Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

When I mash, I only get 1 bacon lel

 

[Dakpo]

I always double press

 

[Shockbound]

You have an 8 frame window to press B again once you are 15 frames into the move. The window closes on frame 23. Keep in mind that G&W's shorthop has 31 frames of airtime after leaving jumpsquat and that the first piece of bacon comes out on frame 8.

The second piece of bacon will be launched 7 frames later if B is pressed at any time between frames 15 and 23. If Chef is initiated at the very first frame of airtime, both pieces of bacon would be launched by frame 22 at the earliest and frame 29 at the latest. This leaves 9 to 2 frames of remaining airtime.

However, Chef can still launch its projectile on the frame that G&W lands if the first frame of landing lag coincides the frame where the bacon would have been launched. This results in the bacon simply appearing above G&W's nose without a corresponding pan hitbox. Because of this, it effectively raises the amount of time that can be wasted in the air before Chef is initiated by 1 frame.

You could do absolutely nothing for the first 10 frames of airtime during G&W's shorthop and still manage to launch both pieces of bacon if you time your B presses perfectly. You could also start Chef on the first frame of airtime, time your B presses perfectly, AND fastfall as soon as you are able to do so (G&W has a SHFF speed of 21 frames without jumpsquat) to launch both pieces of bacon in only 29 frames when factoring in jumpsquat and landing lag.

It's also possible to launch both pieces of bacon with 2 frames of unused air time by simply holding B, which will always launch the second piece of bacon on the 30th frame of Chef's animation. It's certainly not the most optimal method to performing SHDB, but it only requires that you catch a single timing window as opposed to two consecutive windows. However, this window is only open for 3 frames and it can't utilize fastfalling, so it's inferior to the other method since it can't be done nearly as fast.

[collapse="Leniency in performing SHDB"]You have 10 frames worth of room for error to split between:

1. The delay after your jumpsquat ends, before you actually first press B to initiate the move
2. The 8 frame window where you must press B again in order to launch the second bacon

As an example, say that you spent 4 frames worth of time in the air before you initiated Chef. You would then have a 7 frame window to press B again after frame 15 instead of an 8 frame window because hitting the window any later than that would result in hitting the ground before the second bacon gets to appear. You'd ideally want to hit that window at the very first frame it opens so that you wouldn't waste any frames, but you could still overshoot this by 6 frames and successfully launch both pieces of bacon.

If you spend 10 frames in the air after jumpsquat ends before initiating Chef, you would have a 1 frame window instead of an 8 frame window because you have no room left for error and must execute your timing perfectly in order to launch both pieces of bacon successfully.

If you don't waste a single frame in the air before initiating Chef, then you could hit any of the 8 frames in the 8 frame window because you would still have several frames to go in order to hit the ground even if you pressed B on the very last available frame of the window. You would still have to meet this 8 frame window to launch the second piece of bacon regardless of how early you initiate Chef. Pressing B after that window simply wouldn't do anything, even if you were still in the air.[/collapse]

TL;DR

Getting two pieces of bacon out in one shorthop is something that takes practice, but it's really not very difficult to perform compared to most other ATs that are out there. However, it takes real skill to do it optimally by combining this with fastfalling. It's a very lenient trick for beginners to do successfully, but mastering it is way harder than it looks and is something that I don't think anybody has truly gotten down yet.

 

[shapular]

I don't think SHDBing optimally is that important.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I'm honestly not too worried about mastering SHDB myself honestly, throwing projectiles a lot just doesn't suit me. I prefer to be all over the place rather than zoning lel

 

[shapular]

I'm honestly not too worried about mastering SHDB myself honestly, throwing projectiles a lot just doesn't suit me. I prefer to be all over the place rather than zoning lel

Fortunately for you, bacon isn't that good or spammable anymore. A lot of times it's better to just throw out one bacon and fastfall it because of the new changes.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Fortunately for you, bacon isn't that good or spammable anymore. A lot of times it's better to just throw out one bacon and fastfall it because of the new changes.

Only the steak-shaped ones make the opponent flinch, right?

When I do use bacon, I usually just turn away, jump, and do a b-reversal bacon to throw out a damage dot when I approach. (Sometimes I skip the b-reversal to not be so predictable though.)

 

[Metmetm3t]

Only the steak-shaped ones make the opponent flinch, right?

When I do use bacon, I usually just turn away, jump, and do a b-reversal bacon to throw out a damage dot when I approach. (Sometimes I skip the b-reversal to not be so predictable though.)

No, all the shapes cause flinching, but if you throw out more than 2 before the first one vanishes they become mini-meat, which are noticeably smaller than the normal ones and are non-flinching.

Basically if you start spamming you'll screw yourself over, but with some practice there is a rhythm where you can keep just two on the screen at once and still be throwing out quite a bit.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

No, all the shapes cause flinching, but if you throw out more than 2 before the first one vanishes they become mini-meat, which are noticeably smaller than the normal ones and are non-flinching.

Basically if you start spamming you'll screw yourself over, but with some practice there is a rhythm where you can keep just two on the screen at once and still be throwing out quite a bit.

Ah alright, thanks for clarifying.

Good thing I don't spam it then

​

 

[felipe_9595]

I do 1 bacon for approaching and 2 when retreating. I also think SHFFDB is really easy (Maybe because i am a 64 player who has a pocket fox), but i never considered it as a tech that needed mastering lol

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Mr. Game & Watch's taunt cancels always amuse me.

thank u based @ Dakpo for always doing them

 

[shapular]

@ Dakpo What happened at Aftershock? Looks like Sosa is a Fox main, is that right? Sucks that that character is still broken. He's one of the main reasons that PM isn't a good competitive game. And I don't even see you in Smash 4 top 36, what happened there? I thought for sure you'd be able to get top 8, especially after taking a game off Dabuz last night. I don't see Denti either. Weird tournament.

Edit: I'm stupid, I forgot there were qualifiers for Aftershock. I assume you qualified by winning DBA3, right?

 

[jtm94]

DAKPO WHAT DID YOU DO AT AFTERSHOCK ARE THERE VIDEOS TEACH ME SENPAI!

I lost to Indy's Captain Falcon and then a Roy main who plays Marth in Melee and only plays Marth against me even from game 1 because he knows it sucks and I crush his Roy it's free as hell, but his Marth is so much better what do against character error unhandled exception eerrererre KER - == [/end script']aefcaegae

 

[shapular]

DAKPO WHAT DID YOU DO AT AFTERSHOCK ARE THERE VIDEOS TEACH ME SENPAI!

I lost to Indy's Captain Falcon and then a Roy main who plays Marth in Melee and only plays Marth against me even from game 1 because he knows it sucks and I crush his Roy it's free as hell, but his Marth is so much better what do against character error unhandled exception eerrererre KER - == [/end script']aefcaegae

You should probably go Sheik against Marth.

 

[jtm94]

I always go GnW game 1 because he's my main v.v
I won a game against his Marth with Sheik. I lost to cheese game 3 when I recovered poorly as Sheik. I'm slowly getting there, Sheik is harder than I thought. She's very easy in theory, but her movement is so much more rigid than GnW.

 

[shapular]

I always go GnW game 1 because he's my main v.v
I won a game against his Marth with Sheik. I lost to cheese game 3 when I recovered poorly as Sheik. I'm slowly getting there, Sheik is harder than I thought. She's very easy in theory, but her movement is so much more rigid than GnW.

You can't get hung up on pride like that. If you think you have a better chance with Sheik than G&W, you should go Sheik game 1.

 

[Dakpo]

@ Dakpo What happened at Aftershock? Looks like Sosa is a Fox main, is that right? Sucks that that character is still broken. He's one of the main reasons that PM isn't a good competitive game. And I don't even see you in Smash 4 top 36, what happened there? I thought for sure you'd be able to get top 8, especially after taking a game off Dabuz last night. I don't see Denti either. Weird tournament.

Edit: I'm stupid, I forgot there were qualifiers for Aftershock. I assume you qualified by winning DBA3, right?

I'm going to be really honest , I out played both my opponents in pm singles. I had 4 heartbreaking suicides....I'm 100% sure that those should have been my sets. Lol ledge dashing is hard and so is maximum angled up B.

But on a side note, I won a national doubles tournament with lunchables )))

 

[jtm94]

The only character I consistently miss ledge dashes with is GnW. We're all sad to not see you in bracket, but you guys definitely wrecked in doubles. We always have those sets to look forward too.

 

[shapular]

The only character I consistently miss ledge dashes with is GnW. We're all sad to not see you in bracket, but you guys definitely wrecked in doubles. We always have those sets to look forward too.

Probably because G&W doesn't bring his feet up at all during a ledge hop. Mario brings his feet level with the stage almost instantly so it's almost impossible to mess up a ledgedash with him.

Btw, congrats on first place in doubles, Dakpo. You and Lunchables are unstoppable.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I always consider Dakpo the winner every time he taunt cancels ˙͜ >˙

 

[cruised]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but you can ledgehop Judgement and then regrab the ledge right after with a tight timing.

 

[shapular]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but you can ledgehop Judgement and then regrab the ledge right after with a tight timing.

I think you can do the same for all his aerials except nair and maybe dair.

 

[felipe_9595]

Hey guys, won another tournament the last weekend, this time vs a Falcon : 333 (I can understand why people find the matchup difficult but honestly, i think Bacon and Utilt ****s Falcon too hard)

Vid of GF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-vF2YxoyF4

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

So I was fighting a Wolf, and when I knocked him offstage I chased after him and used Judgment aimed at the ledge. As I predicted, he tried to Wolf Flash and ended up getting hit by an 8 and fell, frozen, to his death lel

 

[jtm94]

8 is amazing. Going to weekly tomorrow, it's gonna be small with none of the Melee players so it shouldn't be as difficult. Hope to get more footage.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Gotta love bacon setups

@ Dakpo have you ever had a bacon -> 9 like this before

 

[jtm94]

Hahahaha, and the reverse hitbox.

 

[Dakpo]

Im not allowed to talk about the things I've done off stream

 

[jtm94]

Sounds kinky.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

2spicy4kids

 

[felipe_9595]

I heard rumors of a possible nerf to G&W's up b in 3.6, anyone ehard anything about that?

 

[shapular]

I heard rumors of a possible nerf to G&W's up b in 3.6, anyone ehard anything about that?

I didn't think there were going to be any balance changes in 3.6. What would they even nerf about it?

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

The only thing I can think of is maybe making it to where you can't use your double jump if you up-b beforehand.

 

[Shockbound]

The only thing I can think of is maybe making it to where you can't use your double jump if you up-b beforehand.

That would be an enormous change. If that actually ends up happening then G&W had better be getting some new tools to make up for it.

From what I've heard, 3.6 is supposedly intended to have more emphasis on bug-fixes and content updates than character balance. There'll be some character changes for sure, but I have reason to believe that these are mostly changes that are aimed to deal with glitchiness seeing how as the only big character change I saw in the trailer was how Olimar's Up-B (I assume it's his Up-B anyways) was completely remade to not involve a tether whatsoever. Regardless of whether tethers are actually getting changed, he no longer needs to rely on a glitchy and unreliable game mechanic in order to engage in any sort of recovery.

I heard rumors of a possible nerf to G&W's up b in 3.6, anyone ehard anything about that?

People have definitely complained a lot about G&W's ability to jump out of Up-B, but I think it's part of what makes him such a unique and interesting character and would feel that its removal would heavily (not to mention needlessly) impact the way that he plays.

I speculate that you probably heard that coming out of the mouth of somebody with an unreasonably high amount of sodium in their diet.

 

[shapular]

The only thing I can think of is maybe making it to where you can't use your double jump if you up-b beforehand.

That would totally change a lot of his combos. I doubt they'd do that without giving him something else. If they did, I'd just switch to Pikachu (though I don't really play this game competitively anymore so it doesn't really matter).

 

[jtm94]

If he gets hit out of UpB he can't DJ later. I think that's reasonable?
And dtilt change to fit animation more to not hit aerial opponents. I just want it to look right.
Just my guesses.

 

[Rᴏb]

I really can't see them taking away his ability to DJ after upb, regardless if he gets hit or not. It would change a lot of his combos as Shapular said, and it would be a needless nerf to his recovery; the recovery that he needs considering how easy it is to hit him off stage since he is the fourth lightest character in the game.

 

[jtm94]

It's still good recovery though regardless.
I could say it's hard to keep track of. You have no indicator if he has DJ or not and because of that you have to respect his recovery just in case he has DJ.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

It's pretty great saving the DJ, because people try to do their standard run-of-the-mill edgeguards expecting me to fall into it, but nope I got my DJ and can do whatever I want while they're whiffing their attack lel.

 

[Dakpo]

I will Be extremely upset if they change our DJ after up B. I would almost be completely convinced just to main falco and marth