Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[shapular]

Besides f-tilt, does anyone have an interesting yet applicable edge-guarding options that are very safe?
Also, does G&W have any moves safe on shield?

Dtilt works against characters that can't hit you through the stage. You can try dairing at the ledge, it should pop them up for a fair or something. I've seen M3t use ledge getup attack as an edgeguarding option to knock them back out. Against some characters, if they're recovering low, you can hang on the ledge and then drop dair or drop dj dair to meteor them.

Following up on the flub fair that Shockbound mentioned, you can actually do a few things to follow that up. My favorite is flub fair to strong fair. It'll usually result in a gimp. Against faster falling characters you can flub fair to dair, but you'll often die from that so do it when you can afford to trade stocks (i.e., opponent on last stock, or you at high percent and opponent at low percent). If you can catch them with the bottom part of your up B (not the part that sends them up) it'll pop them up a little bit and then make them fall again while in hitstun. If you're in a position where they're in between you and the ledge and you need to up B through them (this is a good tip in general), use bucket to stall your momentum, then double jump and up B. They should be out of your way by then.

 

[Dakpo]

*tears of joy* you guys study me so thoroughly. It like I don't even have to give you guys advice anymore

 

[Dakpo]

*tears of joy* you guys study me so thoroughly. Its like I don't even have to give you guys advice anymore

 

[Shoto]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jeNFmmf6Kk
Is it possible that we could use this?
1. Down throw tech chase opponent one or two times.
2. Mix up with an up throw.
3. Jab before they hit the ground.
4. Regrab then down throw
After all of this they wouldn't have the ability to tech so you could follow up with something afterwards like an f-smash. I'm not sure how it all works, so I could use some pro advice on the validity of this.

Edit: I think it may only work on spacies or fast fallers since they fall quicker, making it easier to trap them within the 40 frame penalty.

 

[Juushichi]

Also, does G&W have any moves safe on shield?

pan hit of neutral B as mentioned is pretty safe, nair i believe is still -1 so it's pretty safe retreating. fair and bair i think are safe enough.

As far as tech traps, you probably are better suited for f/b throw at lower percents on FFers rather than uthrow because of the awkward positioning. once you do that, mixing with the down throw is what I use to tech trap a lot of the time

also IC aren't as free as I last remembered haha. I finally lost to Fumbles' IC in tournament and it was a 2-0, ouch.

 

[Shoto]

pan hit of neutral B as mentioned is pretty safe, nair i believe is still -1 so it's pretty safe retreating. fair and bair i think are safe enough.

As far as tech traps, you probably are better suited for f/b throw at lower percents on FFers rather than uthrow because of the awkward positioning. once you do that, mixing with the down throw is what I use to tech trap a lot of the time

Okay, thanks man. I saw the video and I was thinking about how that could improve my play. It kind of provides free punishes on opponents who get grabbed. I'll stick with f/b throws like you mentioned. The up throw is a bit close, and if they DI behind you instantly miss the regrab.

 

[Metmetm3t]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jeNFmmf6Kk
Is it possible that we could use this?
1. Down throw tech chase opponent one or two times.
2. Mix up with an up throw.
3. Jab before they hit the ground.
4. Regrab then down throw
After all of this they wouldn't have the ability to tech so you could follow up with something afterwards like an f-smash. I'm not sure how it all works, so I could use some pro advice on the validity of this.

Edit: I think it may only work on spacies or fast fallers since they fall quicker, making it easier to trap them within the 40 frame penalty.

If you can jab to grab then you can almost certainly just skip the jab and grab right there, but even still G&W's throws aren't really fast enough to catch them during the lockout. On average weights he releases them around frame 40. I guess it could theoretically work against Fox since he's light, but only if he was trying to input tech pretty late.

pan hit of neutral B as mentioned is pretty safe, nair i believe is still -1 so it's pretty safe retreating. fair and bair i think are safe enough.

As far as tech traps, you probably are better suited for f/b throw at lower percents on FFers rather than uthrow because of the awkward positioning. once you do that, mixing with the down throw is what I use to tech trap a lot of the time

also IC aren't as free as I last remembered haha. I finally lost to Fumbles' IC in tournament and it was a 2-0, ouch.

Yo read the frame data thread. Nair is +1 on shield if timed perfectly and Pan Hit is +2.

 

[Juushichi]

i don't read nothin

and ok

 

[jtm94]

My buddy grabs my bair on shield so often so I started just spacing it away from him, and he shield DIs into me and grab armors my UpB. It is not safe on shield against people who are knowledgeable, but I have done bair to pivot grab or jab on people's shields because they respected it so hard.

Strong hit of fair spaced well just doesn't let them get to you.

Do you have to do anything special to have nair be safe on shield? I use nair A LOT recently.

 

[Juushichi]

i generally float it so the very edge of nair hits tbh

 

[Metmetm3t]

Nair has such a long startup that it's not really ever going to be an optimal shield pressure tool, but if you do end up hitting there shield with it the same rules apply for every aerial. Try to get max spacing and time it to hit as late as possible.

 

[Shoto]

I'm really enjoying bacon harassment to force approaches. I've had a bit of trouble playing against a Roy. He crouch cancels quite a bit, and just tries to out range me. I win most of the time, but usually with only 1-stock. I wanna whoop this kid next time I see him. Any help with a crouching Roy?

 

[Metmetm3t]

Roy is one of our weakest matchups. You won't be able to just harass him and expect to win. You have to rely more heavily on effective punishes, so just play calmly and make sure he flinches first.

 

[Shoto]

Will do. I don't really like Marth or Roy against Game and Watch. Swords are annoying. Ike is okay though.

 

[Prioritized]

also IC aren't as free as I last remembered haha. I finally lost to Fumbles' IC in tournament and it was a 2-0, ouch.

Any advice for playing against ICs? My brother plays them and would appreciate some help.

 

[jtm94]

I agree Ike isn't as bad, he does have guaranteed fairs out of throws, but his dash dance game is significantly worse.

space bair on their shield and it will make them sad. They can't out range it and if you UpB out of it perfectly they can only grab for one frame. I had a lot of success shield poking with it and nair actually. Bacon seems annoying for them and frying pan on shield is also good, just separate then kill. Don't get grabbed at ledge.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Hey guys, check out my G&W combo

 

[jtm94]

It just looked good the way the bair led into uair.

 

[Shoto]

Bair to fair will always be one of my faves <3

 

[jtm94]

I really do like bair, it's my favorite move GnW has, then jab.

 

[shapular]

I entered a netplay tournament yesterday and it reminded me why I think G&W will never be truly viable in PM unless he gets some significant changes. Out of four games I played, I ran into a Marth, a Roy, a Sheik, and a Falcon, all pretty bad to very bad matchups for G&W (some say Falcon is even but I disagree) and all very popular characters. I mean, just look at the top 11 or so characters here and tell me how many we don't lose to. G&W's counters are too popular (as mains or secondaries) for him to get very far in the 3.5 meta even if he was one of like 2 or 3 characters to get buffed.

 

[jtm94]

Dark Rain won't play Falcon against Strong Bad's GnW with Falcon because he can't beat him. I don't think the MU is that bad. GnW vs Sheik isn't that bad either.

 

[shapular]

Dark Rain won't play Falcon against Strong Bad's GnW with Falcon because he can't beat him. I don't think the MU is that bad. GnW vs Sheik isn't that bad either.

Darkrain is a has-been. Does he even play PM?

 

[Shoto]

Darkrain is a has-been. Does he even play PM?

Kinda harsh. He was a great Falcon player, and probably still is. I can imagine that he has quite a bit of rust on him though. He doesn't play PM as far as I can tell, but a simple google search will tell us.

(searching)

Took me approximately .22 seconds to see that Darkrain has played PM but not anytime recently.

 

[shapular]

Kinda harsh. He was a great Falcon player

This is the definition of a "has-been". He used to be amazing, but now he's just a really good player in a relatively weak region.

 

[shapular]

I had the same deal with the tournament I went to last Saturday. Ran into a Link player who is a good bit worse than me (he's from my town and I've played him before), won game 1 but got 3 stocked game 2 iirc. Switched to Marth game 3, played horribly, and lost. That's mostly my own fault since I rarely practice PM anymore, but it's still a decent example of a popular character that's very hard to win against for G&W.

 

[VinceX]

Hey guys, newbie Gdubs here. I would like to know if you guys have any general tips on how to approach Charizard. For some reason, my mind is just unable to understand how to deal with him. Someone once told me to use B-air to approach, is that a good suggestion?

Edit : Wait, this might not be the appropriate thread to ask that. Sorry

 

[cruised]

Did @ Juushichi play any GW at Shots Fired?

 

[Juushichi]

Yes.

I beat a DK in my pool with him. Only one game, though. Sorry. ;_;

 

[Dos_Equis]

What do you guys normally do from edge? Unless I reach with my fair and nip them away, I tend to have a hard time pushing back onto the stage.

 

[jtm94]

With Charizard you don't really need to approach, just figure out how to use bacon and it should become crazy easy.

Maxx you're soooo good!
Just invincible UpB angled into the stage.

 

[Shockbound]

When it comes to getting up from the ledge, I've recently become a fan of ledge-release hop followed by B-reversed down-angled bacon. Bacon will either travel over their head to cut off their retreat options or put them into hitstun that can lead into a dash-cancelled D-Tilt; I don't think I need to mention what that leads into.

The pan's hitbox comes out at the same time that the bacon does, so it's there to hit people when you swing back around. It serves as a much better substitute for ledge-getup attack since it autocancels upon landing, which can then let you act while still keeping your projectile close enough to protect you.

It's rather situational, but if you know that they won't be crouch cancelling the pan hit then you can start a sick punish off of it. Sometimes a follow up D-Tilt flicks them up into your bacon so that you can D-Tilt them again, which tacks on an easy 17% to your combo. The second D-Tilt will throw them back since they're in the air now, and (depending on how they DI) they'll either be in just the right spot for a shorthop Up-Air/F-Air or just the right range for you to DACUS into them before they get the chance to tech. It might not work on everybody, but I did this with a DACUS against a Kirby today.

 

[Shoto]

Placed 3rd @ a weekly again. I lost out to a Fox. (I hate that matchup)
I had to play Samus once or twice during the tourney. But the player who won the tournament was another G&W main by the name of ChippedGroove, and his tag is CG. He is pretty good, and hopefully I can get a few pointers from him so that I can up my skill.

 

[shapular]

Every time I try to play PM now I'm painfully reminded of how bad G&W is. It doesn't seem like he can even do anything anymore. SHDB nerf hurt way too much. It's not just that I'm rusty either; I considered that. It's just his frame data. Fair has literally no hitstun at low percents so if you try to hit someone with it you will get punished. I was playing a Charizard on netplay just now who wasn't even that good and I learned that lesson very quickly. I still want to try to play this game on the side but it's so discouraging.

Edit: Btw I'm probably exaggerating how bad G&W is. He's still probably mid tier. He just loses five or six matchups pretty solidly and those happen to be the most popular characters in PM. He's obviously not nearly as good as Fox/Falco/Marth, but he can still do well against most characters. That said, as of now I'm switching my main from pink G&W back to black G&W. I'm also thinking about pulling a UTDZac and maining Pikachu, or at least co-maining him. He's a lot of fun and I think he can keep up with the top characters a bit better. But for now I'll stop being salty and try to win my weekly tournament tomorrow with G&W.

Also regarding the lack of hitstun on fair at low percents, it seems it applies to utilt too. I anti-aired a Falco with it a couple times and got shined for it. Is this a common thing in PM or is it just the characters I play?

 

[Shoto]

I don't think he's bad, but I hate his bad match-ups. Funny story: some guy at the last tournament I attended picked Marth because he knew it was a counterpick. But unless you have experience with that character, it's pretty easy to be trash. And he got bopped. But I can see what you are talking about with people recieving low hitstun. You just have to use a different move until you raise their percent. Shine is super annoying whenever it gets mashed out in the middle of one of your strings.

 

[cruised]

Big bacons are a really good follow up at low percent off throws or dtilt. Instead of sh-upair->DJ->upair, you can sh-upair->chef->aerial followup. I'm pretty sure the new big meats have more hitstun than the 3.0 meats, since using them as combo-extenders seems to be easier.

 

[Black Bean]

... Funny story: some guy at the last tournament I attended picked Marth because he knew it was a counterpick. But unless you have experience with that character, it's pretty easy to be trash. And he got bopped...

ROFL. This actually happened at a biweekly here in Arkansas. A player picked Marth because he knew about the matchup trouble but got 3 stocked because of his inexperience. I was really happy to do it too, because I felt major disrespected.

 

[shapular]

Everybody seems to have a pocket Marth. He's an easy character to play and a hard counter to G&W at the same time. Life is hard.

Edit: Usually when I run into Marths I either ditto them (I have a lot of experience in the Marth ditto and I'm pretty good at it) or go Link. Unfortunately my Marth is amazing sometimes and terrible other times, so I never know which one I'm going to get. I usually can't win two games in a row with him either.

 

[shapular]

I didn't win the tournament yesterday but I got 2nd. I also got enough footage for a combo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohzMs8kyQKM

 

[Shoto]

At school currently, but I'll def check out your video. I play a bit of Marth, but I don't really like him as a character. Usually for the games I get destroyed, I choose Samus and counter-pick to Distant Planet. I tend to do better after that, so I like having a secondary there just in case.