Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Artimus]

Yeah I started when2 .5b released. I guess its useless essentially, OH WELL. Looks cool though.

 

[Nemiak temp]

I think that is just edge cancelling. In Brawl the c-stick is registered as A and a direction (where as in melee it's registered as a separate input of its own). You can edge cancel with the C-stick in place because of this. If you're in the right spot and do an aerial at an edge it will cancel without touching the control stick because of the way Brawl reads C-stick inputs. I know this is true but I'm not entirely sure if that is what's going on in that video.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Nah what's happening is like what Artimus described. In order to get taunt canceling to work teeter was made to take priority over everything. And teeter is essentially standing at neutral. So if you land in a way that you would end up teetering you have zero lag. It ends up working a lot like edge canceling but you have to be facing forward and you don't have to fall off.

 

[Burnsy]

Why does Game&Watch turn 3D and have smooth animations while you're throwing him? Looks awkward.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Ask Nintendo. It's been like that since Brawl.

 

[Rᴏb]

I wonder if there could be anything done about that... I think a frame from his falling animation would be a good replacement. It would look janky, but GnW is supposed to.

 

[Dakpo]

I need help with this match-up. Ness momentum is just too strong. Any advice would be golden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT8U0svHMJkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT8U0svHMJk

 

[Yung Mei]

bacon a lot , dont get hit by side b if you get hit, di the **** out of that, bacon a lot, dont try and hit him out of his upB if he launches himself, wait til he stops for the punish, and bacon a lot


thats all ive got, my bud plays one hell of a ness, so ill provide better insight in the future
also, i didn't see a single gatling >

 

[Metmetm3t]

In neutral Ness can't play the ranged game with G&W. Horizontally his aerials lose to ours, and PK Fire wall has holes in it. Besides just punishing the endlag you can actually hit air PK Fire in some situations and keep going. It happened in your video at 6:07. And triggering PK Fire on bacon is the best. But if you get in close he starts to use more Dairs, jabs and FSmashes which are all hella safe. So I think you want to keep your time in the mid-close range at a minimum. And kind of cool it out from a safe spot waiting for him to throw out a bad Fair or Side-B. You also can't get to comfortable throwing Chef around either though. A lot of his punishes come from him DJCing and being in your face before you could recover from bacon. Plus it reduces your chances of cutting it in on him when you get the opportunity.

When getting combo'd by Ness you have to keep in mind that his mess is all up and down. And he is basically praying for a Dair to start it all off. So if you can get away from situations where he gets the opportunity to Dair it ruins him. Meanwhile if he has to Uair you, the only thing he can do if you get high and away after that is DJ Bair, Fair or Up-B. Obviously Bair is terrifying though so you have to be on the lookout, but your DI was not exceptional in that match and I think you could have saved a lot of % in some situations.

When he's recovering his Up-B is basically like a firefox that goes even further and always edgecancels. Plus it's got suck a **** on the streets knockback, so you have to give it respect all day. I even think he can go to the ledge from above it in this game too so if he's recovering high you basically have to find a spot and just keep mid-stage advantage. If he's recovering low though you can work with him. He's worse that G&W when it comes to trying to sweetspot the ledge so he's basically always going to be trying to run to a platform so you should try to cover that option before anything else. If he's too low for that you can probably take the ledge and get a free Fair or Btilt on him. Not Nair though because he has no landing lag. It's harder than it sounds but if you are out there and get a chance to bucket gimp him make sure you go for his ass (back side). That's his target and he can't hit it if you're in the way. Anywhere else and as you saw you just get a piece of the tail and then get embarrassed/hit.

Other than that just stay on point, you know. His kill moves are grab (on punish), Fsmash (on bait), and Bair (on zone) all of which can be avoided for a while so you could live for a while if you stay away from his game. You died like twice while he was in spawn invincibility so pay closer attention to how to run from him.

Oh, I forgot about Nair. It's like a weaker, slower Peach Nair. So I think he ends up using it to carry opponents especially when they are DIing away expecting Fair or something. Just don't get caught by that **** close to the ground. If it look like he's over-baiting going for Dair or Fair you can escape with Up-B.

Edit: also watch this video:

Everyone going up against Ness should have watched this video at least once.

 

[Juushichi]

Excellent.

One of the other things about Ness is even though his AoC (Area of Control) is not very large, he does have some pretty good grounded mobility with his initial dash. His dash forward vs our dash back I believe closes space in his favor. So always keep aware of your stage positioning. If you can visualize being underneath a platform on Battlefield (let's say the left side), Ness can actually cover all of that grounded space with a DJC aerial. iirc, he could also cover jump back with a fair, but that's neither here nor there. The point is made. Try not to allow yourself to get cornered and do those things that m3t talked about.

If you wanna test it out on your own, I would suggest picking ness and trying to cover angles with nair/fair and bair under one of the low platforms on battlefield. It'll also get you used to how certain moves hit.

 

[jtm94]

I still derp with G&W here and there.

I've worked on a lot of my fundamentals and my G&W has gotten exponentially better. I guess I was never reacting fast enough, but so many moves set up into Nair and it is amazing.

Does anyone actually go for dair meteor? I used to be better at landing it, but the hitbox feels so obscure and I just use dair on stage, then footstool to edgeguard if I can.

Also used to think bacon was bad, still think it could be a lot better, but I just wasn't using it enough. YOu gotta toss MASS AMMOUNTS at them, but it yields some really awkward combos like SH double bacon, dtilt enemy into bacon, follow up with fair, dair, etc.

 

[Dakpo]

I still derp with G&W here and there.

I've worked on a lot of my fundamentals and my G&W has gotten exponentially better. I guess I was never reacting fast enough, but so many moves set up into Nair and it is amazing.

Does anyone actually go for dair meteor? I used to be better at landing it, but the hitbox feels so obscure and I just use dair on stage, then footstool to edgeguard if I can.

Also used to think bacon was bad, still think it could be a lot better, but I just wasn't using it enough. YOu gotta toss MASS AMMOUNTS at them, but it yields some really awkward combos like SH double bacon, dtilt enemy into bacon, follow up with fair, dair, etc.

I steal a lot of kills with Dair.
Welcome to the bacon metagame. Start trying to use pan frame traps now ;D

 

[jtm94]

I'll work on landing it more efficiently in that case.

frying pan frame traps?

 

[Nemiak temp]

Refresh invincibility - ledgehop dair - charge fsmash. 90% Of people panick after getting meteored and will get hit by your fsmash :^)

 

[Artimus]

I'll work on landing it more efficiently in that case.

frying pan frame traps?

My three uses for pan hitbox.
1. You can chase a pan hit into another pan hit relatively easily.
2. Pan hit into JCG/DCG because if they DI down they will normally shield to avoid another hit or bacon.
3. Semi-spike edgeguarding. Run offstage, pan hit will kill most characters. If you want to be fancy, wavebounce it.

Edit: Run off dair is great.

 

[Yung Mei]

from the ledge, if your opponent is near the ledge you can
Jump Away>Wavebouce bacon-> pan hit-> gatling

**** works, but sometimes they fly into the bacon which sux

 

[jtm94]

I don't mess with wavebouncing.

I was trying to pan AT the edge, but some chars can still recover. Pan doesn't gimp unless you're like dropzoning or something.

 

[Dakpo]

I don't mess with wavebouncing.

I was trying to pan AT the edge, but some chars can still recover. Pan doesn't gimp unless you're like dropzoning or something.

What is Pan AT? "AT" generally stands for advanced technique and I'm not sure what a pan advanced technique is.

from the ledge, if your opponent is near the ledge you can
Jump Away>Wavebouce bacon-> pan hit-> gatling

2 things
1. It would be much easier to B reverse the pan instead of Wavebounce with it. It's a lot easier to land than a B-reverse and a lot easier to execute than a wavebounce. It's also a large commitment if you wavebounce since you have to be a character length closer.

2. Can you show me a video of you or someone gatling in a useful situation? I don't think I'm grasping how good it is. It seems pretty mediocre.

 

[Yung Mei]

i can provide a few matches where i use it a lot, thats the most i can do for you

and wavebouncing is just for mindgames, people dont expect **** like wavebouncing back onstage instead of the usual options

 

[Metmetm3t]

What is Pan AT? "AT" generally stands for advanced technique and I'm not sure what a pan advanced technique is.

jtm was trying to emphasize the word at in his sentence, like "in the same location as," not advanced technique. He was describing how the semi spike on pan is usually not strong enough to gimp from that location. He's right, dtilt is a lot safer and more effective in those situations.

2 things
1. It would be much easier to B reverse the pan instead of Wavebounce with it. It's a lot easier to land than a B-reverse and a lot easier to execute than a wavebounce. It's also a large commitment if you wavebounce since you have to be a character length closer.

Once again I think you miss read what Meiling was saying. He was talking about attacking someone who is on the stage edgeguarding while he is on the ledge. There would be absolutely no reason to B reverse here since you would already be facing the stage. The Wavebounce is meant to give the impression that he's just trying to ledge refresh when he suddenly wavebounces and lands a hit. My problem with this strategy is that it assumes that they were just going to let you ledge refresh because by the time you start the wavebounce you've lost all of you ledge invul, and any poke means you are out in the middle of the ocean with no jumps.

2. Can you show me a video of you or someone gatling in a useful situation? I don't think I'm grasping how good it is. It seems pretty mediocre.

Meiling posted this collection of gifs in another thread: http://smashbrosuniverse.tumblr.com/post/73145560928/pm-mr-game-watchs-or-watches-im-completely

From my experience gatling is pretty situational in it's application because you have to hit with a deep, meaty dash attack, which is quite high risk. But if you can catch an opponent on the defensive the reward is so tremendous it cannot be ignored.

 

[Yung Mei]

darkmetroid hit it right on the dot

its basically just an additional mixup/mindgame option, but like he said, if they read you, youre ****ed because youll lose the invincibility before you even make it back onto the stage, and they can just slap your ****

also, heres the updated one with video links
http://smashbrosuniverse.tumblr.com/post/75880899855/smashbrosuniverse-pm-mr-game-watchs-or

 

[GeZ]

I'd also like to omit that most AT that people call difficult is easy as hell if you just practice. Go into the lab and practice Wave Bouncing different normals with your character of choice for an hour. You'll come out being able to do it consistently. That's what I do with everything I want to be able to do consistently.

 

[Juushichi]

You can't wavebounce normal moves.

Played a lot this weekend, but not in tournament:

Holy **** when you're not playing on point Wario is so ridiculous. Played a FT5 with Carls and got 5-0'd. Worst part is that the games were mad close and it was a few stupid neutral decisions that really felt the difference in most of them. Didn't even get hit by Side-B much. Oh well.

vs Puff is still pretty free, but not as free as I thought it was. Most Puffs in the area allowed me to dance around their shield, but Abu kept usmashing me OoS with bad (read most) GnW pressure.

vs Marth felt oddly easier, but still stupid hard. Once you juggle him it feels pretty good, but up to that point is hard.

vs Peach, still hitler.

Maybe it's just me, but I still really hate stages like Stadium 2, Smashville and sometimes FD for Game and Watch. It feels like his mobility is just too bad for those stages vs most of the faster characters.

 

[GeZ]

You can't wavebounce normal moves.

I misspoke, meant to say specials, but the point still stands.

 

[Dakpo]

jtm was trying to emphasize the word at in his sentence, like "in the same location as," not advanced technique. He was describing how the semi spike on pan is usually not strong enough to gimp from that location. He's right, dtilt is a lot safer and more effective in those situations.



Once again I think you miss read what Meiling was saying. He was talking about attacking someone who is on the stage edgeguarding while he is on the ledge. There would be absolutely no reason to B reverse here since you would already be facing the stage. The Wavebounce is meant to give the impression that he's just trying to ledge refresh when he suddenly wavebounces and lands a hit. My problem with this strategy is that it assumes that they were just going to let you ledge refresh because by the time you start the wavebounce you've lost all of you ledge invul, and any poke means you are out in the middle of the ocean with no jumps.



Meiling posted this collection of gifs in another thread: http://smashbrosuniverse.tumblr.com/post/73145560928/pm-mr-game-watchs-or-watches-im-completely

From my experience gatling is pretty situational in it's application because you have to hit with a deep, meaty dash attack, which is quite high risk. But if you can catch an opponent on the defensive the reward is so tremendous it cannot be ignored.

Thank you. I understand everything now

 

[Maestro_]

Bump for noobs.

Mods plz sticky.

 

[jtm94]

Please help me fill this out all, trying to complete it as moderately accurate as possible.

I know some MUs won't be agreed on, if there is enough disagreement they can be left blank and we will ask the character on the other side.

I filled it in based on my moderate knowledge of some characters, but I don't get to face every char a lot.

green: advantageous
light green: slightly advantageous
grey: Even or tbd
yellow: slightly disadvantageous
Orange: disadvantageous

 

[Metmetm3t]

Okay jtm here's my opinions:

Spoiler: long matchup list

Mario: even or +1. closer to even. very high confidence
Luigi: even or +1. closer to +1. very high confidence
Peach: even or -1. closer to -1. low confidence
Bowser: even. moderate confidence
Yoshi: nope
Wario: nope
DK: +1 or +2. closer to +1. high confidence
Diddy: nope
Link: -1 or -2. closer to -2. moderate confidence
Tink: -1 or -2. closer to -1. moderate confidence
Zelda: even. low confidence
Sheik: -1 or -2. low confidence
Ganon: +1 or even. low confidence.
Samus: nope
ZSS: -1. low confidence.
Kirby: -2 if the chain throw is real
MK: -1
DDD: even. low confidence
Fox: -2 or -1. closer to -1. moderate confidence
Falco: -2 or -1. closer to -1. moderate confidence
Wolf: -1 or even. closer to even. moderate confidence
Pika: even or +1. closer to +1. high confidence
Jiggs: +1 or +2. moderate confidence.
Mew2: nope
Squirtle: nope
Ivysaur: -1 or -2. closer to -2. moderate confidence
Zard: even or +1. closer to +1. moderate confidence
Lucario: nope
CF: even or +1. closer to even. moderate confidence
Ness: +1. low confidence
Lucas: even or +1. closer to +1. high confidence
ICs: nope
Marth: -2. high confidence
Roy: even or -1. closer to even. high confidence.
Ike: -1 or -2. low confidence
Pit: nope
Olimar: +1 low confidence
ROB: +1 low confidence
Sonic: +1 low confidence
Snake: -1 or -2 low confidence

also, if you can, don't use gray for even & unknown because they are very different.

 

[jtm94]

Thank you greatly, updated with purple as the unknown MU color.

I didn't fill too many unknown with grey, they just seemed like they would be fairly even so that's what I let it ride as, I have already went over pretty much all of them and I play GnW a lot so I knew a lot of the MUs from first-hand experience.

The new list

 

[Nintendude]

Hello GW players. Can anyone share insight on when to use u-throw vs. b-throw vs. f-throw for comboing? It seems like they all work to some capacity, and there's the obvious DI mix-up that GW can do since his throws all look the same.

 

[Juushichi]

Honestly, it's all dependent on where you're at and what you're throwing. I know it sounds pretty vague. Do know however, that back throw will usually send straight up if a person is going to DI in front of you. It's something you honestly just have to get a feel for.

I use all 3 vs fast-fallers if I think it's going to get me something into a re-grab.

Okay jtm here's my opinions:
[REDACTED - Read m3t's post for his, lel]
also, if you can, don't use gray for even & unknown because they are very different.

Spoiler: long matchup list

Mario: even or -1. closer to even. low confidence
Luigi: even or -1. closer to even. high confidence
Peach: -1 or -2. closer to -2. moderate confidence
Bowser: nope
Yoshi: nope
Wario: -1 or -2. closer to -1. high confidence
DK: nope
Diddy: even or -1. closer to even. moderate confidence
Link: -1 or -2. closer to -2. moderate confidence
Tink: -1 or -2. closer to -2. low confidence
Zelda: +1. moderate confidence
Sheik: even or -1. closer to even. high confidence
Ganon: +1 or +2. moderate confidence.
Samus: nope
ZSS: even. low confidence.
Kirby: nope
MK: -1. low confidence
DDD: nope
Fox: -2 or -1. closer to -2. moderate confidence
Falco: nope
Wolf: even. moderate confidence
Pika: even or +1. closer to even. high confidence
Jiggs: +1. high confidence.
Mew2: nope
Squirtle: nope
Ivysaur: -1 or -2. closer to -1. low confidence *Stage Dependent
Zard: even or +1. closer to +1. moderate confidence
Lucario: nope
CF: +1 or +2. closer to +1. moderate confidence
Ness: even. low confidence
Lucas: nope
ICs: -1. low confidence
Marth: -2. high confidence
Roy: nope
Ike: -1 or -2, closer to -1. moderate confidence
Pit: -1 or even. low confidence
Olimar: nope
ROB: nope
Sonic: -1 low confidence
Snake: -1 or even moderate confidence

 

[Nintendude]

Ok so does u-throw knockback with no DI = b-throw knockback with DI forwards = f-throw knockback with DI backwards?

 

[Artimus]

Yes, essentially. I normally use backthrow near the edge and catch bad DI all the time. Free Nair kill. I don't use fthrow unless I'm desperate for a kill, normally against spacies for an edgeguard. Dthrow on platforms, infinite regrabs! Also down smash.

 

[jtm94]

Thank your for your input!

I have pretty much normalized the GnW MU portion. The only things I would like to figure are Squirtle and Pit. The rest are pretty figured out. I would say we can beat out Squirtle's approaches, but I haven't it played it all that much. I believe chair just ruins SideB and DTilt may as well. Bubble may be problematic, but I didn't really struggle with any character specific things besides him being small.

i too use EVERY throw against spacies. It's a total DI trap, and tbh I don't even know which one I'm going to use. Just like... left feels good, they thing I'm throwing right because at edge so they DI to the right, end up going nowhere, land nair.

 

[Dakpo]

Halp plz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpAxicKAk8

 

[Juushichi]

Dakpo, get your butt to skype so I can yell at you.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Halp plz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpAxicKAk8

What's so bad is I don't even think you played that matchup wrong. MK is just good and Infinity plays him so safe.

For the most part you respected his options pretty well. The worst mistake I caught you making was probably expecting him to move around when Infi was standing still constantly. MK standing still is so strong.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo, get your butt to skype so I can yell at you.

Im pretty scared

 

[Juushichi]

Im pretty scared

I didn't get to yell at you via Skype, I ended up being hella tired. Instead I wrote up a lil' something-something for you. You did not do a bad job. Here is my critique/analysis:


Dakpo vs Infinity Analysis:

Game 1 - FD [L]
[Notices]

Issue - Neutral vs MK Dash Back
GnW aerials are laggy, but his ground movement is pretty okay. Make your objective closing space and choking away stage control. Eventually MK has to attack or try to cross over. Figure out the pattern.
MK's ground lead ins seem to be dash in -> Grab / Dash -> Dtilt / Dash -> (x)Attack?
The latter two get beaten by CC dtilt, I believe. The former can be outspaced.

Lesson: If he's not going to take the initiative, take space. Always be mindful of stage position.

Issue - Ledge vs MK jump back [x] aerial + wait.
GnW's ledge stall is fine and I'm not entirely sure how well MK can interact w/ ledge opponents. I don't believe he can well, but he's still fast. Mostly, I think they want to wait for you to stick out an option that they can poke/stuff coming off of the ledge.

Lesson: Use the ledge to regain your composure and think actively about how to get off. Or use it to force him to think he needs to get you off of the ledge (the Mew2King). He seems very content to let you stay there.

--- Work on your sweetspots, damnit!

Game 2 - FD [W]
[Notices]
- Already doing both of those things, wow! Fantastic baits in neutral. (Wait on him especially w/ a lead @ ledge, though)
- DI hard up on Dthrow.
- MK finds it hard to sweetspot the ledge w/o a jump present. If he's at ledge height and not grabbing, challenge him there. Dtilt, nair at the ledge, etc. If he goes high, wait like you did.

Bans: FD gone (both won there) / Skyworld / Yoshi's Story / WarioWare. Solid bans.

Game 3 - GHZ [W]
Good patience and baiting. Could again afford to wait at the ledge a tad. Two stocks lost by over-committing here and getting edge trapped. Well done here. Small stage was a benefit.

Game 4 - PS1 [L]
MK Adjusts to dash back dtilt with jump angled dair. He is aggressively chasing you with ftilts. Begins to stuff dtilt with ftilt. Back to his normal ledge trap game which is netting him a lot of damage. Two stock loss. Good CP, I think GnW is not very strong here. His pressure gets broken up well. MK platform camped you a lot. I would ban this before you banned WW or YS. Leaning a lot more towards unbanning YS.

Game 5 - BF [L]
Poor sweet spot kills you again @ Stock 1. Scramble around ledge loses you stock 2. 1st time MK chases you off stage in the entire set @ Stock 3. He takes ~25% for it. Goes back to ledge trap game. Stands about a ledge dash distance away when not doing jump back (x) aerial.

Note: MK is too light for uthrow uair to work at side plat height. Go for meaty nair.

MK really shoots for center stage in the last couple of stocks. He really, really wanted it and would dair towards center stage every time he could.

-----

Overall: Great play. B+, imo.
Result (GF): L 2-3
Analysis: Your ledge play was what lost you this set. I think you lost something like ~10/17 stocks coming off the ledge and into an awaiting MK's attacks. He was more than willing to let you hang yourself as you came off of the ledge, otherwise I thought you held the advantage in every game short of the PS1 loss.

In addition, I feel like you could have played a bit slower and deliberately played a stage control game that choked away MK's options and forced him into moving in ways that you could counter. You did this without the stage position in many times during this set, but you could have pressed this a lot more. MK at the ledge or with his back to the blastzone's best options come when he is high in the air and he seems rather pedestrian coming at the ledge or from below.

I think you could have won this set 3-1.

 

[Nguz95]

Ok so does u-throw knockback with no DI = b-throw knockback with DI forwards = f-throw knockback with DI backwards?

Nintendude, are you going to Xanadu this weekend? I want to ditto your G&W (please!).
Edit: @ Dakpo I know my opinion isn't worth a ton, as my skills aren't worth a ton, but here is a quick observation from the journeyman G&W. In regards to the neutral game, there were many, many instances where MK capitalized on you either not paying attention to him or you committing first. Since MK is a high-speed, low commitment character, each time he baited you put you in a disadvantageous position. The most obvious example of this was at 0:30, when he charged an fsmash in the middle of the stage. Another example, albeit a less obvious one, was at 9:50, where he moved himself within the range of your dashdance to bait you into advancing. What I saw was Infinity dictating the speed of the set. He often knew how you would react in neutral, and he baited you accordingly. There were too many instances where you committed and got punished for it, and not the other way around.The conclusion I would draw from this is that you might want to consider working on your dash dance/bait and punish game in order to better dictate the flow of a match, especially against faster characters.