Twisted Fate Mafia [D3 BEGINS, DEADLINE: 3/8 at 11:59 PM EST]

[Maven89]

very very rare instances where lying can win the game, but lying to lie is atrocious.

There's a lot of options in between those two options, why did you chose to just list the most extreme examples?

 

[#HBC | J]

Meta commenting isn't being involved in the discussion!

It wasn't a meta comment? I posted about things regarding the community's views on liking posts. It has nothing pertaining to the game besides just starting a line of conversation with Dastrn, but it isn't meta commenting soooo yeah.

 

[#HBC | J]

There's a lot of options in between those two options, why did you chose to just list the most extreme examples?

Because it's what I choose to believe plus exacerbating the current conversation of LAL as PL is droning for me. It nets nothing to find scum and nets only content anyone can chime in on and say "here's my opinion". Do you feel the conversation has a trajectory of success to finding scum minus that of getting us out of RVS?

 

[Corps phoenix]

There's a weird dichotomy between J and Maven where Maven insists J is not participating, but it all feels like it's a matter of interpretation. I'd have to say that J's comments about the current way things are going is accurate as to how I feel, but I don't believe Maven has ill-intent in prodding J over semantics. The problem I face right now is that nobody has done anything notably scummy yet you have some people reacting to the highest wagon (Spak) like there is merit towards it. I don't know why Delamar asked me if I think there's merit in it given I answered how I felt about it - which is that I don't think there is, serious or not.

I understand the mentality of bursting out of RVS but a couple of votes with intent of pressure without stating intentions isn't going to stifle anyone, which is why I'm not bothered that Ryker is voting me.

 

[Dastrn]

Vote Dastrn

I agree strongly with the "Sometimes Town needs to lie" sentiment. I don't like Dastrn's "Lynch all liars policy."

Dastrn I'd like to hear more from you. I'm voting to put pressure on.

This coming from your 2nd post of the game, and your first post of substance. This post is my 6th of the game, 5th of significant substance, and even my "random vote" carried meaning.

Lynch All Liars has been around long enough as a concept in mafia games to be capitalized when referred to. It's a well-known concept. With that said, the game has evolved a lot over the years, and people tend to play more gambits and be more clever in general than they used to when I first started playing forum mafia.

I believe more strongly in "Lynch Inactives Day 1" than I do in "Lynch All Liars." Yes, that is different from my statement in my post earlier that can very simply be read as equating the two. My reasons have been stated through inference already, but I'll be more explicit now, for your sake, and others who are wondering:

1. I wanted people to react to the 2 contracts. Putting them on roughly equal ground opens up the discussion without people being influenced to agree or disagree with my post based on my opinion. Since my post is neutral, each response has to take its own position, either maintaining the neutrality between the two ideas, or holding one above the other. Either way, my goal of getting people to talk about these two ideas is achieved. And my greater goal of breaking RVS within 24 hours is achieved.

2. Regarding Lynch Inactives Day 1: I have played in far too many games where inactive scum players just sort of coast while active players debate between each other and let the inactives watch as active townies chew each other apart. Inactivity allows a player to hide without giving the town anything to read, which is explicitly anti-town behavior. Mafia is a game of imbalance and incomplete information. If everyone had all information, town would win every game. Therefore, it's in town's interest for everyone to be active so that we all have something to read and study. Outside of very blatant scum-behavior Day 1, (I think Salt mini-mafia actually is an example of this) I'll always tend to want to see inactives lynched Day 1. And I'll use a lot of my activity during Day 1 and part of Day 2 focusing heavily on activity. You'll see a lot of that toDay.

3. Regarding Lynch All Liars: To reiterate: the game has evolved in such a way that this contract is not as important as it once was, but it still holds tremendous power if we keep it in mind. Certain kinds of lies are inexplicable without scum motivation, and when we see these things, pressure should land on that player heavily. It's not absolute. Gambits are necessary. I've seen a cop claim on Day 4 in a game in which the cop was killed and janitored or something, and the claimed cop was a vanilla townie but had such a strong read that they just claimed cop to get the lynch and setup the endgame. Sometimes, it's a great move to lie. Other times, not so much.

4. Regarding your 'pressure vote': If you want to pressure vote, you should probably consider not to "pressure" someone who is among the 3 or 4 most active players, particularly activity with significant substance. I don't spend much time at all posts that don't have substance behind them. If you want information from me, ask for it. You will find that you don't need a "pressure vote" on me to get me to talk.
I want to be clear: I don't mean this to come across as any kind of threat, nor am I in any way feeling bothered at having a vote on me. He asked, and I answered. But I don't hesitate to give my opinion on this "pressure vote" nor any other oddity that occurs. There's no pressure vote on Kantrip, ThatSmasherYouKnow, who haven't posted, nor was there consideration that RR, J, (and you yourself) have only 2 posts total thus far. If you buy into the Lynch Inactives Day 1 contract, then question me, and pressure vote an inactive.

 

[Spak]

Do you feel the conversation has a trajectory of success to finding scum minus that of getting us out of RVS?

Getting us out of RVS is what is trying to be accomplished, so I don't know what you mean by "minus getting us out of RVS". Seeing as nothing big has happened yet, I don't really see what else we could be talking about.

There's a weird dichotomy between J and Maven where Maven insists J is not participating, but it all feels like it's a matter of interpretation.

Is it a matter of interpretation that there's a weird dichotomy between J and Maven, or a matter of interpretation that Maven insists J is not participating? I don't know what's supposedly up for interpretation, nor do I see a dichotomy.

 

[Dastrn]

Correction to my last post: I referenced post counts for a few players, but I forgot to update my post count tracker before making that post, so I was off, particularly with J. My bad on that. I didn't at all mean to misrepresent anyone's inactivity. Simply made a mistake.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Getting us out of RVS is what is trying to be accomplished, so I don't know what you mean by "minus getting us out of RVS". Seeing as nothing big has happened yet, I don't really see what else we could be talking about.

Is it a matter of interpretation that there's a weird dichotomy between J and Maven, or a matter of interpretation that Maven insists J is not participating? I don't know what's supposedly up for interpretation, nor do I see a dichotomy.

Maven insists that J posting (participation) is not actually participation because it does not fall in line what he considers to be participation, thus creating a dichotomy.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Dastrn you should go back to when you said RR was confirmed town instead of writing these paragraphs about how to play Mafia. I think everyone has a decent understanding here and you don't need to treat people like they're grade school.

 

[#HBC | J]

I agree with what you are saying Corps actually 100%.

I will give Maven a bit of leeway since he has a tendancy to have fascination with my slot in terms of getting me to post so I'm kind of going along with it to help get myself more situated in the game. I don't think anything he's posted yet is scummy, I feel it's a bit brazen if I were to call it a word.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'm also going to second the Mafia 101 posts need to cease and desist. This isn't the place/thread for that type of talk even if we are masking it as "getting us out of RVS".

 

[Dastrn]

Mirroring (and expanding upon) what Spak is saying:

I think it's important to find a way out of RVS as soon as an opportunity presents itself. I know we're in some meta-chat here a bit, but that's ok because it gets people expressing actual opinions of substance, and how they express those opinions is a very important thing for many of us who learn to trust our gut with people.

Furthermore, we then get to compare (and perhaps contrast) those opinions with how the player plays the rest of the game. Players must communicate pro-town concepts, regardless of alignment, right? But scum players have to find ways to achieve anti-town goals that contradict those stated opinions. Multiple reads of the entire game every 5 or 8 RL days will help us see these contradictions at times.

 

[Spak]

Maven insists that J posting (participation) is not actually participation because it does not fall in line what he considers to be participation, thus creating a dichotomy.

Oh, OK. I didn't think of the possibility of a dichotomy of two different interpretations of participation. That makes more sense now.

 

[Dastrn]

I was asked to explain my beliefs about these ideas. That merits an explanation of each.

I was asked with an accompanying vote. That merits a more in depth explanation.

I won't apologize. I'm thorough, and I put myself all the way out there for everyone to read. When any other questions or challenges come up regarding those concepts or that post, I'll refer to that one big post instead of explaining again unless something specific needs addressed that wasn't addressed previously.

 

[Corps phoenix]

You can explain things without making it turn into a lecture.

 

[Maven89]

Dastrn now I need you to decide who is scummiest and towniest

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

#HBC | J how do you feel about Pheonix thus far?

 

[#HBC | J]

#HBC | J how do you feel about Pheonix thus far?

I like them so far. I can't dislike someone who is posting exactly the same thoughts I am having and someone I've posted twice now saying I agree with them.

Vibes good, content is null though.

 

[Dastrn]

Dastrn now I need you to decide who is scummiest and towniest

I'll state my opinions, and ask you the same question. Turn for turn, fair enough? Given how directly you demanded my opinion, I'll assume you'll grant me equal access to your reads.

I don't give town lists. Town lists are scum kill lists.

My vote represents my most recent top scum read. It's early, and my read is as strong as it is early.

 

[Corps phoenix]

I don't know your meta but that's a poorly hashed reason to not respond to someone, and also makes it really easy for you to dodge something that you can just fall back on.

Vote: Dastrn

I wasn't sure about your approach but so far you haven't really impressed me.

 

[Maven89]

Yeah I'm not liking that answer either

Suspicious people so far, for me, are Dastrn, Ryker, and Spak. No one is town, though I had Dastrn as my town lean until recently, due to him doing what I accused J of doing

 

[Spak]

Yeah I'm not liking that answer either

Suspicious people so far, for me, are Dastrn, Ryker, and Spak. No one is town, though I had Dastrn as my town lean until recently, due to him doing what I accused J of doing

Why are you suspicious of Ryker and me?

 

[Maven89]

Ryker for awkward RVS and you for gut reasons relating to what you've contributed. It's unfair to say someone hasn't contributed enough in their posts at this stage, there's definitely people who have contributed less, but gut is still telling me to keep an eye on you because of light content.

 

[Dastrn]

I don't know your meta but that's a poorly hashed reason to not respond to someone, and also makes it really easy for you to dodge something that you can just fall back on.

Vote: Dastrn

I wasn't sure about your approach but so far you haven't really impressed me.

How would you prefer I respond?

I have never been one to give town reads out. Consensus town reads are the easiest scum night kills. Just kill someone no one suspects, so that all of the suspicions from the previous day still lie around to bicker about.

I don't have any strong scum reads. My only scum read so far has been Spak, and my vote is on him. I didn't like how he responded to the RVS pressure. That's not a terribly strong read, but it's what I've got for now. None of this transition has yet drawn enough of my attention to pull me towards a scum read on anyone since. I'll reread this evening, but for now, that's what I've got, and I gave it.

Yeah I'm not liking that answer either

Suspicious people so far, for me, are Dastrn, Ryker, and Spak. No one is town, though I had Dastrn as my town lean until recently, due to him doing what I accused J of doing

Was it the meta-commenting that you don't like? I'm asking just for clarification.

 

[Spak]

Ryker for awkward RVS and you for gut reasons relating to what you've contributed. It's unfair to say someone hasn't contributed enough in their posts at this stage, there's definitely people who have contributed less, but gut is still telling me to keep an eye on you because of light content.

Fair enough. Your Ryker suspicion makes sense at this stage and I guess I can't argue with a gut read.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

#HBC | Laundry I'm in the process of helping a family member move, so consider me slightly V/LA. Until about... Tuesday/Wednesday. I'm sure I'll have a bit of time here and there, but just in case I don't this is why.

 

[Maven89]

How would you prefer I respond?

I have never been one to give town reads out. Consensus town reads are the easiest scum night kills. Just kill someone no one suspects, so that all of the suspicions from the previous day still lie around to bicker about.

I don't have any strong scum reads. My only scum read so far has been Spak, and my vote is on him. I didn't like how he responded to the RVS pressure. That's not a terribly strong read, but it's what I've got for now. None of this transition has yet drawn enough of my attention to pull me towards a scum read on anyone since. I'll reread this evening, but for now, that's what I've got, and I gave it.



Was it the meta-commenting that you don't like? I'm asking just for clarification.

I believe town reads help town out more then mafia because it forces mafia to give town reads, which limits their play. And generally mafia have a pretty good sense of who is doing good and who is doing bad.

It's the large posts that have nothing to do with hunting people and the cagey response to me asking you for reads

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

Blargh pls don't lynch me What did I miss?

 

[Maven89]

Well none of that is a good sign

 

[Dastrn]

I believe town reads help town out more then mafia because it forces mafia to give town reads, which limits their play. And generally mafia have a pretty good sense of who is doing good and who is doing bad.

I'd disagree with this point. Mafia can drop a town read on just about anyone if they want. They can reinterpret their scum-mates as town to try to sway pressure off of them. Or if they are bussing (directly or indirectly), they can just agree with other obvious town reads, or say they like the manner of questioning of someone, or whatever. They know who's scum and who's not, so they can make friends by giving their town reads to people who will think "I want this guy around, since he reads me town" playing on people's survival instinct.

Town giving out town reads just gives mafia a chance to say "well, everyone already agrees that this guy is town, so when we kill him and he flips town, that won't change anything or give any new information."

If I was scum, I'd hope you'd all give me your strong town reads constantly. It's gift-wrapping my night decisions for me if I'm playing scum.

What are your thoughts on this?
Corps phoenix , since you were the first to dislike my post about reads, I'll ask you the same. What do you think about these ideas?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I like them so far. I can't dislike someone who is posting exactly the same thoughts I am having and someone I've posted twice now saying I agree with them.

Vibes good, content is null though.

Feeling conflicted on Phoenix myself mostly since it feels so....null and not there to care to me.

Earlish feel read for me but one that I am looking at and trying to figure out.

It feels off to me on early stuff.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fair enough. Your Ryker suspicion makes sense at this stage and I guess I can't argue with a gut read.

Who do you think is scum right now off a best guess?

 

[Spak]

Who do you think is scum right now off a best guess?

My best guess is Ryker. I agree that he had a wonky RVS stage, and his most recent post was a random switch to Corps with no justification after Maven accused him of dodging. Seems like he wants to appear active, but hasn't seriously commented on anything that has happened yet.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know why Delamar asked me if I think there's merit in it given I answered how I felt about it [...]

You're not new to mafia, correct?

 

[Corps phoenix]

How would you prefer I respond?

I have never been one to give town reads out. Consensus town reads are the easiest scum night kills. Just kill someone no one suspects, so that all of the suspicions from the previous day still lie around to bicker about.

I don't have any strong scum reads. My only scum read so far has been Spak, and my vote is on him. I didn't like how he responded to the RVS pressure. That's not a terribly strong read, but it's what I've got for now. None of this transition has yet drawn enough of my attention to pull me towards a scum read on anyone since. I'll reread this evening, but for now, that's what I've got, and I gave it.

I have an issue with the fact it took you this long to roll out your read on Spak, and instead you've just spent time sitting in your armchair, however, I'm really just guessing at this point that this is how you play. Even if you're a bit analytical there is a vibe that you're analyzing things for the sake of analyzing them, not to develop your reads further. That's where I lie with you and so long as you continue to show the same behavior I will probably keep my vote on you.

You're not new to mafia, correct?

I got what he meant but my answer still remained the same.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

My best guess is Ryker. I agree that he had a wonky RVS stage, and his most recent post was a random switch to Corps with no justification after Maven accused him of dodging. Seems like he wants to appear active, but hasn't seriously commented on anything that has happened yet.

Oh? Tell me more. What about my RVS was wonky? What had Infaioed to comment on at the time of my last post? This is an interesting opinion you have.

Lynch all liars is ****ing stupid.
Lynch inactives is correct most of the time.
J is actually playing the game atm more than most of the recent games I've played with him, so Maven is high.
Dastrn not posting town reads is ****ing dumb, but that is an old opinion that used to be prevalent in DGames and Dastrn is like a relic unburied from the ancient past.
Gheb, J, Dastrn, we're all willing to lynch inactive if we have someone at under 10 posts at the end of D1, yeah?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Vote Spak

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I got what he meant but my answer still remained the same.

I'm sorry? I think I asked you a question ...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, J, Dastrn, we're all willing to lynch inactive if we have someone at under 10 posts at the end of D1, yeah?

I don't normally gauge activity by post count but yeah.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Spak, have I missed your.read.on Dastrn?