Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Shockbound]

It should become very clear when the opponent intends to hit you again. Bucket stalling on the way down moments before they would normally hit screws up people's timing immensely. It's also much easier to act out of than a double jump, since you can D-Air right there to smack 'em during their endlag. Doing this also lets you keep your double jump to further act upon that punish.

Bucket stall should really only be used immediately after hitstun to avoid immediately being sent over the horizontal blastzone. It will stop you faster than a double jump. If you're going off the top, bucket is going to be of much more use to you on the way down. When offstage horizontally, the odds of the opponent trying to juggle you from there are slim.

Fastfall N-Air, D-Air, and F-Air (flub) are all decent options for coming down, but you have a lot of options from bucket stall that can interrupt your trajectory and make your opponent have to think a lot more about where you're going.

 

[jtm94]

It is worth noting that bacon wavebouce and b reverse are huge for avoiding smaller hitboxes. You can juke things on the way down it's great. I can't wavebounce consistently though T-T

 

[cursdpawwa]

It is worth noting that bacon wavebouce and b reverse are huge for avoiding smaller hitboxes. You can juke things on the way down it's great. I can't wavebounce consistently though T-T

I also think b-reversing an up-angled bacon after an up-air juggle attempt is a good way to follow an opponent who DI's opposite G&W's momentum as is wavelanding after the up-air. I remember seeing a few posts back a post about the speed of perfect wavelands and that piqued my interest including it into my movement. It's difficult getting the timing down but one fun drill I'm doing is SH up-air -> perfect(or almost) waveland -> SH up-air in same direction -> waveland opposite direction -> repeat. It'd be pretty hype if someone perfect-wavelanded backwards into a DACUS as a mixup since the distances are very close.

 

[jtm94]

I waveland a lot out of up air. Bidoof had a juggle where he followed their DI by wavelanding out of up air against a ZSS. I will SH from ledge and up air then waveland on stage. I also just move around with wavedashing that looks like moonwalking and up airing because it's nonpunishable in neutral. I had perfect wavelands down in 3.02, but the new mechanics make it sort of harder for me.

I am sad that I can't wavedash off a platform on battlefield then jump to the top platform because GnW's DJ is so short.

Something I practice when I hate myself is starting at the top of Battlefield with a SH uair then waveland off the plat and uair as soon as I fall off then waveland on the plat below to the ground and uair again then waveland on the ground. Looks really slick and trippy. Is also frustratingly difficult not because it's super hard, but the timing to uair as you waveland off changes based on the distance and angle you had so it's just inconsistent to do it all in one go.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

PM G&W is the best G&W in all smash games.

 

[shapular]

PM G&W is the best G&W in all smash games.

Nah, Brawl G&W is still better. It got closer in 3.5 though.

 

[jtm94]

Nah, Brawl G&W is still better. It got closer in 3.5 though.

I've only played that character once, and it was terrible.

 

[shapular]

I've only played that character once, and it was terrible.

If you try to play him like PM G&W, maybe. Coming from Melee it was glorious. It was like, "Whoa, turtle is good now! Smashes are so powerful! Even dsmash is good! This character is good!" Brawl G&W only has like two matchups keeping him from being viable imo (MK and Marth). PM G&W has a lot more terrible matchups than that (Marth, Roy, Link, Fox, Falco). He has the same general weaknesses but more characters can exploit those weaknesses, and his weight matters a lot more since he can't bucket brake and his recovery got nerfed.

 

[jtm94]

His recovery is still up there and Link and Falco can be dealt with. Link got hit pretty hard.

 

[shapular]

His recovery is still decent for PM standards, but he can't go as deep as he used to, especially since he could kill off the side with up B (although I actually killed off the side with up B in PM once, it was weird). He can still edgeguard fine and go low but he can't pick off characters recovering high. Link is still Link, just slightly less ridiculous.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Brawl G&W was terrible and completely unviable. He got hard bodied by Metaknight, Snake, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Toon Link, Marth, and Zero Suit. That's basically all of the tournament characters. The only thing that kept him decent was his floaty disjoint gave him 60:40s against most of the mid to low tiers.

By comparison PM G&W is ridiculously good because he can at least do things to viable characters.

 

[shapular]

m3t confirmed bad at Brawl. Snake and Marth are the only characters I had enough trouble with that I'd consider playing another character (unfortunately I don't have a Marth counter). I haven't had too much trouble beating MKs in tournament. Last one I took out was Pops from your state.

PM G&W is probably good (finally), but there are more characters better than him than there are in Brawl, and probably by a greater margin.

 

[Black Bean]

m3t confirmed bad at Brawl. Snake and Marth are the only characters I had enough trouble with that I'd consider playing another character (unfortunately I don't have a Marth counter). I haven't had too much trouble beating MKs in tournament. Last one I took out was Pops from your state.

PM G&W is probably good (finally), but there are more characters better than him than there are in Brawl, and probably by a greater margin.

Look, nobody in this thread wants to discuss brawl GnW. There is a much more appropriate place on this forum to talk about that.

 

[shapular]

Look, nobody in this thread wants to discuss brawl GnW. There is a much more appropriate place on this forum to talk about that.

Clearly people do. You don't have to read those posts if you don't want.

 

[Metmetm3t]

So anyways, back to PM G&W...

 

[felipe_9595]

So anyways, back to PM G&W...

I 0-to-Death Dark, that counts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjPze6Ja-1M&list=UUG8gkQlBew1aQu_iSqqJmLQ

 

[jtm94]

Getting there.

 

[felipe_9595]

Btw, speaking about that, i have problems with the Fox matchup, but not with all foxes, specifically with Dark's Fox, he is so utterly aggressive that i feel like i have no options when he gets in my shield and i just get facerolled.

http://www.twitch.tv/usmash/b/598831782 min 14

 

[Needle of Juntah]

All Im going to say is brawl GW was FKIN AWESOME compared to smash 4 GW. Its really upsetting

And BTW I think i just broke PM GW... Im doing **** ive never seen anyone do, certainly a lot I need to do like the good GW's also though.

 

[jtm94]

All Im going to say is brawl GW was FKIN AWESOME compared to smash 4 GW. Its really upsetting

And BTW I think i just broke PM GW... Im doing **** ive never seen anyone do, certainly a lot I need to do like the good GW's also though.

What is it that you're doing may I ask? c:

 

[Needle of Juntah]

What is it that you're doing may I ask? c:

Bacon work

Whos considered the best GW right now? Dakpo or Nintendude imo

 

[jtm94]

Definitely Dakpo. I don't think that's really a question at the moment.

 

[shapular]

All Im going to say is brawl GW was FKIN AWESOME compared to smash 4 GW. Its really upsetting

And BTW I think i just broke PM GW... Im doing **** ive never seen anyone do, certainly a lot I need to do like the good GW's also though.

Smash 4 G&W has no kill power anymore. That was always one of my favorite things about G&W. And please do share.

 

[Hamman88]

The best "new" use I seem to have of found for the new bacon is it works much better as a combo extender then 3.0 bacon. I know this isn't a "new" concept or use, but I feel its much easier to connect with and the hitstun lasts for longer. When finishing a up+b combo string where im often left below the opponent, I can almost hold him in place in the air with bacon while I fall and jsut follow up with another up b, since hitting one mega meat allows for another mega meat, so as long as you keep connecting each mega meat, makes for an ever better combo game.

 

[felipe_9595]

The best "new" use I seem to have of found for the new bacon is it works much better as a combo extender then 3.0 bacon. I know this isn't a "new" concept or use, but I feel its much easier to connect with and the hitstun lasts for longer. When finishing a up+b combo string where im often left below the opponent, I can almost hold him in place in the air with bacon while I fall and jsut follow up with another up b, since hitting one mega meat allows for another mega meat, so as long as you keep connecting each mega meat, makes for an ever better combo game.

I noticed that too, something that i seem to be able to pull always, is Approaching Bacon -> Fair-> Hit by the Bacon -> Fair, or Bacon -> Grab ->Fthrow to bacon -> Anything.

 

[Shockbound]

Bacon remains a fantastic tool for harrassing from below a platform. SH double bacon also leads into tons of approaches for you while simultaneously stuffing the opponent's approach options.

I am finding it rather difficult to angle bacon. The effect that angling it actually has is subtle enough to delude me into thinking that angling the bacon doesn't matter. I know that it really does matter when I look back at recordings of my games, but when in the heat of the match I think that it's much too risky to attempt since I might accidentally Oil Panic or something and get punished for it.

The few things that I do know about angling is that it limits the threshold of the possible 5 trajectories down to the lowermost or uppermost 3, and that the next trajectory cannot be either of the 2 most recently selected ones. It is possible to guarantee the next bacon trajectory in this way, but I honestly cannot see a practical application for this that normally angling the bacon couldn't already do.

Anyone have tips for angling? How long is the frame window that I have to input the direction? Is there a way to not fastfall when down-angling aerial bacon?

IN OTHER NEWS:

This is probably common knowledge already, but I learned about a very safe way to recover from the ledge.

Simply grab the ledge and fall off as soon as possible, then use Up-B at its most extreme angle towards the stage. You get invulnerability to last nearly the entire duration of the move while getting great distance and a hitbox to interrupt any edgeguarder that might be in your path. You also get to keep your double jump.

I find this most useful for dealing with Link's Up-B, but it can work for pretty much everyone else with a potent edgeguard.

 

[Hamman88]

IN OTHER NEWS:

This is probably common knowledge already, but I learned about a very safe way to recover from the ledge.

Simply grab the ledge and fall off as soon as possible, then use Up-B at its most extreme angle towards the stage. You get invulnerability to last nearly the entire duration of the move while getting great distance and a hitbox to interrupt any edgeguarder that might be in your path. You also get to keep your double jump.

I find this most useful for dealing with Link's Up-B, but it can work for pretty much everyone else with a potent edgeguard.

I love using this, I've actually done the same experiment myself in debug, but whats great about it, is if you feel that you're using it too frequently, and the opponent is begining to catch on, you can just land with a wavebounced/b-reversed bacon to avoid any followups, or just an general waveland onto the stage if they start staying farther from the ledge


Also the only use for angling bacon that I find really useful, is when short hop fast fall bacon, against a marth or roy, when using the down angle, it will hit them when they are crouched low in their dash animation, a big help in the matchup, as they could just dash attack in and get a free punish of eevery bacon

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Ive found things out about this Char I cant tell you guys yet I really want to but I dont want it getting nerfed lol... But 4 years into this thing I shoulden't be teaching anyone anything my 2nd week.

 

[felipe_9595]

Ive found things out about this Char I cant tell you guys yet I really want to but I dont want it getting nerfed lol... But 4 years into this thing I shoulden't be teaching anyone anything my 2nd week.

I have seen 3 or 4 pposts in this same fashion, if you know something spill it out but so far you are starting to look bad. Also, i doubt anything you know is relevant, almost every GnW tech is public knowledge by now.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

I have seen 3 or 4 pposts in this same fashion, if you know something spill it out but so far you are starting to look bad. Also, i doubt anything you know is relevant, almost every GnW tech is public knowledge by now.

Yeah its probably not relevant

 

[Juushichi]

Mr. Broken and Watch.
I played GnW on Tuesday in a MM. I 3-0ed a local Bowser for $5 and delicious ELO.

 

[Dakpo]

Welp, just got 4th out of 150. It felt really good to get top 4 at a national. Got second in doubles.
I got double eliminated by Sethlon (figures) I also beat a few top melee players.

I beat sparking zero 2-0, javi 3-0, pax 3-0, jnig/jsalt 3-0, luck 3-0, and silver 2-0.

 

[Black Bean]

does anybody have link tips? his dair seems to destroy half of our combo game.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Links Dair is not a combo breaker because it has decent startup so you can beat it early. If you are trying to string something together where you have to respect dair then just actually respect it. Don't be so bloodthirsty, and just let him hang himself. You can blow him up on landing lag or with horizontal spacing.

 

[felipe_9595]

does anybody have link tips? his dair seems to destroy half of our combo game.

You can beat dair in its startup, at worst, it trades with your up b, so dont be afraid, just respect it.

 

[Black Bean]

Links Dair is not a combo breaker because it has decent startup so you can beat it early. If you are trying to string something together where you have to respect dair then just actually respect it. Don't be so bloodthirsty, and just let him hang himself. You can blow him up on landing lag or with horizontal spacing.

I figured as much. Thanks!

 

[Dakpo]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLjsXbJ48MWJVGSMUuz-aVk5jF49Rx3waK&v=qzRgAunbuss
Pretty awesome set

 

[howbadisbad]

How does one not get nair and drill shined into oblivion against fox? I don't seem to be able to leave my shield ever without getting punished for it.

 

[shapular]

How does one not get nair and drill shined into oblivion against fox? I don't seem to be able to leave my shield ever without getting punished for it.

You don't. It's Fox. That character is broken. If your local TO hasn't banned him yet then get them to do that.

 

[choZo]

lol you have options against fox's shield pressure. Gw vs spacies is not that hard compared to his actual bad mus. You can kill spacies crazy early, and up b oos is godlike