Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[TimeSmash]

The fastfall thing MUST be an oversight, it's just way too weird haha.

Maybe it's possible to take advantage of the fact the camera follows Din's, and we can **** with people that way somehow haha

 

[flying_tortoise]

The single din is a lot faster now.
A good strategy with it is to get the din behind the opponent for comboing into, or to hit the opponent from behind on its way back allowing for the disruption of the opponents strings.
The din does not come straight back to you, and avoids going through platforms yet will go through the stage. Just set it up at head level so that it wont go through the stage and can pressure the opponent on its way back to you. I see no purpose of the multi exploding on the way back b/c its hard to time for now and doesn't really add that much dmg or knockback, but someone will probably do something good with it

What the din does when it is behind your opponent. will have a din behind him which is going to make him want to get the hell away from it asap leaving him to run to you, so you gotta be ready for combat.

People can just put the din in front of them?
eh not really b/c the din is kind of hard to control in the beginning, you can't lift it vertically giving ppl the ability to jump over it, and the shield can take it out. Yes you can land it on the opponents sometimes but then as your waiting for the din to comeback the opponent will charge right at you.

We'll certainly have to do this again in a few months after people get used to the move, but here's something to start with I suppose.

I completely agree with this. And you got A LOT of info in here. Forgot to post earlier so sry if i repeat a little

 

[TimeSmash]

I agree with a re-evaluate as well. I have had that planned since the guide started, but more for when we finished talking about everything haha. Hopefully (?) 3.5 stays around long enough for us to actually get some progress haha

 

[4tlas]

I've been updating my long list with more things I've found. Debug mode is cool guys

 

[Magus420]

Transform should be causing it to go into the full explosion. Is it not for you? You have it listed under cons that it does not.

 

[4tlas]

Transform should be causing it to go into the full explosion. Is it not for you? You have it listed under cons that it does not.

It does not explode for me, it just fizzles. It's supposed to? Well that makes me feel better at least, as I main Sheilda and I was very sad transforming mid-fight was much more difficult lol

Edit: I'll go try it again tomorrow, with debug mode active. That way I can see if there is an explosion hitbox despite there being no animation.

Edit2: Aren't you the developer who works on Zelda? I don't want to be a pain. I know you have put a lot of work into everything, and I know it can be difficult to be criticized heavily for a labor of love. I would like to talk about the design decisions that went into the Zelda changes, not to convince you of anything, but so I can understand better. I really want to be convinced that the changes are good for her design-wise, as it would make me enjoy playing her more. Would you mind? (If you aren't the Zelda developer could you pass this on to whoever that is? Sorry)

 

[jtm94]

Dins explodes for me when I transform.
You can still backthrow into explode dins the giant one is crazy strong.

 

[BBNik]

I suppose I should just say this. You can choose which way Din's fire returns *via an upward curve or a downward curve*. Just imagine an invisible line that is in line with Zelda. If Din's fire lies on the line or below, it will return from below. If Din's fire lies above the line, it will return from above. Even if you make the fire go up and down, the final placement doesn't determine which way it returns from. It's dependent on zelda's position relative to the din's fire. So essentially you can maneuver about and play with this to mix up the direction it will return by jumping above or below the Din's Fire.

And assuming that everyone knows that Din's fire 'return' only hits once. You can actually make it explode, by pressing side B again to make it explode, and hit them again (but only with the explosion).

 

[4tlas]

I suppose I should just say this. You can choose which way Din's fire returns *via an upward curve or a downward curve*. Just imagine an invisible line that is in line with Zelda. If Din's fire lies on the line or below, it will return from below. If Din's fire lies above the line, it will return from above. Even if you make the fire go up and down, the final placement doesn't determine which way it returns from. It's dependent on zelda's position relative to the din's fire. So essentially you can maneuver about and play with this to mix up the direction it will return by jumping above or below the Din's Fire.

And assuming that everyone knows that Din's fire 'return' only hits once. You can actually make it explode, by pressing side B again to make it explode, and hit them again (but only with the explosion).

I believe your first part is incorrect, and the second part is misleading.

The upward curve or downward curve is dependent upon the direction Dins is heading as it is placed (as far as I can tell, and I've been testing this a lot. I at least know your description is wrong, though mine could be wrong too lol). So if you send it way above you but press down at the last moment, it will return downwards (seems to not need the din to actually start travelling down).

The return does only hit once, but every time Din hits you cannot manually explode it for a brief time, so you actually can't let it hit then explode it on someone (unless they somehow manage to fly in the direction of the dins for ~1 second), but you CAN explode it then immediately allow it to hit someone.

 

[Kaeldiar]

The upward curve or downward curve is dependent upon the direction Dins is heading as it is placed

The return does only hit once, but every time Din hits you cannot manually explode it for a brief time, so you actually can't let it hit then explode it on someone (unless they somehow manage to fly in the direction of the dins for ~1 second), but you CAN explode it then immediately allow it to hit someone.

Movement of Din's

Spoiler

Here's what I've discovered so far. The direction that Din's is moving at when it stops is the same direction that it will initially move when it returns. As far as which way it BENDS, it will bend towards Zelda so that it reaches her in the shortest amount of time (or at least it will try to do so). Caveat: If you throw out a Din's horizontally, and stay on the ground, it will bend down.

ADDITIONALLY, you can see which direction your Din's will begin travel while it is flashing. See the red line on Din's here? It's going out at about a 40 degree angle. This line appears for a brief amount of time, every time it flashes. This line is a "comet trail" that indicates the direction of travel. In this case, Din's will move down and to the left, 180 degrees opposite that line. After that, it will then bend according to Zelda's position, but this gives you a starting point.

Hitboxes on return

Spoiler

If the return hitbox collides with an enemy, it cannot hit that enemy again until it is detonated. "Collide" means if they clank, shield, or get hit by it! So even if they clank your Din's, you can "refresh" the hitbox with a manual detonation. The detonation itself will hit them, and the return hitbox will also be able to hit them again! I don't know how this works with teams. I haven't tested it yet.

 

[4tlas]

Transform should be causing it to go into the full explosion. Is it not for you? You have it listed under cons that it does not.

Ok it does detonate! Don't know why it looked like it didn't before. Kinda useless though, as I can't cover a transform with it (only 1 din), and I can already explode it at will using sideB. But at least its something! I'll edit my post.

 

[S2rulL]

Very confused about new dins, how do I... How do I put this... Use it? Like, whenever I place it out and recall it it always tends to go under and up through the stage??? Not too sure tbh halp pls?

 

[4tlas]

Very confused about new dins, how do I... How do I put this... Use it? Like, whenever I place it out and recall it it always tends to go under and up through the stage??? Not too sure tbh halp pls?

The direction it is heading at the moment of placement determines which way it will head when returning. After the initial movement, it will simply head straight for you.

If it is heading horizontally or downward, it will loop downward (and a little outward) before returning to you. If it is heading upward, it will continue upward (and a little outward) before heading to you.

 

[BBNik]

I believe your first part is incorrect, and the second part is misleading.

The upward curve or downward curve is dependent upon the direction Dins is heading as it is placed (as far as I can tell, and I've been testing this a lot. I at least know your description is wrong, though mine could be wrong too lol). So if you send it way above you but press down at the last moment, it will return downwards (seems to not need the din to actually start travelling down).

The return does only hit once, but every time Din hits you cannot manually explode it for a brief time, so you actually can't let it hit then explode it on someone (unless they somehow manage to fly in the direction of the dins for ~1 second), but you CAN explode it then immediately allow it to hit someone.

Yeah sorry you are correct. I must have imagined what I thought about the first part. But I am pretty sure about the second one. You'll notice that the activated explosions will hit even if Din's hit first. This is in line with what Kaeldiar said. But yes there is a short delay between each explosion where you can't detonate it again. But you can hit them multiple time if you circle the fire around if you're good enough to make it explode repeatedly when it makes a rotation.

 

[4tlas]

Yeah sorry you are correct. I must have imagined what I thought about the first part. But I am pretty sure about the second one. You'll notice that the activated explosions will hit even if Din's hit first. This is in line with what Kaeldiar said. But yes there is a short delay between each explosion where you can't detonate it again. But you can hit them multiple time if you circle the fire around if you're good enough to make it explode repeatedly when it makes a rotation.

Oh sure, I thought you meant immediate explosion following a hit. That's why I said it was misleading, as it could confuse people.

 

[4tlas]

Ok, this is important enough I'm going to add it as a new post as well as editing it into my pros/cons list.

Characters who can absorb the dins can absorb it twice (and probably 3, 4, 5...etc) under some circumstances, but the Din does not actually disappear no matter when they do it.

It seems that as long as the absorption move or the dins is refreshed between the connections, this happens. It was very difficult to reproduce, so I will leave it vague for now, but it does happen.

 

[TimeSmash]

Ok, this is important enough I'm going to add it as a new post as well as editing it into my pros/cons list.

Characters who can absorb the dins can absorb it twice (and probably 3, 4, 5...etc) under some circumstances, but the Din does not actually disappear no matter when they do it.

It seems that as long as the absorption move or the dins is refreshed between the connections, this happens. It was very difficult to reproduce, so I will leave it vague for now, but it does happen.

You mean characters ala Lucas, Ness, and GW, right? I noticed something like this last night as well

 

[4tlas]

You mean characters ala Lucas, Ness, and GW, right? I noticed something like this last night as well

Conveniently (but frustratingly) my training buddies play Ness and GW respectively. Back when I didn't train with them I could destroy them with Dins because they were afraid, but now...well lets just say that PSI Magnet heals more damage than Dins do, and bucket does more damage and knockback than din->LK would ever do. And now they can do it twice! /cry

 

[Kaeldiar]

Conveniently (but frustratingly) my training buddies play Ness and GW respectively. Back when I didn't train with them I could destroy them with Dins because they were afraid, but now...well lets just say that PSI Magnet heals more damage than Dins do, and bucket does more damage and knockback than din->LK would ever do. And now they can do it twice! /cry

I had a match against a G&W player the same tourney that I played Junebug, and it was caught on stream, so I'm going to check that footage and see what I come up with. I CAN agree that using Din's against Ness is much harder

EDIT: Din's offstage against G&W. They didn't work as well onstage, but they worked VERY well when I threw them offstage. Combo'ing off them, limiting his recovery, etc. He didn't use bucket much, but he often shielded when he could have bucketed. He didn't really get the chance to do this offstage, though.

A MORE GENERAL NOTE
I don't know why I never thought of this before, in 3.02, but throw a Din's behind you, so that they would get hit by it if they DI d-throw properly. This is much easier to do in 3.5, due to the increased speed. When that Din's is sitting there, they are more likely to DI d-throw incorrectly, so you get your follow-ups. In my opinion, Zelda gets her best hit confirms off of poorly DI'd d-throw, so I'm going to have to try this out

 

[4tlas]

I had a match against a G&W player the same tourney that I played Junebug, and it was caught on stream, so I'm going to check that footage and see what I come up with. I CAN agree that using Din's against Ness is much harder

EDIT: Din's offstage against G&W. They didn't work as well onstage, but they worked VERY well when I threw them offstage. Combo'ing off them, limiting his recovery, etc. He didn't use bucket much, but he often shielded when he could have bucketed. He didn't really get the chance to do this offstage, though.
A MORE GENERAL NOTE
I don't know why I never thought of this before, in 3.02, but throw a Din's behind you, so that they would get hit by it if they DI d-throw properly. This is much easier to do in 3.5, due to the increased speed. When that Din's is sitting there, they are more likely to DI d-throw incorrectly, so you get your follow-ups. In my opinion, Zelda gets her best hit confirms off of poorly DI'd d-throw, so I'm going to have to try this out

ffs, Smashboards hasn't been giving me notifications lately.

So I had trouble placing them offstage, as if I place them high he upBs through them, and if I place them low he upBs around them. Also the bucket brake just allows him to eat the Din AND get rid of it, all while not losing any recovery. I cant even hit him with the explosion before he buckets, as the start of the bucket gives invuln.

I liked doing the Dthrow thing with Dins before, but it is still just a mixup. Zelda is too slow to waste any time reacting to which way they DI, so I still have to hard read whether they are scared of the Dins or not. Dthrow has guaranteed followup if you are always willing to live with a suboptimal option (dash attack, which turns into a nair or something if they DI'd incorrectly but you weren't ready), and a great followup (bair) if they DI poorly AND you predict it, but no followup if they DI well and you go for bair. So the only time I found this of use was when setting up 2 mines (one in the Dthrow DI spot and the other nearby as a "followup"), at which point I would be able to bair the bad DI and still have time to move and bair the good DI due to them hitting 2 Dins of hitstun. Can't do that anymore with only one Din

 

[4tlas]

I edited my giant list again. One of my biggest complaints about new Dins (so I dont know how I left it out this long derp) has been added to cons: shield clanks it.

Also added a base description of Dins in case the reader never saw pre-3.5 dins and is wondering what my pros and cons are in relation to. And a disclaimer notifying them of such a problem.

New topic?

 

[ECHOnce]

If we are moving on, I'd like to confirm the KB+range differences between the old Din explosion and the new 3sec/transform Din explosion, if any. Feels weaker and shorter, but maybe I'm just being scrubby lol.

Also, how much stronger the KB/%s are from returning Din touches and returning Din explosions, from smallest to largest Dins. How much is benefitted from the time (the riskiness) of laying larger Dins (presumably for more KB/%s for different combos or setups, or to just mix it up and not let the opponent get used to Din set sizes)?

Also, when we do move on to the next discussion, I vote that we discuss what the 3.5 Nayru's can be used effectively for; since Tele-short canceling is the only thing confirmed as prone to change in the near future, it should be lower priority imo. Nayrus was hugely important and frequently used in 3.02, and given its many nerfs to range, lack of aerial invincibility, removal of out-of-hitstun mechanics, etc., we should discuss how effective 3.02 strats with Nayrus are now, and potential "replacements" for uses that are no longer as effective

 

[LonVoen]

How much is benefitted from the time (the riskiness) of laying larger Dins (presumably for more KB/%s for different combos or setups, or to just mix it up and not let the opponent get used to Din set sizes)?

Risking a larger dins seems like a poor choice. I think it should be, at worst, a trade-off for positioning. If there is a chance they can hit you while you're charging a dins you should just set it down at its current state. The immediacy and duration of your din's defensive value scales inversely with time spent placing due to the charging time loss, further distance, and speed loss that occurs when placing larger din. The opposites then hold true, the larger dins lose out on helping you immediately but will stick around. Thanks to the prolonged duration, size of affected area at a given moment, and increased damage/KB, I would say generally speaking the efficacy of the dins scale with time placing. However, against faster matchups I think the difficulty of controlling a max din while spacing properly is much more difficult and in these cases the large, thin spaces controlled by the speediness of smaller dins can be more useful in neutral. This makes sense in theory, although I can hardly say I have anything remotely resembling an understanding of what dins vs who. Not tested so who knows.

(Also not tested) On fast-fallers a small din can knock them off the ground just enough that they get landing lag before exiting hitstun, potentially giving you a slightly larger time window with which to capitalize.

In juggling situations I find large dins to be more effective if it is going beneath the opponent. Good KO potential with side-B burst and can force a recovery option out of the opponent. Mixing up the timing with bursts can also force movement and limit their options in recovery, giving you an easier or more damaging punish. Remember to watch the opponent with smaller dins while they're being juggled too. There have been a few instances in which I noticed the small halos from a double jump underneath my opponent right before they get tapped by a small dins. Easy, fat juggles ensue.

In edgeguarding and respawn situations it's a judgment call. Din size decision making in edgeguarding situations depends on the timing of when you start to place, where the opponent is, what recovery options they have remaining, and how quickly they can move in the air. Unless you're right there to capitalize, I like using smaller dins to interrupt their patterns and then going out and intercepting them with aerials. I use Fair/bair/dair for kills and nair is great for area denial. Something like din -> drop off -> jump back to the edge while nairing is fantastic for stuffing recovery options with poor offensive hitboxes like firefox.

Uh. I think that's it for now???
New dins is

(hint: it's ballin'. New dins is ballin'.)

 

[TimeSmash]

Also, when we do move on to the next discussion, I vote that we discuss what the 3.5 Nayru's can be used effectively for; since Tele-short canceling is the only thing confirmed as prone to change in the near future,

We probably will move topics soon, and I can't remember if I said this on here or not but the oversight thing of pressing B immediately after placing Din's would make you recall it is being averted in some way

 

[Oracle]

@ ECHOnce where was that change confirmed, and whats getting changed?

 

[Kaeldiar]

@ ECHOnce where was that change confirmed, and whats getting changed?

Magus confirmed it. Telecancel endlag is being decreased 2 frames. It was supposed to have the same endlag as Teledash, but he missed a couple frames, so it's 2 frames slower than Teledash was. He said he would fix it in the next update

 

[Oracle]

oh sick. I was wondering why i couldn't do up b to uptilt anymore and i guess that could be why

side note: my zelda is the most powerful

 

[LonVoen]

oh sick. I was wondering why i couldn't do up b to uptilt anymore and i guess that could be why

side note: my zelda is the most powerful

upB->utilt seems risky. why that over upB->(running?)upsmash or upB->regrab?
(note: "style" is always an acceptable answer)

shhh. all zeldas are equally powerful in their own unique and special way :]


except for mine ofc. which is, like, way more powerful than the rest combined

 

[Oracle]

up tilt kills, those other things don't really

 

[LonVoen]

hmm, never really used upB to utilt before. do you mean with upb actually hitting? i don't think that would combo that well @ kill percent but it may on spacies or something.

bthrow kills pretty well!

 

[ECHOnce]

side note: my zelda is the most powerful

You should play her on the next stream your on! At least in friendlies or if you're sandbagging scrubs lol. I'd like to see it

 

[Oracle]

Ill try to get some footage on stream. May just go all zelda for fun tomorrow. Also trying to work on my stream but computer cant handle dolphin and obs at the same time

 

[TimeSmash]

I think @ E.C.H.O. nailed it when he said we should talk about Love next. NAYRU'S LOVE that is. Commence discussion!!

 

[Arcalyth]

You can still B-reverse it. Has anyone figured out how the new physics work? If not maybe I'll go hook up my setup and play around with it

 

[4tlas]

So far it seems that the very last hit will hit away from Zelda, whereas the early hits still all hit in the direction she's facing.

However I would also believe the outermost hitbox behind her always hits away, and if any of the other hitboxes hit at all they get sent toward the direction she's facing.

In other words, I don't ****ing know anything anymore. @ Magus420 , some help here please?

 

[4tlas]

I love how my post essentially contributes nothing useful at all, and really boils down to: "PMDT Pls halp", and it gets more likes than posting, like, frama data would. <3

 

[Magus420]

The multihits just pull in towards the middle. Same as always.

For the final hit it depends if they touch the rearmost collision or not:

Top shows how normal reversibility on a move would work. Normal hitboxes would just go by whether Puff's white dot (TopN bone) is on the left or right side of Zelda's TopN, with the trajectory mirrored on the other side of Zelda. Since they're bouncing around towards the center during the multihits if it were this way you'd have no good way of telling which direction they'll end up going.

Middle shows how it worked previously. All hitboxes always sent the direction Zelda is facing, even if hit by the very tip of the rearmost hitbox it'd pull them back over Zelda's head (looked kinda weird if that happened).

Bottom shows how it works currently. Simple way to think of it is if any part of that small rear hitbox touches them they will go behind Zelda, but if not then they go in the direction she's facing (technically gigantic characters could be touching that collision but TopN be in front of Zelda, in which case they would go in the direction she's facing as normal). This allows more consistent direction sent than normal reversibility, as they can be a bit behind but still go in the direction she's facing, but without the overhead pulls from way behind her. Fat characters will have an easier time DIing towards the back to get hit by that rear collision to get sent behind. Also, DIing towards the back to try to get reversed means DIing into combos if they don't make it all the way, so there's that which is neat I think.

 

[LonVoen]

 

[4tlas]

Thanks so much for the pictures and explanation Magus! That helps a lot. I assume this is the same for the ground version.

So most of the stuff about Nayru's is the same, but the big changes are a) loss of aerial invuln and b) the reverse hitbox. This changes the following uses:

1) Using Nayru's as a panic button. This can't really be done anymore, as once you are in the air you will no longer get invuln from this move. You might be better off using some other move to interrupt combos now (nair/fair?)

2) Using Nayru's as an offensive option. The loss of invuln means you can't do this indiscriminately. Approach and see if they choose to play offensively or defensively. If offensively, you can lightning kick them. If defensively, you can go for jumping right on them and using Nayru's -> land-cancel -> anything for good pressure. You can't cross-up the opponents shield by too much anymore, as the outer hitbox on both sides sends opponents too far to do much with afterwards.

That's about it, right?

 

[TimeSmash]

Thanks so much for the pictures and explanation Magus! That helps a lot. I assume this is the same for the ground version.

So most of the stuff about Nayru's is the same, but the big changes are a) loss of aerial invuln and b) the reverse hitbox. This changes the following uses:

1) Using Nayru's as a panic button. This can't really be done anymore, as once you are in the air you will no longer get invuln from this move. You might be better off using some other move to interrupt combos now (nair/fair?)

2) Using Nayru's as an offensive option. The loss of invuln means you can't do this indiscriminately. Approach and see if they choose to play offensively or defensively. If offensively, you can lightning kick them. If defensively, you can go for jumping right on them and using Nayru's -> land-cancel -> anything for good pressure. You can't cross-up the opponents shield by too much anymore, as the outer hitbox on both sides sends opponents too far to do much with afterwards.

That's about it, right?

I would disagree with Nayru's not being a panic button move anymore. While it is very true that the loss of invincibility means you can't throw it out as freely as in 3.02 (which I agree with, actually on a side note) I think Nayru's can still be used as a panic button/ get off me move. You just can't do it every time you get hit (not that you could in 3.02 either, but the invincibility helped to mitigate this) but it definitely can still be used to get some space because it's still pretty fast. So it's more like a "should I or shouldn't I" option. I definitely agree with you though that using something like Nair, which has some similarities to Nayru's would be an interesting option to explore. It's not going to be as effective as say, Peach's Nair out of hitstun, but still.

I would have to agree that Nayru's as an offensive option has decreased a lot. I didn't do it too much in the past, as it stands in this version if you whiff and the person shields, you're kind of screwed haha. It may be interesting to experiment with empty short hops and Nayru's as a HEYLISTEN mix up could throw people off.

I'm still having a little trouble understanding the hitbox stuff, even though Magus' speech was pretty eloquent. What I'm not getting is as follows:

1. The top is just more of a reference as to how a B-reversed move would normally work in terms f trajectory, right?
2. The bottom/current picture is saying that the hitbox behind Zelda will send them behind, where as hitting the other hitboxes would send the they way she is facing? Is the rear hitbox in the picture the smallest one behind Zelda, and will the second smallest hitbox send them the direction Zelda is facing, or would it send them backwards as well?
3. If someone could answer this example, that would be great

Jiggly approaches Zelda, who uses Nayru's Love, Jiggly is to the right of Zelda, jumps and does not hit the rear hitbox. Zelda is facing right when using Nayru's, so Jiggly should be sent to the right. However, if Jiggly hopped over Zelda (planning for a Rest or something), but accidentally clipped the rear hitbox, she would be sent flying to the left then?

This example is pretty much what the second question is asking, but it helps to add directions haha. Thanks!