Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[4tlas]

I actually learned about hitlag on the Lucas forums (magnet change). Normally, hitlag is the same for attacker and victim (electric attacks are the exception). However, if a moves hitlag is greater than 1x for the attacker (you can have different values), when it hits a shield it has an interesting effect. Shielding opponents always suffer 1.0x hitlag, so if Zelda suffers more than that, the extra hitlag needs to be factored in shield advantage where it normally wouldn't.

So what you're saying is the hitlag on the supersweetpot was from a multiplier? Why not make it base? Just not doable with Brawl's original mechanics?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Why? I don't know. Hitlag is treated the same for every move (outside of multiplier), same with hitstun, sdi, shield stun, and other things. I think it is good to have things be regular across all moves and having set parameters to make them unique. Just giving a move abnormal behavior is bad for the game, granted Sakarai has had us inherit a few anyways. You could just change the hitlag of the move, or maybe its specifically so its not safe on shield (or tradition).

 

[Kaeldiar]

So what you're saying is the hitlag on the supersweetpot was from a multiplier? Why not make it base? Just not doable with Brawl's original mechanics?

It's plenty do-able. They can freely change hitlag multipliers on any move. If you go through the changes, several characters had those modified (or "un-modified" in some cases).

 

[TheGravyTrain]

It's plenty do-able. They can freely change hitlag multipliers on any move. If you go through the changes, several characters had those modified (or "un-modified" in some cases).

I think he meant to have Zelda's kicks give the shielding opponent the same hitlag as Zelda, rather then 1.0x.

 

[4tlas]

Lets say Lightning Kick has 30 frames of hitlag base. The multiplier is, say, 1.5 for Zelda and for the opponent. When the opponent shields they are stuck in 30 frames of hitlag and Zelda is stuck in 45 frames, right? If one of the objectives for removing the supersweetspot was to remove its extra negativity on shield, why not just make it base 45 frames with a 1.0 multiplier for Zelda/opponent? (these are all example numbers)

I could understand if what they currently have is 30 frames of hitlag for the move, and all they can change for the supersweetspot compared to the normal sweetspot is the multiplier. If that is the case then there is no way to have the supersweet stun without it being extra negative on shield.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I don't know if that's possible, but I would be against that change. Outside the current criteria, shield stun, hitstun, hitlag, sdi, and every other thing like them are universal and the same. I wouldn't approve of just changing how hitlag is calculated for one move. They don't choose a number of hitlag, it follows a set formula. Same with hitstun, shieldstun, and all the others.

I mean, they could just get rid of the extra hitlag altogether, that would be the way they have done these things. Having everything work the same way is better. It is much cleaner (imo).

 

[Kaeldiar]

There was also added shield damage for the critical. I don't know how much that factors into things. @ RyokoYaksa would know more

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Ok, just looked at some 3.02 frame data. 3.02 fair's super sweet spot hits for 22 damage, has 20 frames of shield damage (I don't believe this matters, but someone smart can correct me if it does for shield advantage), a hitlag multiplier of 1.4x, an sdi multiplier of 0x (idk why...), is electric type so the victim on hit (not shield) suffers 1.5x normal hitlag, 9 frames of landing lag (this could actually be wrong, I assume they didn't change landing lag).

So, if a super sweet spot fair hit a shield, here is what happens (assuming the frame after hitlag you land on the ground, so best possible frame advantage, assume in game will always be worse).
First, hitlag. The move did 22 damage, which would normally result in 10 frames of hitlag. The shielding character receives this, but Zelda has a 1.4x multiplier, so she actually receives 15. So the opponent comes out of hitlag 5 frames before us, so we are currently at -5. Next, shield stun and landing lag. Normally, this is all we have to consider for advantage on block. Because we do 22 damage, they receive 11 frames of shield stun. They have 6 frames of stun left when we go through landing lag because of hitlag. Assuming the landing lag is the same as 3.5 (you can't do landing lag in Brawl box because of FSM, so typically its done in frame advance or other methods which I don't really have time to double check), you need to go through 9 frames of lag before you can do any action. They will only be stunned for 6 of these frames, so it puts us -3 on shield in 3.02. If you have ever actually looked into safety on shield, that is pretty good. Still doesn't mean Zelda can pressure peoples shields well because high jumpsquat (-8 just to get airborne, and this is best case safety too). Also she doesn't have a shine...

For 3.5 kick, fair does 19 damage, 1.0x hitlag, 9 frames of landing lag, electric type, sdi of 1.0x (a lot of this is irrelevant...). Since we don't have to worry about hitlag, it does 10 frames of shield stun and 9 frames of lag, so at best we are +1. That is actually really good (not too many moves are positive on shield. Fox nair is +0 on shield iirc, shine is like -3 for fox, only Peach/Mewtwo are positive on shields consistently because of FC/HC). The only issue with this is it assumes you are landing the next possible frame after hit, which is even less likely for a floaty compared to say fox. Fox will be much more likely to get closer to his +0 on shield with nair (if that's right...) because his short hop only lasts 15 frames. I don't recall how long Zelda's last, but because she falls slower, if she hits the top of a shield, her advantage is significantly worse because it takes her longer to reach the ground. A middle of shield kick should be safe on shield because of the distance frame the opponent, forcing them to wavedash OoS and the lag associated with that.

Back on topic, 3.02 kicks weren't that unsafe on shield, just a loss of a couple of frames. Thats why I don't think it is relevant to make special cases when it doesn't really affect all that much. For future reference, any high damage move with low landing lag will be safe on shield (genereally, Falcon Knee, Shiek Fair, Ganondorf Fair) since usually all that is factored in is damage and landing lag. Ocassionally hitlag interferes like with 3.02 kick and 3.02 Lucas magnet (for the better), but these are the exceptions. There were a couple of things that might be incorrect because I don't know if the landing lag was the same or something similar, but all of this should be correct.

 

[4tlas]

I don't know if that's possible, but I would be against that change. Outside the current criteria, shield stun, hitstun, hitlag, sdi, and every other thing like them are universal and the same. I wouldn't approve of just changing how hitlag is calculated for one move. They don't choose a number of hitlag, it follows a set formula. Same with hitstun, shieldstun, and all the others.

I mean, they could just get rid of the extra hitlag altogether, that would be the way they have done these things. Having everything work the same way is better. It is much cleaner (imo).

I'm not sure you understood what I was suggesting. I'm not saying they should separate hitlag from damage (if that's how hitlag is calculated), what I'm suggesting is to increase the hitlag from the supersweetspot by whatever normal method they can (increasing damage?) and reducing the multiplier. Its something to try, at least.

Ok, just looked at some 3.02 frame data. 3.02 fair's super sweet spot hits for 22 damage, has 20 frames of shield damage (I don't believe this matters, but someone smart can correct me if it does for shield advantage), a hitlag multiplier of 1.4x, an sdi multiplier of 0x (idk why...), is electric type so the victim on hit (not shield) suffers 1.5x normal hitlag, 9 frames of landing lag (this could actually be wrong, I assume they didn't change landing lag).

So, if a super sweet spot fair hit a shield, here is what happens (assuming the frame after hitlag you land on the ground, so best possible frame advantage, assume in game will always be worse).
First, hitlag. The move did 22 damage, which would normally result in 10 frames of hitlag. The shielding character receives this, but Zelda has a 1.4x multiplier, so she actually receives 15. So the opponent comes out of hitlag 5 frames before us, so we are currently at -5. Next, shield stun and landing lag. Normally, this is all we have to consider for advantage on block. Because we do 22 damage, they receive 11 frames of shield stun. They have 6 frames of stun left when we go through landing lag because of hitlag. Assuming the landing lag is the same as 3.5 (you can't do landing lag in Brawl box because of FSM, so typically its done in frame advance or other methods which I don't really have time to double check), you need to go through 9 frames of lag before you can do any action. They will only be stunned for 6 of these frames, so it puts us -3 on shield in 3.02. If you have ever actually looked into safety on shield, that is pretty good. Still doesn't mean Zelda can pressure peoples shields well because high jumpsquat (-8 just to get airborne, and this is best case safety too). Also she doesn't have a shine...

For 3.5 kick, fair does 19 damage, 1.0x hitlag, 9 frames of landing lag, electric type, sdi of 1.0x (a lot of this is irrelevant...). Since we don't have to worry about hitlag, it does 10 frames of shield stun and 9 frames of lag, so at best we are +1. That is actually really good (not too many moves are positive on shield. Fox nair is +0 on shield iirc, shine is like -3 for fox, only Peach/Mewtwo are positive on shields consistently because of FC/HC). The only issue with this is it assumes you are landing the next possible frame after hit, which is even less likely for a floaty compared to say fox. Fox will be much more likely to get closer to his +0 on shield with nair (if that's right...) because his short hop only lasts 15 frames. I don't recall how long Zelda's last, but because she falls slower, if she hits the top of a shield, her advantage is significantly worse because it takes her longer to reach the ground. A middle of shield kick should be safe on shield because of the distance frame the opponent, forcing them to wavedash OoS and the lag associated with that.

Back on topic, 3.02 kicks weren't that unsafe on shield, just a loss of a couple of frames. Thats why I don't think it is relevant to make special cases when it doesn't really affect all that much. For future reference, any high damage move with low landing lag will be safe on shield (genereally, Falcon Knee, Shiek Fair, Ganondorf Fair) since usually all that is factored in is damage and landing lag. Ocassionally hitlag interferes like with 3.02 kick and 3.02 Lucas magnet (for the better), but these are the exceptions. There were a couple of things that might be incorrect because I don't know if the landing lag was the same or something similar, but all of this should be correct.

The only comparison that I want to make is 3.02 supersweetspot to 3.02 sweetspot. The argument for removing the supersweetspot was that it hurt Zelda's shield pressure dramatically. This is potentially true if a) the shield hitstun between supersweet and normal sweet is dramatically different AND b) it was impossible to balance both parts of the move simultaneously because of limited mechanics.

Your analysis is glorious to behold, btw

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Which do you want, the normal sweetspot active on the same frame as the critical or the one the next frame?

*edit* In 3.02, there were 3 important "sweetspots". On the first frame of fair (bair might be slightly different), the critical did 22 dmg, more knockback, and extra hitlag. It ended up being -3 on shield. The other strong hit on the first frame does 18 damage, less knockback, bigger hitbox, and normal hitlag. It was +1 on shield because it didn't have extra hitlag (the critical hit would have been +2 if it weren't for hitlag). If you miss the first frame hitboxes, you are stuck with the third "sweetspot" which lasts for the next 3 frames. It does 16 dmg, same knockback as big sweetspot except for what is lost in damage, active longer, and ends up +0 on shield. I don't see how the critical hit was so detrimental to her pressure. Since Zelda is so floaty you could argue that advantage on shield without landing (letting iasa rather then landing lag determine advantage) being more important, but I don't have time atm + nobody really talks about it, so I don't have a frame of reference on what is good/bad. There must have been another reason for removing critical hits because it doesn't hurt frame safety on shield, only by a couple of frames and you can intentionally go for the normal sweetspot since its easier to hit anyways.

As for the hitlag thing, I don't think its feasible. Damage calculates how much hitlag, shieldstun, part of knockback, and thus hitstun as well. They could just let the move have normal hitlag if it is such a big deal. It already has a lot of it because it does a lot of damage. They actually decreased the hitlag when they reduced damage. Maybe a fair trade would be giving critical hits more normal angle rather then that 35 in return for giving you slightly less time to DI (you can't SDI the move at all anyways, so which is normally the reason for extra or less hitlag in multihit moves). *edit*

 

[TimeSmash]

This stuff is marvelous! Should I wait a little longer to change topics, as nothing's been posted since Saturday? Or should I just go ahead and start the next one?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Maybe a fair trade would be giving critical hits more normal angle rather then that 35 in return for giving you slightly less time to DI (you can't SDI the move at all anyways, so which is normally the reason for extra or less hitlag in multihit moves). *edit*

The reason the critical heels had high hitlag before was to allow time to properly DI the hits, not SDI. DI is far more important to surviving a launching blow than SDI is. Shield damage was added partly due to the hitlag increase on shield and to make her have a threatening shield chip game.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The reason the critical heels had high hitlag before was to allow time to properly DI the hits, not SDI. DI is far more important to surviving a launching blow than SDI is. Shield damage was added partly due to the hitlag increase on shield and to make her have a threatening shield chip game.

Ya, I don't really know why that was mentioned their like that, it doesn't make any sense. I was typing that on my phone, so I didn't do too much rereading and proof-reading (as can be seen by a couple other errors, like me saying old kicks did 20 frames of shield damage, saying it had 15 frames of hitlag when it has 14 and thus getting shield advantage off by one, and maybe a few others). The brunt of its correct, but yeah. Interesting about the shield damage. Question, if a move has 0 shield damage, it just means that it does 0 additional shield damage and is handled normally, right? Also, how is shield health handled (like does the stun alone "hurt" the shield by forcing it to decay for that long). I know shields are really confusing things with shield strength, size, health and more.

 

[otheusrex]

Well since we have 2 weeks of kick and no one seems to be continuing the discussion... I've heard a couple people in the skype chat mention that they'd like the 3.5 sweetspot to have the same sfx as the critical did before for that extra satisfaction. Thoughts?

My opinion on the subject is that she might be better off without it since the sfx would draw attention to one of her strengths, which always seem to get nerfed when people notice them

 

[4tlas]

Well since we have 2 weeks of kick and no one seems to be continuing the discussion... I've heard a couple people in the skype chat mention that they'd like the 3.5 sweetspot to have the same sfx as the critical did before for that extra satisfaction. Thoughts?

My opinion on the subject is that she might be better off without it since the sfx would draw attention to one of her strengths, which always seem to get nerfed when people notice them

LOL

A satisfying sound is one that feels powerful. As a powerful move, it is also totally appropriate to have such a sound. Powerful sounds are typically ones that we associate with other powerful things, such as a stroke of lightning or a mighty crash. I loved the Melee "thuum" sound, with the powerful bass. I also loved the critical heel's thunder crackle sound.

I would also happily take D1 yelling "DESTRUCTION"

 

[WhiteCrow]

Have we covered all of her tilts and smashes?

 

[otheusrex]

LOL

A satisfying sound is one that feels powerful. As a powerful move, it is also totally appropriate to have such a sound. Powerful sounds are typically ones that we associate with other powerful things, such as a stroke of lightning or a mighty crash. I loved the Melee "thuum" sound, with the powerful bass. I also loved the critical heel's thunder crackle sound.

I would also happily take D1 yelling "DESTRUCTION"

I'd love an easter egg where if you press a taunt button while kicking or dairing, she laughs evily

 

[Kaeldiar]

I think we're free to move on. Do we want to talk about the Nayru's changes? I think we covered every move during the 3.02 phase (please correct me if I'm wrong), so we should next discuss the biggest changes to moves.

Actually, now that I think about it, have we talked about dash attack? It's actually gained even more utility with the new sweetspot angle.

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't think we talked about dash attack yet but we could also discuss nayrus changes. It's up to you guys because I only have my phone and apex has made me exhausted sorry! Whichever you think is best

 

[4tlas]

We already touched on Nayru's changes even if we haven't said everything, right? I'm just going to start talking about dash attack.

It is very similar to Peach's dash attack, but the 2 hits don't link. It reaches further than her hands so you can just barely hit someone from the tip for a little extra damage if they're about to get out of hitstun/endlag when you can't reach with anything else.

At low percents it can combo into almost anything (lightning kick, neutral air, lightning stomp, jab, ftilt, or another dash attack, depending on DI), but at high percents this move typically just resets to neutral or to a edgeguard. At this point the only way to directly convert off a dash attack is to dash attack them into a Din mine/wisp/explosion, then converting off of that.

Dash attack is TERRIBLE on shield. If they can shield, you should probably only use this if you're behind them, and even then its super risky. If you are trying to use this on a potential shield, try to hit with the very tip at the end of the move, as that simultaneously gives you the least remaining endlag and the biggest distance from the punish.

 

[otheusrex]

We already touched on Nayru's changes even if we haven't said everything, right? I'm just going to start talking about dash attack.

It is very similar to Peach's dash attack, but the 2 hits don't link. It reaches further than her hands so you can just barely hit someone from the tip for a little extra damage if they're about to get out of hitstun/endlag when you can't reach with anything else.

At low percents it can combo into almost anything (lightning kick, neutral air, lightning stomp, jab, ftilt, or another dash attack, depending on DI), but at high percents this move typically just resets to neutral or to a edgeguard. At this point the only way to directly convert off a dash attack is to dash attack them into a Din mine/wisp/explosion, then converting off of that.

Dash attack is TERRIBLE on shield. If they can shield, you should probably only use this if you're behind them, and even then its super risky. If you are trying to use this on a potential shield, try to hit with the very tip at the end of the move, as that simultaneously gives you the least remaining endlag and the biggest distance from the punish.

Seems about right to me! only thing I wanna say in response is that at high percents dash attack sends people into a disadvantageous position above zelda, rather than neutral. So it's a set up for an aerial if not a direct combo. I'd probably say Upair is the best option to go for in that case, with the other aerials only as mix ups.

The other thing about dash attack now is that since her upsmash has a slightly lower angle now, fast fallers can hard di and/or sdi (?) farther to the side than she can ftilt them, which used to be garaunteed up until mid high percents. But Dash Attack now makes up for that allowing you to continue the chain until kill percents. Upsmash is one of the few micro nerfs I actually think is well designed and it works well in conjunction with new dash attack

 

[WhiteCrow]

Zelda's dash attack has a lot of utility but should be used sparingly since it's easy to over commit with. It comes out on frame 6 and and it covers decent distance, making it one of her fastest options when grounded. It's important to understand the knock back of both hit boxes as the one at the tip of her hands is a burst hitbox while the one on her head knocks them straight up. The first few frames of the move have larger hit boxes, giving a little bit more reach when timed correctly. Dash attack is a good followup after forward throw and poorly DI'd down throw, and it can extend combos on spacies of off up throw. And like 4tlas said, it's ass on shield. Mix it up with jump cancelled grabs and running up smashes so it doesn't become a crutch..

 

[Kaeldiar]

It's important to understand the knock back of both hit boxes as the one at the tip of her hands is a burst hitbox while the one on her head knocks them straight up. The first few frames of the move have larger hit boxes, giving a little bit more reach when timed correctly.

^^^^^^
VERY IMPORTANT
Outer hitboxes are Sakurai angle, which essentially just pushes them away. Inner hitboxes are now 88 degrees, which makes combo'ing off them much easier. I'll have more to say about this when it's not 3:30 in the morning

 

[Luis Alonso]

Dash Attacks are good follow-ups if your ftilt or jabs just push the enemy a bit too far for other more favorable followups (like usmash, ftilt, or even lightning kick)

However the ending lag makes it very punishable if an opponent reads the move and counters with a shield. Definitely should be used sparingly. There are better approach options, like Din's Fire or a well-spaced telecancel.

I prefer it when dash attack launches them at a diagonal angle in front of me. I can follow up with another dash attack. But what should I do if my dash attack launches them straight upwards?

 

[Kaeldiar]

I prefer it when dash attack launches them at a diagonal angle in front of me. I can follow up with another dash attack. But what should I do if my dash attack launches them straight upwards?

You can do so much <3 Depending on DI, exact %, and fall speed, you can get kick, grab, f-tilt, another dash attack, up-smash...

I was actually able to use the sweetspot of dash attack to continue my spacie combos. up-throw > up-throw > up-smash > dash attack > up-throw...etc.

 

[TimeSmash]

This week we'll be talking about Zelda's Forward Tilt, Mystic Swipe! I know we were talking about discussing throws, but I'm really surprised we haven't gone over this move yet, as @ Downdraft pointed out.

A neat little thing to do out of Teleport is a pivot Forward Tilt, it's really easy to do.

Here's the changes that I could find that happened to forward tilt in 3.5, taken from @ ECHOnce 's notes from the Song of Time thread. Below that, a quote from the official changelog was also taken

Spoiler

E.C.H.O's notes
ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)

BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)

Official Changelog Notes:

Forward Tilt: -Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes.
-BKB/KBG adjusted.
-Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering.
-Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x.

 

[Prynne]

Ftilt>usmash is probably the great thing ever. Then at higher percents, ftilt>kick. Ftilt> All of your hopes and dreams, essentially. It sets things up incredibly well and is exorbitantly difficult to DI out of, at least from my experience. I'm sure there is a very simple way that I am overlooking, but Ftilt is honestly just so good I haven't noticed one. A well spaced ftilt will almost always lead to something favorable for you.

EDIT: Also, Ftilt is your bread and butter combo starter, if that wasn't clear.

 

[TimeSmash]

Here's some frame data from the lovely @Sartron's thread

0.5x

Overview
Name/LabelSubactionDurationActive HitboxesIASA
Forward TiltAttackS3[Hi,S,Lw]3410-1632

Hitbox Data
Forward Tilt
Hitbox DurationIDSizeDamage (Hit/Shield)AngleKB Units (0/100%)BKB/WDSK/KBGSDI MultiplierClangEffectHitstun (0%/100%)ShieldstunHitlagHit Advantage (0%/100%)Shield Advantage
10-160313/15.4110°75.32/159.3250/0/801xTrueSlash30/6377+9/+42-14
10-1614.2514/19.6110°85.208/152.40865/0/601xFalseSlash34/6087+13/+39-13
10-1622.3410/7361°76.4/160.450/0/1001xTrueNormal30/6466+9/+43-15
10-1633.139/6.3361°74.93/151.9350/0/1001xTrueNormal29/60

 

[4tlas]

Fun fact: ftilt comes out faster than jab. It also reaches really far.

I use this move to space in neutral (threatening to start a combo does wonders in neutral), to shield poke (strike low), and to continue combos. I don't think there's much to say, really. Opponents go behind Zelda if you hit with the tip, setting up for great combos. Tada.

 

[Magus420]

Something to know about the way it combos that isn't obvious is that the 110 angle benefits from the KB stacking mechanics brought over from melee (when the hits are 10+ frames apart the opposing X/Y forces of existing KB vs the new hit are added together and same direction Xs/Ys uses the greater amount) similar to Marth's u-tilt which also has a 110 angle in front.

When hitting with f-tilt by itself with no DI they usually end up slightly behind her, away DI they go up and just slightly towards, but if they DI behind it's significantly harder/unable to combo off of because of how far behind they are sent. When you combo into f-tilt though, if the hit that came before it has them moving away from Zelda, the X KB that's still there gets added to the f-tilt's X KB (since they're opposing directions), making it send closer to a 100 angle, generally putting them directly above with no DI, and similar distances both in front and behind when DIed to the sides.

Also, because it's canceling out some of the KB but still has the full amount of hitstun it combos more easily than a normal 100ish angle would do by itself since they'll have more stun time for the distance sent (kind of like meteor ground bounces but not that extreme).

Say you u-throw Falco and he DIs to the side. F-tilt will combo extremely well here because the slightly outwards KB from the DIed throw cancels out some of the backwards KB of the f-tilt. Same with a dash attack DIed away from Zelda or u-smash DIed to either side. An f-tilt that sends behind her and into a turn around f-tilt as well (but not f-tilt that leaves them in front really since that'd be mostly straight vertical KB or they go too far away to reach with f-tilt).

 

[Downdraft]

F-tilt angled high can punish Captain Falcon and big characters unsafe aerial approaches.
F-tilt angled low seems to work great against the spacies to set up chain U-smashes or U-throws.

If the opponent ends up behind you from an f-tilt low, you can pivot into f-tilt behind you to catch them.
Generally speaking, I'd imagine that you can hit the opponent with some move regardless of where they're sent at low to medium percentages. F-tilt leads into F-tilt, F-air, and U-smash reliably depending on the opponent's location. I'm not sure, but it may be able to lead into B-air, N-air, and U-tilt.

F-tilt can also catch people that DI D-throw or F-throw incorrectly.

My question is does F-tilt still have transcendent priority?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Something to know about the way it combos that isn't obvious is that the 110 angle benefits from the KB stacking mechanics brought over from melee (when the hits are 10+ frames apart the opposing X/Y forces of existing KB vs the new hit are added together and same direction Xs/Ys uses the greater amount) similar to Marth's u-tilt which also has a 110 angle in front.

When hitting with f-tilt by itself with no DI they usually end up slightly behind her, away DI they go up and just slightly towards, but if they DI behind it's significantly harder/unable to combo off of because of how far behind they are sent. When you combo into f-tilt though, if the hit that came before it has them moving away from Zelda, the X KB that's still there gets added to the f-tilt's X KB (since they're opposing directions), making it send closer to a 100 angle, generally putting them directly above with no DI, and similar distances both in front and behind when DIed to the sides.

Also, because it's canceling out some of the KB but still has the full amount of hitstun it combos more easily than a normal 100ish angle would do by itself since they'll have more stun time for the distance sent (kind of like meteor ground bounces but not that extreme).

Say you u-throw Falco and he DIs to the side. F-tilt will combo extremely well here because the slightly outwards KB from the DIed throw cancels out some of the backwards KB of the f-tilt. Same with a dash attack DIed away from Zelda or u-smash DIed to either side. An f-tilt that sends behind her and into a turn around f-tilt as well (but not f-tilt that leaves them in front really since that'd be mostly straight vertical KB or they go too far away to reach with f-tilt).

That's interesting! I've definitely noticed that a straight f-tilt can lead into nothing (particularly against a local Wolf player who knows his MUs and how to DI)

My question is does F-tilt still have transcendent priority?

The tip does. The other hitboxes do not

 

[TimeSmash]

It's interesting to note that Ftilt can be angled. Are there any other unique things you guys have found when it comes to a certain angled hit?

Not exactly related again, but when referring to angles I thought it might help to have a chart to refer to angles. Look at the spoiler images, tell if which one you guys prefer, and I will probably include one in the OP to help with visualizations.

Spoiler

 

[Downdraft]

It's interesting to note that Ftilt can be angled. Are there any other unique things you guys have found when it comes to a certain angled hit?

Not exactly related again, but when referring to angles I thought it might help to have a chart to refer to angles. Look at the spoiler images, tell if which one you guys prefer, and I will probably include one in the OP to help with visualizations.

Spoiler

I prefer the second image. Regarding angles, I'd say that angling low is the most common usage. I didn't start angling high until I read the hitbox and frame data for the attack and understood that the data is the same regardless of the angle, which is pretty cool. By chance, do you know if f-tilt can lead into b-air, n-air, or u-tilt?

 

[TimeSmash]

I prefer the second image. Regarding angles, I'd say that angling low is the most common usage. I didn't start angling high until I read the hitbox and frame data for the attack and understood that the data is the same regardless of the angle, which is pretty cool. By chance, do you know if f-tilt can lead into b-air, n-air, or u-tilt?

You spoilered what you wrote here, fyi hahah. But I have definitely had Ftilt lead into Bair before. It's most likely due to faulty DI, and is probably percentage specific (think, if Ftilt can send them slightly behind Zelda, the knockback scaling would probably make it so they'd be pretty easy to Bair at a certain percent. Correct me if I'm wrong though anyone!). I can't really recall if Ftilt can lead into Nair, but with what Magus said, that being

"When hitting with f-tilt by itself with no DI they usually end up slightly behind her, away DI they go up and just slightly towards"

it wouldn't surprise me if you could link into Nair quite easily by reading/predicting DI. For the first direction mentioned in the quote, you would probably just jump backwards and Nair, and for the second direction you'd probably just (full?) jump and Nair.

 

[4tlas]

So we haven't done anything here in awhile! Also I went and read the OP again after all this time, and I have to say you've done a WONDERFUL job of listing things there! I'm not sure where all the quotes of me came from though...

Can we discuss team strategies next? If we've covered the moveset, of course. And I think we had a different thread for stages? And another for matchups?

 

[TimeSmash]

I wouldn't mind discussing team strategies--this has been dead for a little bit which is partly my fault on account of laziness and school, but I think teams would be an interesting dynamic to cover since nothing seems to pertinent yet.

Some obvious stuff is that with Earthbounders you can do so neat tricks with Din's, letting them absorb it which will trigger its flight path back to you. You can also use it as ammo for Game and Watch's bucket. Just be wary if you're trying to aid someone in edgeguarding with it--it could hit your opponent and even lead to their death if it gets in their way.

Because Zelda has so many moves that would be pretty bad if they hit your teammate, you want to keep your distance from them enough, which is kind of a rule already, but more importantly so with Zelda because a sweetspotted anything or USmash/FSmash could really put them in a bad place.

Din's setups and recalls can lead to some pretty nifty team combos, but can also break another person's combo or kill move. While it's sort of impossible to predict where a teammate will send someone flying a couple seconds later, try to place your Din's accordingly. Because the Din's has small knockback, it can stop someone's trajectory and prevent your opponent's kill! However, at earlier percentages Din's can help continue a combo and break opponent's combos. Don't spam it, but be brave about it and see what works.

This is just theorizing but it would incredible to figure out a Din's height that works for your teammate, much like how Peach has the proper float height when facing some characters. If you placed the Din's at the optimal teammate height they could avoid hitting the Din's but whoever they were facing would have more of a chance of getting hit.

Finally, even though Din's may get it the way, if your teammate can't make it to the edge, you could always throw a Hail Mary Din's and hopefully it hits them, giving them a second chance to recover. Remmeber the explosion has a larger range!!

 

[ECHOnce]

I wouldn't mind discussing team strategies--this has been dead for a little bit which is partly my fault on account of laziness and school, but I think teams would be an interesting dynamic to cover since nothing seems to pertinent yet.

Some obvious stuff is that with Earthbounders you can do so neat tricks with Din's, letting them absorb it which will trigger its flight path back to you. You can also use it as ammo for Game and Watch's bucket. Just be wary if you're trying to aid someone in edgeguarding with it--it could hit your opponent and even lead to their death if it gets in their way.

Because Zelda has so many moves that would be pretty bad if they hit your teammate, you want to keep your distance from them enough, which is kind of a rule already, but more importantly so with Zelda because a sweetspotted anything or USmash/FSmash could really put them in a bad place.

Din's setups and recalls can lead to some pretty nifty team combos, but can also break another person's combo or kill move. While it's sort of impossible to predict where a teammate will send someone flying a couple seconds later, try to place your Din's accordingly. Because the Din's has small knockback, it can stop someone's trajectory and prevent your opponent's kill! However, at earlier percentages Din's can help continue a combo and break opponent's combos. Don't spam it, but be brave about it and see what works.

This is just theorizing but it would incredible to figure out a Din's height that works for your teammate, much like how Peach has the proper float height when facing some characters. If you placed the Din's at the optimal teammate height they could avoid hitting the Din's but whoever they were facing would have more of a chance of getting hit.

Finally, even though Din's may get it the way, if your teammate can't make it to the edge, you could always throw a Hail Mary Din's and hopefully it hits them, giving them a second chance to recover. Remmeber the explosion has a larger range!!

Another thing to consider (theory-crafting here; don't play much teams) is the Din's hitbox going inactive shortly after hitting an opponent or being manually detonated. If it is about to run into your teammate, you guys could decide on the Zelda always detonating shortly before it's about to hit the teammate. That way they (1) won't get hit, and (2) will be able to adapt their comboing/escaping from pressure around that.

Could this be a potential reason to not always cringe at the inactive hitbox killing good setups...?

 

[4tlas]

A quick Dins can be thrown across the stage to interrupt opponent's combos. Depending upon your teammate's character, Dins could also help them with combos or reading their opponent in neutral. Generally this works better with smaller teammates and/or faster teammates (eg.Squirtle, Pikachu, Kirby), but I have also found this to work with hard-hitting teammates (eg.Ganon, Roy). If you play with your partner enough, they'll get used to using your Dins to their advantage. If you are placing the Din at eye-level, you generally want to make sure it curves down and into the stage if you're on the same side as your teammate from the opponent, and up and out of the way if on the opposite side.

Lightning kicks are a godsend in doubles. They start quick so you can instantly punish a mistake, they end quickly so you can immediately return to whatever you were doing, and the precise hitboxes make it easy to hit your opponent without also hitting your teammate. For these reasons, Zelda does great at being surrounded and surrounding opponents. For example, if the field is Opponent->You->Opponent->Teammate, her lightning kicks are so fast that she can simultaneously zone out the left player while making the right side of the field 2v1.

Speaking of 2v1s, I think Zelda is one of the best characters for 1v2ing in the game. I frequently win on a 1v2 comeback. I find it easy to read my opponents in doubles. The positioning and pressure change their mindset, and due to the fact that its so obviously in their favor to win they start playing mindlessly.

 

[TimeSmash]

I just had another thought. Long moves like Usmash (and potentially USmash->USmashf), Down Throw, and Nair, and MAYBE Nayru's keep your opponent in place for a longer period of time due to the properties of those moves. If your teammate is a fast character like Fox this could give them time to follow up off of you since your opponent is basically trapped.

I also think it's a good discussion to talk about when your teammate is getting edgeguarded. What do you guys usually do besides Din's? It's somewhat easy to escape from the guy distracting you using Teleport, but how do you follow up??