Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[jtm94]

You can pretty much land a free upsmash, then a grab because most I play try to shield out of being frozen, or airdodge.

 

[Yung Mei]

i do usmash, then usually upB and come down with a dair for extra jank

 

[Metmetm3t]

shield? Aren't they put airborne though.

 

[Soft Serve]

Can i get in the skype group? Im a diddy main but i play gnw a lot, mostly in teams when i need more killing power. Wont have too much to add but i always enjoy readinf disccusions.
Im S0fte.1 On skype iirc.

On saturday i got an 8 hammer in doubles and i walled off the opponent long enough for my ness teammate to get a pk flash to connect as he popped out of the ice. Was pretty cool. I normally just dtilt once or twice then go for a nair as they pop because i still dont know how long they are stuck and how much mashing helps.

 

[Maestro_]

i still dont know how long they are stuck and how much mashing helps.

The time they're in ice is random.

 

[Metmetm3t]

The time is absolutely not random. Without mashing an eight will put your opponent in ice for four seconds. If they mash they can knock it down to probably two seconds or less, depending on their mashing practice and reaction time.

 

[Maestro_]

The time is absolutely not random. Without mashing an eight will put your opponent in ice for four seconds. If they mash they can knock it down to probably two seconds or less, depending on their mashing practice and reaction time.

Apparently I was misinformed.

 

[Metmetm3t]

For future reference the best way to "mash" is actually to spin the control stick. Pressing buttons also helps but x&y count as the same button so only mash one. Same goes for L and R and Z. The C Stick also helps but it has to return to neutral between every mash.

 

[Soft Serve]

The most optimal way is spining the stick and then mashing buttons in a way that you flick the control stick and then press all the face buttons in one swift motion. Thats what Axe taught me and he said it breaks out of wobbles pretty easily.

 

[Hamman88]

Question: Is there any way to differentiate between G&W's throws? One of my favorite kill combos is just D-throw -> D-tilt, and as long as they are unable to tech the throw it's pretty much guaranteed. So my question is is there any way for my opponent to know that I'm going to do a down throw and attempt to tech it, or should they just always be expecting the down throw and try to tech, regardless of the direction of the throw?

 

[Nintendude]

Does the thing where you cancel dash-A into grab or up-smash work if the opponent shields the attack?

 

[Italia06823834]

Does the thing where you cancel dash-A into grab or up-smash work if the opponent shields the attack?

Yes. As long as the first frames of Dash Attack hit something (I assume this means even if it hits things like shy guys). So it's an easy grab if you hit the shield.

 

[Nintendude]

So in other words GW has something that's really similar to a shine grab. People should start using that.

 

[Juushichi]

People already use gatling, Nintendude and it's been discussed since about a year ago.

Gatling grab is something I see Meiling use the most, but I use sparingly because I haven't gotten into the mindset for it. I do use it as an empty cancel sometimes so I don't have to go the distance/animation of a DACUS vs stray awkward hits.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Question: Is there any way to differentiate between G&W's throws? One of my favorite kill combos is just D-throw -> D-tilt, and as long as they are unable to tech the throw it's pretty much guaranteed. So my question is is there any way for my opponent to know that I'm going to do a down throw and attempt to tech it, or should they just always be expecting the down throw and try to tech, regardless of the direction of the throw?

The animations are all exactly identical. But a good player will always attempt to tech because it costs nothing.

 

[jtm94]

I use the gattling a fair amount, but the grab not as much. It isn't busted by any means, but it's pretty good, especially against the characters he will gain a lot from grabs against.

 

[Soft Serve]

I use it sometimes when i run at them planning on just like dtilting and they sheild early. Its not quite a shine grab as it has more set up but its pretty good.

 

[Yung Mei]

sometimes theyll try to crouch cancel the dash attack for gatling, and im like, "nah son i just fanny tussled you" and grab them instead, dacgrab is great

 

[Bambi_]

So what do you all think of a proposed buff to Chef with better control and less randomness, which would allow it to be used in combos, sorta like close range Pit arrows? I'm always a fan of less randomness (except for Judge, because it's hilarious) and this could help smooth over some holes in his combo game.

Basically, I don't find the current Chef all that useful. Occasionally I'll use the up angled bacons, but even then it isn't entirely reliable. Even when restricting it to the top angles it still has too much variation to be useful, and the top angles aren't steep enough to reach directly above G&W, especially because the bacons come out in front of him. The middle angles are completely inaccessible because you can still get angles in the top/bottom section while holding nothing. The bottom angles are rarely useful, as they aren't shallow enough to get significantly in front of G&W while moving forward in the air. They're okay for approaching, but there's a lot of variation there. Tightening each "choice" while spreading the choices out so that you can hit straight up and hit lower/further would be very beneficial to the move. Up angles would allow combos to transition to the ground (for maybe a jab -> grab or a ftilt), and provide some minor juggling. Forward and down angles could reach far away opponents or hit them out of the air as they approach.

Also, the projectiles are really slow and not in a Wolf/Luca space-controly way. More so in the "Oh, I'll just get out of the way of that" way. So if they were faster/less laggy/traveled further, that'd be sick too.

Current Chef:

Spoiler

Proposed Chef:

Spoiler

Cutesy diagrams means you have to agree with me.

 

[jtm94]

I really would like if they could indeed be controlled a tad more, OR if they just had a more standard lowerish angle that people couldn't just run under when they feel like.

ALSO, if bacon didn't disappear as fast I would love the move A LOT more. The problem is that it is out for a while, but it flies pretty high up in the air so the air time means by the time it approaches the opponent it has almost disappeared. IT basically falls down to his level and disappears. The problem with this is that the most effect use of bacon is to short hop double bacon it, and whilst jumping the bacon comes out even higher and sometimes disappears before it even hits the opponent.

I would be happy with something as small as bacon lasting longer and nothing else, we could see if that makes it more useful, then start changing it's angles.

 

[Bambi_]

I just spent like an hour spamming bacon at bots/on my own. Bacon info dump leggooo:

Repeated Bacons

• You can hold the special button down to bacon repeatedly. This is limited to 5 bacons. (Each individual bacon can be aimed differently).
• You can press the button twice quickly to put out bacons. They come out faster than when held, but it's limited to 2 bacons.
• Letting the move end/starting it back up takes a while. This also means it's hard to act out of/into.
• Landing while baconing (either with repeated or a single press) will cancel the move and you must endure landing lag before being able to start the move up again or perform a different move.

Bacon aiming

• Holding up while baconing restricts the aim to the top three angles.
• Holding down while baconing does the same for the bottom three angles.
• Not holding anything allows for any angle, including the top and bottom three.

Short Hop Double Bacon (SHDB)

• Can be performed by either holding special or pressing it twice quickly, though holding requires near frame perfect timing. Aiming the bacons down gets max range.
• If performed from a dash, by the time G&W touches the ground, the bacons are almost behind him. Using a fair is faster, safer, and has more range. When the bacons land, they are significantly in front of G&W, however.
• This can be useful. It means you have two hitboxes out in front of you after you land, though you are vulnerable before they get down. Attacking into the bacons with a strong hit as they land will cancel the hit into the bacons, setting up the opponent (who is probably confused about why they didn't go flying) for another hit. You can also wait for the bacons to land and grab on their shield or whatever, but due to how slow the bacons travel, it's very easy to avoid/punish.

Other Uses

• A stream of bacons all at the same angle hits the opponent fast enough that they can't get out, especially if off stage or in the air.
• Up aimed bacons can set up an aerial if the opponent is above you.
• Putting out random bacons in the neutral game creates simply a lot of hitboxes. It's hard to get through them, and challenging an opponent who for some reason entered the field of meat puts you at a large advantage.

The Bad

• Even when you get the optimal bottom angles on a SHDB, they still are behind G&W at their peak (when you land).
• You need a lot of space to start up a SHDB. More than what you can usually expect in an average neutral situation.
• An up aimed SHB will despawn before it reaches the ground.
• Angles between the top and bottom are completely inaccessible since the move can also chose any of the angles in the up/down set and the middle set itself is very broad, making these angles unreliable.
• Both of the angled sets are still very wide, making them unreliable.
• It is impossible to reach directly above yourself with a bacon.
• It is impossible to reach directly in front of yourself with a bacon.
• The bacons travel slowly, making them comparatively poor for approaching.
• All of the angles are fairly high up when you take into account the starting distance from the ground (this is how high the bacon comes in, and then it travels along the fairly high arcs) and any additional height gained from jumping. At any angle, it's pretty easy to just run under bacons before they reach the ground, and G&W will still be in the baconing animation because of its long ending lag.

The Suggested Improvements

• As per my last post, tightening the angles within the sets while spreading the sets themselves out solves a lot of these problems. You would be able to reach in front of yourself, above yourself, and have better control over the bacon, expanding its usage as a comboing tool.
• Making the bacons travel faster and despawn later would also give them better range/flexibility/viability.
• Any reduction in lag to the move would allow combos to flow in and out of it more often.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Nice post. kinda sums up 25 pages of bacon discussion, though it doesn't cover Juu's infamous "melee sized meat"

 

[Bambi_]

Nintendude (aka the Baconator) reppin hardcore right now. Relieving all of my doubts in bacon this character. GREAT ****, man.

 

[CaptainKirby]

Nintendude, tho'... For real.

Dat G&W.

 

[Maestro_]

 

[jtm94]

I really liked what I saw, now to emulate.

He uses UpB A LOT, Chillin started to punish his dair approaches, but it was working really well because Chillin was definitely trying to be the aggressor.

He only really opted for bair at the edge, and pretty much started combos with dair or dtilt into a slew of uairs, UpB, into either more dair, uair, into fair and get the KO with nair. Bacon wasn't doing much. He also implemented the UpB bucket stall to wait out invincibility.

 

[Grey Belnades]

I heard the news. Gdubs is gonna make it guys.

 

[Soft Serve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtgDPTdA1XA&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRN_IcXutI9zQg70UAT64kU
i think this set vs Cyrain is like THE what to do in the fox matchup. He spaces well, had really smart recoverys, good stage choices, and punished stupid hard. Thats what GnW does in every matchup but still.

 

[Nintendude]

Thanks guys. I'm pretty happy with how this weekend went. I'm even more happy that my ideas worked in practice. 2nd isn't too shabby for the first time trying a new main

 

[&Y_]

Brace yourself New GDubs mains are coming

At least the ditto is really fun. GnW bodies GnW really hard.

Thanks guys. I'm pretty happy with how this weekend went. I'm even more happy that my ideas worked in practice. 2nd isn't too shabby for the first time trying a new main

Great job! I'm sure as you play him more you'll find some of the sillier things he can do.

 

[Soft Serve]

In melee GnW can bucket bacon, although its stupid hard. Is that even possible in pm?

@ Nintendude Good **** dude. What do you think happened differently after you reset the bracket? was it something you weren't doing anymore or did chillin just adapt really hard? I noticed he was controlling and punishing your options coming down a lot better in the last 4 games. He also started playing more patiently and didn't SD so much. You're punishes and edge guards were still on point, You just didn't get to be in that situation as much I think.

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't see enough side b nintendude
TRUST THE RNG GODS

 

[Crezyte]

I liked how @ Nintendude used up-b to recover before jumping almost every time. Its something Imma have to start doing. Still trying to figure out which matchups I want to go GnW for and which I want Ike for. Course, spacies are so fun to combo with GnW so those MU aren't hard to decide :3

 

[jtm94]

GnW CANNOT bucket his own bacon.

I will stream some good GnW tonight at http://www.twitch.tv/teambladebreakers/
My tag name is JESUS, I love playing GnW, gonna try out a lot of the stuff Mike was doing.

 

[Bambi_]

Horrible ideas:

• Make bacon and oil panic both absorbable
• Give a double G&W team a second or two of down time
• Pain

 

[Crezyte]

Horrible ideas:

• Make bacon and oil panic both absorbable
• Give a double G&W team a second or two of down time
• Pain

actually Zelda + GnW team is probably better than double Watch. If Zelda Dins 3 times in about the same place you get an almost OHKO bucket. So basically you could do that between stocks and grab random zone control dins during match. Its so much fun!

 

[jtm94]

On a serious note I don't mind team GnW Mario because fireballs do 8% and OHKO.

Did anyone see my stream? I had some alright sets with GnW. I have found out that I REALLY don't like Olimar as GnW.

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't know how to fight olimar to begin with
I think I do better as GnW vs SS's Olimar than I do as Diddy even though my diddy is a lot better, just because I still have no idea what to do in the MU and I can't get punished as hard as GnW since he doesn't fall so fast.

Its still such a weird matchup, I try to just space fairs and CC dtilt and then I get grabbed trying to spotdodge a blue or something. D-throw had guarenteed followups even with proper DI, I didn't try Up/away and trying to up-b out of it though. Edge guarding Olimar isn't to bad though, I was just grabbing the ledge and drop-zone nairing him out of the tether pretty often

 

[Deleted member]

Well speaking of teams with GnW
Dakpo and I beat Denti and Awestin in WFs and GFs of doubles yesterday, TL + GnW vs. Ivy + Ness

Toonlink may poop on gnw but they work together in teams very nicely due to their large amount of stage control and crazy kill power

 

[jtm94]

Oooh, I am trying HARD to work on my Toon Link.

I cannot be above Olimar at ALL. Like, it is the worst thing ever. I just can't approach because of the grab, and uair/upsmash. IT is really hard to tell if he's charging downsmash, upsmash, fsmash, so I get punished for jumping into charged smashes that I think are safe.

LASTLY, I have absolutely no idea when Olimar is grabbing or has grabbed me. I really can't tell, and it is the worst. Olimar's fair was beating out my fair, I also can't be offstage against him because of no safe recovery route. Going high nets me uair to the face, to the edge lands fair to the face.