*transforms* Hey guys!

[choknater]

Heyyy, choknater here.

So, I've been a pretty dedicated Sheik main since the release of Brawl. I've been hangin' out at the Sheik boards for a while now, along with Gimpyfish, Ankoku, Squidster, Tristan_win, Charoo, and more. We've done a lot for the Sheik metagame and I encourage you Zelda players to press down-B and try out your ninja counterpart!

Ah, but that's exactly the reason I'm here, too!

You see, there are many matchups where Sheik can't win alone. Whether Sheik lacks KO moves or she simply can't handle the superior priority of other close range characters, there are times when Sheik needs to transform, or perhaps just use Zelda altogether!

I'm here because I'm gonna change my main to only Zelda for a while. Whenever I do find myself transforming, I get a little scared that I might be handicapping myself, or not good enough with Zelda to work in that KO. I figure if I completely rework my Zelda game, my playstyle will become a LOT more effective.

Sheik has some beautiful matchups in Fox, Wolf, Falcon, Snake, and more. However, there are certain matchups where Sheik is at a big disadvantage where Zelda would be much better, like Luigi, Peach, and Ice Climbers. And then there's those matchups where the most effective strategy would be to combine the powers of both (Metaknight, anyone?)

So I've come to the Zelda boards simply to learn more and be welcomed, xD. I do have a few questions just to spur some discussion...

1. Sooo, it's not like I don't know anything about Zelda... but since I don't come here often, can someone summarize the general gist of Zelda for me?

2. Who are the best and most informed Zelda players here? I've seen lots of videos of Darkmusician and I used to even talk to him about Melee Zelda back in the day, he's still around right? (Hi Darkmusician! How's Hawaii?)

3. What are some other matchups where I should go Zelda-only? Are there any top/high tier matchups where going Zelda only would be more beneficial than going Sheik?

That's all for now 8)

oh btw I spam a lot x) I hope you see it as an attempt to make the boards more lively

edit: Heh, I've browsed around... I really get this feeling of beauty and elegance... LOL. I hope my avatar is welcome ;D

 

[Oh Snap]

Welcome to the Zelda boards! Learning to play Zelda is a great idea. It's quite painful to watch Shiek users spam Usmash and Fsmash for the kill because they don't know how to use Zelda. If they hit that's great, but most of the time they just get pummeled by the opponent before they can even land a hit with Zelda.

Her ground game is easy to learn, IMO, but you really want to practise her aerials as they require a lot of precision. Someone who can constantly sweetspot her kicks is just..omg..I'm still waiting for that player to arrive! XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay... first off. Let me say that I am so ridiculously happy about the existance of this thread. Kudos for coming to our side Choko. Second of all, let me say I wish more of the so called "Zelda/Shiek" users I hear about would do the same. It's rather painful to see shiek users that only know how to spam Fsmash, Usmash and Din's... just like Oh Snap said. Sheik users, among others, often complain that Zelda has a really one dimensional style of gameplay.... but that's just because the people using her in the Zelda/Sheik videos tend to HAVE a one dimensional playstyle. There is much more to zelda, but the Zelda/Sheik users don't seem to really be familiar with zelda at all. However, this is a step in the right direction.

Now, responding to your responses:
1) General Gist of zelda huh? Well, the uninformed would tell you it's zelda's great defensive game that is the gist of zelda. they'd say to spam Fsmash, Usmash and din's because your oponent has a hard time getting inside of it. And, against certain characters, (Captain falcon, gannondorf and sonic come to mind) that really IS almost enough. However, most of the time zelda can't get away with this, she's too punishable. No what zelda is REALLY about is spacing. She has a few wonderful spacing tools, and most of her moves have very specific ranges at which they are the most effective. Playing zelda is all about conciously spacing against your opponent and knowing which moves he has compared to which moves YOU have. knowing which moves are safe when, and using the best move for the situation. Zelda is a PAIN to get inside, but she's easy enough to figure out if you just try to camp. It's about being a fortress, but a fortress that moves.
Zelda has an incredible anti-air-to-ground game in the form of Usmash and has tremendous killing power on almost all of her moves. But she has blindspots at all of her diagonals when airborne, so she's not much about aerial dogfighting. But, if she encounters other characters with less than stellar air games (snake and iceclimbers come to mind right away) she has SCARY killing power. She has some scary of the edge options, but she's also got a fairly punishable recovery, so she's not about edgeguarding TOO agressively.... know your limits.
Zelda is not about comboing... she has some combo options, but they are few. She's more about wracking up damage with her up and forward smashes, her tilts are good enough for KOs most of the time

2) There are a lot of us who are fairly well informed. But rather than post a list about that. I'll say that Ryoko Yaksa is the Zelda user that I would trust above all others with information about Zelda... if only he was on more often.

3) Hrmmm... this is tough to answer because it's all about being comfortable with the matchups... but, that having been said, Zelda completely ***** the ice climbers and DDD. A lot of us who aren't comfortable enough with sheik tend to use Zelda alone vs. MK because at least we can try to keep him away with Zelda. Against an other zelda... it can cause a lot of problems if you try to use sheik against her too.

 

[Villi]

It's useful to know which characters you can hit with a rising bair (as short as Toon Link). Shorter characters you can hit with FF fairs, bair -> fair, fair -> bair, double bairs. Dtilt sets up for LKs as soon as it starts knocking chars into the air, ftilt sets up for bair at low percents when it knocks them behind you.

Zelda can jump out REALLY far to edge guard. I would suggest not using your double jump off stage, though. Dsmash is the best spike setup ever. An up air is good to mix in with your edgeguards especially if they're trying to avoid a spike. Don't underestimate the killing power of a nair off stage; just make sure that you hit them with the front of your hitbox or you'll send them behind you.

I find that her most useful moves out of shield are bair, jump canceled up smash, nair, and dsmash.

Dthrow allows for some follow-ups because it has low knock back growth and usually knocks them upward when they're trying to DI away from Zelda's front, e.g., when her back is to the edge.

Dtilt locks and trips at mid percents. Dair trips at high percents.

Nair and dair both auto-cancel as soon as their hitboxes are finished. You can buffer other attacks out of these moves if you fast-fall and auto-cancel. Buffering attacks out of her air dodge also works; it seems to last a long time and is decent at getting around opponents.

Zelda is pretty vulnerable to juggles, so if you're having a hard time landing don't forget you can Farore's Wind out of their reach sometimes. Naryu's Love has a fast start-up, but is pretty punishable. It's worth noting that it will always send opponents in front of Zelda so a b reveral at the right time is a good way to throw someone off stage, you could also use if after a fair cross-up if you weren't timing it so that you could perform a bair.

Zelda has nice tilts. Up tilt kills at pretty low percents. Ftilt comes out reasonably fast/faster than fsmash. Dtilt rulz.

Don't spam Din's.

 

[GodAtHand]

Welcome!
Everything useful that I could say has already been said!

 

[RyokoYaksa]

There are only a few matches where I go Zelda only:

Jiggs - Transforms get punished by Rollout
ROB - Zelda has an answer to just about all his moves, and can kick after blocking Dsmash
Kirby/Pika - their dthrow combos on Sheik are deadly. Start as Zelda, use Sheik only if you have significant damage.
Peach - depends on player
Lucario - depends on player. I find Zelda to deal with getting inside his range a lot easier.

 

[choknater]

Hmmm... thanks everyone, it's all quite helpful.

I'm gonna smash with some friends today and I'll come back with more questions... that's if I actually need more help xD. I probably will, no worries.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Hey choknater! I hope this isn't too much of spam, but i normally Lurk on alot of the discussion threads, and I had no idea you played sheik XP

: ) you are very welcome here,

*puts on his lurking cloak again*

 

[LordoftheMorning]

It's rather painful to see shiek users that only know how to spam Fsmash, Usmash and Din's

This puts me in the same boat with the poster. Stellar shiek and =/ zelda

 

[HipsterKid]

I'm not so much here to give advice because there are obviously people who have done that.
However, I am here to lend another option to how you all contact some people.
There was once a thriving Zelda clan here on the Boards called Hylian Hellfire. Although it's thread and forum really aren't lively anymore, there is a chatbox where several of the remaining members, as well as a few other nonmembers. Zelda knowledge is very abundant there :] Anyone's welcome to use this link to visit the chat, considering the clan isn't very important anymore.

Link to the Forum (you will be prompted to create an account. Do so if you'd like): http://z9.invisionfree.com/Hylian_Hellfire/index.php?act=idx
Direct Link to the Chat: http://xat.com/chat/room/35333112/

You can also find other Zeldas (as well as every other character, Haha) in that chatroom. Use it if you'd like or need to!

[I'm clan owner so technically it's not selling out the clan, just advertising. ;P]

 

[Darkmusician]

Heyyy, choknater here.

So, I've been a pretty dedicated Sheik main since the release of Brawl. I've been hangin' out at the Sheik boards for a while now, along with Gimpyfish, Ankoku, Squidster, Tristan_win, Charoo, and more. We've done a lot for the Sheik metagame and I encourage you Zelda players to press down-B and try out your ninja counterpart!

Ah, but that's exactly the reason I'm here, too!

You see, there are many matchups where Sheik can't win alone. Whether Sheik lacks KO moves or she simply can't handle the superior priority of other close range characters, there are times when Sheik needs to transform, or perhaps just use Zelda altogether!

I'm here because I'm gonna change my main to only Zelda for a while. Whenever I do find myself transforming, I get a little scared that I might be handicapping myself, or not good enough with Zelda to work in that KO. I figure if I completely rework my Zelda game, my playstyle will become a LOT more effective.

Sheik has some beautiful matchups in Fox, Wolf, Falcon, Snake, and more. However, there are certain matchups where Sheik is at a big disadvantage where Zelda would be much better, like Luigi, Peach, and Ice Climbers. And then there's those matchups where the most effective strategy would be to combine the powers of both (Metaknight, anyone?)

So I've come to the Zelda boards simply to learn more and be welcomed, xD. I do have a few questions just to spur some discussion...

1. Sooo, it's not like I don't know anything about Zelda... but since I don't come here often, can someone summarize the general gist of Zelda for me?

2. Who are the best and most informed Zelda players here? I've seen lots of videos of Darkmusician and I used to even talk to him about Melee Zelda back in the day, he's still around right? (Hi Darkmusician! How's Hawaii?)

3. What are some other matchups where I should go Zelda-only? Are there any top/high tier matchups where going Zelda only would be more beneficial than going Sheik?

That's all for now 8)

oh btw I spam a lot x) I hope you see it as an attempt to make the boards more lively

edit: Heh, I've browsed around... I really get this feeling of beauty and elegance... LOL. I hope my avatar is welcome ;D

Yeah I'm still here. Sup man! =D
Hawaii is awesome. (come visit me :] )

 

[choknater]

Haha yay, okay! If I ever go to Hawaii I'll be sure to smash it up down there. I remember playing two guys named Racer X and Laozy (sp?) back at OC3 in pools, that was fun. I went 1-1 with both of them.

Anyway, to everyone: Hm... I haven't had much time to practice with just Zelda yet, but I'm having a lot of trouble. My sheik style is ruthlessly aggressive and it's hard not to fall into my approaching habits. I know Zelda is a lot about positioning, match control, and ACCURACY (jeez, sweetspotting stuff is hard...) and I'm having a lot of trouble with characters that are too fast for me. Wario, Lucario, MK obviously, Diddy Kong, G&W, the list goes on. What do I doooo!

I need to seriously check out the other threads lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay. Ninjalink's zelda matches against rykoshet's ike are a nice place to start. I know you probably won't be able to do that stuff right away, but he's got the best Zelda I've ever seen. Look at how he controls the flow of the match. look at his raw agression and deliberate spacing.

really, what it'll take for you to get down Zelda is to forget about sheik for a while. At least, in my opinion, you need to be able to play both zelda and sheik on their own before you can combine the two.

just get down the timing, effects and range of her moves, as well as her sweetspots. Once you get that down, you should be able to figure out what moves you can use when... little to none of Zelda's moveset is redundant, so, learn to use all of her attacks depending on the situation.... I know the advice is general.... but so was the request.

 

[goodkid]

Zelda is mostly about precision, control, & waiting/baiting.

Precision-obvious, learn the sweetspots
Control- Don't be too aggressive w/ Zelda, she'll get ***** that way. Don't attack everytime you see an opponent coming or everytime you get into a bad position, but thats pretty obvious though.
Waiting/Baiting- Zelda isn't a very mobile character, and her moves punish really well, so learn how to bait & be patient.

For tricks & general gameplay:

1) make sure your kicks unpredictable or make sure it leads into something better like double bair in one short hop! you can also fair & miss their shield on purpose, then Nayru/Bair/Nair

2) learn to use d-tilt- d-tilt doesn't really lock, and it leads into a lot of moves: grabs/u-tilt at high%/running-upsmash

3) learn to use up-B. I can't believe how many times I lost my matches, because I missed the ledge or put myself in a bad position. Check out the guide for more reference

4) check out the video thread! Zelda has some cool techniques that she can use to surprise the opponent. The techniques are not that useful, but there still a good shock. Whats really useful is Teleport Cancel, which leads to aerial kills at the ledge, edgehogs, its really something every serious Zelda user should learn.

Good luck w/ learning Zelda choknator, she's really a great underused character, has long-lasting moves, awesome KO power, and a lot of potential.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda is mostly about precision, control, & waiting/baiting.

Precision-obvious, learn the sweetspots
Control- Don't be too aggressive w/ Zelda, she'll get ***** that way. Don't attack everytime you see an opponent coming or everytime you get into a bad position, but thats pretty obvious though.

as long as you aren't blindly greedy, I support an agressive Zelda.

Waiting/Baiting- Zelda isn't a very mobile character, and her moves punish really well, so learn how to bait & be patient.

she CAN be very mobile. I think her offensive game is severely underrated.

For tricks & general gameplay:

1) make sure your kicks unpredictable or make sure it leads into something better like double bair in one short hop! you can also fair & miss their shield on purpose, then Nayru/Bair/Nair

2) learn to use d-tilt- d-tilt doesn't really lock, and it leads into a lot of moves: grabs/u-tilt at high%/running-upsmash

3) learn to use up-B. I can't believe how many times I lost my matches, because I missed the ledge or put myself in a bad position. Check out the guide for more reference

4) check out the video thread! Zelda has some cool techniques that she can use to surprise the opponent. The techniques are not that useful, but there still a good shock. Whats really useful is Teleport Cancel, which leads to aerial kills at the ledge, edgehogs, its really something every serious Zelda user should learn.

Good luck w/ learning Zelda choknator, she's really a great underused character, has long-lasting moves, awesome KO power, and a lot of potential.

I would not recomend teleport cancel. Not that it's not a nifty technique to know how to do. But it's not "really useful". It's a situational technique that it's nifty to know that you CAN use, but you're lucky if a legitimate time to use it shows up even once in a given match.

 

[goodkid]

as long as you aren't blindly greedy, I support an agressive Zelda.
she CAN be very mobile. I think her offensive game is severely underrated.

I would not recomend teleport cancel. Not that it's not a nifty technique to know how to do. But it's not "really useful". It's a situational technique that it's nifty to know that you CAN use, but you're lucky if a legitimate time to use it shows up even once in a given match.

Zelda can be aggressive, and when I played her that way, I did pretty well for a while, until I learned to be more patient. Then I did 2X better being more observant/patient. If you can observe well and be aggressive & patient at the same time, then do whatever works for you. If your learning how to use Zelda for the first time, I would recommend to play her safe/patient just so you can learn the opportunities to be aggressive. I just can't think that well playing aggressive.

TP cancel is good learn, there won't be many times to use it in a match, but learning it still helps w/ the precision Zelda needs. It can ledgehog, lead to aerials, it actually has a lot of potential, & if you practice with it more, you'll see what I mean

 

[choknater]

I know what yall mean by aggressiveness and deliberate spacing. What NL was doing with Zelda? Running up and shielding, which is one of the best approaches in Brawl with any character. Zelda can punish REALLY hard from her shield... I use both DDD and IC's, so I get what you guys are trying to say.

Aiming teleport is hard but I can do it lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I know what yall mean by aggressiveness and deliberate spacing. What NL was doing with Zelda? Running up and shielding, which is one of the best approaches in Brawl with any character. Zelda can punish REALLY hard from her shield... I use both DDD and IC's, so I get what you guys are trying to say.

Aiming teleport is hard but I can do it lol.

sixteen directions!!! O.o

 

[SinkingHigher]

sixteen directions!!! O.o

Besides the original eight, you'll only ever need North-Northwest or North-NorthEast. The others are just for flash.

A lot of people seem to spaz out and FW at the soonest opportunity when recovering. Just move Zelda away from the stage and then FW Northeast or Northwest. Causes a lot less suicides.

Edit:

Chok, I found a picture for your original post.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

O.o excuse moi?

if you are telleporting while grounded, depending on your location, W, WSW, SW, SSW, S, SSE, SE, ESE and E can all be useful and allow for precise placement... and if there are platforms, any of the northern directions can also become a viable option.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'm thinking about adding zelda to my game too choknatorrrrrr to bad she's so dumb though

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i'm thinking about adding zelda to my game too choknatorrrrrr to bad she's so dumb though

oh yes, she's tremendously ignorant. you should probably share some of your wisdom with her.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

well aren't you just full of wit - zelda is a horribly boring pile of "i have priority but i can't move". she has no combo game she has almost no flash of any kind and the general feel of the character is boring and stale.

basically

she's dumb.

 

[-Mars-]

well aren't you just full of wit - zelda is a horribly boring pile of "i have priority but i can't move". she has no combo game she has almost no flash of any kind and the general feel of the character is boring and stale.

basically

she's dumb.

*Sigh* How many times must I defend Zelda against the claims of her being slow? dsmash, dtilt, Naryus, nair are all extremely fast on the startup times. Dtilt combos into almost any move in her arsenal and it's hard to shield grab dtilt, you can chain upsmashes on fastfallers and heavies, dair can trip at higher percentages and can lead into lightning kicks...........I can go on if you want?

If sweetspotted aerials(fair, bair, dair) and teleport cancelling isn't flashy and is boring ,then flash must mean something different in your dictionary.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

having a few fast moves does not make your character fast

also lol@sweetspotting a move being flashy

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

having a few fast moves does not make your character fast

also lol@sweetspotting a move being flashy

Zelda isn't combo oriented if that's what you're going for with "flashy"

she's certainly on the lower end as far as mobility and speed are concerned, but she's not horrid.

the best zelda's are MOVING walls of priority though, so the "I can't move" comment is misplaced.

 

[-Mars-]

having a few fast moves does not make your character fast

also lol@sweetspotting a move being flashy

She's not fast, but she is certainly not "slow". I would like to know what Mr. Gimpys definition of "flash" is then.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'm pretty sure she is definitely a slow moving character- not being the slowest character in the game doesn't make you fast it just makes you not the slowest

 

[Lingy]

Just because she has a different gameplay from what you like doesn't mean she's bad.

And yes, reality check, you are not that big of a deal.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i'm pretty sure she is definitely a slow moving character- not being the slowest character in the game doesn't make you fast it just makes you not the slowest

DDD's slow and he's mobile. Slower than zelda.

it's not about speed, it's about mobility... and Zelda does NOT just sit there... at least, not good zeldas. She might not move exceptionally quickly, but she DOES move.

 

[-Mars-]

Character - Horizontal Air Speed

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

I couldn't find anything on her overall speed, but in the air, she's actually pretty quick side-to-side.

Her run speed isn't fantastic, but it's certainly not one of the worst in the game. You combine this with her air speed and all of the fast attacks she has and you can be very quick with Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Her run speed isn't fantastic, but it's certainly not one of the worst in the game. You combine this with her air speed and all of the fast attacks she has and you can be very quick with Zelda.

it's the second slowest: above Jigglypuff but tied with DDD... but, unlike DDD, she has air speed.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Just because she has a different gameplay from what you like doesn't mean she's bad.

And yes, reality check, you are not that big of a deal.

where did i say she was bad? I'm not saying she's bad - if she was bad why would i be saying i wanted to potentially add her to my sheik game?

and who are you? seriously - i love it when randoms burst into the scene and think they know anything about anything - glad you apparently know all about me.

 

[-Mars-]

it's the second slowest: above Jigglypuff but tied with DDD... but, unlike DDD, she has air speed.

Well you learn something new everyday, I still don't think that has much to do with how fast she can be played as a character.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

where did i say she was bad? I'm not saying she's bad - if she was bad why would i be saying i wanted to potentially add her to my sheik game?

you say what you say for a rise sometimes... why else would you come onto a Zelda board and say zelda is stupid?


also, to everyone, in case you haven't noticed a potentially productive thread has just been derailed arguing with gimpy over silliness <_<

just drop it. if gimpy doesn't like zelda, let him not like zelda. his loss.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

because zelda IS stupid lol

man i'm so done with this topic it's incredible lol

 

[Cyndi]

Zeldas always beat me when I play Bowser >>; I hate fighting her.

 

[Lingy]

zelda is a horribly boring pile of "i have priority but i can't move". she has no combo game she has almost no flash of any kind and the general feel of the character is boring and stale.

Do those qualities not add up to being a bad character? Why are you trying to add her to your sheik game if she obviously seems like a dull, slow, non-combo capable character? Sheik has that to offer, no?

Oh, and what's your definition of a 'random'? I suppose it would be random if I just logged in after a year of inactivity and pinpointed your post, but that's not the case. Also, your "anything about anything" statement is why I replied to you -- because you think you know anything about anything about Zelda, but obviously you don't.

 

[-Mars-]

because zelda IS stupid lol

man i'm so done with this topic it's incredible lol

Lol, your job is to moderate spam and you pretty much spammed the topic to nothing

 

[Eggz]

lol zelda is so dumb
how could you main her lol