Tripping Return or not?

[El Duderino]

Thats all great couldnt agree more but what is ''powershielding..''?

Here is a video of what it is in Brawl. The timing is somewhat strict, but not enough to prevent frequent power shielding in a match once you adapt.

Supporters of the technique feel it positively adds another technical element to the game. Opposers, like Kink-Link5 and I, find it cuts too much into the tactical value of using attacks to create space, particularly at a mid to close range.

 

[Big-Cat]

But Kink what about PSing projectiles
that's a legit thing I do that all the time. Sometimes I also go for powershields on moves that can be reacted to. I'm sure you have your reason, explain? If it's something like "it's rewarding accidents" then that's not a very good reason because it does come into play (and intentionally, not just by accident) in a lot of places; I use it myself quite regularly.

I've always been iffy about power shielding (and the concept of it) allowing you to reflect projectiles. I feel that really undermines projectiles more than balances them out (in theory at least). I also never understood why shielding has a startup and a recovery. I feel that kind of thing is strictly meta.

EDIT: I really like most of the rest of that though. Not sure if I'd like the way block stun would be handled. I'd be fine with it for sure if it was proportional to pushback (but not to an extreme amount, not so that high blockstun moves push them back far enough to reset to neutral) so that the ending of block stun is intuitive rather than requiring players to learn the timing for every single move. OR if there was some kind of pattern or trend that separate moves' blockstun amounts on the basis of the type of move, like idk smashes having a certain amount, certain types of aerials, etc.

Funny you say learning the specific blockstun of every move is too much (hint, most don't know the blockstun of their moves beyond safe or unsafe), yet you advocate for L-Canceling which can be just as frame precise if not more depending on the release of the aerial (but that's another topic).

What should be done is a mix of Virtua Fighter 5 and Skullgirls' takes on the issue of learning the timing. VF5 provided the startup, recovery, and advantage on hit/block while Skullgirls opted for a hitstun bar that depletes as it wears off.

 

[DrinkingFood]

...shielding doesn't have a startup, it blocks from frame one, with the first few (not sure how many) being a powershield.

Also I wasn't talking about the attacker knowing their blockstun, I was talking about the defender. If the blockstun is assigned with no other basis, you have to learn the timing to break free based on each move rather than a general pattern. Smash has it based on damage, which is ok I think but could be better tbh. It's still usually ~proportional to the strength of the attack. Knockback would probably be a better value to base it off of.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Oww i see! i knew what power shielding was all along! i just didnt know it was called that!
Thanks guys - Sorry but i aint completly down on the Smash competeive lingo...

 

[Dark Phazon]

[delete..]

 

[El Duderino]

...shielding doesn't have a startup, it blocks from frame one, with the first few (not sure how many) being a powershield.

Assuming this info is accurate, Brawl's Powershield(aka Perfectshield) has a window of 8 frames. To give a little point of reference, Melee's L-canceling has 6. However when you take into acount Brawl's random 0-2 frame input delay it could be anywhere from 6 to 8.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Here is a video of what it is in Brawl. The timing is somewhat strict, but not enough to prevent frequent power shielding in a match once you adapt.

Supporters of the technique feel it positively adds another technical element to the game. Opposers, like Kink-Link5 and I, find it cuts too much into the tactical value of using attacks to create space, particularly at a mid to close range.

There's also the aspect of Powershields happening nearly always by happenstance instead of by active prediction, and the fact that given that level of predictive capability, you're certainly better off doing something else to more reliably bait a move. Powershielding just kind of randomly gives disproportionate reward for having happened to press shield at the right time (Or, in Brawl's case, just holding the shield button after an attack and it automatically powershielding every time regardless). The whole mechanic is by its nature bizarre for the smash enviornment. There aren't block strings made to predict an attack half-way into and go for a parry or instant block or whatever else that exist in more traditional fighters that actually actively work with the mechanics present in those games. It's just a thing that happens with both low consistency and that is always a preferable action to take. It's like L-canceling if L-canceling made your moves instantly 400% better and it could only happen if your opponent specifically spot dodges the attack- No cancels on regular whiff, only if they spot dodge it.

Shielding dynamics could be much further expanded upon without relying on something as silly as powershields.

 

[El Duderino]

Happenstance is certainly part of it, but I wouldn't say it's always better to try something else. Sometimes all you can predict is an attack is coming, not exactly what it is or how you should respond. Typically you'd shielding in those cases anyways, so powershielding in Brawl is just adding extra potential benefits.

It is a defensive safety net. A little confidence you can hit the timing, even a fraction of the time, and your odds go up. On the flip side, offensively that means you also have to account for the shield buff. The result is a larger emphasis on striking with moves that mitigate the added defense countering risk. I'm sure some people would call that a unique strategic element to Brawl, but I personally like having greater viability and purpose with entire movesets.

 

[Big-Cat]

...shielding doesn't have a startup, it blocks from frame one, with the first few (not sure how many) being a powershield.

Also I wasn't talking about the attacker knowing their blockstun, I was talking about the defender. If the blockstun is assigned with no other basis, you have to learn the timing to break free based on each move rather than a general pattern. Smash has it based on damage, which is ok I think but could be better tbh. It's still usually ~proportional to the strength of the attack. Knockback would probably be a better value to base it off of.

My mistake, I was thinking of the shield recovery (which still doesn't make sense, and correct me if I'm wrong).

Learn the blockstun of the opponent's attacks is simply part of learning the matchup. I honestly don't think basing it off damage is a good idea. It's be like if EX moves were deemed unsafe because of the damage boost despite the meter expense included with it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think shield drop animations are fine, but I do think they could have specific IASA to allow only certain moves OoS still, plus there would be less of that awkward division between "Do I tap jump on to OoS U-smash or tap jump off and have to assign another button to jump?"

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

no...No...NOO...NOOO..NOOOOOOOOO!!!
, but seriously someone has probably already has said this, but if it was an off/on feature where you could turn the mechanic off or on depending on your game style I would have no problem with it...It's a definite "NO" for online play

 

[Smiles]

1. NO
2. NO
3. Sakuri has mentioned several times in the past that he didnt like the tournament scene. In result, tripping, toadstool jumping, smash ball, slower gameplay, distorted hitbox, snap to ledges... yadda yadda yadda. Point being it makes the game unpredictable and easier for just about anyone to win. Wasnt the Wiis motto somethin like to bridge the generation gap between players (easier games)... or rather making it easier for a child to beat someone with experience and tech skill . If anyone corporate worthy realized that we took melee this far, tripping should be out as the tourney scene made the game as popular as ut is, more respectable then brawl, and last as long as it did. #endrant

 

[El Duderino]

Sakuri has mentioned several times in the past that he didn't like the tournament scene.

Quote?

 

[Teran]

How has this thread got 6 pages?

The answer is no, even casuals find tripping annoying. They like stuff like items because they cause entertaining havoc, and in a way it doesn't feel overtly gay to get destroyed by an item (note: sometimes it can but hey). Tripping is just irritating, items still take skill to get to and incorporate, unbalanced or not, but tripping just ****s you in the ass no matter what.

So the answer is: no. Also reduce the landing lag of aerials without bringing back L-Cancelling.

 

[Shorts]

My sket alert went off and I found Teran. Hi c:

I love tripping.

 

[Hokori]

#1 -No, but with some exceptions.
#2 - Yes.
#3 - Aside from bananas (let the nanners be a regular item for casual play only and don't let Diddy have them), slippery surfaces and some characters D-Tilts, I'd prefer for tripping to be out. Although it doesn't happen every game (at least in my experience), I hate when I trip randomly and it turns the tide of a match.

 

[Ove]

Why do people come to this thread and think they have the universal answer? "Noone wants tripping, it ruins everything /thread"

I find it hilarious that such a small thing as tripping can cause such commotions. Like I have said earlier in this thread: yes, it is an unnecessary random element that doesn't add anything to what items already do, but it's hardly a game breaker.

People saying tripping can turn an entire match are just bad at Smash or haven't actually played Brawl.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Just someone get tripping out of there. I'm probably as casual as they come, and tripping just irritates the **** out of me. Tripping into a wandering Bob-omb is never fun, I assure you all.

 

[Ove]

Just someone get tripping out of there. I'm probably as casual as they come, and tripping just irritates the **** out of me. Tripping into a wandering Bob-omb is never fun, I assure you all.

Honestly, that sounds amusing. Next time, don't dash towards a bob-omb walking towards you only two steps away. Or, preferably if you don't like being hit by wandering bob-ombs, turn them off in the items section.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly, that sounds amusing. Next time, don't dash towards a bob-omb walking towards you only two steps away. Or, preferably if you don't like being hit by wandering bob-ombs, turn them off in the items section.

That doesn't exactly apply if I was turning to run from it, tripped, and got bombed.

 

[Ove]

That doesn't make any sense then, since that's almost impossible. You must have initiated the dash when you were closer than one step away from the bob-omb, and frankly, there are much better options in that situation.

Sounds to me that you deserved that bob-omb. Or take it for what it is, a lol-moment that rarely occurs.

 

[lordvaati]

1. I can Live without it.
2. due to feedback, at the very least not in the randomized form.
3. I actually like the idea of using it for moves(I consider it the Smash series' version of crumpling), but the randomized one made no sense really....and hurt poor, poor Luigi.

 

[Teran]

Why do people come to this thread and think they have the universal answer? "Noone wants tripping, it ruins everything /thread"

I find it hilarious that such a small thing as tripping can cause such commotions. Like I have said earlier in this thread: yes, it is an unnecessary random element that doesn't add anything to what items already do, but it's hardly a game breaker.

People saying tripping can turn an entire match are just bad at Smash or haven't actually played Brawl.

I think what this post shows is a monumental lack of understanding for good game design.

Time to walk off into the sunset and never come back.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sakurai is probably aware of how much tripping is disliked. The competitive community doesn't like it, the casual crowd doesn't like it, 99% certain it'll be in the game somehow as a non-random element rather than in it's current form.

 

[~automatic]

Time to walk off into the sunset and never come back.

inb4 Ove trips.

 

[Ove]

It certainly is a negative factor for the game design, I agree sincerely with that. Random tripping shouldn't be in the game. But I have a hard time understanding people that claim tripping being a game-breaker.

If tripping doesn't change the outcome in a match, can you be harmed by it? The worst part with tripping is that it takes away the feeling of having 100 % control of your character, due to random elements. It's totally understandable that one can dislike tripping for that alone. But once again: take it for what it is, a random factor that almost never will result in anything bad anyway.

 

[κomıc]

Random tripping? Remove it.

Chances of tripping enemies with d-tilt- keep it. I mean, Diddy's banana peel's cause you to slip and trip over. So, certain characters should have the ability to trip others by chance. Never had much problems with tripping since I'm always short hopping or in the air most of the time...

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Trip as a item feature is acceptable.
Banana peel, soap, oil, ice... There are many things that could be used to INTENTIONALLY cause tripping. But random trip has to be eliminated.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I dont know how this thread has 6 pages.

i made this thread for the mixed reviews and i enjoy them.

 

[Isprayaxe]

How has this thread got 6 pages?

The answer is no, even casuals find tripping annoying. They like stuff like items because they cause entertaining havoc, and in a way it doesn't feel overtly gay to get destroyed by an item (note: sometimes it can but hey). Tripping is just irritating, items still take skill to get to and incorporate, unbalanced or not, but tripping just ****s you in the *** no matter what.

So the answer is: no. Also reduce the landing lag of aerials without bringing back L-Cancelling.

Why can't people just understand this^

 

[Deleted member]

Tripping was annoying. I had to rely on dodges in order to move around.

 

[Rood]

No.
No, because Sakurai is acknowledging the competitive community by making characters balanced, and hopefully getting rid tripping.
I don't mind it for casual but in competitive its stupid

 

[Wronskian-Physics]

No.
Yes, in one way or another.
Random tripping is dirt stupid, controlled tripping is ok

^the whole thread

 

[Dark Phazon]

No.
No, because Sakurai is acknowledging the competitive community by making characters balanced, and hopefully getting rid tripping.
I don't mind it for casual but in competitive its stupid

Well..if hes serious..then if anything i see tripping gone and chars more balanced but like no AT But L-Cancel and Teching if anything...defenetly no wavedashing...

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Will it return? Probobly.

Do I want it to return? HEAVEN FORBID NO!

 

[link2702]

People saying tripping can turn an entire match are just bad at Smash or haven't actually played Brawl.

damnit i wish i could find that old video of a japan tournament, finals match between a MK and an ice climber on SV, both at their last stocks iirc, MK trips close to the eskimos, gets chaingrabbed to hell and back, loses the tournament from a trip.

now who says tripping can't turn the tide of a match ?

in all honestly just let us have the option to turn it off then, so that way for any of those crazy casuals who *DO* for whatever reason want tripping on, they can have the option to turn it on.

 

[Ove]

damnit i wish i could find that old video of a japan tournament, finals match between a MK and an ice climber on SV, both at their last stocks iirc, MK trips close to the eskimos, gets chaingrabbed to hell and back, loses the tournament from a trip.

now who says tripping can't turn the tide of a match ?

in all honestly just let us have the option to turn it off then, so that way for any of those crazy casuals who *DO* for whatever reason want tripping on, they can have the option to turn it on.

Firstly, I have never said that tripping never can turn a match. Secondly, like I have stated earlier, it happends seldom that you can punish a trip. One of few things you can do, under right conditions (i.e. being close enough the person that trips) is to grab. The fact that Brawl has characters with chain grabs is the problem in this particular case. If it would have been versus a character that hasn't chain grabs, this wouldn't have been such a big deal.

You might as well go to the chain grab thread and complain there instead of blaming tripping.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Can you imagine if theres a small gameplay footage at E3 2013 and someone/mario trips in it?

Wow..lmaoooo..that be sooo messed up...

 

[FalKoopa]

Can you imagine if theres a small gameplay footage at E3 2013 and someone/mario trips in it?

I shudder to think of the backlash Sakurai would face.

 

[Orngeblu]

>Goes for a running jump

>Trips and gets hit in the face with a strong attack

@_@...do I need to explain how annoying this is?