Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[4tlas]

Perhaps we could talk about stages? I suppose MUs are covered in other threads but stages don't seem to be covered anywhere. Or we could certainly talk about that after dtilt, just throwing out ideas.

 

[TimeSmash]

Perhaps we could talk about stages? I suppose MUs are covered in other threads but stages don't seem to be covered anywhere. Or we could certainly talk about that after dtilt, just throwing out ideas.

Wow holy crap I honestly never thought about that haha! I think a good way to go would to be to break it down stage by stage (or at least stages we are interested in) and then talk about that.

So what does everyone else think? What stages do you think would be a good discussion??

Stages I can think off the top of my head that are legal are:

Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Yoshi's Story (Melee), Battlefield, Green Greens (Melee), Final Destination, WarioWare (random fact but Utilt on WarioWare is AMAZING), and that is all I can think of at the moment.

 

[standardtoaster]

stickied the thread on request of timesmash

 

[TimeSmash]

YAYYYYYYY! Thanks!! <3

 

[4tlas]

Everyone uses different stages for what is legal, and there is so much to say about each stage. If we go one at a time, we could follow along with the PM subreddit's weekly stage discussion for now? We can go back to the first few later or something.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I think we should stay away from stage discussions since we already have:
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-stage-discussion.351262/
We haven't talked about the tilts or smashes btw. Is d tilt our official talking point this week?

 

[4tlas]

Oh I know this is a little late to respond to, but I'm curious as to how Dolphin netplay handles the transform. What happens if one computer significantly lags behind the other in loading the other character? Internet lag is two-way, but if their computer simply hasn't loaded the data yet, what does it do? Let me LK as a white glowy blob?

EDIT: This was in response to DarkStarStorm saying that load times were cut in half on their PC. Don't know why that got cut from my reply... lol

 

[TimeSmash]

Oh my gosh, I forgot that Zelda stage thread existed. REVIVING NAO

Yeah let's just talk about Dtilt then. It feels so underused! I remember talking about it a while ago, and somebody said something like using Dtilt followed by another Dtilt wasn't optimal. It had something to do with the endlag or something? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

 

[Kitanamonk]

Dtilt?

I am guilty of underutilising Dtilt but I have seen its applicability. Dtilt operates similar to a jab at low percents, it can "jab reset" opponents that zeldas jab can't for several reasons: Her normal jab is multihit and has stronger knockback than Dtilt, characters like Charizard Bowser and DK all get knocked back by the jab as they are big enough to be hit by the more powerful hitboxes of the jab. It's also possible to DI the jab so you wouldn't get reset. Basically, anytime you would want to reset, use Dtilt.

The most common use I have seen is as a setup for killmoves like turnaround Bair(better for lower percents), Fair, Fsmash or Uptilt. This usually requires a lot of % on the opponent (think 90 or more). A great way to remove an annoying stock if the opponent is dodging all your normal attacks. It can also shield poke being such a low hit, but I personally haven't gotten it that much.

It has a spike hitbox at around her knee like Pits or Tinks Dtilt, never used it though.

 

[Arcalyth]

D tilt auto combos into dsmash and utilt, and using it repeatedly modifies the frame speed multiplier such that it becomes slower when used repeatedly. Look for ryoko's guide for more details.

 

[TimeSmash]

THAT is what I was referring to. I can't remember 100% accounting DI, but at low percents Dtilt can lead into a jab if you're so inclined.

 

[Kaeldiar]

A successful d-tilt can lead into nearly anything, but it's punishable if you miss or it gets shielded. Using it twice in a row WILL get you punished, but like I said, it leads into other things very well. The mediocre range and speed is a bit problematic, so it's a bit harder to land than other moves, but certainly not impossible.
I typically go for d-tilt > f-tilt > up-smash/aerial/whatever at low percents.

At kill percents, I LOVE d-tilt > up-tilt, which I have heard called "Face Down Booty Up" in some circles *cough* @otheusrex *cough*

 

[WhiteCrow]

I get a lot of millage out of down tilt in match ups against shorter and crouching characters like Kirby, Metaknight, and Squirtle. Those characters specifically have low crouches, making grabs, jab, un-angled forward tilt, and up smash incredibly hard to land without setups. It's a surprisingly fast poke option, coming out on frame 4, and as stated above, auto combos to down smash and at certain percents up tilt. On weak shields, high percents, and crouch heavy opponents, down tilt can net you the grabs, forward tilts, and dash attacks. It's a solid option out of Teledash waveland back. Oh, and it can edge guard. When Fox is forced to recover with fire-fox from below the edge you can easily throw out of down tilt to set up any edge guard you could ask for without giving Fox the option of SDI>stage>tech (as is the case with down smash).

 

[TimeSmash]

I kind of just thought of something. Ivysaur has mega-problems when it comes to her moves being crouch cancelled, so Dtilt may come in handy against them

 

[4tlas]

I use dtilt a decent amount, but I don't really strategize around it. I suppose when I crouch cancel I use it, and I try to use it when I want to start a combo but I can't grab for some reason and can't afford to take the time to ftilt.

It does shield poke very well, and I can almost always get a dsmash or grab followup, but against a few of the characters with irritatingly fast moves (cough mario bros nair cough) or heavyish characters who asdi down (DAMN YOU LINK AND ROY), I get punished on hit.

I actually don't think its very good against the short characters, as it will hit their shield more often than not. Personally, I often switch to Sheik for those matchups, but I understand this is a Zelda discussion. In that case, I would rather grab (stupid kirby/jiggs duck gah)

If I am SURE it is going to hit, I can immediately short hop back a little and super crit fair people out of dtilt. If you ever land this your opponent will suddenly respect your space. Intimidation ftw. It works on floaties and big/tall characters.

The last thing I might use it for is to edgeguard. CC works very well on some recoveries (Marth plz die) so even if you mistime it you still might get them. I have meteored with it before, but I'm not sure why it doesn't work more often. Can't wait for debug mode!

 

[Kaeldiar]

Something important to know is that the thigh hitbox of d-tilt is a meteor

 

[4tlas]

Something important to know is that the thigh hitbox of d-tilt is a meteor

Oh so that's why it only works sometimes. Usually I space it so I get them perfectly with the toe, which just pops them up. Thanks!

 

[Phan7om]

Quick questions.

How would nayru's be used best in the ditto?
What is your thought on early nayru oos, to where it doesnt look like you came off the ground? Or just nayru oos in general?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Quick questions.

How would nayru's be used best in the ditto?
What is your thought on early nayru oos, to where it doesnt look like you came off the ground? Or just nayru oos in general?

Excellent questions. Since your opponent will know all of your tricks (b-reversed Nayru's, Diamond Dive's, and Love Jumps) I would advise not using Nayru's as much in the ditto. If you whiff it once then you'll get punished hard by a lightning kick, and if you land the Nayru it doesn't net enough damage or positioning to be worth the risk. As usual, if there are Din's in play then it's a very different story since setups are essential for Zelda's KO's, even in the ditto. Also note that if your opponent DI's a land cancelled Nayru poorly it can lead to kicks and up tilt.

I think Nayru's Love OoS is an extremely powerful defensive option that hasn't seen enough use. Those intangibility frames OoS are no joke. The best part about Nayru OoS is that you can b-turn around to change the trajectory that your opponents are sent! With Din's in the air you can turn shielding on a platform into a KO set up, and when you're shielding near the ledge you can turn it into a potential edge guard.

 

[4tlas]

Can Nayru's reflect ownership of Din's? I thought it didn't, or at least not the explosion? Or does it clank it?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Can Nayru's reflect ownership of Din's? I thought it didn't, or at least not the explosion? Or does it clank it?

Nayru's and Din's cannot interact because Nayru's is transcendent, and Din's is not a "projectile" so to speak

 

[flying_tortoise]

Quick questions.

How would nayru's be used best in the ditto?
What is your thought on early nayru oos, to where it doesnt look like you came off the ground? Or just nayru oos in general?

Not sure if proper place for question, but sure.
To add on to the others, when your opponent zelda is using teledash a lot to approach and they are trying to catch you off guard. If you know they will be in range when she reappears, use nayru to catch ur opponent off guard, do it a couple times and it will deter them from abusing that option.

 

[luxingo]

do it a couple times and it will deter them from abusing that option.

And instead, they might learn your strategy and teledash just outside of range so that they can punish you hard with a lightning kick or something else. So I recommend against using it to frequently punish teledash.

 

[4tlas]

So...we haven't done anything here in awhile. How about we talk about some strategies for things other than individual moves? I think we've exhausted all the moves right?

I would suggest talking about strategies for techchases, on and off platforms, but I'm just throwing out an idea.

 

[Kitanamonk]

So...we haven't done anything here in awhile. How about we talk about some strategies for things other than individual moves? I think we've exhausted all the moves right?

I would suggest talking about strategies for techchases, on and off platforms, but I'm just throwing out an idea.

I think this thread is in hiatus because of 3.5 coming round the corner. No one wants to waste their time talking about character specific tech when the characters are changing soon.

 

[4tlas]

I think this thread is in hiatus because of 3.5 coming round the corner. No one wants to waste their time talking about character specific tech when the characters are changing soon.

I hadn't thought of that, and its a fair point. But I think we could still talk about strategy, right? I know that will change too, but spreading ideas gives more perspective for future innovation.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I think this thread is in hiatus because of 3.5 coming round the corner. No one wants to waste their time talking about character specific tech when the characters are changing soon.

So...we haven't done anything here in awhile. How about we talk about some strategies for things other than individual moves? I think we've exhausted all the moves right?

I would suggest talking about strategies for techchases, on and off platforms, but I'm just throwing out an idea.

I don't think there's anything wrong with continuing the discussion, but @ TimeSmash has been pretty busy. We still have some smash attacks we could cover, maybe a tilt or two. I'm sure it'd be easier to edit the final product after we've covered all of Zelda's moves, even if 3.5 makes drastic changes.

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't know why I don't get notifications for this thread more, or maybe I overlook them sometimes. Regardless, I apologize for not updating the topic more continually, as the past weeks have been busy with school, Smash 4, Halloween, and the like. I had two tests last week, two tests this week and two next week. So it's super fun.

I don't think we have talked about DSmash yet, but correct me if I'm wrong. That is honestly a GREAT move though, and pretty underutilized. Why not talk about that?

 

[4tlas]

I haven't been getting notifications for some threads either lately. Hmm.

Anyway, maybe it's just my reaction time + not using the Cstick, but I don't find Dsmash to be fast enough to beat out opponents' fast options. Mostly I use it for good solid edgeguarding when the opponent is going for the ledge and is going to have a tough time sweetspotting but I don't have time to set up Dins. I also use it when I am being continually attacked in close quarters as a "get off me" move. I can usually get one in if I crouch cancel and spam it.

 

[TimeSmash]

Lovely Frame data by Sartron

Subactions
• AttackLw4Start: 1 frame
• AttackLw4Hold: 60 frames*
- Lasts until end or 'Attack' is let go of.
- Can also be skipped if 'Attack' is not held before AttackLw4 begins.
• AttackLw4: 38 framesHitboxes
• AttackLw4: Frames 3-5, 10-13
Hurtboxes
• AttackLw4: Intangibility on bones RKneeJ and RLegJ from frames 3-14.
IASA
• AttackLw4: Frame 31

I didn't know she has intangibility on her during this. Interesting. Also not really related but her arm reverses during the last frame of this move haha

 

[4tlas]

The intangibility explains why it never seems to clank. Also yeah what on earth is with that arm man?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Yeah, so basically how to read that frame data is:
The hitbox comes out on the 3rd frame following the startup (1 frame) and the charge (0-60 frames)

In short, assuming it is uncharged, hitboxes are on frames 4-6 and 11-14
The move lasts 39 frames

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Oh I know this is a little late to respond to, but I'm curious as to how Dolphin netplay handles the transform. What happens if one computer significantly lags behind the other in loading the other character? Internet lag is two-way, but if their computer simply hasn't loaded the data yet, what does it do? Let me LK as a white glowy blob?

EDIT: This was in response to DarkStarStorm saying that load times were cut in half on their PC. Don't know why that got cut from my reply... lol

Sorry to respond so late but I should mention that the transform time on my PC is instantaneous; ergo, it is as fast as the raw animation.

I tend to use D-smash not only as a get-off-me move but also to combo into grounded dins. While it has been quite a while since I've played PM I can say from experience that it can be used to force a gimp opportunity. Many times the opponent will miss the tech and enable me to immediately start placing dins at the ledge for a possible edgeguard. Sorry for the short post, I need to play more PM instead of Smash 4 so I can supply USEFUL information. I'll pop in later to do so.

 

[4tlas]

Sorry to respond so late but I should mention that the transform time on my PC is instantaneous; ergo, it is as fast as the raw animation.

Ok, but what happens to the other player? What if they are running a slow-as-balls computer, so theirs hasn't loaded the other character yet? Are they actually running the game at all, or are you just sending yours to them?

 

[Kaeldiar]

D-smash is an excellent edgeguarder if they recover low, and it's also a great GTFO move. It's a frame faster than Nayru's and is less punishable if it whiffs. Nayru's is a better GTFO move, imo, but d-smash is also very good.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Ok, but what happens to the other player? What if they are running a slow-as-balls computer, so theirs hasn't loaded the other character yet? Are they actually running the game at all, or are you just sending yours to them?

I don't think it works like that. Even if one person has a gaming computer and the other player has a crappy computer if there is lag you both experience the same amount. The only time you would experience something than the other guy is is if you both desync'ed

 

[4tlas]

Ok, so youre saying that the game runs on both computers simultaneously and sends packets both ways to re-sync them? This sounds...suboptimal.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Ok, so youre saying that the game runs on both computers simultaneously and sends packets both ways to re-sync them? This sounds...suboptimal.

Lol well thats just how it runs when I play. The exact details Im not really sure but im sure if u were interested in the info u can look at dolphin's forums

 

[TimeSmash]

This week's topic will be Din's Fire, the new version!! Start discussing!!

 

[4tlas]

We'll certainly have to do this again in a few months after people get used to the move, but here's something to start with I suppose.


Din remains in place after placement for 4 seconds, at which point it explodes and returns to Zelda. The explosion has a large, damaging hitbox with decent hitstun, while the normal wisp/mine has a smaller hitbox that deals less damage and has low hitstun.

DISCLAIMER: The following description was written with prior incarnations of Dins Fire in mind. Writer is not responsible for any injuries, accidents, or losses resulting from user's interpretation of this description.

Pros:
- It comes out super fast at first, so she can place one in her old blind spot midrange super quickly and convert immediately
- fully charged Din's explosion is MASSIVE
- Din can be recalled on command, useful for surprising opponents
- commanded explosion stalls din travel, allowing you to alter the return timing
- transforming can detonate Din
- Din is not entirely useless when clanked, it promptly returns to you, often hitting them
- Clanking Dins or absorbing Dins does not remove the dins, but does remove the hitbox
- Return trajectory can be controlled and secret. It goes either up or down, depending upon the direction it was heading when placed. So if it was going up but you just barely hit down at the last moment, the opponent sees it going up but it will return downward
- Return trajectory can be altered by repositioning Zelda
- Recall animation stalls Zelda
- Placing animation causes fastfall, can be used similar to diamond diving
- Camera keeps Din on screen, so you know where it is
- Din notifies you when it is about to explode
- Din can travel through the stage on return, surprising opponents
- Nobody knows what to do yet

Cons:
- It comes out super fast at first, preventing close placements
- Commanded explosions are pathetically weak
- Return hitbox is very weak
- You can only have 1 din
- Placing a din while you have one out recalls the old one. This is a problem when the Din has gone offscreen, as you have no idea if the Din is still out there or not. Maybe there is a pattern and this will just take getting used to, but for now it is infuriating
- Din placement far away is super slow, making it unable to be used as a ranged projectile
- return trajectory is decided preemptively, therefore inflexible
- Placing causes fastfall, so it cannot be used to aid recovery as easily
- Camera keeps Din on screen, so opponent is reminded of it
- Din notifies opponent when it is about to explode, warning them
- Din may travel through stage on return, offering no zone of control
- placing Din is more rigid, cannot travel straight up or down
- fastfall when placing Din prevents horizontal drifting for approach/retreat during placement
- hitting with dins in any way causes a cooldown on the manual explosion ability
- Absorbing Dins does not remove the Dins, allowing for multiple absorptions under some circumstanes (NEEDS FURTHER TESTING)
- Din is clanked by shield
- Nobody knows what to do yet. This means opponents cannot be predicted and Zeldas are ineffective


I tried to list things in a similar order in both parts, to demonstrate that all pros are also cons and vice versa. A few things are purely pro or purely con, while some of the "pros" or "cons" are really unimportant. I can sort these into a better format later, but I just wanted to get everything written while I remember it.

Edit: added loss of transform detonation to cons
Edit: added cooldown of manual recast to cons
Edit: added uncertainty over loss of transform detonation, lol
Edit: removed loss of transform detonation from cons and added it to pros, as it does detonate
Edit: added Dins clank non-disappearance to pros, as well as possible extra absorptions under cons
Edit: added Dins being clanked by shield to cons. Also added base Dins description, as all of these pros/cons are in relation to the previous Dins, which new players may not have experience with. Also disclaimer for such players
Edit: 3.5 Dins mine fuse is 4 seconds, not 3.