Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[WhiteCrow]

Instead of thinking of it as a combo extender try thinking of it as a launch follow up. Any time you launch an opponent you need to gauge if you should be placing Din's/chasing for aerials/re-positioning. One thing I've been trying recently is Din out of full hit nair, curving it down at first to give me a moment to read their DI. You want your Din's in the most inconvenient spaces for your opponent in hit stun.

I like Kaeldiar's comparison to Rolex's Snake. It's all about having frustrating placements and knowing when and where to place your "mines." I was a Snake main in brawl, so I kind of treat them like items. You never want to waste a placement, and you have to acknowledge how fragile then are.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

My biggest problem with Dins is that people always destroy them. So I can't have any out unless they're way out of reach or edgeguarding.

 

[Kaeldiar]

My biggest problem with Dins is that people always destroy them. So I can't have any out unless they're way out of reach or edgeguarding.

If they take the time to destroy them, that's an opening. Not to mention, you have to be pretty precise to get rid of them without hitting them, unless your name is Marth. If you see them trying to destroy it, go after them! Then, they have to worry about dodging you, which means they might bump into the Din's they have so conveniently put themselves next to

Din's isn't something you throw out there, hoping they'll run into it. You use them strategically. You use them as feints, as pseudo-pressure. One does not simply use Din's alone. Din's works best in conjunction with everything else you do.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

If they take the time to destroy them, that's an opening. Not to mention, you have to be pretty precise to get rid of them without hitting them, unless your name is Marth. If you see them trying to destroy it, go after them! Then, they have to worry about dodging you, which means they might bump into the Din's they have so conveniently put themselves next to

Din's isn't something you throw out there, hoping they'll run into it. You use them strategically. You use them as feints, as pseudo-pressure. One does not simply use Din's alone. Din's works best in conjunction with everything else you do.

Ganon can eliminate them with everything and not be punished, Roy: the same. Ivy: no problem. My three worst MUs for Zelda. Now that's not to say that I can't get them out period, but just that it's more difficult to do so and stay safe.

 

[SmashTheCstik]

I think we should talk about Din's combo potential and known combos. For me i like to use it to set up a Dair spike. After you knock them off the stage, place your Din in the path of their recovery, preferably where they will get hit on their jump or up B, time your jump properly so you'll be above them once they hit it and bounce up into your Dair. Easy spike for me.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I think we should talk about Din's combo potential and known combos. For me i like to use it to set up a Dair spike. After you knock them off the stage, place your Din in the path of their recovery, preferably where they will get hit on their jump or up B, time your jump properly so you'll be above them once they hit it and bounce up into your Dair. Easy spike for me.

I think that the best way for us to discuss this is to DO it. I REALLY need help with my Zelda with Dins so this would be good for me. How about I arrange a day for you to take turns fighting my Sheilda with your Zeldas, I'll record it via my Elgato Game Capture HD, and upload it to my channel on YouTube? Then we can all watch it and comment here on how things could have gone differently or what went right. Sound like a plan?

 

[SmashTheCstik]

I don't play online :/ if you live in New England i can probably make a day trip!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I don't play online :/ if you live in New England i can probably make a day trip!

I live on the West Coast so...yeah...

 

[WhiteCrow]

How West are you Dark? I'm trying to get PM up and running on my comp, maybe we can do some netplay research?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

How West are you Dark? I'm trying to get PM up and running on my comp, maybe we can do some netplay research?

I have it on my computer, but I need a GC adapter for it and I need to get Gamebooster up and running.
Like, the coast.

 

[TimeSmash]

This is all awesome knowledge and I will update it at the end of the three week period! Also deciding to put in some useful terms or maybe just a link to ATs, highlighting things such as Recoil Special and the Love Jump so people can be in the know right from the OP.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

This is all awesome knowledge and I will update it at the end of the three week period! Also deciding to put in some useful terms or maybe just a link to ATs, highlighting things such as Recoil Special and the Love Jump so people can be in the know right from the OP.

Random thing: What if you could L-cancel specials?

We should talk about configurations that we use with dins.

 

[Kaeldiar]

This is all awesome knowledge and I will update it at the end of the three week period! Also deciding to put in some useful terms or maybe just a link to ATs, highlighting things such as Recoil Special and the Love Jump so people can be in the know right from the OP.

Love Jump? Are we now jump canceling Nayru's Love? I'm unfamiliar with this one...in the meantime, here's a quick starter

Recoil Special / B-sticking / Wavebouncing from ssbwiki: "A technique that allows a player to jump forward and start a special move while bouncing backwards. To perform a Recoil Special with the B-Stick setup, jump forward and immediately move the C-stick in the opposite direction of travel. "B-sticking" refers to changing the control setup to use the C-stick for special moves. B-Sticking provides a simpler way to perform a Recoil Special. To perform this technique without the c-stick, the player must jump forward, do a special backwards, then immediately smash the control stick or D-pad forward. This will make the character turn twice, and will create the bound."

Teledash: Wavedashing out of Farore's wind. You can only wavedash out of a grounded Farore's Wind, but you can aerial dodge/wavedash at any time after Zelda disappears and before the flame effect while reappearing.

 

[justanull]

Love Jump? Are we now jump canceling Nayru's Love? I'm unfamiliar with this one...in the meantime, here's a quick starter

Recoil Special / B-sticking / Wavebouncing from ssbwiki: "A technique that allows a player to jump forward and start a special move while bouncing backwards. To perform a Recoil Special with the B-Stick setup, jump forward and immediately move the C-stick in the opposite direction of travel. "B-sticking" refers to changing the control setup to use the C-stick for special moves. B-Sticking provides a simpler way to perform a Recoil Special. To perform this technique without the c-stick, the player must jump forward, do a special backwards, then immediately smash the control stick or D-pad forward. This will make the character turn twice, and will create the bound."

Teledash: Wavedashing out of Farore's wind. You can only wavedash out of a grounded Farore's Wind, but you can aerial dodge/wavedash at any time after Zelda disappears and before the flame effect while reappearing.

If you jump out of hitstun and immediately use Naryu's Love, you will Love Jump, maintaining your jump momentum for the entire Naryu's.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Love Jump? Are we now jump canceling Nayru's Love? I'm unfamiliar with this one...in the meantime, here's a quick starter

Recoil Special / B-sticking / Wavebouncing from ssbwiki: "A technique that allows a player to jump forward and start a special move while bouncing backwards. To perform a Recoil Special with the B-Stick setup, jump forward and immediately move the C-stick in the opposite direction of travel. "B-sticking" refers to changing the control setup to use the C-stick for special moves. B-Sticking provides a simpler way to perform a Recoil Special. To perform this technique without the c-stick, the player must jump forward, do a special backwards, then immediately smash the control stick or D-pad forward. This will make the character turn twice, and will create the bound."

Teledash: Wavedashing out of Farore's wind. You can only wavedash out of a grounded Farore's Wind, but you can aerial dodge/wavedash at any time after Zelda disappears and before the flame effect while reappearing.

It's not a wavedash it's a waveland. Watch any of ZHime's matches, he will use it for recovery.

 

[Kaeldiar]

It's not a wavedash it's a waveland. Watch any of ZHime's matches, he will use it for recovery.

No, you can't use it for recovery that way. You can only do it with a grounded FW. As far as what you call it, it doesn't matter. The point is that you can air dodge out of a grounded FW. That means that it FUNCTIONS more like a wavedash than anything else.

 

[TimeSmash]

We should talk about configurations that we use with dins.

This

 

[DarkStarStorm]

This

Well, besides the Zhime Combo, at high damage I set up tunnels of dins so I can't be chased upwards. Any other ideas?

 

[TimeSmash]

Zhime Combo? Please inform me.

If an opponent is for sure KO'ed, especially Star KO'ed, I start setting up big looped Din's in preparation for when the return because even though they still have invincibility we have the option to extend the timer or at the very lease make the opponent deal with them.

I would love love LOVE to start a thread in the general PM boards about what to do in situations like that as a sidebar. Things like Star KO's or those couple seconds when you know your opponent is going to be KO'ed matter, and we should make the most of that time because you actually have a LOT of freedom

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zhime Combo? Please inform me.

If an opponent is for sure KO'ed, especially Star KO'ed, I start setting up big looped Din's in preparation for when the return because even though they still have invincibility we have the option to extend the timer or at the very lease make the opponent deal with them.

I would love love LOVE to start a thread in the general PM boards about what to do in situations like that as a sidebar. Things like Star KO's or those couple seconds when you know your opponent is going to be KO'ed matter, and we should make the most of that time because you actually have a LOT of freedom

ZHime Combo: Dins at ledge, Dins at opposite corner of the map, they roll or go over the dins, you grab, b-throw, into Dins at upper opposite corner of map, blow up, death. *choppy sentence for the win*

 

[WhiteCrow]

It really depends on where your opponent is after a launch. Trying to set up Din's when your opponent isn't in hitstun is like begging to get punished. No Din's placement feels like a guaranteed hit since there are so many variables, but there are safer places to put them. Personally, I like putting Din's at the center of platforms, just below or semi inside the platform. Makes dropping through the platform a non option (if they DI'd up to land on the platform) and it keeps my Din threatening and protected. Level 2 explosions cover most of the platform at this angle when they detonate which is good to know if they stay in shield forever. It also covers below the platform but is easier to disarm if they are on the main stage. I like setting these kinds of Din's after a nair when I can't follow up with a teledash and we're both in the air. Placement also depends on the character you're fighting and how easily they can disarm your traps. If they have a disjointed jab I usually try to keep my Din's off the ground. If they have a projectile I try to make them inconvenient to disarm.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

It really depends on where your opponent is after a launch. Trying to set up Din's when your opponent isn't in hitstun is like begging to get punished. No Din's placement feels like a guaranteed hit since there are so many variables, but there are safer places to put them. Personally, I like putting Din's at the center of platforms, just below or semi inside the platform. Makes dropping through the platform a non option (if they DI'd up to land on the platform) and it keeps my Din threatening and protected. Level 2 explosions cover most of the platform at this angle when they detonate which is good to know if they stay in shield forever. It also covers below the platform but is easier to disarm if they are on the main stage. I like setting these kinds of Din's after a nair when I can't follow up with a teledash and we're both in the air. Placement also depends on the character you're fighting and how easily they can disarm your traps. If they have a disjointed jab I usually try to keep my Din's off the ground. If they have a projectile I try to make them inconvenient to disarm.

I usually set up a Z-combo when they're offstage horizontally.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

You can choose to do a set up but you can also choose to juggle the opponent in the air while they are recovering. It requires really good control of dins and is harder to perform then creating a setup. You could also choose to do a combination of both where you first go with cutting recovery options and then going for the juggle. If you miss the juggle you will still be covered, but if you hit you have the option to continue the juggle. You'll have to choose if you want to continue the juggle eventually at the cost of the loss of your set up, but depending on the situation you may be able to create a setup again before the opponent has recovered to the stage.

 

[TimeSmash]

Switching topics Sunday, hopefully! But keep posting all this great stuff about Din's please. The next topic will be a three-day mini-topic wherein we all post ideas of what to talk about in the future, with ideas being tacked onto the "Idea Board" of the OP, and hopefully maybe even one will be featured right after that! As always thanks for your contributions, and I encourage you all too keep contributing, and find other people (cough cough Zhime ) to post too!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Switching topics Sunday, hopefully! But keep posting all this great stuff about Din's please. The next topic will be a three-day mini-topic wherein we all post ideas of what to talk about in the future, with ideas being tacked onto the "Idea Board" of the OP, and hopefully maybe even one will be featured right after that! As always thanks for your contributions, and I encourage you all too keep contributing, and find other people (cough cough Zhime ) to post too!

@ Zerudahime there now he'll see. (^look up ZHime^)

 

[Zerudahime]

I dont really come here.
for good reasons, but you can check my videos if youd like.

 

[TimeSmash]

Pllleeeeeease @ Zerudahime we would love your verbal input too!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I dont really come here.
for good reasons, but you can check my videos if youd like.

You don't have to worry about us being jerks. All of us here have vested interest in getting better at Zelda, not trash-talking each other. Don't worry, we won't ask about the changes coming to Zelda, all we're interested in here is developing out game. Also @ Zerudahime : when this thread starts talking about Nayru's Love, I have a new AT to share, you will be able to use this alot. It effectively makes Zelda's hard MUs much easier. You know a little about it, but you've never done this that I've seen. I discovered it back in 2.5 and it still works in 3.02. Stay tuned.

 

[TimeSmash]

I feel like this thread has excellent rapport, coupled with the fact that so many of us are in the Zelda social group make the Zelda PM boards a great place to be. I can't say that for the rest of Smashboards, but this is a good place. Free Zen and that jazz

 

[Zerudahime]

You don't have to worry about us being jerks. All of us here have vested interest in getting better at Zelda, not trash-talking each other. Don't worry, we won't ask about the changes coming to Zelda, all we're interested in here is developing out game. Also @ Zerudahime : when this thread starts talking about Nayru's Love, I have a new AT to share, you will be able to use this alot. It effectively makes Zelda's hard MUs much easier. You know a little about it, but you've never done this that I've seen. I discovered it back in 2.5 and it still works in 3.02. Stay tuned.

if its not,
WB Lovejump
sh reversal nayru
nayrus escape
lovejump
FFl nayru cancel
FFL nayru

I dont use it because it probably doesnt really serve a purpose that is viable and usable. all of the above are useful in certain situations but not catch-all enough to purely define a meta based on any ''new'' ATs. The only time something ''new'' would truly be discovered is when it wasnt put there deliberately in which case it would be a glitch.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

if its not,
WB Lovejump
sh reversal nayru
nayrus escape
lovejump
FFl nayru cancel
FFL nayru

I dont use it because it probably doesnt really serve a purpose that is viable and usable. all of the above are useful in certain situations but not catch-all enough to purely define a meta based on any ''new'' ATs. The only time something ''new'' would truly be discovered is when it wasnt put there deliberately in which case it would be a glitch.

It is a left over of Brawl physics that is super useful with certain MUs (Falcon, Falco, Wolf, Olimar, Link, Zelda {any vertical or juggle-prone character). I'll release a video of it being used when the Nayru's topic comes up. What are?:
FFl nayru cancel
FFL nayru
I may know what they are but I just don't know what they're called. How come the Love Jump is on there twice?

 

[Zerudahime]

bc there are different types of love jumping, and FFL is shorthand for fastfall...its when she falls faster down with nayru during the active inv. frames

 

[DarkStarStorm]

bc there are different types of love jumping, and FFL is shorthand for fastfall...its when she falls faster down with nayru during the active inv. frames

Then you'll love my new technique. I've noticed that you use the fast fall a lot. In our convo I'll tell you how to do something unique. Great stream by the way, I didn't know you played Yoshi.

 

[TimeSmash]

This week 3/31/14 is the IDEAS WEEK! Please post your ideas about what to talk about that would be great for Zelda!!

 

[Kaeldiar]

EDIT: Ignore what I said before, if you saw it. Please excuse me while I come up with something useful to use this space for

 

[DarkStarStorm]

This week 3/31/14 is the IDEAS WEEK! Please post your ideas about what to talk about that would be great for Zelda!!

You want an idea? How about this:

 

[TimeSmash]

4/7/2014 we are going to be talking ALL about Nayru's Love, and cool techniques like the Diamond Dive, Love Jump, landcancelling it, and other info about this great move. Frame data is always appreciated

Still editing the Din's Fire topic in the OP, be patient!

 

[TimeSmash]

SO START TALKING! Shameless double post

 

[Downdraft]

SO START TALKING! Shameless double post

Zerudahime's post + DarkStarStorm's Diamond Diving cover all the known advanced techniques.
I'm not too familiar with most of the techniques that he listed.
Could someone briefly explain how to perform each technique and their application?

if its not,
WB Lovejump
sh reversal nayru
nayrus escape
lovejump
FFl nayru cancel
FFL nayru

I dont use it because it probably doesnt really serve a purpose that is viable and usable. all of the above are useful in certain situations but not catch-all enough to purely define a meta based on any ''new'' ATs. The only time something ''new'' would truly be discovered is when it wasnt put there deliberately in which case it would be a glitch.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zerudahime's post + DarkStarStorm's Diamond Diving cover all the known advanced techniques.
I'm not too familiar with most of the techniques that he listed.
Could someone briefly explain how to perform each technique and their application?

Wavebounced Love Jump
Perform the Love Jump as per usual and either DI backwards (what I do) before executing one our b-reverse it to go forwards.

Short hop reversal nayru
Just get the cancel height down and jump then b-reverse Nayru's
Nayru's Escape
Simply using wavebounced Love Jumps to escape combos.
Love Jump
When coming out of a state of KB and hitstun jump and perform Nayru's. You will fly upwards in what's called the Love Jump.
FFl nayru cancel
When you fast fall Nayru's and end up land canceling it.
FFL nayru
Mash b while in hitstun and knockback. Zelda's panic button.
The Diamond Dive:
When coming out of a state of KB and HS, b-reverse Nayru's when you have entered the tumble animation and most momentum is gone.
The Forwards Diamond Dive (simple):
DI away from the point of launch and hit b. You will travel at an angle while in Nayru's. Not as good as the Recoiled Diamond Dive, but easier.
The Recoiled Diamond Dive:
Perform the Diamond Dive but with a Recoil Special, you will travel away from the launch point at a better angle than the simple forwards DD. Not only that, but it is quicker to execute than the simple version.

If I'm wrong: tell me.