Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Nintendude]

I'm pretty sure I'm going. I started trying to use GW a couple days ago on keyboard netplay lol, so I'm not sure how legitimate my GW will be, but I'm planning on trying him out in the tournament for fun. I've been meaning to actually learn a PM character instead of just playing Melee in PM (if that makes any sense) and since GW was my favorite Melee low tier and one of my Brawl mains back in like 2008 it kind of makes sense for me to use him.

Also I think GW is an incredibly stupid character (like a lot of PM characters) and that the GW mains I've seen aren't bringing the stupid out of him. The fact that he can jump after up-B is an insanely overpowered tool in a plethora of situations. He's chock full of ways to combo into his side-B, gets free edgeguards with d-tilt, 0-deaths spacies for free, automatically has throw mix-ups, has an anti-projectile (instant releasing the down-B seems to counter projectile approaches entirely), has a reliable 1-frame combo escape move, has stupid disjointed hitboxes, and is really hard to edgeguard. And don't even get me started on how lame short-hop double sausage is for opponents to deal with. The fact that the PM competitive scene has no dominant player who mains GW kind of baffles me because this character seems pretty broken.

 

[Italia06823834]

I know exactly what you mean by "just playing Melee in PM." That's basically why I like GnW and Roy best.

Anyway not sure what you mean by "pretty broken". GnW has a really tough time against people with Non-bucket-able projectiles and to some extent people with swords making for some very tough MUs. His defense is pretty bad too. I do think he's a lot better than he gets credit for though. Honestly I'm okay with it. I like how there isn't a ton of GnW players. On one hand I want GnW to get the respect he probably deserves, but on the other hand because so few people play him seriously opponents generally don't know the MU all that well even fewer know all his cool little tricks.

 

[Nintendude]

idk, his defense seems fine to me now that he has a properly sized shield, a get out of jail free card (up-B), and solid options out of retreats such as wd back d-tilt and retreating short hop double sausage. Decent wavedash and range too allowing him to get in on swordsmen when they attack his shield. Not sure where this "GW has bad defense" notion is coming from.

 

[Nguz95]

You should watch some Dakpo. He's the highest level G&W right now.

 

[Juushichi]

By all means, Nintendude. Do it.

I would absolutely positively love for you to show us how broken Mr. Game and Watch is.

I think you are greatly underselling some of the current and past players of GnW and greatly overblowing his tools in practice like many other people who have casually come to watch or play with the character for a few days or whatever. I do know that you're hella good, but if my appraisal of characters in PM is correct you're picking up a character that is worse than all of the characters that you have played up to this point lol (by how much, who knows?).

You probably are not aware, but retreating iHopping basically gets beat by every low-profile move in the game and exposes GnW to a pretty big bane in general (jumping for no reason, lol).

However, I think everyone here realizes that there are a lot of areas where we as players are lacking. I think there are a lot of underutilized basics that will benefit Game and Watch significantly as everyone gets better. That being said...

Good luck. Bring tech and high-level Melee experience to this character that we haven't seen since Wobbles picked up the character for fun after his retirement. I hope you do well and give us another good example to learn from.

 

[Nintendude]

I checked out some Dakpo vids to get a feel for where GW's combo game is at right now, since I think that's definitely Dakpo's strong point. There are some habits of his that I strongly disagree with, especially his use of neutral-B. He does that Brawl aerial pivot thing to approach with it kind of like a Yoshi DJC Nair or something but it isn't that effective imo. It's like a smaller Fair and the sausages don't do anything since GW moves in front of them. Sausages seem to be a much stronger tool when you first create a wall with them (so like sh double sausage twice either in place or retreating). Once they come down in their arc that's when they open up GW's approach options since they often end up bailing him out if he gets punished, among just being a nuisance in general. Sausages that are directly above GW / behind him are completely useless so why put sausages in that position?

GW's sausage camping game is ridiculous once he has a wall set up because he has so many moves he can stick in front of him to stuff ground approaches while the sausages police the air. Dakpo doesn't seem to camp and that really hurts him imo.

GW players also should never recover low, ever. That's why GW players (including Dakpo) are getting edgeguarded. If GW just up-Bs early and comes down from above he's like impossible to edgeguard without a good read on his landing. The only problem is he can't air-dodge as a mix-up but given how good his existing options for coming down are it's not really a problem.

edit: I'm mainly just theorycrafting now with some testing against scrappy online players. If I don't get too bogged down with Melee this weekend I'll probably come back with some revised insight on some of this.

edit 2: Let me also share some new (I think) technology I thought of. When the opponent is respawning, jump to the highest platform, single jump, up-B, then immediately down-B. Boom. You just stalled out their entire invincibility window and still have a double jump for coming down. Another one of many ways that up-B is stupidly good.

 

[Juushichi]

I agree that I don't think Dakpo camps enough, but I think we fundamentally disagree with what he should be camping with. Dakpo was a lot more chef heavy defensive in earlier phases of his game, but I think this was proven to be less effective as he played more with Sethlon, Oracle, Awestin and other strong players down in Texas.

I actually think that w/ the increased ranges from other characters and how light GnW is in general... it's still a better idea to mix where you come up. I don't really think there is a "right" recovery for him, since he can still jump out of up B if he saves his DJ.

I honestly believe that jumping out of Up-B is strictly worse when you are coming from high because you lose all of your resources when hit and as people get more seasoned w/ GnW, he doesn't have the air speed or w/e to really slip away even w/ up b and all of his moves take a while to come out when coming from high + have poor coverage landing.

 

[Metmetm3t]

You'll see Nintendude, you'll see. Best of luck though. There is definitely a level of potential that hasn't been unleashed yet.

Short story: Remember when NoJ came in here and told us he was going to blow up the world with G&W? Rip NoJ.

 

[Nintendude]

We'll see indeed. Again I've mostly just been theorycrafting.

 

[Juushichi]

That's fine. There's also a GnW skype that we speak a lot of theory/MU stuff in. I know with some of our newer additions, there has been a lot of conceptual discussion that has gone on. Do you have a way to stream or capture video?

That could be another way to work some things out. Not saying that you need assistance (I firmly believe that GnW is a very straightforward character, lol) but it can help. I've talked to m3t and Meiling a fair amount about theory, move-usage and other both in and out of the skype group (I actually have m3t's number too, lol).

 

[Dakpo]

Thanks Guys! thats some killer advice. I have a lot to work on and will be doing so in the lab. Hopefully I will come back from this

 

[Dakpo]

I. The fact that the PM competitive scene has no dominant player who mains GW kind of baffles me because this character seems pretty broken.

FWI, I was ranked 7th player of the year for 2013 via statistics. So I think I've earned my spot

That's fine. There's also a GnW skype that we speak a lot of theory/MU stuff in. I know with some of our newer additions, there has been a lot of conceptual discussion that has gone on. Do you have a way to stream or capture video?

That could be another way to work some things out. Not saying that you need assistance (I firmly believe that GnW is a very straightforward character, lol) but it can help. I've talked to m3t and Meiling a fair amount about theory, move-usage and other both in and out of the skype group (I actually have m3t's number too, lol).

Wow you guys are giving some great analysis to my game play. The bacon thing is right on though. I use bacon more/less depending on the match-up and I use it a lot less because of the strong nerfs it got (mostly adding lag) I want to use it, but I need to rethink where I put it.) I have a lot of work to do.

I checked out some Dakpo vids to get a feel for where GW's combo game is at right now, since I think that's definitely Dakpo's strong point. There are some habits of his that I strongly disagree with, especially his use of neutral-B. He does that Brawl aerial pivot thing to approach with it kind of like a Yoshi DJC Nair or something but it isn't that effective imo. It's like a smaller Fair and the sausages don't do anything since GW moves in front of them. Sausages seem to be a much stronger tool when you first create a wall with them (so like sh double sausage twice either in place or retreating). Once they come down in their arc that's when they open up GW's approach options since they often end up bailing him out if he gets punished, among just being a nuisance in general. Sausages that are directly above GW / behind him are completely useless so why put sausages in that position?

GW's sausage camping game is ridiculous once he has a wall set up because he has so many moves he can stick in front of him to stuff ground approaches while the sausages police the air. Dakpo doesn't seem to camp and that really hurts him imo.

GW players also should never recover low, ever. That's why GW players (including Dakpo) are getting edgeguarded. If GW just up-Bs early and comes down from above he's like impossible to edgeguard without a good read on his landing. The only problem is he can't air-dodge as a mix-up but given how good his existing options for coming down are it's not really a problem.

edit: I'm mainly just theorycrafting now with some testing against scrappy online players. If I don't get too bogged down with Melee this weekend I'll probably come back with some revised insight on some of this.

edit 2: Let me also share some new (I think) technology I thought of. When the opponent is respawning, jump to the highest platform, single jump, up-B, then immediately down-B. Boom. You just stalled out their entire invincibility window and still have a double jump for coming down. Another one of many ways that up-B is stupidly good.

Great input, I love how much thought you put into this. I have to disagree on some points you made though. Recovering low is a necessity. If you try to play against any sword character (aka all our bad matchups) and try recovering from above, you WILL get demolished. Some match-ups you can get away with it though. It also depends on the level of you opponent. Bacon Spam is good, but there are many wholes in it to use during neutral especial against fast characters. Again, this makes it completely match-up dependent. Thus big characters like DDD, DK, and Bowser are just about free wins. Ill try to do a lot less of the B reverse and work on some other things because you made an excellent point about making sure the bacon inst behind or above me.

Ill be trying out the last piece of tech :D

 

[Maestro_]

sausage

Confirmed new official name of neutral B.

 

[jtm94]

I would be down for joining the GnW Skype, I am an avid fan of the char and I've been making really solid progress in bettering my usage of him. His combos are so strong you can cover so many options with his attacks it's amazing.

I wanna try the UpB stall to avoid invincibility.

I also disagree with recovering high, most of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

I kind of like messing around with GnW, can I be in the skype group
Then again I'm pretty sure dakpo doesn't want me to learn stuff before playing him >_>

 

[Italia06823834]

edit 2: Let me also share some new (I think) technology I thought of. When the opponent is respawning, jump to the highest platform, single jump, up-B, then immediately down-B. Boom. You just stalled out their entire invincibility window and still have a double jump for coming down. Another one of many ways that up-B is stupidly good.

I quite like that. Not sure it would work on everyone. Bowser for example could chase you up and a Uair from the high already would basically instantly kill GnW at anything but the lowest percents.

 

[Nintendude]

Regarding recovering high, imo B reverse, down-B stall, double jump, bair, and dair are more than enough tools to get back down. I'm still just theorycrafting though (anyone want to crap on my GW on netplay?)

 

[Dakpo]

I kind of like messing around with GnW, can I be in the skype group
Then again I'm pretty sure dakpo doesn't want me to learn stuff before playing him >_>

I would prefer you not to be in there tbh. You're literally in the top 3 people I need to beat. Unless you seriously use GnW then we can talk.....

 

[jtm94]

I am in the process of making a GnW combo video, I will share some of my highlights if it gets me in the Skype group.

I also have access to the ability to record.

 

[Yung Mei]

you should just send me your **** cuz im making a gnw group video atm

 

[Nguz95]

Guess I'm going to have to make a skype then

 

[Yung Mei]

Nah, if anyone has stuff for the video, don't try and send me that **** via skype, that **** takes forever. instead just upload the video to Mediafire, and send me the download link.

 

[Juushichi]

Hooo, got a bit to catch up on:

@ Dakpo : No problem man, I respect your play a lot and have since the ZSS Brawl days. You bring an approach to the character that is very punishment heavy. In Brawl, making the most of your hits was paramount because on the whole you didn't get a lot off of it. Your air-to-air is (imo) very strong because of that as well. I'm never joking when I mention that our dedicated players all do something different. Or at least the ones I am most familar with.

You and m3t have some crazy punish games and followups. Meiling has his tech down and tons of setups. I think I play neutral pretty well when I'm in my right mind and try to bring slick movement in when I don't have the tech or punishes that you guys do. Many other 'Watches bring something else new to the table. We've got a fantastic player base and I've felt that since like 2.1, lmao.

@ Nintendude : I know the up b stall vs Bowser is particularly hard to want to attempt because:
Dair - Can't afford to trade w/ up airs (and upairs like his)
B-reverse/Wavebounce Chef - Gets stuffed from below and does not have enough movement to juke most characters (also doesn't clank from bottom)
DJ + Bucket Stall seems pretty good, however you've used all of your resources in one shot. That's a pretty risky proposition, I think.

Also, I think GnW has a pretty decent ledgestall game. iirc, he has a pretty good haxdash because of his WD and you can invincible uair regrab. Meiling also recently linked some ledge things in a video as well.

@ Yung Mei : I'm probably going to play on a rec setup this weekend at a smashfest so I'll try to get some more. Otherwise, idk look up "Juushichi GnW" on YT and I'm sure you'll find /something/. I think Maestro and I did some sick stuff in our set from like a month ago.

@ZachAttax64: I know I personally wouldn't mind you being there, at least for a bit... but Dakpo's doing his prep for you, so I guess nah lol. I'll talk some tech w/ you in the TL skype though, if you want. You can give me more TL tech to steal. Otherwise, idk, watch Dakpo videos and mess around. GnW isn't that complex.

 

[Metmetm3t]

juu can you add skype nfo to op

 

[Juushichi]

idk what you want me to add, that it exists?

if so, ok.

 

[CoolDad2]

are footstools something i should try incorporating into my game play?

 

[Yung Mei]

are footstools something i should try incorporating into my game play?

id say no, but if you wanna get #turnt like dakpo, use it after 2nd hit dair onstage for extra fancy

 

[jtm94]

id say no, but if you wanna get #turnt like dakpo, use it after 2nd hit dair onstage for extra fancy

So I was playing someone who used Sheik today and I pulled off a RIDICULOUS combo today.

Final Destination and he respawned. I used dtilt into uair uair then UpB, fastfell meteor of dair, hit the landing hitbox of dair, into uair, dair fastfell and landing hitbox into UpB into fair and it did like 110%.

I think the biggest thing is learning the feel for what works immediately after UpB, because that dair was/is the biggest combo extender GnW has. I just felt like I wanted to do it because I knew it was possible and it happened. Ending with UpB into nair is also amazeballs.

 

[Spoon~]

Yo i need to join this GaW group

 

[Yung Mei]

So I was playing someone who used Sheik today and I pulled off a RIDICULOUS combo today.

Final Destination and he respawned. I used dtilt into uair uair then UpB, fastfell meteor of dair, hit the landing hitbox of dair, into uair, dair fastfell and landing hitbox into UpB into fair and it did like 110%.

I think the biggest thing is learning the feel for what works immediately after UpB, because that dair was/is the biggest combo extender GnW has. I just felt like I wanted to do it because I knew it was possible and it happened. Ending with UpB into nair is also amazeballs.

#turnt

 

[Artimus]

Dakpo, can we do MM now pls? C:

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo, can we do MM now pls? C:

Of course! in fact, you can MM via MM a pro on the april 12th tourney

 

[Artimus]

So you are going? Awesome! Excited to hear that. Is also like to request video, if that's going to be a thing. Ive placed well at the last three tournaments (4th last saturday), so Id like to test my meddle and new technology.

I haven't gotten anything on video so there's no way to review and critique my gameplay and this would be a great chance for me to get better. Zenkai.

 

[Nintendude]

What should I be doing after hitting someone with Judgment 8?

 

[Artimus]

If you hit them in the air, fall with a Nair or bair, upsmash and sh Nair again to hopefully catch their mashout. There no set way to punish, but you definitely want an upsmash in there. It nets quite a bit of damage very quickly and hopefully the Nair catches the mashout, but its impossible to tell what button they hit afterwards, just be ready for them to come out swinging, nair covers a lot of options. IMO

Edit: Chair them off the ledge, if possible for maximum lols

 

[Deleted member]

So I just had a small little smashfest at my place and I played gnw for a little bit
Holy **** I love this character, reading rolls with dacus is delicious and b reverse bacon <3!!!

 

[jtm94]

So I just had a small little smashfest at my place and I played gnw for a little bit
Holy **** I love this character, reading rolls with dacus is delicious and b reverse bacon <3!!!

Glad you like him, he has tons of potential. As far as b reverse bacon... I don't even mess with that.

 

[Italia06823834]

Edit: Chair them off the ledge, if possible for maximum lols

That really is just the funniest thing. I'm not sure if I like that or the mid-air offstage 8 that just immediately kills them better.

 

[Artimus]

8 is the jankiest thing. Sometimes they rocket down like a boulder, other times they float down and you can't really punish it.

I also like using wavebounced hammers on tech-reads. It just adds to the "What the hell is Game and Watch doing now?" feeling for your opponent. *A*

 

[Spoon~]

Nothing like following up 8's with a few usmashes. i love me a free 70%.