Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Yung Mei]

Gatling grab is broken af. Seriously it's godlike. Why don't you all do it more? Just press shield everytime you hit with the first dash attack hit and you'll get a grab often. Option selects for days. I never see it from any other GnW players. Opponent sitting in shield? Gatling grab them. I love griming people with it. It's easily his best shield pressure option in most cases. You can even combo into it from the dash attack hit at certain percents and if they cc or di poorly. It's an awesome tool so more people should use it!

I tried to test it in debug mode, and I think the dash grab comes out 4 frames after shield stun ends. Didn't test the pivot grab. I'll test it again when I get back to my dorm tomorrow, but seriously it's godlike and no one does it.

i use it as a mixup myself, thought met pretty much tells you why it should only be used as a mixup. IIRC, if you hit their shield and do a pivot grab , youll grab them from behind, i dont remember exactly which characters it works on though

 

[Revvy]

Brawl is objectively better in every way aesthetically.

To be clear, I mean compared to Melee. And it's not an opinion, it's fact.

Because you can measure aesthetics, an entirely subjective idea, objectively. Please tell all the greatest philosophical minds how you have done so and what you intend to name the unit of measurement.

Sarcasm aside, you could have said the game is more graphically intensive, with supporting points about the textures, models, and so on.

 

[cursdpawwa]

Just a small thing. I find it difficult to use upB at its most horizontal angles. However, by using the C-stick at the same time as upB-ing in the desired direction, I can upB at its most horizontal angle consistently! This should help me with recovering as well as catching people sometimes following a f-throw.

 

[Metmetm3t]

I just quarter circle from up to left/right.

 

[Magus420]

The way it works is it locks you into the first non-neutral angle you input during startup, so unless you go from neutral to full horizontal in a single frame you don't get max angle. C-stick really helps to get a specific angle you want.

 

[jtm94]

Will try obtaining the max angle today. I've never really tried for it or needed it, but sounds cool. I do push for extreme maximum drift on bucket stalling though, especially with less stalls now.

 

[Shockbound]

It seems that the perfect angle is 45 degrees. I can obtain it somewhat consistently, but only when I'm going left. If I go right, my thumb cannot press B and C-right without me first needing to assume the "claw" position or to awkwardly swing my thumb around the C-stick to the B button, and swipe the side of my thumb across it just before I actually press it.

Is there a less awkward way to do this?

 

[cursdpawwa]

It seems that the perfect angle is 45 degrees. I can obtain it somewhat consistently, but only when I'm going left. If I go right, my thumb cannot press B and C-right without me first needing to assume the "claw" position or to awkwardly swing my thumb around the C-stick to the B button, and swipe the side of my thumb across it just before I actually press it.

Is there a less awkward way to do this?

I'm already used to that hand position when performing DACUS, so it's not really a problem for me.

 

[Revvy]

Can we discuss some bread and butter combos?

3.5 came out and after playing everyone briefly G&W sorta became my new main. I was inexperienced with him before, so now I am just discovering all the advanced stuff. What are some of your go-to combos for GW?

 

[jtm94]

on mid weights and average fallers SHFFL bair into fair at moderate to high %s to KO.
On faster fallers and heavies bair can go into grab at most percents.

Uthrow into uair into UpB into dair is pretty good against most of the cast, BUT it is very % and MU intensive. It comes easier with experience.

 

[Revvy]

on mid weights and average fallers SHFFL bair into fair at moderate to high %s to KO.
On faster fallers and heavies bair can go into grab at most percents.

Uthrow into uair into UpB into dair is pretty good against most of the cast, BUT it is very % and MU intensive. It comes easier with experience.

Oh, certainly with the SHFFL bair and fairs, I learned that is a good approach against anyone who lacks spacing. However people with good wave dashing and dash dancing are pretty good about spacing out the fair, the bair is safer. I was wondering about uair approaches since you can uair or 2xuair SHFFL or waveland. Maybe not wondering, but trying to incorporate it into combos more.

On the topic about u-throw:
I've noticed it is super easy to start combos on fast-fallers with u-throw > u-tilt or uair. UpB seems to be extremely versatile when it comes to continuing combos.

 

[Shockbound]

The idea of go-to combos doesn't really fit the playstyle of G&W like it can for other characters, where literally everything they do has a name of some sort. At least in my eyes, anyways.

That doesn't mean he isn't a combo oriented character, though. G&W combos are extremely diverse thanks to his Up-B, and as such feel rather free form. Such combo fluidity stems from how many different uses all of his moves have, and the role they play in keeping the combo going. His combos aren't always the same due to stage layout, opponent's character, and of course the incredible mix-up option that is Judge. Even when the stage and opponent remain the same, specific combos still can't be relied on due to how weird it is to DI his throw, since they all look the same. Bacon trajectories are pseudo-random, but recognizing how you can use every last scrap of meat to start a combo is vital to keeping the opponent dazed, tumbling, and utterly confused.

Good luck wavelanding Up-Air. It has a separate attack for when G&W hits the ground that it's always going to use regardless of how you L-cancel it, so you'll need to time both puffs perfectly so that you have enough frames to waveland with. Up-Air's use as an approach is limited to when the opponent is on a soft platform above you, and is otherwise used to extend a combo or punish an opponent's whiffed move from above into a F-Air or N-Air. Personally I think panslam, B-Air, F-Air flub, D-Air and D-Tilt are much safer to use and offer far more reliable results. If D-Tilt will send too far, use D-Air. If that still sends too far then B-Air will fit pretty much everything else, with the small gaps being filled by F-Air flub and panslam.

I suppose you could try using it when you're sure that some bacon is going to end up stunning, but that really doesn't accomplish anything that a grab couldn't already do better. Using it to mix stuff up a little is always good, but still not usually the best option. Besides, if you really wanted to mix stuff up a little (or a lot) you'd just whack 'em with Judge.

 

[jtm94]

Uair is extremely easy to waveland. You can act incredibly fast out of it. When my opponent is on a platform above me I either do SH nair, rising uair FF to get both hits on shield, rising dair FF same thing, or just UpB through them and hope they drop, but if not I'm safe. Bacon harassment is pretty good against platformed opponents.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I have my first tournament later today (Australian time) and am pretty excited to bring out my G&W.

Wish me luck guys!

 

[jtm94]

You got this. May the force be with you.
Practice landing 9s.

 

[shapular]

You got this. May the force be with you.
Practice landing 9s.

I got 3 9's on a guy in one game at the last tournament I went to.

 

[jtm94]

I got 3 9's on a guy in one game at the last tournament I went to.

So... you won??

Dakpo was really trying harder than I've ever seen at today's Infinity and Beyond 33.... If every Game and Watch doesn't watch his sets from today then you don't want to improve. His work deserves to be appreciated.

UpB into fastfall bacon to extend combos and maintain advantage was awesome. He was SO close to defeating Sethlon, I really believe he can do it at the rate he's progressing. One thing at a time, but he's getting closer to national level, we all need to represent GnW adequately across the globe.

I really need to start getting UpB without expending my double jump, I've been struggling lately.

 

[Juushichi]

I didn't watch that set yet, but I'm going to now that I heard that. Dakpo, if you want critique at all I'll try to sit down and talk to you (or examine it on the boards).

There are some budding GnW's in Columbus that I'm trying to teach.

Actually, just watched the Sethlon LF set @ Dakpo .

You played absolutely fantastic, I thought.
Things I loved:
DACUS/D-Tilt whiff punishes!!!
Combo string choices!!
Recovery and returning from juggle state choices!
Platform bait/movement/play!

There was one big thing I noticed that you might want to work on:
- Shield DI + WD OoS vs Roy FSmash on block: I'm not entirely sure if he staggered them to catch you off guard, but especially in games 1 and 2, he got away with this a lot. I think you also held away so you could disengage, but I think that this left a lot of damage on the table for you vs grab/dtilt conversions.

Small things I noticed you might want to work on:
- Hard KD extensions. There were a few times in the set that you got the knockdown, but I didn't really ever see you get long strings off of it.
- Ledge play. Specifically, some choices on punishing Sethlon attempting to go to or get off of the ledge with you on it. GnW has it a bit tough because it's difficult for him to cover multiple options, but I think you could watch this set and probably pick up on some different ways to stop him here. I loved the double bacon -> low fair coverage in one of the games for a KO.

 

[jtm94]

WD oos vs Marth and Roy is AMAZING. It nets you a a free jab, dtilt, or grab against fsmash on shield. I believe it works better vs Roy because his fsmash is slower, and at absolute max range fsmash it does not quite work against Marth even with Shield DI.

Edgeguarding Roy is hard because his UpB is completely non-interactive. It's made to work and beat out everything, and it lingers so roll on needs to be very precise. If he goes straight vertical max range dtilt can beat it. Another option is to shield it if he goes high, drop shield and dtilt as he lingers in the air. I saw you keep going for RAR FF to edge, but Sethlon survival DIs incredibly well so he can UpB and recover before you make it to him and you would get beat out. Sadly there isn't much you can do in those scenarios besides try to edgeguard from on stage. If you can get to the edge note how Lunchables was edgeguarding Roy. GnW doesn't have a tether, but planking to refresh invincibility is the key to rolling on. Going deep to hit him will only work if he needs to use his double jump, otherwise GnW gets beat out every time.

How do you feel about the chaingrab against Roy? Did it help? It seemed like you went hard for it out the gate, but overall just stopped using it?

 

[Paper Maribro]

Well it was Bo3 and Swiss round robin and I went 3-3. Not bad, but I can't say I was against the best of the competition there. My 6 matches were

1. Lost 2-0 to my friends Kirby. First game was close but I counterpicked Dreamland and I dont think thats a great stage for this MU
2. Lost 2-0 to a Snake. First game was close but then I counterpicked Yoshis Melee and got pretty badly beaten.
3. Beat a Snake/Toon Link 2-0. Four stocked him first game and kinda felt bad because it was clear he was fairly new
4. Beat a Falco 2-1. First game was pretty easy won by 3-stocks, he won the 2nd game in a close margin. Last game went down to last stock 100%. Felt great to win a tight match.
5. Beat an Ivysaur 2-1. First game, again, was pretty easy going. Lost the second game just, again. And again the last gme was tight. Real nailbiter that went down to last stock 100% each, sealed with a d-smash.
6. Lost to a Zelda 2-0. First match was close and then I counterpicked Yoshis Melee and got completely wrecked.

Things I have learnt from my first tourney

1. CC Dtilt is amazing and Dtilt in general is the best move ever. Its a finisher on Floaties, its a combo starter and it edgeguards.
   
2. Nair is amazing and I cannot believe I have been missing out on it for so long. I finally understand how to land it and combo it with Up-b. Feels so satisfying to stage spike edgeguard with nair.

Things I need to improve on

1. SHFFLing, I dont
2. Wavedashing, I cant
3. Mixups, I think the reason why two of my sets were so close is because people learnt my stuff so quickly
4. COUNTERPICKING STAGES. I literally had no idea what I was doing when counterpicking and probably didnt help myself at all by counterpicking dumb stages.

I will watch Dakpos sets later for some more info on how to G&W like a pro. At the very least, I had a lot of fun bringing out my Game and Watch in a proper tournament and look forward to doing so in the future.

 

[Hamman88]

Actually, just watched the Sethlon LF set @@Dakpo.

can someone link me the match, cant seem to locate it

 

[shapular]

can someone link me the match, cant seem to locate it

http://www.twitch.tv/TourneyLocator/b/595866253?t=28m38s

 

[Metmetm3t]

http://www.twitch.tv/TourneyLocator/b/595866253?t=28m38s

I have comments to make about this set. But I'll wait for the youtube because twitch highlights constantly drop frames when I watch them.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh and if you guys want more roy vs gnw footage from dakpo besides sethlon, I played another roy game vs him at IaB
2-0 game 1 with tink, game 2 with roy

 

[Hamman88]

Wowow that was some awesome **** dakpo, them bacon games are too good.

My one comment on the match, and I only say this because my sparring partner is a roy main, if you end up edgeguarding when they and have alot of time just standing at the edge waiting to get hit with his up+b, what works is either plank a few times and hope you can get the rollon, (which is hard to time) which dosent work if they land on stage, but what i find works against roy sometimes, is as hes spamming side b to get back to the stage, when hes gotten about half way back, jump offstage, and bucketstall turnaround, and try to hit roy in the back with a fair or judge (style points) as he up+b's, its kinda trick to space esp when roy can mix it up with an earlier up+b, but ive come to use it as my one of my better roy edgeguards, workeng fairly frequently.
that's just my two cents.

good **** though

 

[jtm94]

Sethlon doesn't use sideb really. He just DIs the correct way, lives and UpBs through everything. SideB only makes you prone and is usually to cover poorer survival DI when you end up going too far. Sethlon even has talked about how he doesn't use his double jump. It's good because Roy's UpB is noninteractive so cutting out interaction points is cutting weak points.

Lunchables got him so well with tether reel in because it's easier to time than planking, but he did both. If he goes on stage you can ledgehop to punish. You can even just invincible dair off ledge to beat out the recovery.

The problem with the Dakpo vs Sethlon matches weren't that Dakpo wasn't edgeguarding well, but how the situation was set up. Dakpo would recover and Sethlon would respect his recovery for some reason, a mistake, but nonetheless Dakpo would UpB close then double jump fair to punish a whiffed edgeguard and then Sethlon went ACCROSS the stage ending up pretty close to the edge. That happened quite a few times on FD and unfortunately if you just can't get there in time there's not much you can do.

I'm almost positive that GnW's perfect wavedash is faster than his run speed. SH dash jump into perfect waveland is much faster for sure as it covers battlefield in a single jump vs 2 seconds of running. I'm gonna work on the perfect waveland into dtilt.

 

[shapular]

Sethlon doesn't use sideb really. He just DIs the correct way, lives and UpBs through everything. SideB only makes you prone and is usually to cover poorer survival DI when you end up going too far. Sethlon even has talked about how he doesn't use his double jump. It's good because Roy's UpB is noninteractive so cutting out interaction points is cutting weak points.

Lunchables got him so well with tether reel in because it's easier to time than planking, but he did both. If he goes on stage you can ledgehop to punish. You can even just invincible dair off ledge to beat out the recovery.

The problem with the Dakpo vs Sethlon matches weren't that Dakpo wasn't edgeguarding well, but how the situation was set up. Dakpo would recover and Sethlon would respect his recovery for some reason, a mistake, but nonetheless Dakpo would UpB close then double jump fair to punish a whiffed edgeguard and then Sethlon went ACCROSS the stage ending up pretty close to the edge. That happened quite a few times on FD and unfortunately if you just can't get there in time there's not much you can do.

I'm almost positive that GnW's perfect wavedash is faster than his run speed. SH dash jump into perfect waveland is much faster for sure as it covers battlefield in a single jump vs 2 seconds of running. I'm gonna work on the perfect waveland into dtilt.

I don't think you even need to wavedash perfectly to be faster than run. I always use it when I'm trying to get across the stage in a hurry.

 

[Dakpo]

You guys are so awesome Your encouragement makes me want to get even get better. I ended up taking 3rd in that tournament and 1st in doubles (because me and lunchables are an unstoppable team).
Fun Fact: won a smash 4 tournament yesterday with Zss, woot!

I went back and watched a lot of what you guys were talking about. I have a lot more ideas now on how to edgeguard Roy. I was thinking of some tricky things like baiting his Up B then airdodging through it and grabbing the ledge. Not sure how well that would work, but just trying new things. I'm still so bad with the new changes to GnW, but Ill definitely get used to them with time. So far I love the balance changes to other characters though

 

[Paper Maribro]

You guys are so awesome Your encouragement makes me want to get even get better. I ended up taking 3rd in that tournament and 1st in doubles (because me and lunchables are an unstoppable team).
Fun Fact: won a smash 4 tournament yesterday with Zss, woot!

I went back and watched a lot of what you guys were talking about. I have a lot more ideas now on how to edgeguard Roy. I was thinking of some tricky things like baiting his Up B then airdodging through it and grabbing the ledge. Not sure how well that would work, but just trying new things. I'm still so bad with the new changes to GnW, but Ill definitely get used to them with time. So far I love the balance changes to other characters though

I watched the Roy set and tbh, you actually make it look winnable when playing it feels really like it really isnt. Keep up the good work man, I am keen to see how far you can develop this character and hopefully I can pick up some of the awesome stuff you do.

 

[jtm94]

I'm really glad Dakpo. You really deserve to be happy about your success with the character. We need to put in some work too, it shouldn't be all on you.

I finally got to go to a weekly and I played only GnW all day. I am determined to make him work against everyone.

Sheik is difficult, but nerves got to me. She can be edgeguarded hard though.

I got knocked out by.... a Roy. He was actually pretty decent. I have much potential, I need to master nerves.
So what I was working on... SH fast fall single bacon is REALLY useful. I was getting hit confirms into things and it was much better than anticipated. UpB into fastfall DownB was doing some work to maintain position. The chaingrab was definitely real and I used it every time I grabbed him. It really isn't busted, but it does break their spirit and it helped me make a 2 stock comeback.

Edgeguarding fastfallers is really easy. I love facing them when they don't play PM often because the MUs are very free.

I honestly don't have much else to elaborate on, I just need to get better. Bair is amazing. Bair to whatever is amazing. Throws are god.

 

[shapular]

I wouldn't mind the limit on sausages if the counter actually worked properly. Instead of "you can only have two big sausages out at one time", it turns into "if you have two sausages out, you have to stop throwing sausages for like a whole second because if you don't it'll just be all Mini-Meats™ even when the big sausages disappear." It's really annoying.

By the way, what difference does having a jab 2 make?

 

[Juushichi]

I used GnW once last weekend to 2-0 another GnW and then I used him in a $5 MM vs Carls Wario. I had been down 0-2 playing Mario, both one stock losses and facing a set loss I played GnW on FoD. I won, then won the rest of the set playing Sheik.

I still got it, I guess.

 

[jtm94]

I wouldn't mind the limit on sausages if the counter actually worked properly. Instead of "you can only have two big sausages out at one time", it turns into "if you have two sausages out, you have to stop throwing sausages for like a whole second because if you don't it'll just be all Mini-Meats™ even when the big sausages disappear." It's really annoying.

By the way, what difference does having a jab 2 make?

Yeah it is a little wonky. I know for sure there is only 1 on screen, but I still get Mini Meat if I push it.

Jab 2 means you can jab twice without going directly into rapid jab. Now I don't have to stagger my Jab 1 over and over I can Jab>Jab>jab cancel>Jab>Jab. I love jab. I SHFFL dair on shield >jab>jab>dtilt catches a lot of people. Or I just jab appraoches into grab, but sometimes they try to act after the first jab and I jab again.

@Juushichi
Sheik covers GnW MUs good.
I need more people to Sheik because my friends hate her.... Oh and they hate GnW I get told the character is bull**** on a regular basis. Really starting to get sick of putting time into Zelda for her to get called that so I change to GnW(a worse character) to lose a whole bunch for many months, then finally start winning and get told he's dumb.

 

[shapular]

@Juushichi
Sheik covers GnW MUs good.
I need more people to Sheik because my friends hate her.... Oh and they hate GnW I get told the character is bull**** on a regular basis. Really starting to get sick of putting time into Zelda for her to get called that so I change to GnW(a worse character) to lose a whole bunch for many months, then finally start winning and get told he's dumb.

Feel the salt. Embrace the salt.

 

[Juushichi]

Jab stagger is legit and a lot of people get hit by the Jab 2 regrab off of techs for now.

It's a decent gimmick.

 

[jtm94]

Jab stagger is legit and a lot of people get hit by the Jab 2 regrab off of techs for now.

It's a decent gimmick.

My use of jab is so dank sometimes that I even scare myself.
I will swear jab>jab>jab>jab>dtilt is a combo sometimes.
I'll just jab dtilt jab dtilt fsmash or some weirdness and people respect it because they fear more jabs. GnW is powerful.

 

[Magus420]

Changelog says they have the same stats for some reason, but jab 1 has set knockback while jab 2 does not, so jab 2 combos better at higher damages. Jab 1-2 fsmash can start to work somewhere in the 100-150 range iirc.

 

[jtm94]

Changelog says they have the same stats for some reason, but jab 1 has set knockback while jab 2 does not, so jab 2 combos better at higher damages. Jab 1-2 fsmash can start to work somewhere in the 100-150 range iirc.

This..... This.... This changes Everything.
I need to take a seat, and practice my glorious jab combos.

 

[shapular]

Changelog says they have the same stats for some reason, but jab 1 has set knockback while jab 2 does not, so jab 2 combos better at higher damages. Jab 1-2 fsmash can start to work somewhere in the 100-150 range iirc.

O.O

...we top tier now?

Edit: Still not as good as Fox. He can jab to usmash earlier than that. I wish they'd fix that stupid character already.

 

[cursdpawwa]

It's already known that b-reversed Chef is an option to get away from an opponent in the air and back onto the ground. Now that G&W can fast fall Chef, that same option should be even more helpful. That being said, I want to ask what G&W can do when he finds himself above the opponent. When I started, falling with D-air was my only choice and I now realize that it should be done more sparingly. I think I've fallen into a habit of always double jumping right after hitstun ends but that makes landing much more difficult. I have also found minimal success with bucket stalling after hitstun to avoid the immediate juggle attempt after being launched.