Twisted Fate Mafia [D3 BEGINS, DEADLINE: 3/8 at 11:59 PM EST]

[Xatres]

Apologies for the delay, my router is being a jerk.

Maven89 and ~ Gheb ~ : I've completed my reread of Dastrn from D1.

Short version: Maven, I see more of what you meant by Dastrn being involved in the Kantrip lynch, but I still wouldn't say he was a driving force. Gheb, I reread Kantrip's case on Dastrn, and I still hold that it was very weak. However, I don't think it was *meant* to be a strong case.

Long Version:

I don't see any problem with Ryu's content being a lot of questions and non-stances considering there's not a lot of content in this game that warrants hard stances.

Vote: Dastrn

Mechanical play is one thing, but I really dislike how much time he spent on taking credit for getting the game out of RVS phase and then doing nothing but explaining mafia theory in horrendous walls. Concern about liking posts having the potential to send private information isn't something town would worry about because mafia can send private information to each other all the time anyways. The fact that a very mechanical player was worried about a mechanical advantage from sending private information via likes suggests to me he is mafia worried that town might take advantage of likes to communicate with each other. Of course he could have voiced concerns in private with the mod about this and could just be worried about it in a mafia-theory fairness sense, too.

So here we have Kantrip jumping in with his first major contribution of the game. He criticizes Dastrn for two points:

1) Mechanical play
2) A bad case on RR

Kantrip spends the majority of this post writing to the mechancial side of things. Having played a number of games with Kantrip in the past, and having a playstyle similar to Dastrn's, I've seen these objections before. Kantrip hates it when you get bogged down talking mafia shop rather than scumhunting.

The problem here is that Dastrn had already spent a good deal of time taking heat for playing mechanically, particularly from the likes of Corps Phoenix. The issue of Dastrn focusing on inactivity and lynching liars and everything else had been talked to death. But Kantrip was coming into the game fresh, and all he saw was a wall of mechanical talk over and over again.

I don't give a **** about your mechanical play. I'm voting you because your Ryu push is bad. And to answer yours and Ryker's questions, no I am not seriously pushing you for what you said about liking posts.

If I misinterpreted Maven's post then that's my bad and I agree with the sentiment if it's about playing as scum.

Here we go. Kantrip pushes back when people criticize him for pushing Dastrn on mechanical play. He says that despite using more landscape in his previous post to complain about mechanical play, he really voted for Dastrn because of the bad case on Ryu.

What follows is a brief back and forth discussion among the town, followed by:

Dastrn is very frustrating to deal with but I think he's town.

J what do you make of Gheb in this game?

Corps phoenix I don't think I know you but you seem to have mafia experience. Played on smashboards before? Read on Ryu?

Kantrip accepts Dastrn's answers and moves on, just as every other person in town had done towards Dastrn the whole game. Plenty of people pushed Dastrn on his various views on this game, and Dastrn consistently presented even-tempered and well-reasoned responses. Kantrip responded to this and put Dastrn in his town pile.

At this point, everyone should be moving on, right?

Dastrn, I threw out a gut feeling and also provided a contrasting motive for it. I am not going to seriously pursue a read on the basis of rules discussions nor am I going to continue to talk about it in the future. I worded things badly as I didn't edit and just typed thoughts as they came up and this is the last I'm going to say about that.

Kantrip seems to think so.

But then Gheb's case happened, and suddenly the attention snapped back on Kantrip.

Dastrn has two things to say about Gheb's case.

He needs to convince 6 people you're scum. Or at the very least, convince 6 people that there isn't a better lynch target and that we're running out of time. I could easily fall into the latter, but would expect a hell of a lot more from someone who plans on the group following him for the former.

I'm not ready to switch my vote. I expect more.

Post 354 is what we needed to see. My only problem with this case is it's primarily a piggyback case of things I've already said, and I was hoping you'd have more to bring to the table than just repeating what I've said. I don't disagree with you, but I want more.

We need more people chiming in on this case.

Specifically, I would like feedback from Maven89 , @#HBC | Ryker , and @#HBC | J

Dastrn:

A) Is not willing to vote Kantrip immediately following Gheb's case, but he views Kantrip as a potential policy lynch because of either his previous inactivity or his connections.

B) Points out that Gheb's case consists only of rehashing Dastrn's defense against Kantrip's push earlier.

C) Goes out of his way to ask other players for input. This is typical of Dastrn's play. He wants all of the town involved, so that even a bad lynch produces some kind of data.

For instance:

One more thought for all of you:

If Kantrip is the play today, and he flips scum, do you think that implicates anyone else? If so, who and for what reason?

If Kantrip is the play and flips town, what might that imply?

He may be a good candidate because of the information we'd glean from his flip, but he might not. I'd always prefer to lynch a solid candidate over a policy candidate if we have the chance, and lynching someone with links that give us direction D2 is always nice.

If we can do that, great. If it doesn't seem like the best play, inactive lynching is always acceptable to me.

I'll update my post counter this afternoon sometime and post it so everyone can get a somewhat helpful, somewhat concrete measure of activity. I recognize volume doesn't equal quality but it's one measurement tool we have, and I won't neglect it.

Dastrn makes a point to say he wants data if we're going to lynch Kantrip. He also openly states he's still willing to lynch inactives. He's not playing to lynch Kantrip at all costs. Not being a "driving force" for his lynch. He's just wants a D1 result that's good for town.

Somewhere in all this, we get Spak's pseudo-defense of Kantrip, but hardly anyone else speaks up until very late in the Day.

Eventually, with half a day remaining, Dastrn "rolls over" and accepts Kantrip's lynch.

I accept the inevitability of the Kantrip lynch. He's the best candidate right now. I'd like to hold my vote back til perhaps the hammer just in case someone jumps the gun and ends conversation abruptly. (See scum lolazerz in Salt Mafia for an example).

I'm around all day today, with the exception of 5-6:15 or so.

@Kantrip , I think if you've got stuff to say, now's the time to start talking, because it doesn't appear that you'll have the chance to say much after about 12 hours from now.

But even then, he encourages Kantrip to defend himself. Kantrip gives it his all, but town lynches him anyway.

 

[Xatres]

That's my analysis of Dastrn/Knatrip D1. It basically boils down to this:

1) Kantrip showed up late, dove in, and made a case on the best candidate he could see at the time.
2) Dastrn offers a defense.
3) Kantrip accepts the defense and they both move on.
4) Gheb arrives with 1.5 days left in the game, resurrects the Kantrip v. Dastrn issue that should have died, and starts a wagon on Kantrip.
5) Dastrn behaves cautiosly and encourages town to consider all options.
6) Eventaully, Dastrn accepts that he won't be able to push town in another direction.

Therefore: Dastrn was not a driving force in Kantrip lynch, and in fact, the issue would have died if not for Gheb's intervention.

 

[Xatres]

Why are you so confident about J? Catch something I've missed? Know something I don't?

My opposition to a J lynch comes down to two factors:

1) J's been somewhat of a non-entity in the game. Making stances and statements, but not being a driving force behind any actions. I don't think his lynch would offer us any significant data at this stage.

2) I think the potential cases to be made against Gheb or Spak are much stronger than the case that could be made against J.

 

[Maven89]

That's a good analysis Xatres

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What's up with you two guys pretending to have use for "data". Like, lynching pro-active slots at this point is so ridiculously counter-productive I can't believe you guys earnestly suggest to do that and just not give a **** about the people that actually ruin this game.

The truth is that at this rate we have to prevent the worst from happening before we can go on the offense. We're currently losing the game and the last thing I want is lylo to be up to like TSYK, Ryu and Corps to make the right call. If that's your plan you might as well give up the game right now, it amounts to pretty much to same tbh.

 

[Dastrn]

Xatres does one of those two options give us more information on a flip? Analyse both flips for both players.

What are the chances that we have exactly 1 scum between the 2?
What will either flip on either imply about the other?

Now outside of the information portion of their flips, which seems more scummy to you? It seems likely that one of us is going to have to trust the other to get our votes in sync for toDay, and while you've got a solid read on my slot, I haven't had the chance to get the same read on yours due to your predecessor.

I'm not saying I get to drive you around or anything, but I am curious how in sync we already are, and what direction you prefer currently.

REMINDER TO ALL:
We have 30 hours until deadline!

 

[Dastrn]

What's up with you two guys pretending to have use for "data". Like, lynching pro-active slots at this point is so ridiculously counter-productive I can't believe you guys earnestly suggest to do that and just not give a **** about the people that actually ruin this game.

The truth is that at this rate we have to prevent the worst from happening before we can go on the offense. We're currently losing the game and the last thing I want is lylo to be up to like TSYK, Ryu and Corps to make the right call. If that's your plan you might as well give up the game right now, it amounts to pretty much to same tbh.

How on earth do you expect to be able to play an information game? It's not as if we can just sit on our thumbs and wait for a cop to just point all the bad guys out for us.

I agree that the inactives are ruining the game, and I likely will refuse to play with many of these players in the future, but IF we can salvage the game, it's not going to be by blind shotting an inactive.

#HBC | Laundry prods/warnings to missing players please?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I mean, if you actually wanna go with the information route we'd actually be lynching Dastrn toDay. How would that be a good idea? Meanwhile Ryu is coasting his way to Day 3 without doing anything. I can't be the only one to find that unacceptable ...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How on earth do you expect to be able to play an information game?

Certainly not by lynching the few players that actually make information available through pro-actively posting their stances, interacting with each other and contributing to discussion. I don't need to lynch you to get "information" on you but you'll never know about inactive slots unless you see their flips. If it comes down to it it's still possible to figure out stuff about players by just reading their posts and analyze their stances [ie what Xatres just did]. Can't do that with players that are just not playing.

 

[Xatres]

Dastrn : I still need to do a reread of D2. I'll let you know how I feel between Gheb and Spak once I'm done.

~ Gheb ~ : Your not wrong that having inactives in LyLo could be a big problem for town. However, I think we have a higher likelihood of hitting scum between you and Spak than we do between TSYK, RR, and Phoenix.

 

[Spak]

I mean, if you actually wanna go with the information route we'd actually be lynching Dastrn toDay.

But lynching a slot that is a town-read from most of the game would be the complete opposite of scum-hunting. I agree that we don't want inactive players next phase, but do we want to take a shot in the dark this phase to kill an inactive and have no info to go off of in LyLo (if scum is successful in their kill), or do you want us to lynch someone who has interactions so we can analyze their play, get info from it, and make a more informed lynch to have a better chance of saving the game?

 

[Spak]

Also, could someone elaborate on me v. Gheb being TvS? I've seen many people bringing it up casually, but must've missed the explanation.

 

[Dastrn]

No, you're missing the part about us trying to hit someone scummy. The info/links part of the equation is simply the 2nd half of the equation that I think is required for us to have a chance to save this game, if it can be saved.

The 1st half is targeting a player that is displaying scummy behavior, and several of us think you and spak are likely targets.

How's this? YOU TELL ME which you prefer? Lynching someone with no links and just hoping for the best? Or lynching some one who you genuinely actually believe to be scum and giving us more time?

You said my name. Do you think I'm scum? Because if you're like the rest of the room and are reading me as town, but you lynch me for information, that gets you to lylo.

So do you shoot for scum or just shoot blind and hope you flinched with the right luck?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd also like to make it clear that I don't actually suggest to lynch of an inactive slot [yet] as much as I'm trying to make it clear that lynching an inactive will forever and under every corcumstance be a better option than lynching an active slots on grounds of "information" obtained.

However, I think we have a higher likelihood of hitting scum between you and Spak than we do between TSYK, RR, and Phoenix.

That's actually pretty laughable, if only by sheer statistics. With 3 out of 12 players being mafia there's an pretty high chance that between any three slots there's at least one mafioso involved.

You also owe an explanation on why Spak is scummy I think. I'm like 90% sure he's not.

 

[Dastrn]

Also, could someone elaborate on me v. Gheb being TvS? I've seen many people bringing it up casually, but must've missed the explanation.

a scum flip on one of you will likely mean a town alignment on the other. You've bickered a lot, and clearly aren't S+S. So it follows that if one flips scum, the other is likely town.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] we can analyze their play, get info from it, and make a more informed lynch to have a better chance of saving the game?

This will not actually happen.

So do you shoot for scum or just shoot blind and hope you flinched with the right luck?

Exceeding, unexcused inactivity is a scum-tell at this point, y/n?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You've bickered a lot

... we've actually had almost no interaction. I have mentioned him at some point near the end of Day 1 as an alternative lynch to Kantrip but that's pretty much it. We've not "bickered" once though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also that's laughably naive logic tbh if you think that "bickering" is enough to entirely dissconnect two players from each other. As if that could never happen to two townies. Or mafiosi just distance themselves from each other [which happens in just about every game here].

 

[Spak]

I've been mentioned or quoted by Gheb literally 10 times this game. I don't think that counts as bickering a lot.

 

[Dastrn]

Exceeding, unexcused inactivity is a scum-tell at this point, y/n?

It's become worse than a scum-tell. It's a "ruining D-games and should land you on an unwelcome list" tell.

The problem is that we have 6 players remotely active and 4 inactives. And I don't think 3 out of those 4 are scum. I don't think 2 of them are scum. I think there are likely active scum, and I increasingly believe you are one of them.

You've yet to answer how we'd handle Day 3 if we blind shoot an inactive and mislynch.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Certainly not by lynching the few players that actually make information available through pro-actively posting their stances, interacting with each other and contributing to discussion. I don't need to lynch you to get "information" on you but you'll never know about inactive slots unless you see their flips. If it comes down to it it's still possible to figure out stuff about players by just reading their posts and analyze their stances [ie what Xatres just did]. Can't do that with players that are just not playing.

Players are playing, please stop with this nonsense. What the hell has gotten into everyone lately? Why are you so gloomy and negative about every aspect of the game and looking to pin blame elswhere regarding if town loses or not? Let's just spin a hypothetical here and say town does lose - are you just gonna blame everyone else and say it was a bad game? I certainly hope not and I can only idly keep my mouth shut before long that I just want to write posts like these ones insisting that people maybe stop being negative nancies and look at this in a more productive manner. It also is rather irritating that it seems like you only want to get rid of players who you deem are not contributing in case they're around for LyLo. Does that make them scum or policy lynch? I know you've been saying Maven is scum/traitor but I have only seen you respond to me once and not follow up with your own pressure on Maven. If it were a case that I didn't think you two were aligned that I'd definitely be voting you.

 

[Dastrn]

Dastrn - town. Will not elaborate [even upon request] unless he's about to get lynched.

I'd like you to explain this now.

 

[Corps phoenix]

I won't be playing another game if this continues. This is honestly pathetic and I feel no sympathy to you, Maven, or any other baby with a stinky diaper.

 

[Corps phoenix]

From my perspective the lynch is gonna fall on Ryker which is the same scenario that got Kantrip lynched. Nobody is taking a hard stance on anything and we're bashing our heads together on different ideals. Just keep it really simple if you have to, and clearly state where your head is at. None of this "well I dislike.." No. State town or scum.

 

[Dastrn]

Ryker is town. I will not vote for him even if it means he is L-1 and I cause a no lynch.

I just did some rereading and decided that Spak is most likely town and that pushes me firmly into Gheb = scum territory.

My thoughts haven't changed much. Gheb pulling out the stops on Kantrip was surprising to say the least, moreso that you can somehow make a whole case based on two or three posts. I don't know if anyone asked me if I played Mafia before but yes I have played mafia like I play it right now.

I add Gheb/Spak there because I think one of them is Mafia but not the other, especially telling that Spak went out of his way to fully drop a post like thay. Sole impression of Kantrip so far is that "reads too far into things" and I don't believe his behavior of reading too far into Dastrn's meta is scummy, especially when I did it myself. The notion of Spak defending his partner (Kantrip) in the way he did is unfathomable to me and I have overall not liked Spak even if I came to his side before and didn't see why he was being voted earlier. My reasoning back then being he was caught in a RVS situation and him responding anyway where people were treating it RVS would just be determined null, but there's a lack of initiative on his end and it boggles my mind that someone can again - respond like he was writing a case about a case that didn't even mention him. Sole impression of him is that he likes to cover all his bases which I do not like because it looks like he doesn't want to slip up so he tries to preach to the choir; If Dastrn had an evil twin it would be Spak.

Just got home from school and I'm reading up.
My reasoning for walling on Gheb's post is that everybody seemed to be like "yeah, I guess Kantrip looks scummy because of the arguments stated here" and nobody was actually looking at it with a town!Kantrip lens. If I were scum, I probably would have gone with thread sentiment (which would have made my life a lot easier) and go on with my life, but I wanted to show how someone could see town intent in Kantrip's posting. I don't know how unskilled of a player you think I am, but I find it hard to believe that someone would wall that much to defend a scummate.

The "bickering" I referred to between spak/gheb was not about them calling each other scum. It was about the sharp disagreement about Kantrip.
I don't believe a scum spak would have fought against the kantrip case so hard. I agree with Corps' read linked above that they are likely TvS.

The green is what makes me most confident at this point that spak is town.

I really don't see a better option to lynch than Gheb at this point.

 

[Spak]

Ryker is town. I will not vote for him even if it means he is L-1 and I cause a no lynch.

I just did some rereading and decided that Spak is most likely town and that pushes me firmly into Gheb = scum territory.






The "bickering" I referred to between spak/gheb was not about them calling each other scum. It was about the sharp disagreement about Kantrip.
I don't believe a scum spak would have fought against the kantrip case so hard. I agree with Corps' read linked above that they are likely TvS.

The green is what makes me most confident at this point that spak is town.

I really don't see a better option to lynch than Gheb at this point.

So you think that Gheb and I are TvS because I walled on one of his posts about Kantrip? Does that make Corps and Maven TvS because they walled about Gheb?

 

[Maven89]

What? He said he was town reading you because you fought against Kantrip's lynch, when he figures ScumSpak would just fall in line with it.

 

[Dastrn]

I was typing some stuff but yeah, what maven just said.

 

[Spak]

What? He said he was town reading you because you fought against Kantrip's lynch, when he figures ScumSpak would just fall in line with it.

Not in that order specifically, but he and Corps both think one of Gheb and I is town and one of us is scum based on me walling on his wall of Kantrip. It's a bit concerning that people are trying to put Gheb into a TvS situation with me because I have Gheb as a town lean and I know I'm town. From my PoV it looks like Corps could be trying to set us up for an easy mislynch tomorrow if one of us flips town, and that would be game. I have to eat dinner now, but I'll elaborate on Gheb later if you want.

 

[Maven89]

Finished re-reading

J putting off the Gheb/Kantrip push for several posts, then only to come in at the very end to be "boo I would have been against it" is...really odd. Outside of that, J has shown little agency, and mainly just meandered about. Continuing to push Ryker is bad.

Surprisingly, TSYK was asking quite a bit of questions to people. I saw a real sense of him trying to read. I don't know what we're supposed to do with this slot, but I'm fine with it for the moment. Strong null, with a slight-town lean for meta reasons (being that I remember how he played before)

Something that caught my eye: I don't think Ryker has talked/mentioned me once, outside of a random quote in day 1. It's concerning.

Other then that, nothing much has changed. I'm more comfortable with a Dastrn town lean. Spak is actually looking worse from the Kantrip defense then he was before, but right now not a priority.

I've been on board with a Gheb lynch after Kantrip, for reasons I've been posting since Day 1, and as it is right now, I see no other option. Wanting us to ignore scummy things to vote for an inactive like he's suggesting is bad.

I'm already voting the guy, but the rest of you should come in and vote Gheb too.

 

[Maven89]

Not in that order specifically, but he and Corps both think one of Gheb and I is town and one of us is scum based on me walling on his wall of Kantrip. It's a bit concerning that people are trying to put Gheb into a TvS situation with me because I have Gheb as a town lean and I know I'm town. From my PoV it looks like Corps could be trying to set us up for an easy mislynch tomorrow if one of us flips town, and that would be game. I have to eat dinner now, but I'll elaborate on Gheb later if you want.

Explain your town lean on Gheb

 

[Maven89]

With that, I'm heading out to the movies, I might be back later tonight, if not I'll be here tomorrow

99% certain I'm still voting Gheb, but in case: Vote: Gheb

 

[Maven89]

Oh, right

@Red Ryu need immediate posts from you. What do you make of Gheb, Ryker, and Corp's posts about me?

 

[Maven89]

Clarification: What do you make of Gheb and Ryker, and what do you make of Corp's posts about me?

 

[Dastrn]

#HBC | Laundry prods/warnings to missing players please?

 

[Dastrn]

Also, votecount please.

 

[Xatres]

Finished my D2 reread. Here's a summary of my thoughts on Spak and Gheb.

1) Gheb has indeed been opportunistic and is currently advocating for anti-town policies.

2) Spak gave off some scumtells early D1. His defense of Kantrip is null without more context/flips. And most of his posting since then has been ABOUT his defense of Kantrip.

Long version:

1) Gheb has been opportunistic the whole game. As the game was exiting RVS, Gheb asked if there was a consensus to lynch inactives if they were still an issue at the end of the Day. When everyone agreed, he said 'Awesome!' and threw a vote on MFD (my slot).He was also among the players criticizing Dastrn for his mechanical play, and yet built his case on Kantrip in part because of Kantrip's own annoyance towards it. Then, after Spak's defense/devil's advocate post, we got this in Gheb's #467:

"I'm not sure what Spak was thinking when he went ham on my case especially since I hadn't even responded to Kantrip's counter-argument at that point. Worth lynching him for? I'm not entirely against it I guess."

Gheb set himself up to swing to Spak if need be.

Then, during the Ryker wagon and AFTER Laundry showed up and cast doubt on Ryker's scumminess, Gheb through a vote on Ryker and put him at L-1. He later claimed that he forgot the deadline was extended.

2) Gheb has been hypocritical. One of Gheb's big criticisms of Maven was that he "showed up at the last minute D1 and pushed bad lynches." However, Gheb posted with 1.5 days left in D1, noted the deadline getting super close, and said "Time to start playing seriously!"

Gheb has also bemoaned the inactivity and perceived crappiness of the game, and yet when Maven bemoaned the same, he agreed with Phoenix's post that Maven is "fear-mongering on the lack of activity."

Finally, as noted above, Gheb himself took issue with Dastrn's mechanical play. Then turned around a used the same initial objection by Kantrip as part of his case against him.

3) Gheb has pushed bad logic all game.

The Kantrip case has already been addressed. Gheb resurrected a dead topic and somehow got town to go along with his garbage case.

When TSYK asked Gheb "what he had to say for himself," after Kantrip flipped town, Gheb said that TSYK was just a liable as he was for the lynch. He said he was only 1/7 of the votes and everyone on that wagon was calpable. Except that Gheb started that wagon. He started a wagon on a dead issue. He's more culpable than anyone else. That doesn't make him scum on its own, but arguing that he's not more responsible for the mislynch is disingenuous and scummy.

His current arguments for lynching inactives rather than players we have actually scumminess from reaks. Inactives are a problem, I admit. But I will not lynch an inactive/semi-active player over someone with as many scum-tells as Gheb has right now.

His entire Maven traitor case was weak from the start. That's the kind of argument you make to support other evidence, not the kind of argument that can support a lynch on its own. And later on Gheb even admitted that he had no counterarguments for Maven's defense.

Gheb suggesting we lynch Dastrn if we are serious about looking for info speaks for itself.

Finally, we have this gem:

"What's up with you two guys pretending to have use for "data". Like, lynching pro-active slots at this point is so ridiculously counter-productive I can't believe you guys earnestly suggest to do that and just not give a **** about the people that actually ruin this game.

The truth is that at this rate we have to prevent the worst from happening before we can go on the offense. We're currently losing the game and the last thing I want is lylo to be up to like TSYK, Ryu and Corps to make the right call. If that's your plan you might as well give up the game right now, it amounts to pretty much to same tbh."

First of all: One mislynch is not "losing the game."
Second of all: Saying Corps has been inactive is patently false. His activity comes in waves (as does mine), but he's been a semi-stable presence most of the game.
Third and finally: Arguing that "data" is useless is ridiculous. The whole point of mafia is the management of data. Scum hides data from town. Town discovers data from interactions, PRs, and flips. PRs hide among the town to avoid getting shot and reveal their data when the timing is right. Data management is the ESSENCE of mafia. Arguing that we should sacrifice learning for a policy lynch is absurd.

All that being said.

Unvote

Vote: Gheb

 

[Xatres]

As far as what a Gheb or Spak flip will tell us.

I don't think there's been enough interaction between Gheb and Spak to positively set up a Role.v.Role dynamic. Gheb is my strongest scum read right now (see above) and Spak has been a scum lean for me most of the game. The problem with Spak's slot is that almost the entirety of his interactions since his pseudo-defense of Kantrip has been ABOUT his defense of Kantrip. It's similar to how Dastrn got stuck talking mechanics for most of D1 because people kept on giving him crap for it. We haven't been able to get much NEW data since Spak's jumpiness early D1.

I think Gheb's the play for toDay, and whether he flips town or scum, Spak should be on everyone's reads list for toMorrow.

 

[Dastrn]

Xatres If Gheb flips scum, how do you explain a scum spak's motivation for blasting his kantrip case so hard. Like he argued for himself (I linked it above), if he was scum, the easiest thing would have been to let it happen without fighting so hard to point out his perceived flaws in the case, wouldn't it?

I find it almost impossible that they are SvS

 

[Dastrn]

@Red Ryu , @ThatSmasherYouKnow where are you guys?

@#HBC | J Do you feel comfortable with your current amount of contribution? You've heard several us complain about activity in general, and your name has been tossed around. Do you think your amount of content can be described light, moderate, active, heavily active?