Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[jtm94]

I don't even think GnW beats Zelda tbh. Dtilt KOs her early, but her kick KOs him earlier. That coupled with her superior options oos I would say she wins.

Zelda loses to Mario in his current form. She has no real out to fireballs when used effectively, you force her options and then punish accordingly. The problem is that people think Zelda is a good camping character when she isn't. Dins is a very bad strategy to rely on for most of her MUs, even more so against fast characters. She benefits very strongly from taking good stage positioning and forcing the opponent to deal with you to land your attacks. That is kind of how I play GnW, I just dash dance and react to baited attacks and punish as hard as I can. The difficult thing for GnW is that if an opponent has an obnoxious projectile, fireballs for example, it forces him to take the initiative and then Mario can then just KO GnW off of some obnoxious combo string.

I've been using dash attack at the edge for some time. It stays out for a while and quite low below the edge. Sadly it is terrible as an approach, but fortunately dash grab is safe on shield and I love it.

 

[shapular]

I disagree about the G&W vs. Zelda matchup. I think G&W deals with Zelda's main zoning options pretty well. Bucket takes care of Din's, and his disjointed lingering hitboxes take care of teledash. Zelda has a decent close-up game, but G&W's is better.

Weird, I play a pretty aggressive G&W (at least, I think it is. other people say I play patient. maybe aggressive by Brawl standards?) and I think Zelda is a pretty good camping, or at least zoning, character. She can't pester you with damaging projectiles like Link or Samus can, but she can put Din's around her and her opponent, and if they can't take care of those, she can make them go where she wants them for a punish. The problem, of course, is people who know how to take care of Din's, but even then she can sometimes set up more while the other ones are being destroyed. Up smash and Nayru's are great quick moves I like to use to push my opponents back out or set them up for follow-ups when they get in. Of course, you know Zelda better than me so I'm sure you can tell me why I'm wrong.

I've been trying to get myself to boost grab more as an option select, but I always forget and when I remember I do it in a stupid predictable way.

 

[jtm94]

Zelda isn't optimally played using dins though, that's just asking for GnW to OHKO her. If she gets hit for teledashing then she did it predictably. That isn't a MU thing it's a player thing. I've spoken with Zelda extensively with decent Melee Zelda players and in their opinion the move is gimmicky at best and only good against bads. Of course it does shine in some areas, such as helping her get to the ground, and especially recovering where a giant dins can protect the entire ledge. I really enjoy seeing dins used, but in my findings it is not optimal. If your opponent chooses to respect them as an actual threat that is when they become easily exploitable. Playing against GnW I would never recommend using dins EVER. When playing Zhime I was able to punish him strongly for his flagrant use of dins. You can tell when they place a dins that is a bait, you can tell if they can punish you for absorbing a dins or not. I'm willing to continue debating this though, maybe we can play Zelda vs GnW some time.

Also the only things that have changed Zelda's playstyle from Melee are teledashing and dins. Nayru's makes her seem more defensive, but taking the defense is a big mistake as Zelda. As Cosmo has said of Zelda in melee she loses to any campy character because she has no options to deal with it, if your opponent chooses to play patiently you will slowly lose. Wait for her to commit to anything then hit her hard. I would put the MU around even, I don't think Zelda beats GnW. The MU is painful imo because GnW can wait out Zelda, she can't dins because if she does she dies, but Zelda can also wait out GnW and punish approaches. It turns into a bait fest, but I know a few people who absolutely love games like that.


Boost grab is pretty good in any situation, it can escape an opponents CC into grab, avoids shield grabs. It just doesn't combo if you straight up hit them because the end lag of the grab.

 

[howbadisbad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLSI6WoQ2WU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjitVVQHHa8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzOOJXwYiBI

Can someone help me not suck at G&W? (and Toon Link)

From watching myself it seems I get rekt in neutral/approaching

 

[shapular]

I'm willing to continue debating this though, maybe we can play Zelda vs GnW some time.

Wifi? LET'S GO! (or netplay if that's your thing?)

Also the only things that have changed Zelda's playstyle from Melee are teledashing and dins. Nayru's makes her seem more defensive, but taking the defense is a big mistake as Zelda. As Cosmo has said of Zelda in melee she loses to any campy character because she has no options to deal with it, if your opponent chooses to play patiently you will slowly lose. Wait for her to commit to anything then hit her hard. I would put the MU around even, I don't think Zelda beats GnW. The MU is painful imo because GnW can wait out Zelda, she can't dins because if she does she dies, but Zelda can also wait out GnW and punish approaches. It turns into a bait fest, but I know a few people who absolutely love games like that.

I know absolutely nothing about Melee Zelda, but I play her in Brawl. I try to use her in PM like I do in Brawl, plus the good PM things. It's worked well enough so far, but the people I've played are probably unfamiliar with Zelda.

Boost grab is pretty good in any situation, it can escape an opponents CC into grab, avoids shield grabs. It just doesn't combo if you straight up hit them because the end lag of the grab.

Yeah, it doesn't combo (well, it CAN against some characters at very specific percents but I have no idea what those are) but it seems safe enough on hit, depending on percent. If you hit with the dash attack, your opponent is probably getting knocked far enough away to where they can punish you. If you hit shield, then you grab them and get free whatever. The main problem is that you have to start it very late, which can lead to getting punished before you even get the attack out. And also actually thinking to use it smartly in battle ._. Speaking of crouch cancelling... I HATE crouch cancelling. Such a dumb mechanic.

 

[shapular]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLSI6WoQ2WU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjitVVQHHa8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzOOJXwYiBI

Can someone help me not suck at G&W? (and Toon Link)

From watching myself it seems I get rekt in neutral/approaching

First off, use the video thread for this.

Second, I don't feel like writing a paragraph so I'm going to give my critique in list form:
1. Learn to L-cancel and SHFFL! This is crucial to playing G&W well.
2. Use better edgeguards on stage. Don't just fsmash every time. If your opponent knows it's coming it'll be easy to avoid. Try safer but effective options like dtilt and ftilt. Save the fsmash for reading a getup.
3. Use short hop double bacon more. But if it's not working, like against that ZSS, then stop.
4. Don't be afraid to bucket ZSS's stun gun. If she comes after you while you're bucketing, release it early.
5. Vary your approach. You use dair way too much and it's predictable. There are ways to use dair safely (ask me about this if you don't know), but most of the time you don't use them. Use fair and bair more. Bair is generally safer.
6. Space your approaches better. This, combined with SHFFLing and varying your approaches, will make you a lot harder to punish.
7. Learn your up B combos. You need these to be a good G&W.
8. If ZSS dairs on your shield, jump OoS and use the appropriate aerial for where she ends up, whether it's fair, uair, or bair. Nair will be too slow, and dair would be hard to land properly along with being slow. This also applies to Wario and other characters who bounce off your shield.
9. Your edgeguarding of Marth is poor. The best thing to do is stay on stage and use dtilt. I think you can crouch cancel his up B if it hits you through the stage. You can also jump behind him and fair or nair, or even dair. His up B only hits you in front so it's safe.
10. When your opponent is at a high percent, use fair more instead of nair to try to kill. Fair is much faster and has more range.
11. Mash out of grabs. I'm bad at this too, but there's no reason your opponent should get 23% just from pummels on one grab at any percent.
12. Learn to sweetspot your recovery. This takes a bit of practice, but it will make your recovery harder to punish.

 

[jtm94]

I can't wifi or Netplay sadly. My internet has an extremely terrible ping, and unfortunately my computer can barely handle single player PM. I know people with boss computers, I'll try to set up a Netplay day.

I've talked to Umbreon the best Melee Zelda extensively on the topic. In his opinion dins is never useful, but I take that with a grain of salt. A lot of the new PM Zeldas think that because Zhime uses dins you must use them as well. Truth be told I feel as though if he played less flashy he would beat most top players.

Gattling combo is pretty good because if they CC you just fly behind them and they usually can't react to it.

 

[shapular]

I don't think Zhime is nearly as good as he thinks he is, fwiw. I also haven't watched a lot of PM Zelda. I pretty much use her my own way.

 

[jtm94]

He's a really nice guy. He doesn't think too highly of himself either, but he can go toe-to-toe with Mango and that's respectable. There aren't many amazing PM Zelda's to emulate right now, watching play is a really good way to get better though.

 

[shapular]

I was just talking to him last week and he says he thinks he's top 10 in PM. I'd call that thinking highly of himself. Mango doesn't even play PM.

 

[jtm94]

Oh dang. He's that good though. And Mango doesn't have to play PM though, he's Mango and all his fundamentals still carry over to his character.

 

[shapular]

Oh dang. He's that good though. And Mango doesn't have to play PM though, he's Mango and all his fundamentals still carry over to his character.

Mango got 33rd at SKTAR 3 and 17th at CEO. There's a lot more to the game than just being able to play Fox.

 

[howbadisbad]

First off, use the video thread for this.

5. Vary your approach. You use dair way too much and it's predictable. There are ways to use dair safely (ask me about this if you don't know), but most of the time you don't use them. Use fair and bair more. Bair is generally safer.

7. Learn your up B combos. You need these to be a good G&W.

9. Your edgeguarding of Marth is poor. The best thing to do is stay on stage and use dtilt. I think you can crouch cancel his up B if it

Can you elaborate on the following points? Especially why jump off nair is a bad edgeguard and how to make dair safe.

 

[jtm94]

For sure he doesn't play Project M, but all smash fundamentals carry. If he had the MU knowledge he would be able to do much better.

Can you elaborate on the following points? Especially why jump off nair is a bad edgeguard and how to make dair safe.

Jump off nair is not a bad edgeguard, but it is slower and harder to land. When you go for it it is very apparent as to what you are doing, when you could just jump off fair much faster with less risk.
Dair is generally an unsafe move imo, not as much as fair though. It has a very nonrewarding hitbox, the meteor hitbox is very good offstage if you are comfortable landing it, and a really obscure landing hitbox that can sometimes pop them up and combo into anything. On shield I believe the landing hitbox makes it neutral on shield, so if you l-cancel and then immediately UpB you can generally get away before the opponent can grab you. The same goes for bair on shield into UpB.

 

[shapular]

5. There are basically four ways to dair safely:
1) Drift away right when you hit their shield (this isn't necessary if you hit them). If you do it well enough, they won't be able to grab you, although it probably doesn't work on people with longer grab ranges like Marth or Samus.
2) Cross them up and land behind them. They won't be able to grab you (unless they get one of those dumb Melee butt grabs), although depending on the character they may be able to short hop bair or dair or something.
3) Fastfall, L-cancel, and up B as soon as possible. Apparently if you do this frame-perfect, it can't be shieldgrabbed.
4) Time your dair so that it ends just before you land. This requires knowledge of exactly how long your dair lasts and a good sense of timing for how long it will take you to land.

7. The best thing I can say about this is to watch Nintendude's sets from Civil War 6. You can find them on Youtube. Someone should write a guide on this. I'd do it, but I'm out of practice and I'm not sure if I could do it properly even if I was. It's very character and percent dependent, but you can usually pick the right follow-up on reaction. Basically, you up B into them (from the air or ground), and then there are several things you can do from there. If they're below you, fastfall. If they're even with you, don't do anything. If they're above you, jump, unless they're a fastfaller and they're only a little above you, in which case you do nothing. Now that you're in position, do whatever aerial is appropriate. If you still have your jump and they're right above you, you can uair and jump into nair, fair, or dair. If they're at a high enough percent to kill, use nair or fair depending on how far away they are. If you can hit them with the meteor part of dair, you can knock them into the ground for follow-ups. You can even do two dairs before landing if you're high enough. If they're not quite at kill percent and you're feeling lucky, go for side B. It just takes a lot of practice to be able to pick the right choice consistently.

8. Jump off nair isn't really a bad edgeguard, but if Marth is close enough to up B he'll just attack right through you. If he's far enough away, jump off nair is fine, although fair may be even better since it's faster and has longer range, and you don't need to knock Marth very far to make him unable to come back. If he's low, you can also try to hit him with the end of fair so it disrupts him just long enough and you still have room to recover. Jump off nair is good or even preferred against a lot of characters, but there are better things to use against Marth.

 

[Artimus]

Zelda is free for GW if she uses Dins a lot, it gets a lot harder if she is playing patient with her neutrals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwOPVwapZxY

I did okay, but lost my cool late in both games. I see all my mistakes, but I did have a broken wrist and it was starting to hurt. No johns though, I got out played.

 

[shapular]

Dude, there are other good G&Ws in Dallas besides Dakpo? I'm super impressed. You have some amazing movement and just really good everything in general.

 

[jtm94]

Zelda is free for GW if she uses Dins a lot, it gets a lot harder if she is playing patient with her neutrals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwOPVwapZxY

I did okay, but lost my cool late in both games. I see all my mistakes, but I did have a broken wrist and it was starting to hurt. No johns though, I got out played.

Awh you had the first game but you did dair instead of fair when coming onto the stage.
Your spacing of aerials is incredibly good, and I really like how you use bacon, you move very well with it.
You did this really swag thing, it was like uair to utilt to regrab.
Try to bait moves and grab Diddy more, his fall speed gives us solid options out of throws, and just try to get him in the air to juggle him more.
The only things I can really say bad are be more fluent with wavedashing I don't know if it was because your wrist, but you missed quite a few and airdodged. Respect Diddy's fsmash more that this is terrible, you can SDI directly away from him if you get caught at the edge though. And lastly something every GnW is guilty of, work on sweetspotting the edge more. You did have some of the best GnW recovery I have seen though, but all too often GnW flies up and lands on the stage. Nice use of double jump though, I struggle to save it, do you use tap jump?

 

[Crezyte]

Zelda is free for GW if she uses Dins a lot, it gets a lot harder if she is playing patient with her neutrals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwOPVwapZxY

I did okay, but lost my cool late in both games. I see all my mistakes, but I did have a broken wrist and it was starting to hurt. No johns though, I got out played.

My quick tidbit...

You are strong in:
Bacon pressure
Combo game
Spacing

You are weak in:
Recovery
Edgeguards (i know its diddy but if a character needs to stay still for that long in up-b, you should be able to go out and hit that mofo)

 

[Artimus]

Thanks for the input! Yeah, a lot of missed wave-lands and the jabbing too many times was because of my wrist. I was in Melee and PM and my right wrist being broken was really throwing me off from the pain. Like I said, no johns either way!

I never really thought about challenging Diddy so hard off stage because of the side B stuff, but that really makes sense. My recovery seemed off because Disafter plays Dakpo a lot and he likes to sweetspot, so under that assumption I tried high recoveries assuming Disafter would bait my sweetspot and noodle me. I should have changed it more after recognizing he was covering the high options honestly.

I like to think I'm another good GW player ;A; Maybe one day.

I placed 17th with a record matching the next like, 5 or six people I think out of 80 something. I want to get on stream more, but it's kinda hard when stream is reserved for big name matches. Just gotta beat someone good on stream once or twice I guess. Haha.

I've also got Dolphin PM and Netplay stuff, if anyone wants to play some matches!

Edit: I actually beat Dakpo in a double or nothing money match one time in GW dittos, but it went unrecorded because we both cray and started too early. He's still a much better and smarter player than myself by miles, but I'll get there.

Edit Edit: Took two stocks off M2Ks Fox in a MM and was still in it but had to call it quits early because of a stream match and was going to get DQ'd.

 

[shapular]

Do you guys think the gradual neutering of PM stage lists is a hindrance to G&W? For a long time in Brawl, I've thought of G&W as a vertical character, someone who excels going up and down rather than left and right. By that I mean most of his strings send the opponent up, like bair to bair or nair to nair or nair to up B to fair or whatever. We like to think he's bad at approaching, but really he's just bad at approaching from the side. He's amazing at approaching from below, and he has a decent enough approach from above. Thus, I've always thought he was best at small, quirky, or vertically-aligned stages, and terrible on FD and perhaps Yoshi's Island. I think the key here is vertically-aligned. I think small stages happen to be good largely because they're less horizontal, and thus proportionally more vertical. Quirky stages like Delfino, Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, or Distant Planet give him extra options for vertical approaches. I think part of G&W's fall from viability (besides people learning to SDI bair) was due to MK being too amazing on G&W's good stages or the stages being banned for other reasons.

I think all of that applies even more to PM, given that a majority of his combo game is up B > stuff, or uair > stuff. IMO, by far his best legal stages are WarioWare, Yoshi's Story, and FoD. Unfortunately, the widespread 3-ban rule often eliminates all of those. I think some of his next best stages are Lylat, Skyloft, Skyworld, and Norfair. Basically, stages that are covered in a layer of platform. G&W loves platforms because he can pester his opponents from under them while remaining safe, and they make techchases almost free. Unfortunately, two of those are usually banned, and Skyworld and Lylat are becoming banned more frequently. Plus, Norfair is changing entirely (I haven't tested the new one to see how it works for G&W, but it seems okay). The other stage which seems really good for G&W is Metal Cavern. It's a bit different from the others, but I think it works well for G&W since he can control small amounts of space excellently. Bacon covers a lot of the stage. He also works pretty well on slopes, which seem to frustrate other characters, due to his large, lingering, disjointed hitboxes. But I think I've only seen this stage legal at one tournament (one of the Infinity and Beyonds, I think).

So I believe that one of G&W's main problems in PM is that his best stages are the ones everybody else hates or calls "jank". Banning these stages causes his weaknesses to get exposed and dilutes his strengths. But in reality, nobody's going to decide to unban these stages just for G&W. For this reason, I believe PMBR should consider a specific, discrete set of stages when balancing characters. Maybe they already do, but if that's the case they should make it known what those stages are. I'm against this in principle, and PMBR has stated they don't want to make an official ruleset, but I think it's in the best interest of balance if they pick a set of stages and make every character work well enough on them. That means either we need more vertical stages, less bans (I'm in favor of this anyway), or a reasonably effective horizontal approach option.

I didn't really mean for this to turn into a rhetorical essay. I just wanted to know if you guys think I'm on the right track with this opinion or if I'm completely loopy. Feel free to tear apart any part of this and tell me why I'm wrong.

 

[Metmetm3t]

I don't think i agree. The thing is most every character would prefer approach from below. GaWs extra vertical combos just mean that they work regardless stage position. On top of that many the stages you mentioned are terrible for gaw depending on the matchup. I think the one thing that is correct about your argument that since he's bad in neutral, gaw would rather be in a scrum. But if your opponent can abuse the stage better than you it's not going help.

 

[shapular]

I think there are actually a lot of characters who aren't good at approaching from below (in general, the ones who can't juggle well). If we're talking strictly about the G&W matchup, then he's better at hitting some characters down through platforms (with dair) than they are at hitting him up through platforms. Dair covers a lot of approaches from below in the air too, and up B avoids a lot of things. Platforms allow G&W to go right into his combos without having to set them up with a throw or dtilt or whatever. They also help extend his combos, especially pillars. I think they help a lot more than you're giving them credit for.

What stages that I mentioned do you think are bad for G&W? What stages do you think he's good at? From watching you occasionally, you seem to go for different stages than I do, like FD or Dreamland.

 

[jtm94]

Being below someone has been predominantly the best position to be in in smash history next to controlling the edge against a recovering foe.

I like stages where bacon is useful like Pokemon Stadium and Smashville. Combos work extremely well and often actually KO on Warioware. I may start to like Dreamland once recovering are changed because he can make it back from far and they can't, but right now I dislike it.

Recently I've been strongly disliking the Peach and Snake MU as GnW. Strongly is an understatement.

 

[snapcaster]

Going above on platforms with dair is a trap most of the time. It might work once as a mix up, but beyond that you're better to just do your best off to get down without getting hit.

 

[JRC LSS]

So I just had an idea for making judgement hammer less random. Let me know if it's a terrible idea or not. Make the number that shows up be tied to the seconds digit on the clock. So if you press side b when the clock shows 6:39, you'll get a 9. At 5:42, you'll get a 2, etc. I don't know what would happen at the 0's, but that can be figured out later. The hammer's not easy to hit with, and since you usually have to combo into it, I really don't think this would be broken. Imagine the skill that would be required to time a combo into a 9. I just don't think that an ohko move should be completely random (not including the dots). And if you play more casually or don't pay attention to the clock, it's essentially random anyway. You wouldn't be able to practice with it in training mode though.

So is this a dumb idea? Are there other ideas for making Game and Watch less random? Are you guys okay with his randomness?

 

[Metmetm3t]

Balancing judgement gets brought up every couple of months around here. The general consensus is that the randomness stinks from a competitive standpoint, but removing it would just lead to some kind of unintended consequence.

The move is designed to be random. The serendipity of stumbling upon a 9 is half the appeal of the move. With control over the results, a metagame would evolve around setting up a 9. At it's best it wouldn't be any better than it is now, and at it's worst it would be degenerative and boring.

I think your idea falls into the first category here. It's neat that, in theory, you could know what you are going to get before hand. But I reality you can't really manipulate your interactions to coincide with certain points on the timer. In natural play you would feel like it's just as random as it is now, if not more so.

On the other hand, if you tried to force the mechanic you would probably just hang around in neutral and wildly swing side-b every 10 seconds in hopes that your opponent runs in and gets theirself bodied. Which would fall into the degenerative category and would turn the move into even more of a gimmick.

 

[Yung Mei]

hammer is fine as it is, especially with the dots

 

[JRC LSS]

Balancing judgement gets brought up every couple of months around here. The general consensus is that the randomness stinks from a competitive standpoint, but removing it would just lead to some kind of unintended consequence.

The move is designed to be random. The serendipity of stumbling upon a 9 is half the appeal of the move. With control over the results, a metagame would evolve around setting up a 9. At it's best it wouldn't be any better than it is now, and at it's worst it would be degenerative and boring.

I think your idea falls into the first category here. It's neat that, in theory, you could know what you are going to get before hand. But I reality you can't really manipulate your interactions to coincide with certain points on the timer. In natural play you would feel like it's just as random as it is now, if not more so.

On the other hand, if you tried to force the mechanic you would probably just hang around in neutral and wildly swing side-b every 10 seconds in hopes that your opponent runs in and gets theirself bodied. Which would fall into the degenerative category and would turn the move into even more of a gimmick.

Yeah, you're probably right. I guess I was just hoping the mechanic could land in some sort of middle ground, with players very rarely being able to set up "9" kills. And if someone gets a lucky 9 kill, they could at least claim it was all skill lol. The dots are alright, but I feel like there's got to be a better way.

As for chef, what about making the food angles follow a set pattern? Like, you would have one bacon come out at each of the possible angles in a seemingly random order, and then have that order repeat itself. It would be a simple change that really wouldn't change too much in competition. It would take some of the randomness out though, and at least you (and maybe your opponent) would be able to predict a long range bacon or whatever.

 

[Yung Mei]

Yeah, you're probably right. I guess I was just hoping the mechanic could land in some sort of middle ground, with players very rarely being able to set up "9" kills. And if someone gets a lucky 9 kill, they could at least claim it was all skill lol. The dots are alright, but I feel like there's got to be a better way.

As for chef, what about making the food angles follow a set pattern? Like, you would have one bacon come out at each of the possible angles in a seemingly random order, and then have that order repeat itself. It would be a simple change that really wouldn't change too much in competition. It would take some of the randomness out though, and at least you (and maybe your opponent) would be able to predict a long range bacon or whatever.

we technically already have a way to control the path the bacon takes, just hold a direction that isnt back. you can angle your bacons to go up higher and closer or lower and further

 

[Rᴏb]

As for chef, what about making the food angles follow a set pattern? Like, you would have one bacon come out at each of the possible angles in a seemingly random order, and then have that order repeat itself. It would be a simple change that really wouldn't change too much in competition. It would take some of the randomness out though, and at least you (and maybe your opponent) would be able to predict a long range bacon or whatever.

PLEASE.

Being able to angle bacon is swell and all, but actually knowing where they go would be awesome. We only really need to know where the first 2 go too. There is literally no reason why this move needs to stay RNG based.

 

[JRC LSS]

we technically already have a way to control the path the bacon takes, just hold a direction that isnt back. you can angle your bacons to go up higher and closer or lower and further

Sorry, I can't believe I didn't know that! Was it always that way? I didn't see it on any changelogs. Being able to control it kind of trumps my idea then.

 

[jtm94]

I have a request I want others to look into as well. I don't like the hitbox placement on fair, being honest. The move itself and it's properties are good, but he is SWINGING A CAKE in front of him, but the hitbox is literately the cent of his body. It makes spacing it or even connecting it very contradictory to what it looks like. If things like Link's nair have been changed for "professionalism" then I see nothing wrong with moving at least the strong hitbox a little more forward on his body so it doesn't have more max range, but the strong hitbox would be more dominant in front of him than inside him. I just hate that the fair will go through them and not do a thing because the hitbox isn't on the object he's swinging.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Being able to angle bacon has existed since Brawl.

I have a request I want others to look into as well. I don't like the hitbox placement on fair, being honest. The move itself and it's properties are good, but he is SWINGING A CAKE in front of him, but the hitbox is literately the cent of his body. It makes spacing it or even connecting it very contradictory to what it looks like. If things like Link's nair have been changed for "professionalism" then I see nothing wrong with moving at least the strong hitbox a little more forward on his body so it doesn't have more max range, but the strong hitbox would be more dominant in front of him than inside him. I just hate that the fair will go through them and not do a thing because the hitbox isn't on the object he's swinging.

This is like, the most wrong thing you could have said.
1) There is no bacon angling in Brawl. That was introduced somewhere around PM 2.5
2) This is the hitbox on fair. It is one of the most disjointed moves in the game. All hitboxes on fair are the same. It has a sweetspot for the first 3 frames and the rest is sour spot. In PM, there is also a bonus hitbox one frame early, while the box is on top of his head.

 

[jtm94]

Yeah I'm stupid. I remember it being able to be angled, but it's been some time.

So his hitboxes from Melee are his PM ones? It feels more often than not his fair goes through people. I was testing the hitbox using the frame advance code and I was having results where the entire swing of his fair went through people.

Teach me senpai.

 

[Metmetm3t]

If you know a dev, and have access to frame advance / debug, then you should also have access to this:

Turn on hitbox viewer and it is quite clear that there are no holes in fair. The only way you could possibly miss is if you went past someone.

 

[jtm94]

That is incredibly weird....
I don't have access to that, I've been waiting on it. I tried doing what I believed worked to view GnW hitboxes in Brawl Box. I had to resize and move them but it seemed like it worked because all the other aerials seemed correctly placed. I guess that's why no one ever did his frame data because it's wonky.

I will eventually replicate fair going through people with the frame advance. Perhaps the fair hitbox doesn't appear as soon as he swings forward? That's the window in which it was whiffing because I was trying to find what frame the forward swing hit on.

 

[Hamman88]

When you're edge-guarding someone and hit them offstage with a J8, what determines the trajectory of the ice block?
I've had it where the ice shoots directly downward like a meteor (that cant be meteor cancelled cause they're frozen XD) but ive also had it lazily drift downward and even sometimes have it launch them upward spinning rapidly. Is there any reasoning behind this, is the the location on the hammer where you hit them, like does the topmost part cause the spike and so on and so-forth?

Has anyone ever given this any thought/testing?

 

[Metmetm3t]

It has to do with whether the opponent is in the air. If they are in the air they will get meteored. If they are on the ground they float up and back down.

The meteor is a glitch that comes from some of the physics changes in PM.

 

[Artimus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JREnN18nLQQ Vs Wario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKYOMX5aXo Vs Wario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kyig90F12c Vs Captain Falcon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB-q5TOiU1E Vs Wario, again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vdsi3otvU4 Vs Snake. I was so worried about spacing, I actually didn't hit him. A lot. Lmao

Grand Finals not here because I got absolutely rekt by Shokio.