Un-Dedicated: Your personal guide to finding a secondary for Sheik

[Zankoku]

So for whatever reason, you're looking for a secondary, but you're not sure who. If you are sure who, don't bother reading this guide. Otherwise, read on.

There are several reasons why you might want to find a secondary. I will list them here and give a description, along with suggestions on who to try. Keep in mind that this is a guideline, and you don't have to follow any of my advice; this is just to help you along if you're completely indecisive.

So now, the reasons.

I'm not winning enough.
Yeah, Sheik isn't high tier (maybe). Deal with it. Or don't. If this is seriously why you're looking for a secondary, consider finding a new main instead. You will find the most success with top tiers.
Suggestions: Meta Knight, Snake, Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede

I'm bored of only using Sheik.
Well, if this is the case, then only you can really decide on which character you actually want to mess around with. There's no particular motivation behind your choice, so your decision isn't exactly narrowed down any.
Suggestions: uhh... try Zelda? Or just go through the rest of the roster

I fear a character matchup.
Meta Knight
This is one of those matchups where you have to ask yourself if you really want to main Sheik or not. If you actually cannot handle playing Sheik against Meta Knight and are looking for a secondary, then this is problematic because Meta Knight will likely show up in at least 40% of your tournament matchups. Yeah, you'd be picking up a secondary that you use practically half the time.
Suggestions: Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Diddy Kong, Marth, Pikachu, Ice Climbers

Ice Climbers
Sheik's most obviously bad matchup. Yes, she's got projectiles and can avoid getting grabbed... just like a whole lot of other characters. That doesn't exactly shift the matchup in her advantage when her actual options for disrupting the ICs are relatively minimal and she gets chaingrabbed by Popo alone. If you're actually planning on going all Sheik and braving this matchup, I salute your bravery, but wonder why you're reading this guide.
Suggestions: Zelda, Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Peach, Mr. Game & Watch

Pikachu
Pikachu can chaingrab you if he lands a grab from like 0-15% or so. Deal with it.
Suggestions: Learning not to get grabbed at low %'s

Falco, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch
Uh... really? Do you seriously have that much of a problem with slightly disadvantageous matchups? Well, if you really feel the need to counterpick your way to a victory, and don't want to learn more than one other character...
Suggestions: Meta Knight, Snake, Falco, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth

I fear a stage.
Brinstar
This is one of those love-it-or-hate-it stages, based mostly on how comfortable you feel about moving around on a stage with acid, oddly placed side platforms, and uneven ground. If you've just had a bad experience on it, try first playing on it a bit more with Sheik before immediately looking for a secondary.
Suggestions: Meta Knight, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Donkey Kong

Frigate Orpheon
Okay, yeah, the right side is pretty scary for you. Another one of those stages I suggest actually practicing a bit on before you decide whether you actually hate it or not. Aside from the ledgeless right side during the initial form, this stage isn't actually terrible for Sheik.
Suggestions: Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Pikachu, R.O.B.

Jungle Japes
You really ought to ban this stage against Falco, you know. But if you didn't, and you get counterpicked to it, and your opponent is using Falco, then I guess you'll have to learn a secondary.
Suggestions: Snake, Falco, Diddy Kong, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch

Rainbow Cruise
Another one of those stages that you'll either be fine with or absolutely hate. In this case if you're having troubles with the stage you'll want to find a secondary that can better maneuver it.
Suggestions: Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, R.O.B., Kirby

Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Halberd
Dude. Dude. .... Really?
Suggestions: Finding a new main




If you have any other ideas or reasons to look for a secondary feel free to mention.

 

[Tristan_win]

I highly approve of the title of this thread and the info within it.

 

[-Mars-]

Hahahahahaha good f****** s***. 5 stars. Would read again.

Seriously though a couple things:

1. If you're one of those people that find the S and A tier characters don't fit your playstyle(like myself), then pick up ZSS. She is PERFECT to be used alongside Sheik. Covers G&W, Kirby, and Ice Climbers. She also goes even with or beats Olimar, Snake, Marth, Pikachu, Wario, ROB, and DDD......so if for some reason you can't beat those characters she would be perfect for you.

2. If you use a character other than your main for the MK matchup........then that's not your main. If your finding it impossible to compete against MK with Sheik and you need to get a secondary, then you may as well switch mains as you are more than likely more skilled with that character.

 

[choknater]

wow, thanks for the tip marsulas. yeah, i get bored using snake

imma pick up ZSS now (got ***** by Salem's zss last night)

 

[stealth3654]

IDK but people might consider picking up a secondary for Snake because they get tired of Snake living to 150% and up while Snake kills Sheik a little earlier than 100%

 

[Icyo]

5/5
I lol'd and would definitely read this again.

 

[Tristan_win]

IDK but people might consider picking up a secondary for Snake because they get tired of Snake living to 150% and up while Snake kills Sheik a little earlier than 100%

"Don't get hit"

 

[Leafplayer452]

Good point Ankoku, though Ill just stick with C tier whoring (Sheik/Fox )

 

[gm jack]

I actually am finding G&W quite good. IC are my hardest match up for any character (anything else I feel I can beat with Sheik). G&W is IC second worse match up after Snake, and has a much lower learning curve. Also, pretty fun to play as, but fairly different. If he doesn't work out, I shall just CP IC with more IC.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't see the point of counterpicking somebody's main in a ditto. Like say they use MK and you lose so you pick MK...........that's just dumb you're going to lose.

 

[saviorslegacy]

"Don't get hit"

Perfect!
Now if we can just apply this to every match.

I actually am finding G&W quite good. IC are my hardest match up for any character (anything else I feel I can beat with Sheik). G&W is IC second worse match up after Snake, and has a much lower learning curve. Also, pretty fun to play as, but fairly different. If he doesn't work out, I shall just CP IC with more IC.

I am also picking up G&W for that same problem.
He is really easy to play as and is a nice break from Sheik.

I don't see the point of counterpicking somebody's main in a ditto. Like say they use MK and you lose so you pick MK...........that's just dumb you're going to lose.

I agree.
I mean, they'll have more MK experience than you.




BTW guys... I know how to beat the Pika CG now.
We chain camp him.
He has only one choice, to use projectiles and knock us out of our chain. Thus, we take damage and are past the CG percents.

 

[-Mars-]

BTW guys... I know how to beat the Pika CG now.
We chain camp him.
He has only one choice, to use projectiles and knock us out of our chain. Thus, we take damage and are past the CG percents.

That's actually a really good idea. Since I don't know how many high level Pikachu's their are outside of Anther, Z and a few others........find out whether or not they actually know about the whole thing before you automatically eat 25% every stock.

Besides that though, I really don't have a problem taking around 25%..........i'm curious once we get past that percent he cant chaingrab us anymore?

 

[saviorslegacy]

That's actually a really good idea. Since I don't know how many high level Pikachu's their are outside of Anther, Z and a few others........find out whether or not they actually know about the whole thing before you automatically eat 25% every stock.

Besides that though, I really don't have a problem taking around 25%..........i'm curious once we get past that percent he cant chaingrab us anymore?

I would rather eat 25% instead of like 100%. O-o

Well here's the thing, Pika's CG's run off of decay. That is why they can CG you a lot if they get you early.
So they can still CG you, but you will have to much damage for the decay to counter.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I have problems with lylat cruise.

No seriously.

I hate that stage.

 

[stealth3654]

That's actually a really good idea. Since I don't know how many high level Pikachu's their are outside of Anther, Z and a few others........find out whether or not they actually know about the whole thing before you automatically eat 25% every stock.

Besides that though, I really don't have a problem taking around 25%..........i'm curious once we get past that percent he cant chaingrab us anymore?

Pika can still cg you with fthrow, but only to 58% + regrab. So you can still take a lot of damage, but the stage might end the fthrow cg early AND the dthrow cg won't work.

Just be careful of Pika jumping way over you and thundering, but you should be able to see that coming a mile away... Actually, the thunder might make getting your % over 25 faster...

 

[Judo777]

I actually already considered the idea of camping pika with the chain. I dont think it works cause i looked around and i dont think pika's CG has to start at a low percent. And if it does i also thought about this.

Suppose the pikachu is smart and u whip out the chain. the first thing he does is hit u with a pika jolt doing 7% or so. you re-use the chain and the pikachu stand right outside your chain range. Now he just plays the waiting game as he has a percent lead. Once u put away the chain he grabs u and its back to square 1. This will only work (assuming the CG is percent dependant) if you can get pikachu up to a percent where in order for him to have the lead he has to do that much dmg.

 

[stealth3654]

Well, according to Stealthsushi's guide (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178812), the chain can block the thunder jolt. So, Sheik can just hit Pika with one needle and chain camp.

Also, are you sure that Pika has enough time to cover the chain's distance and grab Sheik before Sheik can move again?

 

[Judo777]

im not sure if it can block a jolt or not but unless u can completely chain camp pika(which i dont think you can) the strategy is flawed because the idea is to take dmg to get out of CG percents but to keep a percent lead which isnt very likely.

 

[Judo777]

oh an there is plenty of time to grab sheik out of chain.

 

[stealth3654]

Hmmm... How about you chain camp next to the ledge? If you don't block the thunder jolt and take the 7% or so, then you will still be fine if you put away the chain because Pika has to start the dthrow cg at around 20-25%. Pika usually gets you to that % by fthrows and pummeling, but the fthrow will knock you off stage and you should be able to struggle out of the pummel.

So, say you take the 7% from thunder jolt then a fthrow. You will be at about 17%, which is too low to start the dthrow cg and too high to fthrow to dthrow cg. Also, the weak hit of thunder does about the dame damage as fthrow.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Pika can still cg you with fthrow, but only to 58% + regrab. So you can still take a lot of damage, but the stage might end the fthrow cg early AND the dthrow cg won't work.

Just be careful of Pika jumping way over you and thundering, but you should be able to see that coming a mile away... Actually, the thunder might make getting your % over 25 faster...

Why would you want to get past 25%?
As long as you are out of the 0-100 percents I see no reason to be emo anymore.....

Well, according to Stealthsushi's guide (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178812), the chain can block the thunder jolt. So, Sheik can just hit Pika with one needle and chain camp.

Also, are you sure that Pika has enough time to cover the chain's distance and grab Sheik before Sheik can move again?

Ahhhhh

I have been wondering if that is unfinished though....
I believe he is only hitting with the body of the chain (thus weaker).
I wonder if the tip is strong enough to destroy even more than what is posted in there.

im not sure if it can block a jolt or not but unless u can completely chain camp pika(which i dont think you can) the strategy is flawed because the idea is to take dmg to get out of CG percents but to keep a percent lead which isnt very likely.

haha
If we can destroy his thunder jolts then we can legitimately chain camp him.
Simply pull out the chain while under a platform and you will be protected.
Pika has extremely short range so I wonder if you can even protect you back as well.
If he does get hit while at your back then he is gonna eat like 30+ish percent in a reverse chain lock.

oh an there is plenty of time to grab sheik out of chain.

Depends on if you were hit and how far you are sent flying.
Also depends if rat boy can get in there before the hit box comes out.
If he almost reaches you and the hit box comes out he will eat like 20+ish damage.

Hmmm... How about you chain camp next to the ledge? If you don't block the thunder jolt and take the 7% or so, then you will still be fine if you put away the chain because Pika has to start the dthrow cg at around 20-25%. Pika usually gets you to that % by fthrows and pummeling, but the fthrow will knock you off stage and you should be able to struggle out of the pummel.

So, say you take the 7% from thunder jolt then a fthrow. You will be at about 17%, which is too low to start the dthrow cg and too high to fthrow to dthrow cg. Also, the weak hit of thunder does about the dame damage as fthrow.

I like my under the platform idea more... but then again this idea is legit for like every stage.


I have been thinking about how to use the chain to maximize its defensive capabilities.
This is what I have come up with.



Chain stalling
This is a very simple idea. Just simple throw out your chain and eat something like Fox's lasers, G&W's bacon or Falco's lasers.
Fox can only damage you.
Falco and G&W can both hurt you and knock you out of your chain.
For G&W just rethrow your chain while he is in after lag.
For Falco just perform DSmash to stop any follow ups and the rethrow the chain.

The idea is not to avoid damage, but to ensure that you don't get KO'd while you stall the match.


Chain camping at the ledge
Basically you want to stay here so that when you get hit you are put on the ledge so they cannot follow up the projectile (ie Pits looped arrows to Angle Ring).
Then try and fight your way back on.
This is more risky but then again the only thing you have to worry about from Pit while on the ledge is a Bair stage spike and a d-tilt spike.
So if you play right you could stall the match some at your higher percents.

You'll also Pisst him off and he'll make more mistakes.


Chain camping under a platform
This takes care of attacks from above (like Thunder, springs and Snakes missile). (Snake still has C-4 though.)
Just simply throw out a chain under the platform for extra protection.


Playing the chain even smarter
I mentioned that you can eat damage to get you out of Pika's CG percent range, but there is more than that.
Lets say you are fighting Snake and want to stall/piss him off.
Go under the platform and perform chain.
Now his grenades don't go through the chain, he can't drop missiles on you either. If he attempts to missile you just hit it to change its course.
He is left with one option though, C-4.
To perform the C-4 he has to get on the center platform, jump, peform the move, jump back and explode it.
When you see the first jump, retract the chain, run to the other side and redeploy the chain.

No one will get any where. I see him try to play mind games and fake you out though, so we could intern make him think that we are doing this to get him to try and mind game us into running but we in turm get him with a tipper USmash/an airial.


Chain camping at the ledge on a recovering opponent (aka chain guard)
You need to be out far enough that you can actually hit someone though...
You can get damage and stall someone like Ganon or Marth by using your extreme priority and very active hit box to make them take damage before they grab the ledge.
People like Ike can get through this and people that can go over your head also punish you for being gay....



Well... that's all that I have thought of.

 

[stealth3654]

Why would you want to get past 25%?
As long as you are out of the 0-100 percents I see no reason to be emo anymore.....


I have been wondering if that is unfinished though....
I believe he is only hitting with the body of the chain (thus weaker).
I wonder if the tip is strong enough to destroy even more than what is posted in there.

You would want to get past 25% because then he can't dthrow cg you anymore. Earlier than 20%, Pika can fthrow and pummel you till you get in the dthrow % range. After 25%, though, Pika is limited to his fthrow cg.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Stealthsushi's guide is unfinished. Plus, he hasn't been on in forever.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You would want to get past 25% because then he can't dthrow cg you anymore. Earlier than 20%, Pika can fthrow and pummel you till you get in the dthrow % range. After 25%, though, Pika is limited to his fthrow cg.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Stealthsushi's guide is unfinished. Plus, he hasn't been on in forever.

I wonder why he doesn't come on. It couldn't be everyone attitude could it?

 

[Judo777]

Are u sure about the percentage for the CG i have been trying to figure that out but i want to be sure.

SL i like where your head is at and how you're trying to find great uses for the chain but i believe that many of your ideas wont work very well. Don't get me wrong im not trying to bash u or anything. With the excpetion of chaining on the ledge (which i use all the time) i dont think using the chain to stall will work very well. Im not sure if things like grenades get thro the chain or not but the logic it self makes it void IMO. When you are chain stalling you are not doing anything at all to your opponent meanwhile u are giving them a controlled environment to try and hurt u. Unless you can guarentee that you will be perfect with the chain and not mess up for them to get 1 attack taking dmg will kill u in the long run.

I'll give a couple of charcter examples.

Fox can shoot laseres at you to 999% (not necessary obviously) while u stall. Unless u have a stock lead u are not gonna win the stall game. Also at that point u have to use the chain perfect if u get hit ur gonna die.

Snake i believe can nikita the missle and even if you hit over and over if he cancels it with L it will drop and hit u.

Falco same as fox only now he can exploit possible screwups of redeploying the chain. Not to mention camping with grounded chain is really hard and u dont have time to SH.

Game and watch has bacon and i believe he can wait for a lob bacon and attack with it maybe not but if so he has the key.

All in all its a high risk low reward situation.

 

[-Mars-]

Saviors I just want to let you know I actually think a couple of your ideas are worth checking into. get at me on AIM sometime. I like the way you are open to exploring new possibilities with Sheik.

Oh and Stealth Sushi left before you even joined SWF lol.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I have been THINKING about how to use the chain to maximize its defensive capabilities.

this

Are u sure about the percentage for the CG i have been trying to figure that out but i want to be sure.

SL i like where your head is at and how you're trying to find great uses for the chain but i believe that many of your ideas wont work very well. Don't get me wrong im not trying to bash u or anything. With the excpetion of chaining on the ledge (which i use all the time) i dont think using the chain to stall will work very well. Im not sure if things like grenades get thro the chain or not but the logic it self makes it void IMO. When you are chain stalling you are not doing anything at all to your opponent meanwhile u are giving them a controlled environment to try and hurt u. Unless you can guarentee that you will be perfect with the chain and not mess up for them to get 1 attack taking dmg will kill u in the long run.

I'll give a couple of charcter examples.

Fox can shoot laseres at you to 999% (not necessary obviously) while u stall. Unless u have a stock lead u are not gonna win the stall game. Also at that point u have to use the chain perfect if u get hit ur gonna die.

Snake i believe can nikita the missle and even if you hit over and over if he cancels it with L it will drop and hit u.

Falco same as fox only now he can exploit possible screwups of redeploying the chain. Not to mention camping with grounded chain is really hard and u dont have time to SH.

Game and watch has bacon and i believe he can wait for a lob bacon and attack with it maybe not but if so he has the key.

All in all its a high risk low reward situation.

I have thought of your counter idea's.
I said here are a few ways I have THOUGHT about using chain.

I'm not gonna say that they wouldn't work, but I am going to say that someone needs to use them in a match for it to get recognition and for it to be accpeted as working.
Plain data cannot legitimize a camping dispute. lol

:EDIT:
I forgot to mention that you are camping Snake by going under a platform.
Same with G&W.

Oops, I forgot about the grounded lasers. lol
You never see a Falco do it so it has been like hard wired into my brain that Falco shoots lasers while jumping.

 

[stealth3654]

Are u sure about the percentage for the CG i have been trying to figure that out but i want to be sure.

No. PM Kaylo or KPrime about it. They should be able to give you an answer.

 

[Zankoku]

Whoever it was that said playing a ditto matchup was bad:
Just because they have more experience with their own character doesn't mean they'll be stronger at the ditto matchup, nor are you necessarily playing against their main. Chu Dat has been counterpicking Ice Climbers against other ICs players for quite a while. And of course there's the inevitable Meta Knight ditto on Frigate/Brinstar/Norfair. Keep in mind you're learning a secondary - you don't need to learn every single matchup ever with, say, G&W, just the matchups that you're going to be using him instead of Sheik for.

 

[Judo777]

I think the chain is way underrated and i do camp with it every now and then but i wouldnt use the term stalling lol. But yea SL u have some neat ideas but they have to be used in moderation.

On a side note snake has a bunch of options to hit sheik out of chain. Grenades thrown really fast are pretty freaking hard to stop but even if you are perfect Snake can still throw a grenade over u then strip it so it lands right on you and grenades hit thro platforms. Also Nikita can hit you out of a chain if they fly it into the ground under u.

 

[Judo777]

oh and KPrime just confirmed that pika has to start the CG between 20-50ish percent.

 

[stealth3654]

oh and KPrime just confirmed that pika has to start the CG between 20-50ish percent.

Whaaa????? Dang, I think it would just be smarter to go Zelda than trying to avoid being grabbed until over 50%.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Whaaa????? Dang, I think it would just be smarter to go Zelda than trying to avoid being grabbed until over 50%.

Hey that's not a bad idea. Switching to the one who can't be CG'd to protect the one that can.

For me, I think I'll save Pika and IC's for G&W.

 

[kingcobra9]

it seems like every character i switch to end up having a bad matchup with g&w

 

[saviorslegacy]

it seems like every character i switch to end up having a bad matchup with g&w

Hold you horse's on saying we have a bad match up to him.

Bair and Nair wars for priority.
He can't capture our Needle's.
Chain his recovery and if he is low he is SCREWED!
Grab release Fair (I also bet you we have a guaranteed Nair)
Vanish games because he is constantly hoping around.


There are also standered options that Sheik has in almost every match up to take advantage of.

 

[choknater]

yea i dont think sheik vs gw is that bad honestly, still in his advantage but 55:45 to me

 

[goodkid]

Just use switch to Zelda vs ICs. She is so good @ separating them. Just dash away and f-smash the entire match and you win.

 

[choknater]

lmao yea pretty much that's what i do LOL

 

[Zankoku]

Just use switch to Zelda vs ICs. She is so good @ separating them. Just dash away and f-smash the entire match and you win.

This stopped working on lain Day 1.

 

[saviorslegacy]

This stopped working on lain Day 1.

I lol'd

IMO... every bad match up that Sheik has (there are two, Pika and IC's) can be solved by Zelda, G&W, MK or Snake.

 

[gm jack]

I use G&W. The turtle is too good at separating the IC, and it is less punishable than Zelda's Fsmash. Seriously, no half decent IC will fool for a Fsmash for than once or twice. G&W runs all over them as his air game has the same properties that makes Zedla's ground game good.