Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Yung Mei]

2.5b gnw was perf imo in terms of character, just needs ^weight/ slight tech change

 

[GeZ]

Well it kind of was a stupid design choice.
Why buff GnW in aspects hes already good in when he still has ****ing awful attributes that need to be addressed *COUGH tech rolls/weight COUGH*

I just didn't like that it would occasionally pull the opponent out of your pressure or ground game to fling them away from all the meaty knockback. It was still fun though, and I'd rather it wasn't removed. And they buffed up rolls and shield in the last patch, which really helped.

 

[Dakpo]

Buff throw speed...its literally the only thing he needs to change

 

[GeZ]

Buff throw speed...its literally the only thing he needs to change

Pretty much. He's solid as hell and really doesn't need anything right now.

 

[Metmetm3t]

release notes post:

- Weight slightly increased
- Dash lengthened
- Forward Smash loop hitboxes removed, now possesses a weaker late flub hitbox
- Neutral B uses Heavy Landing lag (4 frames) instead of instantly switching to Wait upon landing
- Super food removed
- 3 hammer's shield damage reduced

I think most of us already knew what was coming. Anyway thank god for the death of super food.

 

[jtm94]

I like the weight increase C:

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

RIP Super Food.

I haven't gotten a chance to play against anyone since the 3.0 drop, but I'm really looking forward to playing with these changes. They don't seem unreasonable, though I will miss occasionally landing super food and having my friends ***** about it. Now he's the only one with a random kill tool with range (Gordo). Oh well.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Just to break it down his old weight was 70 and now it's 75, which is what it was in Brawl.

This makes him the tied for the 4th lightest character in the game:
Jiggz (60)
Metaknight (70)
Kirby (74)
Fox/G&W (75)

MK and Fox are FFers though so they can't really be treated the same.

 

[Jacob29]

How are you supposed to approach with g&w?

His only good move seemed to be FAir, and apart from that I would just get hit over and over again.

 

[Juushichi]

Bacon... I guess.

Bacon, Fair and Nair.

 

[&Y_]

I like to throw out lots of bacon and turtles. The Bair is really good.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Approach is a swear word in smash. There isn't really a way to "approach" with any character. The best you can hope for is "pressure" which means either you annoy your opponent until they approach you, or you force them to play so defensive you can make an easy read on them.

To that effect G&W has Chef obviously. But he can also use Bair and Dair in awkward ways to piss them off while also zoning in some Dtilts, Ftitls and jabs. Once you get the read that's when go in with a Fair, Nair or a grab.

 

[Metà]

bacon is #1 offensive and defensive move at all times

 

[jtm94]

I think I try to approach with fair too often which is why I get got. I always think the hitbox lasts the whole time he's holding the credit card, but it doesn't.... I still feel some of his moves are kinda awkwardly laggy, but ohwell.

And one thing that I wish they kept was at least the different shaped food from chef, they were just cool projectiles. Bacon alone really doesn't seem that daunting alone..

 

[&Y_]

There's still shrimp and ham in the mix. It's just harder to tell because there isn't giant food flying everywhere.

 

[jtm94]

The first time I used him in 3.0 I really only had bacon, the other stuff wasn't in there.
Idk, I really like G&W and would consider him a secondary, but I've never had much success with Chef. Compared to half the other in-game projectiles it is just meh.. I kinda wish it went in front of him better, and short hopping covers awkward angles I've never felt useful. Without super bacon I really don't like the move.

 

[Juushichi]

You just gotta spam it.

As a singular projectile it's really mediocre and it has poor coverage. I don't really like it. Who knows, maybe I can get support and testing for bigger chef pieces as a default (like Melee chef pieces big).

 

[&Y_]

You can control the angle a fair amount with the direction of the tick when you press B, making it go more in front of you or more up. I find the bacon incredibly useful for setting up combos and kill moves. Throw out some bacon at a safe distance and if they take a hit dacusing in for the kill tends to work well I've found.

 

[jtm94]

Hmm, I can try it. His dacus has always been a pain for me. It will take a long time for me to get that consistently, but I doubt the bacon stuns long enough to land the dacus, it seems ridiculously situational.

I know you can angle the bacon, but it still doesn't angle well. And the fact that it flies up means it can be ran under at first and doesn't become effective until a wall is sorta built. It doesn't do any good offstage and I've never found situations where it was really all that useful besides just being sorta annoying and building mediocre %. I do like the frying pan a lot though, it has potential uses. The low angle is really nice.

I guess bacon is just a moderate zoning/spacing tool for now to stuff some approaches.

 

[&Y_]

I have R bound to attack. Game and Watch only has one frame to do it, so I don't think you can do it with Z. It just takes time to get the timing right. I tend to think about doing the inputs simultaneously.

 

[jtm94]

Yeah I have R as attack as well. You can use A to do it, but it takes some getting used to and R is just easier to learn.

 

[Yung Mei]

>not using cstick only

max pleb

 

[Metmetm3t]

You just gotta spam it.

As a singular projectile it's really mediocre and it has poor coverage. I don't really like it. Who knows, maybe I can get support and testing for bigger chef pieces as a default (like Melee chef pieces big).

I'd like to see that, but I'd be worried because move is so spamable already that it dominates his matchups vs. big guys. Making them bigger would likely only serve to strengthen his matchups that he already wins and do little for him against the characters he loses to.

 

[jtm94]

What would you propose could help then?

 

[Metmetm3t]

I've played around with the thought of making bacon just travel faster. I think it would allow G&W to use the move more aggressively against character's like Link or Marth who tend to be able to camp or zone G&W out. I also think it would help remove some of G&W's ability to camp with the move which is pretty degenerate and unfun imho. But for similar reasons my idea could be just as scary as Juu's.

I guess one crazy idea is do my change and Juu's change but remove SH double bacon, or force G&W to bacon to always alternate between low and high so he can't have two bacon following similar trajectories. But now I'm just throwing stuff against the wall. Chef and G&W are solid already and radical changes are not necessary.

 

[jtm94]

He's just an interesting character. There are few(if any) characters with a highly developed meta, and it could be G&W is just behind. I also can't tell if he's lacking or not. It makes me sad Oil Panic doesn't have the Melee properties. There are a lot of amazing things that transferred over, but G&W lost Oil Panic's full power? I don't get that. I'd also be super pumped if bacon traveled faster. It doesn't even need to do a lot of damage, as long as it retains a slight amount of hitstun and can interrupt regular attacks I think it would have more uses. As it is now I really try to short-hop double bacon A LOT, and it really is underwhelming, I feel like I'm better off dash-dance camping or zoning with SHFFL bairs, dtilts and ftilts.

 

[&Y_]

I find Oil Panic to be incredibly useful. Not only is Bucket braking broken and amazing, the fact that you can release it after one projectile gives the move wonderful utility. If a character is trying to approach behind a fireball or laser the bucket can easily stop them in there tracks. That said its power at full charge is also really nice.

 

[Metmetm3t]

He's just an interesting character. There are few(if any) characters with a highly developed meta, and it could be G&W is just behind. I also can't tell if he's lacking or not. It makes me sad Oil Panic doesn't have the Melee properties. There are a lot of amazing things that transferred over, but G&W lost Oil Panic's full power? I don't get that. I'd also be super pumped if bacon traveled faster. It doesn't even need to do a lot of damage, as long as it retains a slight amount of hitstun and can interrupt regular attacks I think it would have more uses. As it is now I really try to short-hop double bacon A LOT, and it really is underwhelming, I feel like I'm better off dash-dance camping or zoning with SHFFL bairs, dtilts and ftilts.

What "melee" properties are you talking about? Oil panic is godlike in P:M.

G&W as a whole is a solid character that has been pretty thoroughly explored. If you are getting beat up and punished for Chef or Fair it's because you haven't gotten the hang of his spacing yet. You should watch some videos or practice around with different things to get an idea of where his strong zones. You could also try working on your movement. Movement is always going to have better results than trying to just zone out with projectiles or attacks. It usually means the difference between getting and dishing out the punishment.

 

[jtm94]

In Melee the max damage and knockback it could output was 300%, but it is only 50-60% in P:M. It doesn't seem like it matters since it will rarely reach that, but it is significant if you can catch a spirit bomb, or fully charged shadow ball/aura sphere.

Bucket braking is super nice, and it can charge up to some nice damage, but still I don't get why they didn't make it like it was in Melee.(unless they couldn't) And To be honest partial release is "ok," but it isn't broken or even that amazing, just sort of useful.

I guess I just need to work on his spacing better. Maybe it's the people I play who make it seem less effective than it is. I'll keep trying him out.

 

[&Y_]

The fact that it only does 60% or so at 3 charges doesn't matter as at that point it's basically an instakill. If the bucket gets 2 or 3 charges and the hit lands then your opponent should either be dead or set up for an edge guard. The percent is meaningless.

 

[Metmetm3t]

See this post: Absorbable Projectiles?

Oil Panic does not need to do 300% damage it's already a guaranteed kill when it does 60%. In general you shouldn't even be going for a full bucket unless your opponent just gives it to you for free. A stage 2 bucket on any projectile not in F tier should probably be good enough for a kill at 90%. Going to stage 3 basically just makes the move more disjointed and lowers the kill percent to 40-60.

 

[jtm94]

But they've ported over more insignificant things, so I didn't get why not this...
I know the different kinds, 3 dins fire OHKOs Zelda. 3 fireballs from Mario is also OHKO.

 

[Metà]

guys, chef is already good enough because of the PAN hitbox, don't you guys know? 4 frames of landing lag on a move that comes out fairly quickly. that's like, peach status. abuse that pan hitbox and it's priority/lack of endlag to shield pressure and bully your opponent

also, bacon is great for continuing vertical combos that wouldn't otherwise be possible. just wait until apex 2014 when you see a gnw get top 8 using bacon almost solely as an approach tool




that player is me btw. i ****

 

[&Y_]

guys, chef is already good enough because of the PAN hitbox, don't you guys know? 4 frames of landing lag on a move that comes out fairly quickly. that's like, peach status. abuse that pan hitbox and it's priority/lack of endlag to shield pressure and bully your opponent

also, bacon is great for continuing vertical combos that wouldn't otherwise be possible. just wait until apex 2014 when you see a gnw get top 8 using bacon almost solely as an approach tool




that player is me btw. i ****

I've found you can combo bacon into itself with a combination of skillet spikes down tilts and the bacon itself. The skillet combos really well at higher percents and the angle it sends people off the stage is just disgusting. Catch a double jump canceler out of their jump and all you have to do is get the edge guard. You can carry people across the floor of the stage if you land several of them in a row.

 

[Juushichi]

i'd be more willing to bet Dakpo since he's done it before, but sure Meta.

lead the metagame so to speak. I do a fair amount of pan-based shield pressure and streamed for a bit yesterday, I could grab some of the archives.

 

[Dakpo]

I expect 1st or bust, meta! You can do it!

 

[Metmetm3t]

Time to bring back some G&W&L

 

[Nemiak temp]

Bacon as approach is stupid meta. Have fun not getting out of pools lololololzors. GnW shouldn't really be approaching anyone too much unless its with a back air or forward air after like 50 percent. The new dash dance is godlike, just camp the **** out of people until you have an opening and punish it with GnW amazing punish game. Bacon is overratted and I really hope GnW mains stop leaning on it as a crutch. Sure it has low landing lag and a decent hitbox on the pan but it's a very unsafe approach and is only truly useful as an anti air against chars with low priority/disjoint aerials. Dash attack is safe as hell. They shielded? LOLOLOLOL grab cancel that ****. They got hit? COMBO TIME. Dair into jab is like the most absurd shield pressure in the game (shy of shine shenanigans) and can usually guarantee a grab. Or if they roll out you can punish with a DACUS. (Not guaranteed but if you get the read it's SOO satisfying).

 

[Dakpo]

ummmm not a crutch. Its a tool.

 

[Nemiak temp]

You're definately right it IS a tool. And a pretty good one at that. I'm saying that WAY too many GnW players use it as the *don't know what to do in this situation so I'll just default to bacon spam* tool. This doesn't get wins unfortunately and I've seen a few GnW players do this and wonder WHY they lose. Good Falcos use lasers intelligently, good GnW players should do the same with bacon.