Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Pixeldude]

How to approach Marth from above? All his moves outrange my moves.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Don't approach Marth from above. As a general rule if you are above someone you are losing. G&W's dair may give you a false since of security in some matchups, but you would still rather be the one below where you can throw out UAirs and Nairs. When you are in these situations and you NEED a way down, try is DIing way over the edge and coming back up from below, or surprising him with an Air Dodge when he over commits, or using Down B to stall just outside of his range before fast falling.

 

[Artimus]

Up-B away, get as far to the side as possible or use wavebounce bacon to throw out some greasy bees above them and change your momentum.

 

[Juushichi]

Keep in mind that up-Bing away from pressure is or seems good at first, but when baited, even with the momentum switches from wavebouncing chef that you may just keep getting juggled. There's still a very obvious set trajectory that Game and Watch travels in, so be careful not to rely on it too much. Otherwise, it is a pefectly decent escape tool.

Oh yeah, I also won a tournament last weekend. I only used Game and Watch vs SoulPech (GF 1/2) and don't think I did anything that cool, but we can say that another GnW player won a tournament finally, lol. Vids will be up soon-ish, I think.

 

[Oro?!]

Well timed dair beats out a lot of juggling attempts, or at least trades. That's just from personal experience so I don't know how many characters can successfully juggle GnW, but it at least seems like a decent enough matchup specific knowledge to have.

 

[Juushichi]

I'm not sure what part of dair you're getting hit by or maybe if you're mistiming your juggle, Oro, but I've had my dair stuffed by just about anything.

iirc, there are a few parts where I get a dair that has been out for a bit stuffed by a puff up air in my GF vs SoulPech.

But it is, like most GnW things, a rather unreliable defensive tool. It is still a tool, though.

 

[Artimus]

Dair is also very easily punished if they get behind you. Happens to me way to much, where my options were up-b away and kinda reset the situation or challenge the grounded opponent, 9 times out of ten I am punished for the dair where the escape leads to an easier life. GNW doesn't deal with pressure, so escaping in tight situations is almost always better, especially if you are above them.

 

[Rᴏb]

Charegable giant bacon by holding b, good idea or no? It would give him a better option than what holding b currently does, which is just 5 slow bacon.

Just an idea.

 

[Artimus]

I like GW the way he is now, honestly. I feel like he is right where he needs to be, aside from possibly having his throw speed increased a bit for heavier characters for a better mix up and a different angle f-throw, other than that.. He's perfect, imo.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Making changes isn't just about making a move "better" in some aspect. It's about addressing problems in match-ups. That change doesn't do anything for G&W where he needs it.

 

[Rᴏb]

I agree that G&W doesn't need any changes; I just like the idea of giving a character 'broken' move that has no purpose other than giving the character an interesting option that would ultimately be up to the players to figure out any possible use(s) for it. It would also be replacing something that is indisputably useless, so why not make it possibly useful? Stuff like that just makes sense to me, but maybe that is simply my preference.

It was such a trivial (and vague) suggestion, and G&W certainly isn't anywhere near being OP, I can't see the change being negative. Maybe needless, but it would make more sense to determine that after the fact.

 

[&Y_]

I don't think giant bacon ever needs to come back. Doesn't help with anything, and doesn't really fit with GnW's style of kill moves.

It would also be replacing something that is indisputably useless, so why not make it possibly useful?

Are you saying Bacon isn't useful?

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't think giant bacon ever needs to come back. Doesn't help with anything, and doesn't really fit with GnW's style of kill moves.

Are you saying Bacon isn't useful?

lol not at all. When you hold down the b button in the current version, you slowly fling 5 pieces of bacon. There is literally no reason to use this method, as you probably already know, so my train of thought is: why not give us a reason? It would give G&W another option that may (or may not) prove to be useful, depending on how exactly it is implemented.

Also, my suggestion was just that- a suggestion. Giant bacon certainly doesn't have to come back if that's not what the people want. I'm mainly arguing for a useful option to replace the useless one.

 

[&Y_]

lol not at all. When you hold down the b button in the current version, you slowly fling 5 pieces of bacon. There is literally no reason to use this method, as you probably already know, so my train of thought is: why not give us a reason? It would give G&W another option that may (or may not) prove to be useful, depending on how exactly it is implemented.

I don't think this matters. PM wants to be a fast paced game, and so options that allow for lots of movement are almost always better. Why would charged up super meat be any more reliable than Short hop double bacon hitconfirm to Nair. Super bacon flew out at a semirandom angle even if you limited it with the control stick is fairly unreliable. Jump Bacon is just superior in almost every situation. You can wavebounce, B reverse, skilletspike. Standing or even jumping charge bacon would just limit your options. If anything the loss of instacancel to wait hurt GnW more than the loss of super bacon. No more super fast crazy bacon shenanigans.

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't think this matters. PM wants to be a fast paced game, and so options that allow for lots of movement are almost always better. Why would charged up super meat be any more reliable than Short hop double bacon hitconfirm to Nair. Super bacon flew out at a semirandom angle even if you limited it with the control stick is fairly unreliable. Jump Bacon is just superior in almost every situation. You can wavebounce, B reverse, skilletspike. Standing or even jumping charge bacon would just limit your options. If anything the loss of instacancel to wait hurt GnW more than the loss of super bacon. No more super fast crazy bacon shenanigans.

Totally necessary nerf, but yeah it was fun.

idk, like I said, I would just like another useful option. I really don't give a **** if giant bacon comes back, it was just the first thing I thought of, lol. I'm not trying to say short hop double bacon is bad or anything, I'm just trying to add more depth to this 2d move (hehe)

Another random idea: holding b instantly makes you fastfall, like in melee (it was fastfall speed, right?). So you could have the option for faster movement but less bacon, or slower movement but more bacon.

 

[&Y_]

Another random idea: holding b instantly makes you fastfall, like in melee (it was fastfall speed, right?). So you could have the option for faster movement but less bacon, or slower movement but more bacon.

IIRC in melee it just stopped all upward momentum, didn't think it was a fast fall. Though I'm not an expert on Melee GnW.

I don't really think that any changes to bacon are needed. GnW can already shut down a whole lot of the cast with well placed bacon so buffing it any substantial way would let him dominate characters by pitching a tent and I think that the PMBR likes to avoid encouraging that. It's really crazy good as is.

If you look at where GnW struggles it's against people that can completely wall him out like the Links. If he gets buffed it should be in some way to fix the matchups that he struggles with not the ones he already wins.

 

[Rᴏb]

I just hate the idea of a useless move, especially on a character who is probably on the bottom half of the tier list. X__X

As for buffs that could help against the Links; I can't think of anything at the moment that would even be feasible or not broken.

 

[&Y_]

I just hate the idea of a useless move, especially on a character who is probably on the bottom half of the tier list. X__X

As for buffs that could help against the Links; I can't think of anything at the moment that would even be feasible or not broken.

I think we just view holding B for bacon to be different things. I view the move as a whole to be really good because I don't even think about holding B. It's like standing lasers with Falco. Would you say that Falco's laser is bad because when you stand and shoot it it's laggy? No because you always jump fire it. From my understanding you think that holding B down makes it a separate move, which I disagree on.

Also GnW is not in the Bottom half of the tier list. He just has polarized matchups. If anything I think he trades easily with spacies, particularly Falco. Just look at Dakpo, he kicks ass and takes names. We just need to put in the work and get the results that he does.

 

[Rᴏb]

I think we just view holding B for bacon to be different things. I view the move as a whole to be really good because I don't even think about holding B. It's like standing lasers with Falco. Would you say that Falco's laser is bad because when you stand and shoot it it's laggy? No because you always jump fire it. From my understanding you think that holding B down makes it a separate move, which I disagree on.

Also GnW is not in the Bottom half of the tier list. He just has polarized matchups. If anything I think he trades easily with spacies, particularly Falco. Just look at Dakpo, he kicks *** and takes names. We just need to put in the work and get the results that he does.

Falco's laser is different because holding b does nothing. We have an added functionality for G&W's neutral special, but it has no reason to ever be used, I just want it to have a reason.

I agree, G&W is pretty good against the spacies, but his polarizing matchups is the reason why I think he's in the bottom half. This doesn't mean he's bad.

 

[&Y_]

Falco's laser is different because holding b does nothing. We have an added functionality for G&W's neutral special, but it has no reason to ever be used, I just want it to have a reason.

I agree, G&W is pretty good against the spacies, but his polarizing matchups is the reason why I think he's in the bottom half. This doesn't mean he's bad.

I don't know. I don't even think of it as an added functionality. It's just a less efficient way to fire bacon. With SHDB being so crazy good, I don't think that it maters. Why fix what isn't broken?

I think he dominates more characters than dominate him. He might not be top tier, but he's solid good.

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't know. I don't even think of it as an added functionality. It's just a less efficient way to fire bacon. With SHDB being so crazy good, I don't think that it maters. Why fix what isn't broken?

I think he dominates more characters than dominate him. He might not be top tier, but he's solid good.

Well you're technically right, as it is right now, it isn't an added functionality because it has no practical use and I find that broken/silly. This is why I think we should take advantage of this situation because it could possibly serve a purpose down the line.

But yeah, G&W is a very solid character. Definitely has some flaws, but he strengths conceal them pretty well.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Did you guys really need 10 posts to say that? You guys wanna get chatty? Give me a few posts about why G&W goes ham on PS2 but lives the struggle on WarioWare.

 

[&Y_]

Did you guys really need 10 posts to say that? You guys wanna get chatty? Give me a few posts about why G&W goes ham on PS2 but lives the struggle on WarioWare.

Some people just love the giant meat.

Well for one GnW can live surprisingly long due to bucket braking. PS2 gives him more time to get the bucket out as it has larger blast zones. He also likes the space to through the bacon out. PS2 is a nice balance of space with platforms. He can be defensive with bacon and out space people, while also taking full advantage of the platforms. Bacon up through platforms is crazy good, and GnW can combo very well with them. I think PS2 is arguably the coolest stage in PM. It's just nice. You can basically play GnW anyway you want on PS2. Overall an awesome stage for GnW.

While GnW loves the tight spaces of Yoshi's, Warioware on the other hand is a crazy stage. The platform locations are pretty janky and the blast zones are super close. Gdubs cannot bucket brake easily on Warioware as he'll likely just die before he has the chance. There's something about the platforms that don't flow well with GnW's combos. They also give other characters ways to get around Bacon. Another other problem is that his up B can be more easily punished with the top platforms limiting his recovery. In theory GnW should love Warioware with it's small blast zones but it just doesn't work out well in practice. The four platforms give other characters the ability to challenge his vertical game more without giving GnW that many new options. It's not an awful stage but I wouldn't recommend it.

*accidentally hit submit early post finished now.

 

[Dakpo]

I want Down B to be able to jump cancel like fox, falco, Wolf, Ness, and Lucas.

 

[Yung Mei]

GNW CONFIRMED FOR TOP TIER, NOW THAT HE WILL GET A SHINE

 

[&Y_]

Jump cancel after the attack? That would be hilarious.

 

[Rᴏb]

Some people just love the giant meat.

Well for one GnW can live surprisingly long due to bucket braking. PS2 gives him more time to get the bucket out as it has larger blast zones. He also likes the space to through the bacon out. PS2 is a nice balance of space with platforms. He can be defensive with bacon and out space people, while also taking full advantage of the platforms. Bacon up through platforms is crazy good, and GnW can combo very well with them. I think PS2 is arguably the coolest stage in PM. It's just nice. You can basically play GnW anyway you want on PS2. Overall an awesome stage for GnW.

While GnW loves the tight spaces of Yoshi's, Warioware on the other hand is a crazy stage. The platform locations are pretty janky and the blast zones are super close. Gdubs cannot bucket brake easily on Warioware as he'll likely just die before he has the chance. There's something about the platforms that don't flow well with GnW's combos. They also give other characters ways to get around Bacon. Another other problem is that his up B can be more easily punished with the top platforms limiting his recovery. In theory GnW should love Warioware with it's small blast zones but it just doesn't work out well in practice. The four platforms give other characters the ability to challenge his vertical game more without giving GnW that many new options. It's not an awful stage but I wouldn't recommend it.

*accidentally hit submit early post finished now.

I'm a man who enjoys meat, how strange.
To add to what you said, I believe that G&W is one of those characters that flourishes on neutral stages. FoD is the obvious go to, but I don't think any G&W player would mind any of the starters. The platform placement (or lack thereof) is great for SHDB walls that could easily lead into any of G&W's aerials, DACG, gatling combo, upb strings... PS2 is probably the most neutral stage in the game, so that's why I think it works so well for G&W.

Warioware is a whole other story because of it's awkwardly placed platforms and unforgiving blast zones. The platforms protect people insanely well from SHDB because they are right above the ledge, so all someone has to do is wavedash off of middle platform to be able to get a free punish if you go in too hard. Their height is also problematic because bacon ends up getting caught on the platforms, so anyone below them is safe to punish. This stage is weird because the small blast zones seem to be made for G&W, but they usually end up killing him insanely early despite the weight gains.This is because of how bad the platforms shut down his strongest approach, so this stage seems to be his antithesis as well.

The bolded part of &Y_ 's post is the only part I don't agree with. I believe the only straight benefit G&W gets from Wario Ware is the top platforms. They certainly don't limit his recovery, they give him another way to mix it up that is relatively safe. Unfortunately, he doesn't get to take advantage of them that much because of the early killing blast zones. The top platforms can also prolong G&W's vertical juggling power against some characters that can lead to an early kill, but this isn't that substantial.

And a JC bucket would be cool and should be put in, but I think the bucket holds many other problems that directly contribute to some of G&W's worst matchups. It's his direct answer to projectiles and yet it simply doesn't work against some. If people really think he should change to combat bad matchups, bucket should be one of the things that needs attention straight away.

 

[Dakpo]

Jump cancel after the attack? That would be hilarious.

I don't think it would be feasible to jump cancel after the oil spill, but to do it after you absorb something would truly make it amazing and completely viable.

 

[Artimus]

Can we have forward angled bacon? Horizontal bacon, for under platforms and campy as **** TLink players.

 

[Rᴏb]

Map that change to holding b and I'm all for it. Any sort of bacon mixup wold be better than what we have now.

But man that Link matchup is still gonna suck.

 

[jtm94]

I still don't care for the angle bacon sends at because you it is only useful out of super low short hop. Otherwise it goes over heads or disappears.

I used to think it wasn't good in general unless against large characters, but it becomes more useful the more you use it. So you get rewarded for bacon camping like all hell and just flat out making it rain. Platforms ruin this though.

 

[Artimus]

Angled bacon is god-like.

 

[Dakpo]

good job this weekend my fellow GnWs. The link match-up is tough, but winnable.

 

[Artimus]

It was fun and I placed well even with the horrible MU so, I'm happy.

 

[Artimus]

Not sure of the use, but when a character is in teeter animation, doing a forward air causes it to autocancel. GW especially has a large hitbox, so it looks cool but I've found no uses for it that are viable, yet.

Second, Oil Panic in teams is even better than before. If you release a bucket on shield while on the ground you get a ridiculous pushback. As you're sliding the OP (teehee) still carries the full hitbox, kinda like the glitch in melee, only it doesn't instakill GW too. Release the bucket on your buddies shield with opponents behind you. Profit.


Edit: You can autocancel other moves on edge but it requires special semi-circle input. I'll make a video tonight showing everything.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Edge canceling has always been a thing. It's like an essential tech for every character. You should try bair -> edgecancel -> run off -> aerial/Up-B. especially on platforms.

 

[Artimus]

It's not a normal edge cancel, you stay on the platform without falling off and can just spam the move with no lag in a single spot. I'll make a video, maybe I'm just behind but I've never seen it or anyone besides myself use it. Even dakpo hadn't seen it, so.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Is this what you are talking about?
I remember seeing a vid of this back in PM 1.5 but I can't find it now.

I think it's neat.

 

[Dakpo]

Lol I didn't play until 2.5 so I didn't know about it

 

[Metmetm3t]

I'm pretty sure that trick only works because taunt canceling. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯