Kraid is in a charged state, his spikes act the same way link's shield does, passively clanking projectiles (standing, walking running and jumping gets this effect), and moves with relevant animations get buffed: for example Ftilt (let's say it's a belly slam type attack) gets a longer range and some disjoint thanks to the spikes. While charged, NeutralB is a projectile attack, with powerful knockback and relatively long range (3/4 of FD) and speed (link's boomerang), affecting a narrow cone in front of Kraid (3 projectiles, the aerial version is aimed slightly downward), with a startup on par with samus' charge shot. Once NeutralB is used, Kraid lose the all the above, and becomes uncharged: You get charged again after a while (10 sec ingame, maybe) or by using NeutralB again (which leave you less vulnerable than Snake's sideB reload, so something like 40-50 frames). This move provide Kraid with a way to play around projectiles, which is the bane of slow characters, as you all know, and a way to punish at long range by sacrificing that advantage: if you hit, you can reload, but if you miss or get blocked/dodged, you end up with an opponent coming for you while you're vulnerable to projectiles and are missing your (already negligible) disjoints.
The for SideB, maybe some sort of shoulder bash or any thing that moves Kraid horizontally, and for UpB/downB, well i don't know yet. But those two moves would be the keystone of Kraid's gameplay, in the same way Ike's QD and any spacie's Shine are central to the kit they are in.
(I apologize for any typo, i wrote that in a hurry)
Yeah, there are some good ideas here. I don't know if your normals would work with a turtling/bait-and-punish style, but aesthetically i like most of those. Now , i'm not sure about the special moves (belly spikes and talon boomerangs are staples obviously, but it's more about their function.
So, i spent all yesterday thinking about what kind of moves Kraid's moveset need to revolve around, and i got this after watching the NES Metroid Kraid fight, reading Jayjay55's moveset idea and doing some research on heavyweights/Zoning in fighting games:
As upB or downB, the Talon boomerang: Kraid perform an uppercut-like claw slash above him, sending a multihitting projectile in an arc, rising as high as the highest battlefield platform, then coming back down to ground level a quarter FD away from Kraid (it doesn't go through platforms on the way down). It has enough startup for it to not be an on-reaction anti-air, but it's fast enough that you don't get punished for throwing one out unless you're already under pressure (about as safe as a flaco laser). The point of that move is to get Kraid stage control: Once one is out, your opponent cannot safely attack you from the air, and if they wait for it to fall back down, you'll be able to throw another one out, since the first one will stop direct approaches (being at ground level), your opponent's best options become throwing out projectiles if they have some, or approaching themselves; both are at your advantage thanks to Kraid's neutralB. The aerial version works similarly, but it's like yoshi's upB when it comes to recovery: you can snap to the ledge during the as soon as the projectile is out, and it stalls Kraid's fall.
As neutralB, take a guess... Belly spikes: Now this is where it gets weird and... gimmicky. Basically, Kraid has two states: charged (spikes visible on his belly) and uncharged (spikes hidden), with his model changing in-game to fit said state. The "gimmick" is, as long as Kraid is in a charged state, his spikes act the same way link's shield does, passively clanking projectiles (standing, walking running and jumping gets this effect), and moves with relevant animations get buffed: for example Ftilt (let's say it's a belly slam type attack) gets a longer range and some disjoint thanks to the spikes. While charged, NeutralB is a projectile attack, with powerful knockback and relatively long range (3/4 of FD) and speed (link's boomerang), affecting a narrow cone in front of Kraid (3 projectiles, the aerial version is aimed slightly downward), with a startup on par with samus' charge shot. Once NeutralB is used, Kraid lose the all the above, and becomes uncharged: You get charged again after a while (10 sec ingame, maybe) or by using NeutralB again (which leave you less vulnerable than Snake's sideB reload, so something like 40-50 frames). This move provide Kraid with a way to play around projectiles, which is the bane of slow characters, as you all know, and a way to punish at long range by sacrificing that advantage: if you hit, you can reload, but if you miss or get blocked/dodged, you end up with an opponent coming for you while you're vulnerable to projectiles and are missing your (already negligible) disjoints.
The for SideB, maybe some sort of shoulder bash or any thing that moves Kraid horizontally, and for UpB/downB, well i don't know yet. But those two moves would be the keystone of Kraid's gameplay, in the same way Ike's QD and any spacie's Shine are central to the kit they are in.
(I apologize for any typo, i wrote that in a hurry)
For the Up-B I like the utilization, although the move doesn't seem very fitting (Kraid performing an uppercut seems far-fetched), if anything the Acid shot would be the most logical considering the path the acid takes in my move-set is exactly the same as the one from the game and the path that you described, the difference is that two acid spheres would be shot, The only reason I mapped it to down B because I was unsure if that would be fitting as an up B. But I like the idea.
As for the side B, that's something really out there. I'm not sure if we can give Kraid a shoulder bash, It would make sense to keep the Side B mapped as the Claws. I know it would be key to the play-style but we can't just give him moves (Then again, Ganondorf exists and was just given moves, but in all fairness that was due to time constraints). That's why when I gave him the Cargo Drone Up-B I cringed, I just gave him a move out of the blue that seemed too far-fetched but that was only due to lack of source material. Now that you've given a better idea, I really feel that the down B should be a Gigafraug leap (Bagan brought it up and I'm liking the idea) that's able to be jump canceled. It should also allow him leap while in the air (although with less height) as well instead of being a straight slam downwards like Bowser's Down-B when used in the air, it should also plant opponents into the ground and be difficult to mash out of instead of sending them flying. It should be less laggy due to the fact he lands straight back on his feet and the moment you try to use it a second time in the air you slam straight downwards to avoid down-B climbing.
As for the Neutral B, this is very creative and gimmicky, something I never would have thought of. I like the idea of Kraid clanking with projectiles due to his Spikes, he'd be pseudo invincible, mimicking the invincibility that he had in Zero Mission and Super Metroid meaning the only way to get a projectile to land on him would be aiming for his head. I like where you went with this. But there's a problem, Brawl modding, just as Bagan told me when I proposed my move-set, the limitations we have are crippling to what we can and can't do, so I'm unsure if we can have moves coded and programmed like this and the same still applies to my move-set. Another thing is I feel it's too strong (Don't get me wrong I prefer your idea to mine and feel it should be implemented over mine, I just feel its a bit too strong). How exactly does it work? When its completely charged and you use it does he shoot all three spikes at once? Does each spike shoot one at a time going in ascending order from lowest to highest? Descending order from highest to lowest? Or do the spikes fire one at a time in Random order (adding a little RNG factor).
Regarding his proportion however, that gold statue model, while straight up Dope AF, it feels to me like it's just a tiny bit off, at least when you look at him in the context of a fighting game.It's like, he looks a bit stiff, if you know what i mean. I think something a bit closer to his melee model would be perfect. Actually, just slightly longer legs would do the trick.
Something like that: http://dkvine.com/games/gallery/cache/artwork/ssbm/kraid_01_595.png
When Frayark makes his model, Kraid might end up having similar proportions to the Golden statue albeit more malleable and less stiff looking. The only reason Kraid's model looks stiff in the picture is because, well, its a statue, it was a stiff model made to be standing in one place in one pose, I don't even think its rigged. And I'm not trying to sound insulting or anything, the way I'm wording this probably does sound that way, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm just trying to reassure your complaint with certainty that it won't turn out odd, I mean the guy's a professional, we can have faith in him.
Etika even put a link to a Strawpoll in the description asking people for their opinions on Ridley's size, and the majority of votes was STILL too big.
Ughhhh... these people...
EDIT:
Haha, right as I make this post, I notice WEK-Sector Pirate
's post directly above mine. Whatever.
Honestly resizing Kraid would be ruining his Character since unlike Ridley Kraid's size IS important to him and before you say that you can just use mini Kraid, there would still be the problem of amet
Etika even put a link to a Strawpoll in the description asking people for their opinions on Ridley's size, and the majority of votes was STILL too big.
Ughhhh... these people...
EDIT:
Haha, right as I make this post, I notice WEK-Sector Pirate
's post directly above mine. Whatever.
Honestly resizing Kraid would be ruining his Character since unlike Ridley Kraid's size IS important to him and before you say that you can just use mini Kraid, there would still be the problem of amet
Yeah, I do think this is a legitimate worry. I'd be curious to see what could be pulled off, but he's gotta be bigger than Ridley, and we all know the concerns already encountered there...
Yeah. So long as people that are interested are content with the results, this mod is a success IMO.
For the Up-B I like the utilization, although the move doesn't seem very fitting (Kraid performing an uppercut seems far-fetched), if anything the Acid shot would be the most logical considering the path the acid takes in my move-set is exactly the same as the one from the game and the path that you described, the difference is that two acid spheres would be shot, The only reason I mapped it to down B because I was unsure if that would be fitting as an up B. But I like the idea.
As for the side B, that's something really out there. I'm not sure if we can give Kraid a shoulder bash, It would make sense to keep the Side B mapped as the Claws. I know it would be key to the play-style but we can't just give him moves (Then again, Ganondorf exists and was just given moves, but in all fairness that was due to time constraints). That's why when I gave him the Cargo Drone Up-B I cringed, I just gave him a move out of the blue that seemed too far-fetched but that was only due to lack of source material. Now that you've given a better idea, I really feel that the down B should be a Gigafraug leap that's able to be jump canceled. It should also allow him leap while in the air (although with less height) as well instead of being a straight slam downwards like Bowser's Down-B when used in the air, it should also plant opponents into the ground and be difficult to mash out of instead of sending them flying. It should be less laggy due to the fact he lands straight back on his feet and the moment you try to use it a second time in the air you slam straight downwards to avoid down-B climbing.
As for the Neutral B, this is very creative and gimmicky, something I never would have thought of. I like the idea of Kraid clanking with projectiles due to his Spikes, he'd be pseudo invincible, mimicking the invincibility that he had in Zero Mission and Super Metroid meaning the only way to get a projectile to land on him would be aiming for his head. I like where you went with this. But there's a problem, Brawl modding, just as Bagan told me when I proposed my move-set, the limitations we have are crippling to what we can and can't do, so I'm unsure if we can have moves coded and programmed like this and the same still applies to my move-set. Another thing is I feel its too strong. How exactly does it work? When its completely charged and you use it does he shoot all three spikes at once? Does it shoot one at a time going in rising order from lowest to highest? Descending order from highest spike to lowest? Or do the spikes fire one at a time in Random order (adding a little RNG factor).
When Frayark makes his model, Kraid might end up having similar proportions to the Golden statue albeit more malleable and less stiff looking. The only reason Kraid's model looks stiff in the picture is because, well, its a statue, it was a stiff model made to be standing in one place in one pose, I don't even think its rigged. And I'm not trying to sound insulting or anything, the way I'm wording this probably does sound that way, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm just trying to reassure your complaint with certainty that it won't turn out odd, I mean the guy's a professional, we can have faith in him.
You make some good points.
An uppercut isn't really the right word, it's just an upward claw slash, since he's basically just throwing his talons. It's really similar to your acid spheres, but those would look strange if they were to move slowly in the air, while a slow Razor leaf-like projectile makes a bit more sense to me. I'd use the acid as an upSmash instead.
The shoulder bash is more about the utility of the move rather than being canon, but yeah, lack of source material is gonna be a huge problem, since Kraid has even less appearances than Ridley. We'll have to take creative liberties at some point.
I'm pretty sure that NeutralB can be made, I'm far from being a PSA wizard, but i know enough to say that the following can be done: The model changing according to a variable (Pit does it), moves changing according to a variable (Samus' Fire/Ice beam), and a move charging on it's own (Wario's downB, ROB's neutralB; Having NeutralB charging by itself might actually be a bad design choice when you think about it, so maybe it's not even necessary).
The way i see it, when you use neutralB you shoot the 3 spikes at once. Now that you mention it, i didn't not think of the implications of each spike being a separate projectile, so instead, it works as such: all 3 spikes are shot at the same time, traveling for about 3/4 the lenght of FD, maybe a bit less, and those 3 spikes actually count as one projectile going straight forward (So it really similar to samus' charge shot, maybe a bit slower and with a different damage/knockback ratio). The point is, as long as you hold the charge you force your opponent to approach since they can't reliably camp, and that charge can be used to punish anything stupid you opponent could do out of your physical range. It does sound strong, but PM!Wario's sideB is just as strong: what i mean is, there are counterplays, just get through Kraid's wall of hitbox and pressure him, and he won't have time to shoot; Or bait this move, and Kraid ends up without his strongest projectile, his disjoints, and he'll have to get vulnerable to get them back (this why i say an autocharge may be bad, since Kraid just have to wait and he'll get back that advantage you just forced him to drop).
I have no doubt Frayark will deliver quality content, but what i mean is his proportion don't really fit a fitting game like smash were even the slowest of characters have to move around: his legs are too short for him to jump or run, and his arms don't really allow any clawing moves. It's a great design for the fortress-like boss he is in metroid, but it doesn't really fit smash sa much as the melee model, which has longer legs and arms, a proportionally shorter body and more mobile head.
Etika even put a link to a Strawpoll in the description asking people for their opinions on Ridley's size, and the majority of votes was STILL too big.
Ughhhh... these people...
EDIT:
Haha, right as I make this post, I notice WEK-Sector Pirate
's post directly above mine. Whatever.
Well, a lot of what he calls op has already been toned down, we're even considering lowering the aerial mobility into something more orthodox, but it's not yet decided. But at least he is having a good opinion of it. I'd rather hear "I think Ridley's too big, but that mod is great" than "Ridley's too big, hence that mod sucks" any day.
Also, it's a TAS video, of course Le Ridley's gonna look op, damn.
That entirely depends on how development goes; currently, Brawl Ridley's been put on the backburner in favor of tweaking Ridley's stats and abilities to balance them a bit more.
However, Brawl Ridley will still be coming eventually...just not quite yet.
worse part that most of the loyalist detractors, especially the Etika "Daddy Sakurai!" followers, don't even care nor played the Brawl mods but Sm4sh only. so most of their opinions are mostly likely careless than knowledge and reasonable.