MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
What they NEED to do, is make Dive Kick not so safe.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds
- Thread starter Serris
- Start date
Serris
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Wolverine's dive kick isn't the only stupid thing about him. I've seen a Berserker Slash go right through Dormammu's Chaotic Flame.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Ok, the real problem with Chaotic Flame is flash buffering, LOTS of stuff goes through it, I know that Bionic Arm can, and I know that Akuma's Shoryu hyper will go clean through it.
Serris
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But Berserker Slash isn't a hyper combo, it's just a standard attack. If you time it right, it can go through any beam hyper.
Re: Serris' Wolverine list.
Number two is the first thing they need to do.
Number two is the first thing they need to do.
Serris
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I re-worked the order. I'm surprised you didn't critique it further.
Nope, dive kick is a big deal.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
First, dive kick isn't as safe as it appears. I'm not precisely sure how the mechanics of going from air-->ground work, but here's an example that I played around with a *lot*:
I'd dive kick as wolvy, as opponent jumps slightly above the ground as ammy to block. As soon as he touches the ground he'd mash L while I'd do the same with cr L upon landing; 100% consistently his would come out first. I'm also fairly certain that in the guide book it even states that depending on how high up wolvy hits you with the dive kick, you can actually *grab* him out of it before he can do anything. Even if you can't do it, frame wise, its essentially an option select; if its a blockstring your character won't do anything, if its not a blockstring you'll grab him. Normally things like this are risky because of frame traps obviously, but the fact that grabs come out in 1 frame essentially negates any of that nonsense.
To be honest, I do think the health thing is a bit silly just for the type of character he is; the small+fast mold generally should have lower health, so whatever I'll buy that.
Beserker slash? Great move, yes. Now, how many people actually realize two things about this:
1) If wolverine is *ever* not covered by an assist, he is pretty much forced to either sit there with CrL or cancel his blockstring into beserker charge by the end of it. Neither his heavy nor his beserker slash are safe. Being *forced* to spend meter to make things safe, or severely scaling his combos (2 or 3 extra crouching lights before confirming the hit) are literally his only options if you don't push block.
2)Once again, if he's *ever* not covered by an assist, you can simply hit him out of beserker slash. Yes, it has invincibility, but he's vulnerable for a good amount of time before he actually hits you. Anyone with a rapid fire move or a hitbox that stays out for long enough can just throw them out there without any timing and hit him out of it *consistently*. If you don't have either of those, all you need is a bit of timing. Oh, you can also grab him out of it unless they position themselves so that the invincibility is active both directly in front of and directly behind you.
Tl;dr on beserker slash and blockstrings in general? If you play brain dead wolverine, soon enough people will actually decide to stop *****ing and actually learn the *huge* holes in his stuff, and **** you for it. Wolverine actually has to be very careful/precise, but people are so scared that they just sit there push blocking everything and not touching any buttons during beserker slash.
There are a lot more counter wolverine tactics that *nobody* abuses yet. The closest anyone I've seen in videos actually showing some sort of attempt to counter wolverine strategy is done the most by chrisg: he actually jumps either back or in place to dodge the beserker slash, and then while wolverine is in lag behind him, he uses a move that'll hit behind him to punish (wesker's air S, for example).
Seriously, if someone is playing a brain dead wolverine, even if you don't know how to counter any of his tactics, just sitting there blocking either forces an unsafe blockstring or burning meter. Unless wolverine has some meter saved up, he's going to be out of meter pretty quickly if he's on point. Yes, I realize some of his stuff is pretty much literally 50/50, but do you realize how precise you really have to be to set up a *true* 50/50? It can't happen anywhere, at any time; you have to force your opponent into a bad situation initially, and time the assist call extremely ambiguously. Easily 90%+ people do "50/50s" you probably could have reacted and figured out which way to block, just watch any video and pay careful attention to when wolverine goes behind (or doesn't). Seriously, only the really good players actually pull truly ambiguous stuff off consistently. That aside, there are lots of *awful* situations to be in, in any competitive game; the best way to deal with them isn't to learn to counter them, but to learn to never be put in said situations in the first place. Good players will learn to deal with the situations, the best players will never even be in them; if your opponent never gets you in a position to set up a "braindead" 50/50, then you'll never be threatened by it.
I think wolverine's a great character, but I think its wayyyyyyy too early to start complaining about him at all. Maybe once people actually start developing any semblance of matchup knowledge and wolverine is still being ridiculous, we can complain.
I'd dive kick as wolvy, as opponent jumps slightly above the ground as ammy to block. As soon as he touches the ground he'd mash L while I'd do the same with cr L upon landing; 100% consistently his would come out first. I'm also fairly certain that in the guide book it even states that depending on how high up wolvy hits you with the dive kick, you can actually *grab* him out of it before he can do anything. Even if you can't do it, frame wise, its essentially an option select; if its a blockstring your character won't do anything, if its not a blockstring you'll grab him. Normally things like this are risky because of frame traps obviously, but the fact that grabs come out in 1 frame essentially negates any of that nonsense.
To be honest, I do think the health thing is a bit silly just for the type of character he is; the small+fast mold generally should have lower health, so whatever I'll buy that.
Beserker slash? Great move, yes. Now, how many people actually realize two things about this:
1) If wolverine is *ever* not covered by an assist, he is pretty much forced to either sit there with CrL or cancel his blockstring into beserker charge by the end of it. Neither his heavy nor his beserker slash are safe. Being *forced* to spend meter to make things safe, or severely scaling his combos (2 or 3 extra crouching lights before confirming the hit) are literally his only options if you don't push block.
2)Once again, if he's *ever* not covered by an assist, you can simply hit him out of beserker slash. Yes, it has invincibility, but he's vulnerable for a good amount of time before he actually hits you. Anyone with a rapid fire move or a hitbox that stays out for long enough can just throw them out there without any timing and hit him out of it *consistently*. If you don't have either of those, all you need is a bit of timing. Oh, you can also grab him out of it unless they position themselves so that the invincibility is active both directly in front of and directly behind you.
Tl;dr on beserker slash and blockstrings in general? If you play brain dead wolverine, soon enough people will actually decide to stop *****ing and actually learn the *huge* holes in his stuff, and **** you for it. Wolverine actually has to be very careful/precise, but people are so scared that they just sit there push blocking everything and not touching any buttons during beserker slash.
There are a lot more counter wolverine tactics that *nobody* abuses yet. The closest anyone I've seen in videos actually showing some sort of attempt to counter wolverine strategy is done the most by chrisg: he actually jumps either back or in place to dodge the beserker slash, and then while wolverine is in lag behind him, he uses a move that'll hit behind him to punish (wesker's air S, for example).
Seriously, if someone is playing a brain dead wolverine, even if you don't know how to counter any of his tactics, just sitting there blocking either forces an unsafe blockstring or burning meter. Unless wolverine has some meter saved up, he's going to be out of meter pretty quickly if he's on point. Yes, I realize some of his stuff is pretty much literally 50/50, but do you realize how precise you really have to be to set up a *true* 50/50? It can't happen anywhere, at any time; you have to force your opponent into a bad situation initially, and time the assist call extremely ambiguously. Easily 90%+ people do "50/50s" you probably could have reacted and figured out which way to block, just watch any video and pay careful attention to when wolverine goes behind (or doesn't). Seriously, only the really good players actually pull truly ambiguous stuff off consistently. That aside, there are lots of *awful* situations to be in, in any competitive game; the best way to deal with them isn't to learn to counter them, but to learn to never be put in said situations in the first place. Good players will learn to deal with the situations, the best players will never even be in them; if your opponent never gets you in a position to set up a "braindead" 50/50, then you'll never be threatened by it.
I think wolverine's a great character, but I think its wayyyyyyy too early to start complaining about him at all. Maybe once people actually start developing any semblance of matchup knowledge and wolverine is still being ridiculous, we can complain.
I'll just leave this here for you.
GreenAce
Smash Ace
I like how his dive kick is an option-select too. So you can never go air to air with him.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
You can never go air to air? Yeah, if you're mashing heavy and get hit afterwards by the dive kick; anyone with decent awareness won't be getting hit afterwards.
Break away--> block-->land on ground puts you in the situation I discussed in my previous post where blockstun goes weird from air to ground. I pointed out the example of blocking the dive kick barely above the ground, landing, and mashing out a cr L or something; if you abuse it right, break aways near the ground and getting dive kicked at actually puts you *at the advantage* if you know how to abuse it.
Also, wolverine xfactors all the damned time on the first character. If you really want him dead, just ****ing xfc guard cancel a dive kick and kill him. Dive kick is probably the easiest move in the world to guard cancel
Whatever though guys, keep complaining about wolverine, rather than learning how to play the game; people complain about mvc3 being low skill/easy, but then don't even put the time in to actually explore it deeply. Real competitive players see something apparently good, and do everything in their power to try to find ways around it; the last thing they say is that something is stupid/broken, and only do so after extensive effort to counter said tactic/character/whatever.
Break away--> block-->land on ground puts you in the situation I discussed in my previous post where blockstun goes weird from air to ground. I pointed out the example of blocking the dive kick barely above the ground, landing, and mashing out a cr L or something; if you abuse it right, break aways near the ground and getting dive kicked at actually puts you *at the advantage* if you know how to abuse it.
Also, wolverine xfactors all the damned time on the first character. If you really want him dead, just ****ing xfc guard cancel a dive kick and kill him. Dive kick is probably the easiest move in the world to guard cancel
Whatever though guys, keep complaining about wolverine, rather than learning how to play the game; people complain about mvc3 being low skill/easy, but then don't even put the time in to actually explore it deeply. Real competitive players see something apparently good, and do everything in their power to try to find ways around it; the last thing they say is that something is stupid/broken, and only do so after extensive effort to counter said tactic/character/whatever.
GreenAce
Smash Ace
I'm just adding random hate.
Honestly people should sit down and learn the match up. I'm not going to deny that he is the easiest character i've ever seen to use effectivly. But he's far from unbeatable.
I want everyone to tell me dante's bad match ups. And then tell me wolverines still broken.
Also what's stopping wolverine from dive kicking AGAIN then whiff punishing are short, or strong
PS. I ****ing still hate wolverine though.
Honestly people should sit down and learn the match up. I'm not going to deny that he is the easiest character i've ever seen to use effectivly. But he's far from unbeatable.
I want everyone to tell me dante's bad match ups. And then tell me wolverines still broken.
Also what's stopping wolverine from dive kicking AGAIN then whiff punishing are short, or strong
PS. I ****ing still hate wolverine though.
Zero_Gamer
Smash Master
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Is there any matchup that dante legitimately straight up loses?
Edit: Lmao; I was referring to good being like a character/tactic, but that works too =P
Edit: Lmao; I was referring to good being like a character/tactic, but that works too =P
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
PLATINUM!
If I do decide to sell the game I'm keeping the awesome booklet.
If I do decide to sell the game I'm keeping the awesome booklet.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
7weskers.
"I think the odds are fair. 7-on-2."
"I think the odds are fair. 7-on-2."
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
Get off your high horse top players complain about stupid chars all the time. Stop basing all your perception solely off of what you see on cross counter or on streams. Just because people complain doesn't mean they don't find solutions.
Serris
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And would you kindly explain to me just how you are qualified to make the assessment that we don't know how to play the game, or will you continue making baseless assumptions that make you come across like an arrogant punk with an extremely over-inflated sense of self-importance? People have every right to voice their opinions about elements within a game. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't give you the right to insult someone's ability to play the game. It's wholly unnecessary and rude.
Moving on...
We need to get a PSN lobby together. I'm available up until 11:30 PM EST every day of the week. Anyone else?
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
I'm willing to have one last HUZZAH! (
) b4 I let the game gather dust.
) b4 I let the game gather dust.
Minato
穏やかじゃない
My PS3 is breaking down and having BD issues. It's been crashing on certain games and MvC3 is one of them.
Oh well, we know how our matches go. I spam Dante's hammer and then I try to random out your Dark Phoenix. XD
And then Super MvC3 will probably get announced at Comic Con...I'm willing to have one last HUZZAH! (
Serris
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Sorry to hear that.My PS3 is breaking down and having BD issues. It's been crashing on certain games and MvC3 is one of them.
Just count yourself lucky that you don't play Thor. Touch of death all day e'rry day.
As much as I wish it wouldn't, this is probably true.
When can you play?I'm willing to have one last HUZZAH! (
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Okay, let me make sure I understand your post correctly, I wouldn't want to misinterpret:
In your post you do two main things. At one point, you claim people have the right to voice their opinions (about elements within a game). At another point you insult me with some hyphenated words.
Now you also do another two things in your post. At one point you question my qualifications in voicing my opinion. At another point you claim it is rude to insult someone (or to be specific, their ability to play the game).
Excuse me, but thats the most hypocritical thing I've seen done in a while. Or let me guess: its okay to insult me, since I damaged your and others pride by attempting describe a more competitive mentality and approach to a competitive fighter. By insulting you, I have withdrawn any rights to express opinions, and you now are "qualified to make the assessment" that I am an "arrogant punk with an extremely over-inflated sense of self-importance". Oh wait let me guess again; you didn't actually say I was any of that, just that I come across that way?
Edit: The bulk of my post was not insulting anybody, and was mere *general* frustration at the overall ridiculous amount of complaining about a character; I offered many examples of ways to deal with said character, and that was the majority of my post. I'm glad you can only narrowly pick the one part that hurt your pride and then attack me for it with far more insulting statements than I used. Kudos
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
Serris
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I said you were acting that way, I didn't say you were inherently like that.
What I quoted wasn't an opinion, it was a direct statement meant to degrade people who didn't agree with you. There's a fine line between critiquing and insulting, and you crossed it.
"Whatever though guys, keep complaining about wolverine, rather than learning how to play the game" isn't an opinion, that's a direct statement that mocks whoever doesn't share your views.
I picked out that statement because it was insulting to several people, and it was the only part of the entire post I had an issue with. If you'd left that out, this whole thing could have been avoided.
Now, shall we get back on topic?
Lombardi and I are the only two that seem to be interested in eventually hosting a lobby right now. Anyone else want to chime in with times they're able to play?
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
If you'd responded to the actual content of my post, this whole thing could have been avoided as well.
The statement wasn't meant to degrade people, you're just overly sensitive. You also keep making side comments about getting back on topic as a way to make yourself seem better than the person you're talking to; "oh this is all his fault, but look at my golden character avoiding all problems".
If you actually cared about being on topic, you wouldn't have pointed out anything from my post, as approximately 90% of my post was directly related to the topic and you addressed none of it. And yes, it is my opinion that people need to learn to have a competitive approach to the game, rather than complain about characters to a ridiculous degree; I don't see why that's so difficult to accept.
Honestly, I'm just tired of seeing 5 pages in a row of people doing two things:
1) Insulting mvc3 and calling it a ****ty game
2) Complaining about wolverine... and sometimes even
3) They use complaining about wolverine to call it a ****ty game.
Its everywhere; everyone's doing it. It takes these types of threads off topic more than anything else does, but I didn't see you address that at all. If you cared so much about this thread having anything productive, you'd address the countless pages insulting the game and complaining about a character. Complaining isn't even inherently that bad, but when I have a counterargument to address wolverine, someone could at least respond rather than just pick apart the section that damaged your pride.
Whatever, I'm done; have fun with this, good luck dealing with wolverine and phoenix.
Hey greenace, how far did you get at CEO?
The statement wasn't meant to degrade people, you're just overly sensitive. You also keep making side comments about getting back on topic as a way to make yourself seem better than the person you're talking to; "oh this is all his fault, but look at my golden character avoiding all problems".
If you actually cared about being on topic, you wouldn't have pointed out anything from my post, as approximately 90% of my post was directly related to the topic and you addressed none of it. And yes, it is my opinion that people need to learn to have a competitive approach to the game, rather than complain about characters to a ridiculous degree; I don't see why that's so difficult to accept.
Honestly, I'm just tired of seeing 5 pages in a row of people doing two things:
1) Insulting mvc3 and calling it a ****ty game
2) Complaining about wolverine... and sometimes even
3) They use complaining about wolverine to call it a ****ty game.
Its everywhere; everyone's doing it. It takes these types of threads off topic more than anything else does, but I didn't see you address that at all. If you cared so much about this thread having anything productive, you'd address the countless pages insulting the game and complaining about a character. Complaining isn't even inherently that bad, but when I have a counterargument to address wolverine, someone could at least respond rather than just pick apart the section that damaged your pride.
Whatever, I'm done; have fun with this, good luck dealing with wolverine and phoenix.
Hey greenace, how far did you get at CEO?
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
Both of you need to stop getting off-topic.
Let's get this thread back on track.
Wolverine is broken. Discuss.
Let's get this thread back on track.
Wolverine is broken. Discuss.
Hey. Hey, Brightside.
Marry me.
Okay? Okay.
Marry me.
Okay? Okay.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
I'll marry you. Are you good at kitchen? Can you make Tangerines?
Pitzer
The Young Lion
Lythium oh you xD
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Patriotic Zero, GET ON AIM.
Gotta add you with the new name.
Gotta add you with the new name.
Pitzer
The Young Lion
I am on aim lol
Pitzer
The Young Lion
PSSHH I got you matador
choknater
Smash Obsessed
x-23 is the second best at what she does
GreenAce
Smash Ace
I got 20th.
My first round I beat evil rashaan.
My second round I was trolling because I was mad cocky because I just beat the best person in my pool and then he wolverined me for first round. Then we played it out he won 2-1.
I'm still beating myself up for sleeping on someone in tourney. I later found he got third at the canadian national =/
Then I had to play floe in loser semis having no she hulk experience it was pretty hard. But I was outplaying it was just last match I got a combo on his last character xfactored to kill him. Then I dropped it. Nervous johns.
If I beat floe I would of had to play rashaan which i'm %100 sure I would of beat again. Then I would have to beat nyc fab who isn't really that good imo. He rode through winners because all the good people were in losers.
Then after that my other two matches would of been luisthepanda who's my friend and I usually beat like 9-1, then emp remix which I wasen't really afraid to play against at all.
No offense to rashaan though he's a good player I just adapted like the first 10 seconds of the match so I wouldn't let spiderman get anything.
But ceo was fun. NOS all day err day. Beat marlin in a mm. Hung out with rashaan and jago all day. Mad legit.
Also I have the wesker and phoneix on the east just saiyan.
My first round I beat evil rashaan.
My second round I was trolling because I was mad cocky because I just beat the best person in my pool and then he wolverined me for first round. Then we played it out he won 2-1.
I'm still beating myself up for sleeping on someone in tourney. I later found he got third at the canadian national =/
Then I had to play floe in loser semis having no she hulk experience it was pretty hard. But I was outplaying it was just last match I got a combo on his last character xfactored to kill him. Then I dropped it. Nervous johns.
If I beat floe I would of had to play rashaan which i'm %100 sure I would of beat again. Then I would have to beat nyc fab who isn't really that good imo. He rode through winners because all the good people were in losers.
Then after that my other two matches would of been luisthepanda who's my friend and I usually beat like 9-1, then emp remix which I wasen't really afraid to play against at all.
No offense to rashaan though he's a good player I just adapted like the first 10 seconds of the match so I wouldn't let spiderman get anything.
But ceo was fun. NOS all day err day. Beat marlin in a mm. Hung out with rashaan and jago all day. Mad legit.
Also I have the wesker and phoneix on the east just saiyan.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Spiderman(A)-Ammy(B)-Wesker(B)
Good lord, I've created a monster!
Good lord, I've created a monster!
GreenAce
Smash Ace
If spiderman was scary lol
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
I'm assuming you just stayed off the ground as much as possible?
Serris
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
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Trying to break the 628,000 mark with Phoenix is a pain. When do you guys want to do the lobby?
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Edit: No I can't do it right now, my router is busy.