Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[DarkStarStorm]

I definitely see D-air as a useful but mostly situational move. Unless you manage to set up a dins in their recovery path followed by a dair stomp it cant really be used as an edgeguard staple. Maybe the up-throw dair combo can be a decent switchup, havent tried it much myself though. Most of my success with it is a surprise counterspike after love jumping or jumping an edgeguard attempt of some characters. Dair spikes are more of an opportunity that presents itself sometimes rather than something I actively go for. Plus if you manage to get a spikr once in a match theyll be a lot more careful about trying that eg again.

Id also mention it gets a KO every now and again at the odd times when you end up right above them at a high percent and stage bounce them for a kill. Definitely useful, but not quite as frequently as LKs or nair.

Also you can use it after Trans-Jumping with Sheik, if they try to punish your transform and fail: you can use Dair OoT (Out-of-Transform) to punish them.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Dair is reliable against some opponents like Snake, tetherers, or anyone not prepared. However most of Zeldoo's attacks send people at an upward angle, making an offstage Uair or Lkick way more effective and surprising. Dair can only be used when the opponent is coming towards the stage from the side or below, and only ONE of Zeldoo's attacks send people that way without fail, along with a badly DI'd Nyaru's Love. At least Dsmash is good, so it's not like the limited options are awful.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Whoops, one thing I forgot to mention. Don't devalue the sour spot meteor hit box against high percent opponents. It can scoop them up just high enough for all of Zelda's aerials and is a lot easier to land than the critical sweet spot.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Zelda's Down Air

My first thoughts on this move:
-There are usually better options when using this move
-Slow startup and terrible lag if you don't L-cancel it
-Small hitbox compared to other aerials
-More of a defensive move than an offensive move when Farore's isn't an option

After playing with Zelda for a while
-Better to use this move in combos rather than raw
-Still a somewhat usable option in covering your *** when recovering downwards
-When you foe is in shield it makes for an excellent cross up
-Can score stupid kills on platforms if you're opponent wasn't ready (i.e. Wario Ware)

Overall, I don't consider this my "go to" move as if I find few situations where it's the best option. In combos I prefer fair/bair as that sends them away so I can set up Din's without much opposition. Missing the L-Cancel on dair just sucks, it just says "I messed up a button press, please hit me".

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zelda's Down Air

My first thoughts on this move:
-There are usually better options when using this move
-Slow startup and terrible lag if you don't L-cancel it
-Small hitbox compared to other aerials
-More of a defensive move than an offensive move when Farore's isn't an option

After playing with Zelda for a while
-Better to use this move in combos rather than raw
-Still a somewhat usable option in covering your *** when recovering downwards
-When you foe is in shield it makes for an excellent cross up
-Can score stupid kills on platforms if you're opponent wasn't ready (i.e. Wario Ware)

Overall, I don't consider this my "go to" move as if I find few situations where it's the best option. In combos I prefer fair/bair as that sends them away so I can set up Din's without much opposition. Missing the L-Cancel on dair just sucks, it just says "I messed up a button press, please hit me".

Both the sweetspot and the sourspot are useful in Zelda's platform pillar. On heavyweights and spacies it will wrack up 80 to 100% with b-throw or a kick being the finisher.

 

[Kitanamonk]

I totally forgot a great gimp option, if your opponent messes up the D-throw DI (does anyone else find that many players DI this throw badly?), it can lead straight into D-air, on the ledge its an easy low% kill

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I totally forgot a great gimp option, if your opponent messes up the D-throw DI (does anyone else find that many players DI this throw badly?), it can lead straight into D-air, on the ledge its an easy low% kill

Really? I know that this discussion is about Dair, but in one post can you tell me some of the uses for D-throw?

 

[Kitanamonk]

Really? I know that this discussion is about Dair, but in one post can you tell me some of the uses for D-throw?

D-Throw Comes in two forms, Bad DI and good DI

Bad DI:
If they DI towards you and up (This usually happens when they are predicting combo DI in the other direction and either don't react or they don't know how to DI the throw), the throw can lead into several things:

Chaingrab - This is a fantastic option as its a 15 dmg throw, so even with only 2 re-grabs your doing 45 dmg, Another great benefit is that it throws inwards, meaning that it isn't as susceptible to platforms. It will still put opponents on platforms at medium percent, forcing a tech option instead of a re-grab.

the chain is also hard to DI as it requires alternate DI each time. For example, if I grab a player and he DI's towards me one the first throw, when I grab him the second time his first instinct is to change his DI thinking that his first DI was incorrect, the result is that he will DI the second throw incorrectly as well. This chain will work on anyone at 0% except Jigglypuff, Fox, Falco, and Wolf. The spacies can be D-throw chain-grabbed but only at Higher percent's. I advise caution with seome characters though, Zelda, Samus, Luigi, Ness, Kirby and probably others can throw out a N-air in between throws so don't rely on this against those characters. This works best against Big characters like Bowser and DK.

LK - If you have tacked on enough percent in your chain that you can kill them there's no reason not to go for a Kick. If they are a character like Samus you should go for the LK early as she will only have the right knockback/hitstun at lower percents, and if you want to get them off stage then LK is also strong option. Also if you aren't sure if the player is bad enough at DI for you do do many re-grabs, a LK does more damage than one D-throw and will get you in a better stage position than a normal D-throw. Got to mention though, PRACTICE THE D-THROW INTO LK. There are so many awkward angles in this throw that can be very hard to LK. Given practice, a sweetspot LK is the easiest from D-throw. (don't forget to turn around and use the Fair instead of the D-air for the better knockback)

DI mixup - During the chain you can try to read when they will correctly react to your throw and use a F-throw instead, leading to an easy LK

D-air - Finally relevant to the discussion (sorry). A shffl D-air is so easy to sweet spot after D-throw, sadly it can't lead to much as she can't fall fast enough for a punish of a failed tech, but you can read a roll (not a teched roll). the grab facing the stage, while standing near the ledge is where it shines though. Many weaker players will instinctively use survival DI and you can punish that with a D-air to easily kill. I get a lot of kills in doubles like this actually, the chaos of doubles can get in the head of a player and they mess up the DI.

Other options include Dash attack, F-tilt, Up-tilt, Up-smash and Nair

Good DI:
Sadly there is less to say about this, DI'ing away and down means they will hit the ground instead of stay in the air. Follow ups are limited to tech chasing. you can chase the tech away with a teledash, or bait a tech towards with the teleport and shorten it with teledashing early. you can follow the tech away by simply running and grabbing but some characters can spot dodge before you can grab them. A tech in place can also be followed up with teledashed grab. A failed tech can be dash-attacked, and a get-up attack can be baited similar to a roll towards.

Thats D-throw in a mouthfull of nutshells. Should I do a mega guide on Zelda? I feel like I have a lot of character knowledge, is my presentation helpful?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Should I do a mega guide on Zelda?

Let's keep this community driven. Everyone has new insight on the same moves, so let's give everyone a chance to speak and them compile that information like this thread is already doing.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Let's keep this community driven. Everyone has new insight on the same moves, so let's give everyone a chance to speak and them compile that information like this thread is already doing.

Sure thing

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Sure thing

However we should remember this for when we talk about D-throw.

@ TimeSmash

 

[flying_tortoise]

Both the sweetspot and the sourspot are useful in Zelda's platform pillar. On heavyweights and spacies it will wrack up 80 to 100% with b-throw or a kick being the finisher.

Don't really understand what you are using to pillar.

Anyways very little info to add on the Dair.
With Light characters
If Kirby is at ledge level and you do a sour spot dair, this is enough to kill him... even at low percent (mb 40% or even less)
With metaknight (Offstage), you can sour hit a fair -> jump immediately and Sweetspot the dair for the kill (The opponent jumped after the sour fair both times but pretty sure it should would work even if they didn't jump.

Heavy character's?
So I've only done this against links, because I am so bad at L-canceling a sour dair and so have not been able to try against other characters.
But sour dair can get you a link right over your head for anything you so please (Pretty sure this was already mentioned).

 

[TimeSmash]

I'd also like to know more about Zelda's platform pillar.

I did NOT expect so much feedback on Dair. Thanks everyone!!

 

[flying_tortoise]

For me there are 4 main Oooo's and Aaaa's of watching a zelda.
1) critical LK stopping the opponents animation
2 comboing into a din explosion
3) Juggling with teledashing
and 4) actually comboing with, or into, a dair

 

[TimeSmash]

and 4) actually using dair

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Don't really understand what you are using to pillar:

Without platforms
Up-smash works in conjunction with a sour-spot Dair to get another Up-smash (or get another Dair into Fair/Bair).

With platforms (PS2, Battlefield, WarioWare, Yoshi's Story)
On a lot of the cast Zelda can chain Up-smash, Sparkle (on platform)*, Up-smash, Sweet-spotted Dair, Up-smash, Dair, B-throw/any kick as a finisher.

*Not necessary.

It doesn't work on lightweights.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Without platforms
Up-smash works in conjunction with a sour-spot Dair to get another Up-smash (or get another Dair into Fair/Bair).

With platforms (PS2, Battlefield, WarioWare, Yoshi's Story)
On a lot of the cast Zelda can chain Up-smash, Sparkle (on platform)*, Up-smash, Sweet-spotted Dair, Up-smash, Dair, B-throw/any kick as a finisher.

Care to post some footage of this in tournament?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Care to post some footage of this in tournament?

I can try! Once I get my PC GCN controller ports then I will post a video of her pillar promptly.

As a lot of you probably know: my channel (DarkStarStorm, not PalPlays) has been on hiatus lately. I intend to rectify that once I get a visual input mod for Brawl and PM on PC.

 

[TimeSmash]

Let's change topics to Shielda commence discussion!!!

 

[WhiteCrow]

Once I get my PC GCN controller ports then I will post a video of her pillar promptly.

I wasn't so much asking so that I could see what it looks like (I can do that in training mode) as I was asking to see it used against opponents who are actually DIing and teching the dair meteor. Dair has a lot of hit lag and I've noticed people easily teching it and getting out of range of continuing the "pillar." It is really solid for carrying people up platforms with up air juggles (dair>up smash>up air land cancel>nair or up air) but I'm skeptical of it being as hard of a punish as it seems, since Zelda doesn't really fall fast enough to tech chase people after sweet spot dair, even on platforms. If I ever end a juggle with a dair sweet spot I'm almost always resetting the situation back to neutral, and it doesn't do enough damage for me to want to always choose it over nair or up air.

My thoughts on Shielda... I'm not a Shielda main, I'm a Zelda main. I down b when I want a faster detonation and that's pretty much it. I find the detonation loses a lot of usefulness if you can be punished on whiff or if you're fighting people who know to expect it. I'm sure there are other Zelda's who can give more advanced advice on how to utilize transforming, like the down b variant of love jump or the buffered bair out of down b. There's not a lot of intensive for me to change between Zelda and Sheik mid match because Sheik just isn't as interesting to me.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Shielda is a very niche tactic, as sheik is widely considered worse than Zelda atm. I do sometimes pull out shiek in order to bait my opponent, no one realises how little lag out of transform there is, and if I can get a surprise F-tilt/D-tilt into fair as shiek it is a better option than going hard for a LK. Zelda does find it difficult to secure a kill at higher percents (too high to combo into an LK, too high to finish with a B-throw), so I can see sheik having some utility. I have also seen it mentioned that some players use Shiek for survivability, as she is a faster faller (identical weight though). IMO that is just a delaying tactic and is ignoring the problem instead of surviving by using your jump and teleport options better, but It's a possibility.

I don't want this to be a dead topic since there are so few Shieldas, so I have some ideas for discussion that might even change up how us purely Zelda mains play.

What do you guys think of the different recoveries? shiek may be good to utilise the invincibility for a safe return.
Changing just to use needles/edgegaurding? Verses Marth/Roy or other characters with limited recoveries, is it viable to switch for an easier gimp? Shiek's edge-guarding is one of the best
Ways for Zelda to get the opponent in a good position for a sheik follow up? Or visa versa? Shiek's up-air may work better for juggles than Zelda's for example

Sadly I can only comment from the perspective of a Zelda main but I would be very interested in seeing the opinion of a Shielda main.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Note: When playing Sheilda on a powerful PC (mine), the transformation time seems to be cut in half.

 

[ECHOnce]

TL;DR:​

There's not much depth for reasons when/why to use Shielda; it's pretty intuitive. For those that know what they're doing, you can just skim this WoT for the itzy bitz of things to remember to keep in mind; I only wrote in so much detail for the sake of those that don't happen to realize certain game mechanics / mindgames.

- - -
​

I feel that it's important to clarify that when talking about using Shielda, it would be best to consider it separate from Transform. Transform is a move, and as with all moves, is merely a tool used to interact with opponents. Sheik's Transform is a tool to recover better. Zelda's Transform is a tool to trigger dinsplosions, and sometimes recover better via it's love-jump-like physics. But at the end of the day, that's all there is to Transform. It's a move, with a few janky effects. Shielda is just another one of that move's effects; Shielda is not a character, or a two characters grouped up, or whatever. Sheik's and Zelda's Transform are tools to swap one MU out for another one, mid-match, via the effect "Shielda".

In Smash, the only three variables that change throughout matches are each character's %s and positioning. Movesets, weights, and other character properties are constants, which both affect and are affected by those variables. MUs are ratings of how advantageous, neutral, and disadvantageous situations are for 2 groupings of constants ("characters") when interacting at varying %s and positioning.

Therefore, since situations in MUs are influenced by the characters' %s and positioning, Shielda should be used when swapping would make at least one of those play more to our advantage. Positioning varies at a much faster pace than the other two variables, and given the time it takes to Transform, it isn't usually the factor that influences whether or not you should use Shielda. So instead, let's consider each player's %s.

Everybody has, at some point, probably heard the following:

When the opponent's % is low, your aim is to combo or kill via gimps. Sheik is better at this.
When the opponent's % is high, your aim is to kill via high KB moves. Zelda is better at this.

That's certainly true, and is known for having a lot of influence in Sheik's and Zelda's MUs in Brawl. Such was the case because (1) most kills were via knocking opponents out of the blast zones rather than gimping (high KB kill-moves are almost necessary), and (2) both characters were nerfed hard from Melee > Brawl in the areas they weren't supposed to excel in - Sheik had no high KB moves, Zelda had no moves good for comboing - and so they were pretty dependent on Shielda; they were dependent on each other's movesets.

In PM, that's no longer the case - both have been balanced to have movesets capable of comboing and killing effectively, and can therefore handle opponents regardless of if they have a low/mid/high %. Because of this, PM Sheik's/Zelda's biggest reason to use Shielda is the last remaining variable - their own %:

When your % is low, your opponent's aim is to combo or kill via gimps. Zelda is better at avoiding this, because of her defensive moveset, floaty falling speed, and good recovery (e.g. Dins for stuffing edgeguards and gimps, Love Jumps + Farore's Wind to cover huge distances).

When your % is high, your opponent's aim is to kill via high KB moves. Sheik is better at avoiding this, because of her average character weight and good anti-juggling options (e.g. Needles to induce hitstun and stuff approaches, Needle land-cancelling, quick fast-fall + several aerials with large lingering hitboxes that together can cover any direction).

And afaik, this is what most good "Shielda mains" use Shielda for in PM. It's what I've figured over time. It's what Zhime told me when I asked about it (lol on stream...I'm lame and can't quote it from anywhere). And I'm sure it's what many other experienced Shieldas will say. Other than that, there's really not much to it. The only other thing to add would simply be to emphasize which MUs Shielda can be used most/least effectively in, and maybe some other details I'm not remembering...like maybe...oh yeah:

Spoiler

When your opponent plays mainly Melee and/or seems more focused on learning tech skill than MUs, your aim is to overwhelm them with as much voodoo black magic - "PM jank" - as possible. Zelda is better at this.

When your opponent is scrubby and/or is scrubby, your aim is to overwhelm them with as much scary tech skill movement, gimps, and other means of exploiting game mechanics that you've spent an unhealthy portion of your life reading up and nerding out over. Your friends banned Sheik during your casual days for a reason.

aaanyhow...not going to go into detail with specific MUs, but a general rule of thumb to use is that Shielda boosts good/close MUs (which is most)...but if either Sheik or Zelda are counterpicked by the MU, Shielda is worth zip. This is because Sheik and Zelda have character weights than can easily be exploited at high/low %s, and since it often plays a large role in most MUs, Shielda can be used to simply remove that disadvantage from every MU...hence the boost for most of them. But in counterpicks, one of them usually suck in the MU for reasons other than those Shielda fix, and to the extent that they outweigh Shielda's benefits...so they're probably just better of sticking with whichever does better.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Shielda is​

not​

a character​

but but..but .. *keeps reading* ..its true but i still like the name T.T​

________________________________________________________________
btw I'm trying to get the combo
zelda dins below the stage close to the ledge horizontally but vertically it CAN be a ways down.
so zelda din, transform offstage, explosion pops up opponent, sheik bair.
^patent if it works lol. but of course situational for those characters with vertical recovery

 

[DarkStarStorm]

TL;DR:​

There's not much depth for reasons when/why to use Shielda; it's pretty intuitive. For those that know what they're doing, you can just skim this WoT for the itzy bitz of things to remember to keep in mind; I only wrote in so much detail for the sake of those that don't happen to realize certain game mechanics / mindgames.

- - -
​

I feel that it's important to clarify that when talking about using Shielda, it would be best to consider it separate from Transform. Transform is a move, and as with all moves, is merely a tool used to interact with opponents. Sheik's Transform is a tool to recover better. Zelda's Transform is a tool to trigger dinsplosions, and sometimes recover better via it's love-jump-like physics. But at the end of the day, that's all there is to Transform. It's a move, with a few janky effects. Shielda is just another one of that move's effects; Shielda is not a character, or a two characters grouped up, or whatever. Sheik's and Zelda's Transform are tools to swap one MU out for another one, mid-match, via the effect "Shielda".

In Smash, the only three variables that change throughout matches are each character's %s and positioning. Movesets, weights, and other character properties are constants, which both affect and are affected by those variables. MUs are ratings of how advantageous, neutral, and disadvantageous situations are for 2 groupings of constants ("characters") when interacting at varying %s and positioning.

Therefore, since situations in MUs are influenced by the characters' %s and positioning, Shielda should be used when swapping would make at least one of those play more to our advantage. Positioning varies at a much faster pace than the other two variables, and given the time it takes to Transform, it isn't usually the factor that influences whether or not you should use Shielda. So instead, let's consider each player's %s.

Everybody has, at some point, probably heard the following:


That's certainly true, and is known for having a lot of influence in Sheik's and Zelda's MUs in Brawl. Such was the case because (1) most kills were via knocking opponents out of the blast zones rather than gimping (high KB kill-moves are almost necessary), and (2) both characters were nerfed hard from Melee > Brawl in the areas they weren't supposed to excel in - Sheik had no high KB moves, Zelda had no moves good for comboing - and so they were pretty dependent on Shielda; they were dependent on each other's movesets.

In PM, that's no longer the case - both have been balanced to have movesets capable of comboing and killing effectively, and can therefore handle opponents regardless of if they have a low/mid/high %. Because of this, PM Sheik's/Zelda's biggest reason to use Shielda is the last remaining variable - their own %:


And afaik, this is what most good "Shielda mains" use Shielda for in PM. It's what I've figured over time. It's what Zhime told me when I asked about it (lol on stream...I'm lame and can't quote it from anywhere). And I'm sure it's what many other experienced Shieldas will say. Other than that, there's really not much to it. The only other thing to add would simply be to emphasize which MUs Shielda can be used most/least effectively in, and maybe some other details I'm not remembering...like maybe...oh yeah:

Spoiler

When your opponent plays mainly Melee and/or seems more focused on learning tech skill than MUs, your aim is to overwhelm them with as much voodoo black magic - "PM jank" - as possible. Zelda is better at this.

When your opponent is scrubby and/or is scrubby, your aim is to overwhelm them with as much scary tech skill movement, gimps, and other means of exploiting game mechanics that you've spent an unhealthy portion of your life reading up and nerding out over. Your friends banned Sheik during your casual days for a reason.

aaanyhow...not going to go into detail with specific MUs, but a general rule of thumb to use is that Shielda boosts good/close MUs (which is most)...but if either Sheik or Zelda are counterpicked by the MU, Shielda is worth zip. This is because Sheik and Zelda have character weights than can easily be exploited at high/low %s, and since it often plays a large role in most MUs, Shielda can be used to simply remove that disadvantage from every MU...hence the boost for most of them. But in counterpicks, one of them usually suck in the MU for reasons other than those Shielda fix, and to the extent that they outweigh Shielda's benefits...so they're probably just better of sticking with whichever does better.

While Sheilda may not take up a space of her own on the character select screen. There is more to Sheilda than simply gaining a MU. It is a playstyle as much as it is a "main." People like myself take advantage of the Transform mechanics to not gain favorable MUs, but instead we divide them. Think of it as math (sorry for the four letter word): it is akin to taking a cube and looking at the ratio of the surface area to the volume, think of Zelda and Sheik as each one of these. Then you take the cube and multiply its dimensions by three. The ratio is no longer the same, it is the same cube, but the ratio of the surface area to the the volume is different. So you may ask what relevance this has to Zelda, and, honestly I think that I might have out-thought myself. Stick with me though.
By adopting the playstyle of Sheilda, your opponent has to keep adjusting from one character to another, and thus both MUs become more friendly towards you. Consider the Samus MU, with Zelda this is one of her hardest battles, with Sheik, it is challanging but not impossible by any means. Now look at the Samus, they know both MUs for Zelda and Sheik but for the simple fact that you keep switching means that they are always one step behind. However there is something else to consider, transform is not a move that Zelda has, nor does Sheik possess the move: when played by themselves. Sure Sheik may use it to help him recover, but he doesn't exploit it like Sheildas do. Zelda on her own only would make use of it should she need to detonate dins. So because this is a move that is not considered in the solo Zelda or Sheik MUs then I infer that Sheilda is in her own right: a separate character. Because by switching up characters like Sheildas do: they are not just switching a character for one with a better MU: they are taking the MU and averaging it. Yet the the MU is slightly better than the average between them because those MUs leave out the entire down-b mechanic.

Hopefully I made sense.

 

[ECHOnce]

but but..but .. *keeps reading* ..its true but i still like the name T.T​

While Sheilda may not take up a space of her own on the character select screen. There is more to Sheilda than simply gaining a MU. It is a playstyle as much as it is a "main." People like myself take advantage of the Transform mechanics to not gain favorable MUs, but instead we divide them. Think of it as math (sorry for the four letter word): it is akin to taking a cube and looking at the ratio of the surface area to the volume, think of Zelda and Sheik as each one of these. Then you take the cube and multiply its dimensions by three. The ratio is no longer the same, it is the same cube, but the ratio of the surface area to the the volume is different. So you may ask what relevance this has to Zelda, and, honestly I think that I might have out-thought myself. Stick with me though.
By adopting the playstyle of Sheilda, your opponent has to keep adjusting from one character to another, and thus both MUs become more friendly towards you. Consider the Samus MU, with Zelda this is one of her hardest battles, with Sheik, it is challanging but not impossible by any means. Now look at the Samus, they know both MUs for Zelda and Sheik but for the simple fact that you keep switching means that they are always one step behind. However there is something else to consider, transform is not a move that Zelda has, nor does Sheik possess the move: when played by themselves. Sure Sheik may use it to help him recover, but he doesn't exploit it like Sheildas do. Zelda on her own only would make use of it should she need to detonate dins. So because this is a move that is not considered in the solo Zelda or Sheik MUs then I infer that Sheilda is in her own right: a separate character. Because by switching up characters like Sheildas do: they are not just switching a character for one with a better MU: they are taking the MU and averaging it. Yet the the MU is slightly better than the average between them because those MUs leave out the entire down-b mechanic.

Hopefully I made sense.

I can roll with that; I really only said Shielda isn't a character for the sake of getting technical and to better explain what I was trying to say. But yeah, idk how I managed to forget to bring up how Shielda screws with opponents by forcing them to constantly adapt, but at the end if the day, I'd still stick by my guns and not technically consider Shielda her own char. A playstyle, sure, but just one that uses two chars. Even though it can really mix things up and confuse the opponent, if both players are just as experienced playing with/against the Shielda MU, then I feel each player has more than enough time to adapt to the change in the Sheik/Zelda MU. At least on the Wii (default for tournies, so I'm assuming we should go by that aha), both players have about 0.5-1sec (can't remem frames) to mentally note that Transform is being used, change mindsets concerning how to play the MU, and then continue the match from that point on. Sort of like how...when in any match, if the positioning is reset to neutral, then the current instance is no longer as directly influenced by the previous instance, and in that way, the only thing connecting the two is mindgames and using past observations to adapt in the future...but physically, they are disconnected instances. Sorta like puzzle pieces that just happened to be arranged next to each other, but aren't tied together in any way and can fit with any other puzzle piece in a different order next time. It's not exactly the same, but I sort of feel that if both players are at the same level and know the MU well enough, then they should be able to adapt by changing mindsets between transform, and treat every transformation like it's a reset to neutral...just a super janky one where another character's puzzle pieces got used instead. But with that being said...chances are, most tournament-attenders won't be very experienced against Shielda play anyways, so using it as a mindgames will prob work with just about anyone besides play partners or ppl you regularly run into at tournies, etc.

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't have a lot to say yet because I should be doing work and not checking my remaining 30 or so notifications on Smashboards in this 50 minutes I have before I go to a four hour traffic course in which I hope I can secretly play FFTA on my phone. Anyways.

A little off topic but I have a strong feeling Sheik will be a LOT more viable in 3.5 thanks to recovery nerfs. While Sheik's needles aren't as amazing as they were in Melee, they are still a strong gimping tool and useful to give you some space. Sheik also has some decent kill moves (Fair and Uair come to mind for some reason), and interesting Smashes. You can use Ftilt in succession against some characters, or even Utilt consecutively against heavier characters (possibly fastfallers??) Fair is a solid kill move but a little hard to land. Uair is also hard to land, but since Sheik is a lot faster than Zelda (and Shiek's Uair> Zelda's Uair in terms of speed) you can pull out a Uair somewhat quickly. Sheik also has lingering hitboxes in her Nair and Bair (Bair stays out less, but longer than a typical move). I never use Dair as Sheik, so nothing to say there. You can also crawl as Sheik, which is somewhat useful for spacing Dtilt and aids in avoidance of some projectiles. Sheik can also wall jump and wall cling, the latter of which is seldomly used. Wall cling could have great applications though, especially when all the recoveries will be nerfed in 3.5. Sheik's chain is something I don't use much because I have no idea how to use it and it also takes forever to use. However, you can still chain jacket, although I haven't seen that used either and the timing is pretty precise. The Chain Jacket glitch is when you use any move, and then short hop, and release the chain at the apex of your short hop. If it worked, the properties of the move you use will be jacketed on the chain. But as I said, it's pretty hard to pull off and even if you do, you still actually have to use the chain to hit with the move. Also, Sheik has a multihit jab, which is nice to have access to. Her recovery is crap bananas though and has approximately 300,972 frames of endlag even if you manage to make it. Currently she is super easy to edgeguard.

I never have used a Sheilda playset in my experience with the character, though I have tried to angle a Din's really far down, and accidentally transformed because of it. Shielda is actually really unique because Zelda/Sheik can reliably transform anytime during the match. (Samus can revert to ZSS, but that's a one way change and your opponent must be busy cooking a pizza if they allow that to happen. Also ZSS can't transform back). It's good to learn the basics of Sheik, even if just for emergency 's sake. If you become decent with her, and are smart about transforming, you give the opponent two matchups to deal with, which no other character can really do in this game

 

[ECHOnce]

I feel like we shouldn't talk specifically about Sheik-only stuff during Shirkda discussion; that can stay on the Melee+PM Sheik boards, and we can make the trek over to learn about it if necessary lol (no need to repeat what's over there). But for the sake of clarifying some things:

Fair is a solid kill move but a little hard to land. Uair is also hard to land, but since Sheik is a lot faster than Zelda (and Shiek's Uair> Zelda's Uair in terms of speed) you can pull out a Uair somewhat quickly.

Actually they aren't too hard, prob just not used to the ranges yet lol. Sheik has tons of fairly reliable combos into her aerials, and they come out quickly.

I never use Dair as Sheik, so nothing to say there

Huge mistake many Sheiks make. D-air is a godly combo tool. Timing is a little weird, but after half a second or so of starting a D-air, you can start to FF it. Launches chars up perfectly for a N-air/F-air/U-air, or for platform tech chases against spacies/falcon. Think of it like a dash attack; it's super unsafe most of the time, but if they're in hit-stun or you use it as a mix-up, it's pretty good. Watch M2K Melee vids and you'll see some on occasion lol.[/quote]

Also, Sheik has a multihit jab, which is nice to have access to.

As with all multi-hit jab combos, you should just use the first two hits for safe-ish hits on shield or if they're potentially about to shield. Comes out on frame 2 I think, super bueno. Like most jabs, she can cancel and restart the jab combo midway via pressing down in-between jabs (jab-jab-down, and repeat). Not super useful, but it's there if u need it.

Her recovery is crap bananas though and has approximately 300,972 frames of endlag even if you manage to make it. Currently she is super easy to edgeguard.

She can be easy to edgeguard, but Sheiks can pull through if they know what they're doing. Always go for the ledge, never the stage; her Up-B is by far one of the easiest to sweetspot it with. It gains invincibility a little before the disappearing explosion happens, so it's super safe against a lot of approaches. Once you get used to the timing of moving before the explosion and then picking the direction she'll reappear in (while considering when you'll have invincibility), you should be able to maneuver it well enough to sweetspot the ledge from any point around a certain distance from the edge with relative ease, guaranteed unharmed.

Issues arise only if the opponent enjoys ramen-noodling to grab the edge and/or camping on the edge. Few options that can often help are to (1) needle them before they can ramen noodle, or after they lose ledge invincibility if they grab the edge early. If the edge-camp from early and keep refreshing invincibility until you get close, go low super low, and then either (2) double jump > F-air/Rising N-air, (3) wall-jump > double jump > airdodge onto stage or Up-B to ledge, or (4) wall-jump > double jump > B-air > airdodge/Up-B. As a last resort, you can Up-B onto platforms or as far on-stage as possible, or try to catch them off-guard by hitting them with the explosion lol. Another reason you'll want to make max use of the direction and length of Up-B is so that you never get caught Up-Bing straight to the ledge and then get edgehogged. If you use the initial pre-explosion movement to reach just within distance of being able to reappear on stage, then you have the option of going for the ledge or mixing it up and appearing on stage; so long as you can react fast enough, the opponent won't be able to tell until it happens. You'll still take the ledge get-up attack to the face during landing lag, but it's better than getting straight-out edgehogged.

 

[TimeSmash]

I might ask some PM Sheiks to contribute on general tips on Sheik as well. We will see how it goes!

 

[WhiteCrow]

Any time I have the opportunity to safely transform I would rather be setting Din's or re-positioning myself with a teledash. There just isn't enough incentive to switch to Sheik. I'm already dissatisfied with my performance as Zelda and strive to play as efficiently as possible, why double my work load with another character? With different advanced tech? With a different wave dash and punish options? With a totally different neutral game? You might answer those questions by saying that they cover each others weaknesses but I'd argue that it's not worth the time unless you absolutely love.

Here's another way to look at it. Imagine if Roy and Marth could transform between each other with down b. Every time they transformed the user would need to readjust their combo game, their spacing game, their weights, their recovery, and their specials, and those two character have extremely similar moves while Zelda and Sheik's are extremely different. You can say that the opponent also has to approach the match up differently but ultimately the technical prowess of the character relies on the player. You would have to be just as good with one character as you are the other, in every aspect of their play style, otherwise transforming would be pointless, punishable, and a waste in positioning. It's just like switching characters in between games only you can do it mid match when the pressure is really on. I don't think Sheilda is for everyone, Zelda mains least of all, and I'm just not convinced by its viability.

 

[ECHOnce]

Any time I have the opportunity to safely transform I would rather be setting Din's or re-positioning myself with a teledash. There just isn't enough incentive to switch to Sheik. I'm already dissatisfied with my performance as Zelda and strive to play as efficiently as possible, why double my work load with another character? With different advanced tech? With a different wave dash and punish options? With a totally different neutral game? You might answer those questions by saying that they cover each others weaknesses but I'd argue that it's not worth the time unless you absolutely love.

Here's another way to look at it. Imagine if Roy and Marth could transform between each other with down b. Every time they transformed the user would need to readjust their combo game, their spacing game, their weights, their recovery, and their specials, and those two character have extremely similar moves while Zelda and Sheik's are extremely different. You can say that the opponent also has to approach the match up differently but ultimately the technical prowess of the character relies on the player. You would have to be just as good with one character as you are the other, in every aspect of their play style, otherwise transforming would be pointless, punishable, and a waste in positioning. It's just like switching characters in between games only you can do it mid match when the pressure is really on. I don't think Sheilda is for everyone, Zelda mains least of all, and I'm just not convinced by its viability.

At the very least, regardless of how viable one is to consider the use of Shielda or using Sheik to be...being able to play moderately well allows you to have a backup plan if you get counterpicked in tourney, and your Zelda is getting bopped. Marths, Roys, Charizards, DKs, Bowsers, and a few others are MUs that destroy me as Zelda, amongst my play partners who've gotten used to Zelda stuff. I'm a Sheik/Shielda main now, but even back then when I mained Zelda and played her 90% of the times (barely touched Sheik even in friendlies), Sheik's MU is just way easier against them imo...doable with Zelda, but it's an unnecessary and uphill battle. And I found that if I felt uncomfortable playing Sheik at any point, there was nothing stopping me from simply going back to Zelda if it wasn't working out.

EDIT: of course, counterpicking opponents is what secondaries/etc. are for lol...but there's not much you can do to stop from getting counterpicked yourself, so if it happens...it's just one more option. Nothing to potentially lose from looking into all your main's options, while the opp. can't really be said to be true.

 

[Prynne]

Sometimes, if my opponent is at 100% or more and I have a Din's out, and I have trouble getting them to die, I'll switch for the explosion, and if that doesn't work, I settle for da slap. Sheik's a prominent Secondary of mine, though, so I usually opt for one or the other, though switching in the middle of a fight throws people off like a mother.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

At the very least, regardless of how viable one is to consider the use of Shielda or using Sheik to be...being able to play moderately well allows you to have a backup plan if you get counterpicked in tourney, and your Zelda is getting bopped. Marths, Roys, Charizards, DKs, Bowsers, and a few others are MUs that destroy me as Zelda, amongst my play partners who've gotten used to Zelda stuff. I'm a Sheik/Shielda main now, but even back then when I mained Zelda and played her 90% of the times (barely touched Sheik even in friendlies), Sheik's MU is just way easier against them imo...doable with Zelda, but it's an unnecessary and uphill battle. And I found that if I felt uncomfortable playing Sheik at any point, there was nothing stopping me from simply going back to Zelda if it wasn't working out.

EDIT: of course, counterpicking opponents is what secondaries/etc. are for lol...but there's not much you can do to stop from getting counterpicked yourself, so if it happens...it's just one more option. Nothing to potentially lose from looking into all your main's options, while the opp. can't really be said to be true.

My sparring buddy ShadowGanon mains Ganon, Roy, and Falcon and so I find it very hard to circumvent those characters. I usually resort to going Sheilda and that usually works because they're just so different.

 

[TimeSmash]

Anyone else have more thought on Shielda??

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Anyone else have more thought on Shielda??

Not much...

 

[4tlas]

Hi, I've been following these forums for awhile, and I made an account to post because of all the recent Sheilda stuff that's come up. I'm a Sheilda main, so before you move on to the next topic I wanted to throw in my 2cents.

Because you don't have access to both characters' movesets at all times, we can really only consider "Sheilda" to be a thing when you have time to transform. A huge problem I have right now is that the load time is not only long, but VARIABLE depending on the Wii! This inconsistency makes it difficult to transform quickly, so the situations in which transforming is safe are limited. I would say these, against a good player (unless on a big stage against someone who wants to camp), amount to when the opponent has been sent off the edge, is dead/respawning, or you are respawning. If the other player is very campy on a big stage, you can transform to gain the approach options of the other character.

So each of these situations has different value for transforming, as you will use a different part of the alternate moveset in the scenario immediately following the transform.

For edgeguarding, dins combo'd with LK make for good options against characters with very long recoveries with only 1 large mixup that does NOT have a hitbox to clank dins with. For example, Diddy Kong can recover from far away but his upB/sideB do not clank the dins. If you were Sheik, you could either hog and bair off the ledge or stand on stage and jump/run off for a fair. But his upB mixup allows him to recover and avoid you no matter which you pick, so it becomes a 50/50 of mindgames and reading as to whether you will stay where you currently are to edgeguard or if you will switch to the other option. And then he can still do it again because of Sheik's mediocre kill power! And so on. However, as Zelda you can block one of those options with dins. Now his options are to recover the other way, eating a LK, or recover into the dins, hopefully allowing you to LK anyway. And the LK should kill him outright from the ledge, or at least put him so far away that the next edgeguard is easy.

On the other hand, Sheik's persistent hitboxes are great against tethers and multiple mixups, as ledgedrop bairs can consistently rack up damage and force a return to the edgeguard scenario. Even if the opponent has a hitbox that trades with Sheik, she still gains more than the opponent for the edgeguard.

Some recoveries are easy to edgeguard either way, and some are hard no matter what. Donkey Kong, for example, can be dealt with easily as either character. LK and dins can easily take out his upB, and Sheik can just hit him until he stops returning without issue. Captain Falcon is similar. Mewtwo, on the other hand, is difficult to edgeguard no matter what, with instant teleport in any direction and a double jump that allows him to always recover from at least stage height.

If the opponent has died, there are a few reasons to transform. Transforming to Zelda allows placement of some fresh dins, and a good defensive moveset in case you just acquired the lead. Some players will also go aggro upon spawning because they feel the need to catch back up, allowing you to manipulate their approach and LK them to hell. Teleport can allow you to avoid respawn invincibility. Transforming to Sheik allows you to run away from their invuln, and as JaiCho mentioned if you are at high percent after taking their stock you may want to use her weight to survive. These are dependent on the matchup and stage.

If you have just died, you can use the transform to change the pace of the game or punish the opponent for not respecting that change. If someone had just started getting used to the neutral game, or how to DI out of your combos, switching can also be advantageous. Again, as JaiCho mentioned, Zelda is difficult to combo, so switching to her upon spawn may help you if the opponent likes to be aggressive.

Finally, the random switch. I actually feel this is useful as a bait move. Not in the sense that you let them come hit you out of it, but in the sense that if you are playing anyone who doesn't know you play both characters, you can manipulate their mindset. I have had many players think "oh, now he's vulnerable, that was an accidental switch!" and suddenly play as if I'm a scrub. Then I abuse that and use it to my advantage with reads.

Oh, and of course if you're playing on a Wii that lets you transform fast (or someone else is playing the char youre trying to transform to), then go ahead and use it to recover. Sometimes I use it if I'm high above my opponent to turn to Sheik and fall fast, and sometimes I use it to turn to Zelda and teleport for lateral distance, depending on the stage. Sometimes I transform to Zelda to gain a little extra distance on my lower-boundary recoveries because the Sheik one is easily edgehoggable, and sometimes I transform to Sheik because I was dead anyway and didnt want to waste invuln frames on the teleport.

I hope Sheilda can really become a thing. I'm kinda tired of the commentators always saying "OH, he SWITCHED?! That must've been input error!" When it does better they shut up even though I transform back later, and when it doesn't work they're all like "Yeah I thought that was stupid". Part of the transform is the mindgame, not the matchup, and sometimes that doesn't work. You can't know if you don't try! /salt

 

[Kaeldiar]

I guess before we move on to the next topic, I'll add my 2 cents. I really don't play PM Sheik, so I don't have too much to say other than...

It is very important to buffer a move out of Transform. Transform allows you to buffer a move, so that it comes out on the first possible frame. That makes it easier for YOU to get a free hit than for your opponent. You'll see Zhime using it a lot in his combo videos, typically by buffering a Sheik f-air or a Zelda LK.

 

[TimeSmash]

Hmmmm hmmmm. What to talk about next.

Have we talked about Dtilt? I feel like it's underutilised.

 

[4tlas]

What were the previous topics? Teleburn, Dair, Dins, Sheilda?

 

[TimeSmash]

Most of them should be in the OP. Granted I haven't updated it in a while, but the subjects I can remember were Din's, Teleport/Teledash, Nayru's. Lightning Kicks, Dair, Nair, UAir (?), and Shielda.