Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[Downdraft]

Wavebounced Love Jump
Perform the Love Jump as per usual and either DI backwards (what I do) before executing one our b-reverse it to go forwards.

Short hop reversal nayru
Just get the cancel height down and jump then b-reverse Nayru's
Nayru's Escape
Simply using wavebounced Love Jumps to escape combos.
Love Jump
When coming out of a state of KB and hitstun jump and perform Nayru's. You will fly upwards in what's called the Love Jump.
FFl nayru cancel
When you fast fall Nayru's and end up land canceling it.
FFL nayru
Mash b while in hitstun and knockback. Zelda's panic button.
The Diamond Dive:
When coming out of a state of KB and HS, b-reverse Nayru's when you have entered the tumble animation and most momentum is gone.
The Forwards Diamond Dive (simple):
DI away from the point of launch and hit b. You will travel at an angle while in Nayru's. Not as good as the Recoiled Diamond Dive, but easier.
The Recoiled Diamond Dive:
Perform the Diamond Dive but with a Recoil Special, you will travel away from the launch point at a better angle than the simple forwards DD. Not only that, but it is quicker to execute than the simple version.

If I'm wrong: tell me.

Thanks. I'll print this out and try them tomorrow.

 

[TimeSmash]

@ Downdraft I'm also talking about how people use Nayru's in general, in addition to advanced techniques. I think ATs are important, but it's also good to know how people use the move as is. Sorry if I've been vague on that! > <

What do you guys think about approaching with Nayru's?

 

[ShadowGanon]

@ Downdraft I'm also talking about how people use Nayru's in general, in addition to advanced techniques. I think ATs are important, but it's also good to know how people use the move as is. Sorry if I've been vague on that! > <

What do you guys think about approaching with Nayru's?

Is Reverse Aerial Rush -> Land Canceled Nayru's a thing?

 

[Downdraft]

@ Downdraft I'm also talking about how people use Nayru's in general, in addition to advanced techniques. I think ATs are important, but it's also good to know how people use the move as is. Sorry if I've been vague on that! > <

What do you guys think about approaching with Nayru's?

Thanks for the clarification.
Approaching with Nayru's depends on the opponent. Some people are good at predicting and countering it.
You might need to approach with Nayru's in order to get through projectiles, e.g. Samus's missiles and charge shot from across the stage.

Is Reverse Aerial Rush -> Land Canceled Nayru's a thing?

RAR is a trick that I haven't tried, so I can't answer that question.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thanks for the clarification.
Approaching with Nayru's depends on the opponent. Some people are good at predicting and countering it.
You might need to approach with Nayru's in order to get through projectiles, e.g. Samus's missiles and charge shot from across the stage.

RAR is a trick that I haven't tried, so I can't answer that question.

You can do it without b-sticking. Yes @ ShadowGanon , it's a thing. RARed bair, Nayru's, retreat/pursuit.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'd love to see a video of the RAR Nayru's in action.

This is a random question, but Nayru's can't reflect Solarbeam right? If I recall, it can't be reflected but it can be absorbed by Ness/Lucas. Also wondering if Seed Bomb can be reflected as well. I agree with you that Nayru's is a good way to approach opponents with projectiles, because sometimes I can't seem to get in any other way.

Shoot another question I have is what to watch out for when using this move, things like how it can be shielded the whole way through, etc.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'd love to see a video of the RAR Nayru's in action.

This is a random question, but Nayru's can't reflect Solarbeam right? If I recall, it can't be reflected but it can be absorbed by Ness/Lucas. Also wondering if Seed Bomb can be reflected as well. I agree with you that Nayru's is a good way to approach opponents with projectiles, because sometimes I can't seem to get in any other way.

Shoot another question I have is what to watch out for when using this move, things like how it can be shielded the whole way through, etc.

With Samus I don't like using Nayru's, it leaves me open for her approach even if I land-cancel it. What I do is teledash past one or two, waveland backwards and repeat. Or perfect shield, that works to.

The Diamond Dive: When entering the tumble animation after a state of knockback and hitstun: Wavebounce Nayru's Love to fast fall Nayu's at an angle of up to 45 degrees.

The Backwards Diamond Dive: B-reverse Nayru's after DIing away from the point of launch.

Forwards Diamond Dive: B-reverse Nayru's toward the launch point then away. The inverse makes it go backwards but the same can be accomplished with a b-reversal. (not as effective but worth mentioning is that you can simply DI away from the point of launch and press b to do a forwards Diamond Dive, but the angle isn't as wide as the recoiled version and it takes longer to perform.)

The Recoil Special: To perform this technique without the c-stick (which you have to to do a neutral b), the player must jump forward, do a special backwards, then immediately smash the control stick or D-pad forward. This will make the character turn twice, and will create the bounce.

 

[Kaeldiar]

This is a random question, but Nayru's can't reflect Solarbeam right? If I recall, it can't be reflected but it can be absorbed by Ness/Lucas. Also wondering if Seed Bomb can be reflected as well. Shoot another question I have is what to watch out for when using this move, things like how it can be shielded the whole way through, etc.

Nayru's cannot reflect Solarbeam. I don't know about Seed Bomb.
Nayru's can be punished hard by simply being shielded, by aerial approaches from above, and largely disjointed hitboxes. Using it as an approach is dangerous, especially if your foe tends to shield when approached. That being said, I like to use it to "counter-approach." I set up Din's to force them to approach, then when they come at me with a SHFFL or something of the like, I jump towards them to throw off their spacing and use a land-canceled Nayru's. It typically knocks them near (if not into) the Din's, and you can follow up easily.
You can also stay in place or wavedash forward, and use a grounded Nayru's for the invincibility frames.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Nayru's cannot reflect Solarbeam. I don't know about Seed Bomb.
Nayru's can be punished hard by simply being shielded, by aerial approaches from above, and largely disjointed hitboxes. Using it as an approach is dangerous, especially if your foe tends to shield when approached. That being said, I like to use it to "counter-approach." I set up Din's to force them to approach, then when they come at me with a SHFFL or something of the like, I jump towards them to throw off their spacing and use a land-canceled Nayru's. It typically knocks them near (if not into) the Din's, and you can follow up easily.
You can also stay in place or wavedash forward, and use a grounded Nayru's for the invincibility frames.

I usually utilize a retreating Nayru's after a missed bair. I don't do that with fair though, with fair I waveland and bait them into a F-smash. I agree though, people say that Nayru's is OP (@ ShadowGanon ) but just shield it and grab. The shield grab even works against land-canceled Nayru's in my experience.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I usually utilize a retreating Nayru's after a missed bair. I don't do that with fair though, with fair I waveland and bait them into a F-smash. I agree though, people say that Nayru's is OP (@ ShadowGanon ) but just shield it and grab. The shield grab even works against land-canceled Nayru's in my experience.

That's kind of funny that you should mention that, because I tried shield grabbing Whitelightnin out of Nayru's the other day, but, because he land canceled it, he grabbed first. There goes that strategy.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

That's kind of funny that you should mention that, because I tried shield grabbing Whitelightnin out of Nayru's the other day, but, because he land canceled it, he grabbed first. There goes that strategy.

That's because of Ganon's grab range and your timing. Not my fault. Do it with Marth, Roy, Zelda, anyone who has a better grab range.

 

[ShadowGanon]

That's because of Ganon's grab range and your timing. Not my fault. Do it with Marth, Roy, Zelda, anyone who has a better grab range.

Stupid grab range...

Spoiler

 

[TimeSmash]

Wrapping this up by the weekend or next Monday.
Questions:

How SDI-able is Nayru's?
What the invincibility frames of Nayru's?
Can someone give me a brief description of landcancelling Nayru's that I can quote, it would be super helpful.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Wrapping this up by the weekend or next Monday.
Questions:

How SDI-able is Nayru's?
What the invincibility frames of Nayru's?
Can someone give me a brief description of landcancelling Nayru's that I can quote, it would be super helpful.

1. Not sure. Someone should look into that. I put in a request with Zelda Social
2. 4-11
3. Using Nayru's in the air, then landing right after the attack frames are over. Then you can cancel the rest of the attack with anything, including simply movement

On the subject of Diamond Diving, a lot of people unfamiliar with ATs (read: me) were having trouble with exactly how it works. I was able to come up with a short written summary of how it works. In all cases pretend that you are being hit to the left.

To DD away...hold left after contact to DI away and create horizontal momentum. Then let go of left and hit B to start Nayru's.
To DD towards...hold left after contact to DI away and create horizontal momentum. Then let go of left and hit B to start Nayru's. THEN immediately hit and hold left again to move right (yeah, I know, weird) and DD back to them

EDIT: Note that in every case, you ALWAYS press away from the opponent on the control stick. Never towards

 

[TimeSmash]

This post is frankly amazing and big luscious chunks of it will be quoted.

 

[Kaeldiar]

This post is frankly amazing and big luscious chunks of it will be quoted.

You can thank @WhiteLightnin for the Diamond Dive description

 

[TimeSmash]

Thanks for clarifying! Another question, what do all of you do after you Love Jump? I am just getting into using it but once I'm above the enemy, I'm kind of like crap, because that is Zelda's worst position haha

Edit: Worse -> Worst. Proper grammar is key

 

[Downdraft]

@ Kaeldiar : You can hold towards the opponent and hit B to Diamond Dive in their direction; it's just a slower option.
Does you short description contain the fastest options? There's are 4 types of Diamond Diving, and your post only covers 2.
FFL Nayru's, Wavebounced DD, B-reversed DD, and DD after DI are the 4 versions. The first and last are the simplest, but the middle two are a bit tougher.

Thanks for clarifying! Another question, what do all of you do after you Love Jump? I am just getting into using it but once I'm above the enemy, I'm kind of like crap, because that is Zelda's worst position haha

Edit: Worse -> Worst. Proper grammar is key

You don't have to love jump straight up; that's not a good idea versus characters that have a high vertical range like Sonic and Charizard.
Love Jump behind the opponent or off the stage and Fast Fall to the stage if it's safe or Farore's Wind to the ledge, then you only have to worry about predicting how your opponent will edgeguard.

 

[TimeSmash]

I didn't know you could angle the Love Jump upwards diagonally. Do you mean DI away from the opponent while in hitstun and then Love Jump when appropriate?

Like:

Z = Zelda
O = Some douchey opponent

- Z
-
-
-___________O______

| DI to the left
V


-
- Z <- Love Jump now!
-
-___________O______

Note that Z in the first part above the arrow was supposed to be directly above the opponent.

 

[Downdraft]

I didn't know you could angle the Love Jump upwards diagonally. Do you mean DI away from the opponent while in hitstun and then Love Jump when appropriate?

Like:

Z = Zelda
O = Some douchey opponent

- Z
-
-
-___________O______

| DI to the left
V


-
- Z <- Love Jump now!
-
-___________O______

http://smashboards.com/threads/trif...his-week-nayrus-3.347647/page-2#post-16586579
I think this post explains it better than I can. I just know that you can Love Jump left and right.

 

[TimeSmash]

Ah, that helped. There was another question I was going to ask about Nayru's, but I just can't remember it argh. Does anyone use it while descending as a mix-up? Sometimes it functions as a get away move for me when I'm not too high up/descending from a short hop. But I usually do it when I'm not right above the enemy.

 

[Downdraft]

The best players in my group don't give me the time to do all the aerial momentum and direction shifting Nayru's allows off of a short hop.
I really don't understand how one is supposed SH B-reversed Nayru's and SH Wavebounced Nayru's.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'm going to eventually compile everything together when I have time, but I feel like our next subject should be all about Zelda's aerials. I think it'd be best if we started off talking about the Lightning Kicks!

Please discuss general properties of the move, possibly setups into the move, what you think is good spacing for it, as well as exact locations of the sweet and sourspots. Frame data is always appreciated! Anything about the kicks is good.

To start off, if someone flubs their DI on my DThrow, I can often follow up with a Kick to easily rack up like 30-45%

 

[Downdraft]

A video or clip is worth a thousand words.
http://youtu.be/rgjGJnkF4Lg?t=48s

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

Twinkle toes!

No but really. I love and hate her Fair and Bair at the same time. I love it because, well, it kills. I hate it because it's got like 3 spots on it and each one has different properties :s It's not always fun toe-ing someone at 105% and watching them live because you didn't hit the perfect spot and they DI'ed it -.-

Anyway!

.:: My Favorite Combos ::.

Ftilt > Usmash > Usmash > Bair or Fair
- This combo only works with poor DI and on the heavier/larger cast of characters. On the spacies, I've found that it works starting at the mid %s, like, around 20%+. On those like Bowser and D3, it works at any of the lower to mid %s. Just pop them over your head with the ftilt and smash away. You can only finish with a kick if your opponent DIs horribly.

Din's Fire upper corner > Din's fire anywhere else > Grab > Pummel > Back throw into un-exploding Din's > Bair
- By utilizing the Din's as a momentum stopper, you can catch your opponents with a nice kick to the teeth if you throw them far enough away that you come out of the ending lag of the throw, but still close enough that you can jump and kick them. Not sure about the DI on this one, but I've found it useful.

There's more, but I'm too tired to think of them/explain them right now @.@ Finals please stahp I need to not be dead.

I hope this is a decent little idea-starter for some other combos c:

 

[Kaeldiar]

Get them onto a platform, typically with up-throw at low percents or d-throw at higher, then tech chase the get-up and punish with LK.

Din's at a low level behind them, forcing an approach. Nayru's the approach to knock them into Din's, then LK when they bounce back

 

[TimeSmash]

I'm lovin these posts keep it up.

LKs are GREAT for stages with short horizontal boundaries, like WarioWare, Yoshi's Island, etc. Sometimes when I get the flub hit, I can fastfall or respace quick enough to sweetspot a kick. Situational, obviously, but it happens.

I would also say don't be afraid to just throw a Fair/Bair in someone's face. If you haven't used it in a while it's a great stealth move haha.

If anyone has general descriptions, or better yet a picture of the hitboxes on Zelda's Fair or Bair it would be greatly appreciated.

It's also super hard for me to land kicks on small characters like Meta Knight, Squirtle, etc.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I'm lovin these posts keep it up.

LKs are GREAT for stages with short horizontal boundaries, like WarioWare, Yoshi's Island, etc. Sometimes when I get the flub hit, I can fastfall or respace quick enough to sweetspot a kick. Situational, obviously, but it happens.

I would also say don't be afraid to just throw a Fair/Bair in someone's face. If you haven't used it in a while it's a great stealth move haha.

If anyone has general descriptions, or better yet a picture of the hitboxes on Zelda's Fair or Bair it would be greatly appreciated.

It's also super hard for me to land kicks on small characters like Meta Knight, Squirtle, etc.

Ask and you shall receive.

F-air:

Duration
• Entire move lasts 38 frames
Hitboxes
• (Orange) Sour spot lasts frames 8-11 dealing 8 damage
• (Purple) Sweet spot lasts frames 9-11 dealing 16 damage
• (Dotted-Line Purple) Crit spot is on frame 8 dealing 22 damage
Landing Lag
• L-Canceled: 9 frames
• Normal: 18 frames
• Auto-canceled: 4 frames
Autocancel Window
• AttackAirF: <8 25>

B-air:

Duration
• Entire move lasts 34 frames
Hitboxes
• (Orange) Sour spot lasts frames 5-8 dealing 8 damage
• (Purple) Sweet spot lasts frames 6-8 dealing 15 damage
• (Dotted-Line Purple) Crit spot is on frame 5 dealing 21 damage
Landing Lag
• L-Canceled: 9 frames
• Normal: 18 frames
• Auto-canceled: 4 frames
Autocancel Win
• AttackAirB: <5 25>

 

[TimeSmash]

Posting to post how much I appreciate this post.

Just come to the dark side already ShadowGanon!!

Edit: I also haven't thought about it much, but does anyone have any suggestions for a "rising" Lightning Kick, as in double jumping and instantly Fairing/Bairing? Could be useful, but I haven't done it yet

 

[ShadowGanon]

Posting to post how much I appreciate this post.

Just come to the dark side already ShadowGanon!!

Edit: I also haven't thought about it much, but does anyone have any suggestions for a "rising" Lightning Kick, as in double jumping and instantly Fairing/Bairing? Could be useful, but I haven't done it yet

The credit should go to @Sartron for making the Zelda hitbox and frame data thread. I just copied and pasted the info from there.

And, no, I've tried playing Zelda. I find her boring (no offense). I'd rather play a character that isn't so good and work my way through the ranks than get accused of playing an "OP" character. Over time my view of what makes Zelda so stupid good has changed, but that is for a different thread. But, more than all of that, I like playing characters I can style with. In my opinion, Zelda just isn't that stylish.

EDIT: Your best bet with rising Lightning kicks would be b-air because it comes out faster and can be used more times consecutively in the air due to less ending lag.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Edit: I also haven't thought about it much, but does anyone have any suggestions for a "rising" Lightning Kick, as in double jumping and instantly Fairing/Bairing? Could be useful, but I haven't done it yet

Eh, it doesn't really work all that well as a "rising LK" since it doesn't last very long. You don't get a hotbox that travels up with you like Ness would with a non DJC'd fair. That being said, it still works pretty nicely as a follow up to some moves, since it IS coming out faster. Check out what I do at 0:51 of this video ( http://www.twitch.tv/seamoose_thelight/b/525589568 ). I do sort of the same thing to finish the match at 1:49.Basically, it doesn't work so well as a "rising hitbox" type of move, but using it as soon as you jump is an effective way to get the move out a little faster. It is well within the realm of possibility to land sweetspotted kicks by throwing them out early in the jump, rather than floating around and such.

 

[TimeSmash]

The credit should go to @Sartron for making the Zelda hitbox and frame data thread. I just copied and pasted the info from there.

And, no, I've tried playing Zelda. I find her boring (no offense). I'd rather play a character that isn't so good and work my way through the ranks than get accused of playing an "OP" character. Over time my view of what makes Zelda so stupid good has changed, but that is for a different thread. But, more than all of that, I like playing characters I can style with. In my opinion, Zelda just isn't that stylish.

EDIT: Your best bet with rising Lightning kicks would be b-air because it comes out faster and can be used more times consecutively in the air due to less ending lag.

And to each their own definitely. I'm actually a Zelda/Peach main, and second ZSS and Ivysaur. I know lots about style haha. Also thanks for giving Sarton credit too!

Eh, it doesn't really work all that well as a "rising LK" since it doesn't last very long. You don't get a hotbox that travels up with you like Ness would with a non DJC'd fair. That being said, it still works pretty nicely as a follow up to some moves, since it IS coming out faster. Check out what I do at 0:51 of this video ( http://www.twitch.tv/seamoose_thelight/b/525589568 ). I do sort of the same thing to finish the match at 1:49.Basically, it doesn't work so well as a "rising hitbox" type of move, but using it as soon as you jump is an effective way to get the move out a little faster. It is well within the realm of possibility to land sweetspotted kicks by throwing them out early in the jump, rather than floating around and such.

That's awesome. I've done this a little bit, that was like 45% in less than five seconds haha. But it was definitely in the vein of what I was referring to.

How much does knockback does Fair have over Bair? Sorry for all the questions but it helps foster the conversation haha. Also what are your guys' thoughts on fastfalling through a platform or running off a platform and immediately performing an LK? How successful is it for you guys??

 

[WhiteCrow]

Sorry this is really late but for Farore's Wind I think it's worth noting that it can't go straight down through moving platforms, like Smashville and Dracula's Castle. You can still teledash diagonally from the platform but it can be hard. You CAN teleport through moving platforms that move to certain formations, but only if they are stationary. You cannot teleport down through the Smashville platform at any time since it is constantly moving.

And my thoughts on lightning kicks: Double bair OoS? Dair OoS? Fast falling fair OoS? So real. I love Fountain of Dreams since the weird platform heights can lead to shffled kicks that Zelda can't do anywhere else. It also benefits up tilt, up smash, angled forward tilt, and re-positioning Din's, but we're talking about the boots with the fur. When the platforms are low you can drop off so low for ground zero bairs. Fair>wave land back>jab is nice to have for spacing. How hard/useful is RAR bair for Zelda?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Also what are your guys' thoughts on fastfalling through a platform or running off a platform and immediately performing an LK? How successful is it for you guys??

I really like doing this but you have to make sure they are ready to punish. If you space the critical on their shield it can be safe if l-cancelled. I like jumping off stage and coming back with a bair.

 

[TimeSmash]

Hey everyone, I can actually be active again!

For this two-week period, let's dicuss the use of Nair in general. To start off, I think it's a great tool to come up though platforms with

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

Ah Nair, how I love thee.

No but really, Zelda's Nair is a really great tool.

Personally, I use Nair to end combos (or continue them if I can chase a tech or something).
Ftilt > Usmash > Nair works at certain percents and will either continue into further combos, or will leave you with stage advantage (most of the time).

Nair is really good because you can scoop people up from platforms (like TimeSmash said), but it's also kind of dangerous to use, because people can shield grab you out of it if they're precise.

While it's fun, I wouldn't use it too much, because you can get mega punished from it when people shield it -.- It's more of a mid-combo/shield poke-y thing, in my eyes at least.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Zelda's NAIR is a fantastic tool for several reasons:

It is primarily used as a more guaranteed follow up to platformed enemies, generally good against smaller characters like ness that are more difficult to FAIR or BAIR
It is very good for interrupting an approach from above as it has good persistence

However, while it flourishes on platforms it hasn't got many other uses, it can be easily punished on whiff, and lacks any decent follow up (except when ground cancelled early in the movie in which case the opponent will not be hit by the last hit that would send them away, in this case it can be followed by up smash/tilt). Not only that but it is sometimes difficult to predict where the move will throw them, making follow ups even harder.

Therefore I suggest you use with caution, and in situations where you can't be sure that you can get the lightning kick

 

[flying_tortoise]

Anyone know how to determine which direction you send your opponent flying from nair?
I find myself trying to nair someone into a din explosion yet they will go in the opposite direction of what I wanted

 

[ECHOnce]

Anyone know how to determine which direction you send your opponent flying from nair?
I find myself trying to nair someone into a din explosion yet they will go in the opposite direction of what I wanted

Multi-hit attacks often have many frames with hitboxes aimed inward, and then have a final outward hitbox frame. IOW Zelda's Nair drags enemies inward, and on the last frame, they're fired in seemingly random directions. In reality, they're just being moved from one hitbox to another, until the final hitframe comes with the outward hitboxes. However close they are to each of the four hitboxes on that last hitframe determines their trajectory.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Multi-hit attacks often have many frames with hitboxes aimed inward, and then have a final outward hitbox frame. IOW Zelda's Nair drags enemies inward, and on the last frame, they're fired in seemingly random directions. In reality, they're just being moved from one hitbox to another, until the final hitframe comes with the outward hitboxes. However close they are to each of the four hitboxes on that last hitframe determines their trajectory.

If I am above the opponent and they jump up (towards the end of their jump; around highest point) I would ffl nair bring them to the ground with me, l-cancel, downsmash. Now I know why that works. Thanks a bunch