Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[GeZ]

Something I've found that's kinda silly is if you catch an opponents shield with DACUS a good option usually is to DACUS again as it'll catch a lot of their options, and no one expects you to slide around like squirtle.

 

[shapular]

I don't think G&W's kill power is quite good enough for how early he dies and how bad his neutral game is. I don't necessarily think he needs to be a ton stronger, but when Fox can jab into up smash and Lucas can down throw into charged up smash, I don't think it matters that much that G&W's up smash is a little bit stronger. It'd be nice if it was a little bit faster or had super armor. Maybe the incoming recovery nerfs will help him, but it'd be nice if he had something that hit at a low angle too, maybe fair or ftilt. I'd like it if parachute was just a little bit stronger too. It'd be cool if he had some decent throws as well. You can hardly do anything out of dthrow on most characters if they techroll, and the rest of his throws are pretty much the same thing. In Brawl+ his bthrow had a decent amount of knockback at a pretty much straight horizontal angle. Maybe something like that?

 

[GeZ]

I don't think G&W's kill power is quite good enough for how early he dies and how bad his neutral game is. I don't necessarily think he needs to be a ton stronger, but when Fox can jab into up smash and Lucas can down throw into charged up smash, I don't think it matters that much that G&W's up smash is a little bit stronger. It'd be nice if it was a little bit faster or had super armor. Maybe the incoming recovery nerfs will help him, but it'd be nice if he had something that hit at a low angle too, maybe fair or ftilt. I'd like it if parachute was just a little bit stronger too. It'd be cool if he had some decent throws as well. You can hardly do anything out of dthrow on most characters if they techroll, and the rest of his throws are pretty much the same thing. In Brawl+ his bthrow had a decent amount of knockback at a pretty much straight horizontal angle. Maybe something like that?

His Usmash is fine as is. DACUS is already intense as hell, and buffing it is really unnecessary. Fair hits at a low enough angle to be fine, and the forward most part of Dtilt has a nice angle. His throw game is sweet as hell, especially Dthrow. Dthrow > read techroll > regrab/ DACUS is really good.

 

[Metmetm3t]

His Usmash is fine as is. DACUS is already intense as hell, and buffing it is really unnecessary. Fair hits at a low enough angle to be fine, and the forward most part of Dtilt has a nice angle. His throw game is sweet as hell, especially Dthrow. Dthrow > read techroll > regrab/ DACUS is really good.

Fun facts. Fair hits at Sakurai angle which is basically 45 degrees (not low or high). Dtilt only has one hitbox. What makes the angle difference is whether the opponent is airborne (Sakurai Angle) or grounded (85 degrees). In Melee G&W's up smash had invincibility on his entire head (Oh man would that be swag).

 

[GeZ]

Fun facts. Fair hits at Sakurai angle which is basically 45 degrees (not low or high). Dtilt only has one hitbox. What makes the angle difference is whether the opponent is airborne (Sakurai Angle) or grounded (85 degrees). In Melee G&W's up smash had invincibility on his entire head (Oh man would that be swag).

I get to be wrong about literally everything. Yis. Though DACUS still makes Usmash insanity.

 

[GeZ]

 

[jtm94]

How come DK gets all his Melee invincibility and more? Yet GnW gets none!
I call for mutiny.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Per limb invul is not possible in the brawl engine.

 

[GeZ]

Then just make GnW's Usmash fully invincible. Perfectly balanced, no problem.

 

[shapular]

No matter what you do, G&W still won't be as broken as Mewtwo or Lucas or any of M2K's other top six broken characters.

 

[dettadeus]

No matter what you do, G&W still won't be as broken as Mewtwo or Lucas or any of M2K's other top six broken characters.

idk, if the first hammer in the game was always a 9 and his usmash killed bowser at 20% with no other changes, i think he'd be the best char in the game

 

[shapular]

idk, if the first hammer in the game was always a 9 and his usmash killed bowser at 20% with no other changes, i think he'd be the best char in the game

PUT THIS MAN IN PMBR. THESE ARE BRILLIANT IDEAS. A+++++ WOULD READ AGAIN.

 

[Dakpo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhX_7HVfVY&list=UUuBhMqosgW-ECZjJZ9pv0Dg

Me playing against k9 and M2k.

note: I meant to Fsmash M2K at the end there. I choked

 

[jtm94]

Dakpo all you had to do was Ftilt! or dtilt! or fsmash! Where were you going?!?!
I do kind of like that GnW is going in and then he's just like peace out my work is done...

If a character is doing well it really is true people will complain. The chat was like GnW is ridiculous, his jab is sooo fast. Get out of here with that.

I really wasn't expecting Strong Bad to handle Lunchables like that.... sad ending.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo all you had to do was Ftilt! or dtilt! or fsmash! Where were you going?!?!
I do kind of like that GnW is going in and then he's just like peace out my work is done...

If a character is doing well it really is true people will complain. The chat was like GnW is ridiculous, his jab is sooo fast. Get out of here with that.

I really wasn't expecting Strong Bad to handle Lunchables like that.... sad ending.

lol trust me, I know how easily I could have killed him.

 

[jtm94]

As long as you know c:
People would be saying GnW is broken though so maybe blessing in disguise.

 

[shapular]

Dakpo, in a lot of the matches you were going for weird edgeguards. I was like, "Dakpo, what are you doing?! Just do this!" ;.;

 

[Deleted member]

I really wasn't expecting Strong Bad to handle Lunchables like that.... sad ending.

In crews? Yeah lol

then we went home and I ****ed him up in dev build

(With geno ofc)

 

[shapular]

In crews? Yeah lol

then we went home and I ****ed him up in dev build

(With geno ofc)

GENO CONFIRMED.

How did the rest of that crew battle go? I pretty much only watched top 6 and the matches that Dakpo was in.

 

[Deleted member]

the world won with 3 stocks.

They sent me in and said "Hey Lunchables, you have to take 7 stocks! 3 from neon and 4 from strong bad!"
I took all of neons and 1 of strong bads, I could only get 4

 

[shapular]

the world won with 3 stocks.

They sent me in and said "Hey Lunchables, you have to take 7 stocks! 3 from neon and 4 from strong bad!"
I took all of neons and 1 of strong bads, I could only get 4

Dude, I saw you with the Lunchables one time. Your problem is you had the little kid Lunchables. You need the big kid one to be able to take seven stocks.

 

[Hamman88]

Wow Impresive stuff Dakpo.

Any tips on using neutral b in the neutral game? I noticed you had quite an impressive waterfall of bacon going with some nice b-reversed spam there. Any other tips on zoning and that sort of stuff?

 

[shapular]

With a bunch of characters getting new costumes for 3.5, is G&W getting any new colors or anything? I know some of you are in PMBR, anybody care to spill the beans?

How many of you guys main G&W in Melee and/or Brawl? How does your experience in those games affect the way you play PM G&W, and how does PM affect the way you play him in your original game? From what I've seen on here, that seems to be most of you. I've mained him since I unlocked him in Melee in 2005, and I stuck with him after he got way better in Brawl. I dropped him in Melee in favor of Puff/Falco a few months ago but I've been playing him again against some worse players recently. I think I try to use bair a lot in PM like I do in Brawl, but it doesn't work as well. I used to automatically go for dthrow every time in PM since it's easily his best throw in Brawl, but I've tried to mix in his other throws recently. I probably don't use dtilt as much as I should for starting combos and killing since I'm not used to its upward knockback. I didn't play much Brawl for a few months after 3.02 came out so picking up Brawl G&W again was weird. I kept trying to up B into aerials and I forgot how to edgeguard. I don't think playing PM G&W has particularly helped my Brawl G&W, but I've definitely improved in general which has helped. On the other hand, Brawl and PM G&W have definitely helped my Melee G&W. I'm more confident about hitting the dsmash sweetspot and I use bair a lot more. I used to avoid both of those moves when playing Melee.

 

[GeZ]

I think that Melee GnW's playstyle and mentality match up with P:M GnW's a lot more than Brawl.

Though I'm of the opinion that Brawl is a mess, so I might be biased? Just physics wise it makes the transition and tool usage and application more sensical.

 

[shapular]

I think you can definitely play PM G&W like Melee G&W, but you can't really play Melee G&W like PM G&W.

 

[Crezyte]

No you def can't play PM GnW like Melee GnW. PM characters are too good for that restrictive play. You NEED to do PM specific stuff to be a successful GnW in PM.

 

[GeZ]

No you def can't play PM GnW like Melee GnW. PM characters are too good for that restrictive play. You NEED to do PM specific stuff to be a successful GnW in PM.

mentality wise it fits though. Both want to be very aggressive. It's not about exactly matching play, just matching thought processes.

 

[Crezyte]

If you want to play aggro, that's not playing a melee watch. Its just playing an aggro watch -.- Matching melee's thought process is: "If i don't full jump, I have an ass ton of lag, I can't shield ever, I can't reliably bacon zone, and I'm going to worry my ass of about CCing". Not to mention that D-throw is completely different in PM (IMO worse in PM) and used to be a setup for a good punish which you literally can't do anymore.

That said, I'd like to share that d-throw tech chases are insanely easy to follow up on because everyone tech rolls it if they can tech it at all and they will do so 100% of the time.

 

[GeZ]

Yo. Crezyte. Thought processes in the abstract more. That being, don't get hit, don't shield too much, abuse good movement, and be careful with CC and being in the air.

 

[Crezyte]

Well thats just smash thought process... right?

 

[GeZ]

Well thats just smash thought process... right?

Some characters perfer the air. Some trade moves well and don't mind taking some hits. Some have really good shields so it's not that bad to use. Some don't want to use movement over defensive options.

 

[Crezyte]

I'll have to agree with you on that...

 

[shapular]

No you def can't play PM GnW like Melee GnW. PM characters are too good for that restrictive play. You NEED to do PM specific stuff to be a successful GnW in PM.

Of course. I'm not saying it's the best idea. I'm just saying it's possible.

 

[jtm94]

I wish fair wasn't so incredibly unsafe. I find it very underwhelming to land unless off stage. Or at least dair to be made to match the disjoint of the key more to make it more likely to shield poke.

 

[Artimus]

GW F-air has got to be the easiest move to shield grab. Not to mention if you miss your l-cancel youre stuck on the ground with a no hitbox box box and get hamslapped.

 

[shapular]

GW F-air has got to be the easiest move to shield grab. Not to mention if you miss your l-cancel youre stuck on the ground with a no hitbox box box and get hamslapped.

True story. It doesn't have a whole lot of shieldstun or pushback. You just gotta hit with it

I'm actually fine with G&W having unsafe approaches (even though I don't know how it fits a character who has bad defense), but I want approaches to be more unsafe in general. Fox/Falco drillshine is the dumbest thing ever. I guess that's just the Brawl player in me.

Jtm, you changed your PM main to G&W! Good man! Ironically, I've started playing Zelda in PM.

 

[jtm94]

I do like well designed characters, but I don't like that GnW has difficulty approaching, bad MUs, terrible combo weight, but some ability to go in and KO and a solid recovery, though he is quite light. He also lacks pressure outside of bair imo. For sure he has a solid punish game, but what character doesn't have a solid punish game in here? It bothers me that DI can escape most of GnW combos entirely even if you read DI, and I've been having people mash out of the dair landing hitstun that used to seem like a free aerial or hammer... I still like going in with nonsense though, I can convert bairs>dash attack>uair>shenanigans. Sadly now that the people I play can always tech downthrow, I can't get any follow ups on it if they hold shield, unless they are using someone with a bad tech roll. DACUS can get them and is plus on shield yes? I've seen the double DACUS shield break.

GnW is one of the characters I still enjoy playing heavily. I have a Zelda but I can't tell if I'm decent or if Zelda is fraudulent. To be honest I really enjoy GnW because he's bad so my friends can't complain about him. I can only handle people complaining about Zelda so much before I snap. My other solid PM characters are Sheik and Diddy Kong. I'm aspiring to get decent with Toon Link and Ness. If I played in tourney I would probably use Mario just because he gets free wins.

 

[shapular]

Ha, I played a Lucas main yesterday that I always beat (although it's been closer recently), and I beat him worse than I usually do. Then he switched to Mario and started spamming pills to counter my Din's camping, but I still played very patiently and the game lasted almost 7 minutes. It made him mad, but I enjoyed it. Afterwards he was complaining that "all Zeldas are the same" and that her playstyle is "braindead". You just have to enjoy the salt. Zelda is a very good character, but she's not OP compared to some of the broken characters in the game. Maybe it's just that G&W has a good matchup against her, but I think people mainly complain because they don't know how to play against her. It's a hard matchup to learn, but once you do it's not that hard to play.

 

[Hamman88]

Any thoughts on using the initial hit of dash attack as an edgeguarding tool?
Iv'e started to notice its decently effective against fox/falco's side+b recovery, sending them at a lower angle that forces them to firefox, and allowing for easy followup stagespikes with (insert aerial here).
not as effective against much of the other cast though

edit it seems that you dont always need the initial hit, its just a matter of the tricky timing

 

[shapular]

I don't know about the initial hit, but since Brawl (I don't know if it works in Melee) I've liked using dash attack to stage spike people hanging on the ledge. It's a little easier in PM since you can hit them even before they grab the ledge. In Brawl you have to count on them hanging on the ledge too long.