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Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

Wonderf

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Dedede has lots of range with his f-tilt and u-tilt, a fast d-tilt, powerful smashes and can take a whole lot of hits.
But he and most of his moves are slow, so just keep your distance with your slingshot and punish any move he doesn't hit you with. Plus, pocket his gordo, it will bring him pain later.
 

Sonsa

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I just noticed how many problems I have with the :4dedede: matchup. Any tips?

I know not to challenge him on the ledge but the strenght of his attacks, the maneuravility and the gordos is what gets me. He survives to high percents and I can't kill or rack up damage.
Well racking up damage shouldn't be an issue, you should really, and no shame in it, just repeatedly pester him with foward air. Over and over, short hop fair. It'll add up, send gordos back, and force him to approach. He'll start-jumpin, but his horizontal aerial mobility is weak, don't be intimidated. Keep your space, which isn't that far or hard to manage, and you'll be invincible.

His only real option at that point is to hurl a gordo from the air down at you, but I suggest pocketing that and maybe just throwing it away and getting back to work. You can hurl it at him or save it (but risk dealing with more gordos with full pockets) but a reflected pocketed gordo is a one-hit KO...so yknow...try not to die.

He doesn't really have that much momentum, but he can get the advantage with just one big attack so when you get hit, SO if you get hit: nair and follow up maybe, but usually just get outta there.

Your tree can shield you from gordos and help you pocket them easier too if ya really want one.

Killing can be challenging, but punishing Dedede's up-b back on stage with a ridden gyroid really ain't a bad way to go.

Just stay focused, keep up the pressure, and space appropriately. Don't panic, you have a really nice advantage here.
 
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Sonsa

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Ah, I'll re-write Villager vs Fox there, but still think it's about 55:45 for Villager.

But I've also been meaning to post about Villager vs Falco for a while, sorry!

Villager vs Falco :4villager::4falco:

I don't have as much experience as I want but I had some matches with a fine Falco player, a pretty long set, he was a more defensive player. Near the end he approached more which led to even more wins for me. But in the beginning he waited for me to approach and used lazers if I didn't want to. All in all this matchup takes a looooooot of patience... it's not very entertaining. Villager needs to jump around throwing gyroids and slingshots and ready to punish while Falco needs to reflect, lazer, or punish accordingly and you both just wait for the other to mess up basically.

If Falco reflects when you're too close, that's your punish and awesome, go get em tiger. But Falco might shield instead and that's why you don't want to overcommit, he has nice shield grab follow-ups and a pretty good jab. I still think ours is better since we can quit whenever whereas Falco can often eat some punishes if we DI correctly or shield. It's not that hard to DI out of, so go for that.

Of course you can repocket anything reflected at you which is good as pocketing Falco's lazers is useless. His reflector is still great to bait and punish so don't let up on the pressure. Ah, also our tilts are better than his and out range them I believe.

As for edgeguarding each other, if Falco has to use his Fire Bird or whatever, act quick and take that stock easy. Most of the time he'll phantasm to the ledge sadly, it can be punished, but the window is awkward. If he goes on stage ya predict and punish that easy. If he recovers high, that can also be punished, but you'll probably still reset to neutral.

Other way around, try to recover low, you don't want to face his back air, up air, or even a high down-air spike. Watch out as Falco can dip down and finish you off with a forward air so airdodge correctly and you could actually steal his stock with down-air, nair, or whatever else. Just be careful with setting up gyroid, they aim to go through the start up and get you while you're that close to the blast zone.

So yeah, you're mostly ganna kill with bury to up-smash, nair carrying gimps, or dair. He's ganna try and get ya with aerials, smashes, or a down-tilt at real high percents. Nair carrying is really nice and effective against Falco, I wish I should show a clip...I'll hopefully have a capture card in a few days.

Anyway: 50:50, even, we agreed on. I thought Villager had a slight advantage and still sorta do, but it's pretty darn close to even so I just agreed to that. Villager has better set ups and all, but I guess Falco has better punishes? Eh. Just be patient.
 

RAzul

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Anything new to repost for the ROB and Sheik MU?
 

Veen.

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Nair is always a good choice. It has good priority and lets you create some space between you and your opponent.
 

RAzul

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I hate ROB. I don't get why people say ROB is an easy MU for Villager.
He's definitely not. Just cuz you can keep the gyro means Jack, though it helps. It's a pain cuz he's so heavy. We CAN hit him a lot but it's about sealing the deal. I just wish we had a few more or one more reliable kill option. Guess that's the downfall of having the beat recovery. Whatever.
 

Wonderf

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If they are already in your face, yeah Nair is the best choice or Dair if you are being juggled in the air. If they aren't in your face yet, just short hop Fair, if the Fair connects pull out a lloid, if not Fair again:)
 

AnchorTea

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If they are already in your face, yeah Nair is the best choice or Dair if you are being juggled in the air. If they aren't in your face yet, just short hop Fair, if the Fair connects pull out a lloid, if not Fair again:)
His Nair can cancel the fair.
 

Antonykun

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are people really having trouble with rob?
probably online giving issues

Rob is tall, heavy, and lacks a quick get off me move. You beat him in neutral once you pocket the gyro and bait the laser and you win up lose due to N-air. His recovery is very passive and susceptible to N-air. The only reason why this MU isn't Dedede levels of Free are those fire aerials, namely N-air. He gets very low cooldown once the move comes out meaning if the move is out you can't challenge it. Here's the kicker "IF", with N-air and Turnips/Slingshot he barely gets any opportunities to do a n-air (granted when he does he just resets to neutral.) the big thing about Rob is not letting him breathe and when he does get to breather make sure you are all the bum flip over there so he has to get you.
 

AnchorTea

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are people really having trouble with rob?
probably online giving issues

Rob is tall, heavy, and lacks a quick get off me move. You beat him in neutral once you pocket the gyro and bait the laser and you win up lose due to N-air. His recovery is very passive and susceptible to N-air. The only reason why this MU isn't Dedede levels of Free are those fire aerials, namely N-air. He gets very low cooldown once the move comes out meaning if the move is out you can't challenge it. Here's the kicker "IF", with N-air and Turnips/Slingshot he barely gets any opportunities to do a n-air (granted when he does he just resets to neutral.) the big thing about Rob is not letting him breathe and when he does get to breather make sure you are all the bum flip over there so he has to get you.
You do realize that your opponent can adapt to the nair and just dodge right?
 

Antonykun

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You do realize that your opponent can adapt to the nair and just dodge right?
you do realize that you can bait these dodges and punish them with something even better like an ax or even a grab
 

AnchorTea

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you do realize that you can bait these dodges and punish them with something even better like an ax or even a grab
So I have to set up a tree (which takes long and is punishable) then use an axe, or a grab. Even though Villager's grab is wonky, slow and punishable.

Two very punishable tactics I wouldn't recommend on a character that has a ridiculous U-Smash.

Ok then.
 
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Antonykun

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So I have to set up a tree (which takes long and is punishable) then use an axe, or a grab. Even though Villager's grab is wonky, slow and punishable.

Two very punishable tactics I wouldn't recommend on a character that has a ridiculous U-Smash.

Ok then.
ok fine lets go through how villager can deal with dodges by using "To n-air or not to n-air"
spot dodge (first of all sheild would be better than dodges against n-air because of OOS grab and jump canceled up smash): empty hop
forward roll: Slingshot (n-air if he land really close to you)
back roll: congratulations you got space, if thats not good enough try a slingshot
airdodge: Turnips, Ax

Now if you are talking about them dodging while you are n-airing that is not Villager vs Rob but rather Anchor Tea vs His opponent this is the spirit of mind games

Now slight mini rant on why Rob is a pain on online (this is not meant to add to the MU discussion)
You know how Rob's nair is really good if its out? well in online lag there is very little time to react to his n-air and even less time to react to what he'll do afterward. Same goes for his laser which are relatively easy to pocket from a long distance are now a borderline unreactable projectile like I lost against a Rob like 8 times with both Villager, Pikachu, AND Little Mac (granted LM was because i was desperate for a win) not because Villager or Pikachu loses to Rob but rather because I have very little answers to N-air when there was so much delay
 

AnchorTea

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ok fine lets go through how villager can deal with dodges by using "To n-air or not to n-air"
spot dodge (first of all sheild would be better than dodges against n-air because of OOS grab and jump canceled up smash): empty hop
forward roll: Slingshot (n-air if he land really close to you)
back roll: congratulations you got space, if thats not good enough try a slingshot
airdodge: Turnips, Ax

Now if you are talking about them dodging while you are n-airing that is not Villager vs Rob but rather Anchor Tea vs His opponent this is the spirit of mind games

Now slight mini rant on why Rob is a pain on online (this is not meant to add to the MU discussion)
You know how Rob's nair is really good if its out? well in online lag there is very little time to react to his n-air and even less time to react to what he'll do afterward. Same goes for his laser which are relatively easy to pocket from a long distance are now a borderline unreactable projectile like I lost against a Rob like 8 times with both Villager, Pikachu, AND Little Mac (granted LM was because i was desperate for a win) not because Villager or Pikachu loses to Rob but rather because I have very little answers to N-air when there was so much delay
So I bait the dodge with a nair? (Which happens like 30% of the time)

What about the landing lag? What if the opponent moves before you can act? You can't just punish a dodge that easily.
 
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Antonykun

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So I bait the dodge with a nair? (Which happens like 30% of the time)

What about the landing lag? What if the opponent moves before you can act? You can't just punish a dodge that easily.
more like bait the dodge with threat of nair rather than nair itself.
This is getting more into general gameplay as opposed to matchups but w/e; Defensive options like shields do beat nair but as long as you keep yourself from being difficult to read (didn't you say this was a problem a while ago?) by mixing up your options an empty hop into jab is just as threatening as as a nair because of how fast both moves are with their rewards. If you empty hop and they roll you have the frame advantage allowing you to keep up the pressure with what ever move you want. This is all necessary in being able to read the opponent

So i guess my big point with nair is that it is threatening because of frame traps/baits
 

AnchorTea

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more like bait the dodge with threat of nair rather than nair itself.
This is getting more into general gameplay as opposed to matchups but w/e; Defensive options like shields do beat nair but as long as you keep yourself from being difficult to read (didn't you say this was a problem a while ago?) by mixing up your options an empty hop into jab is just as threatening as as a nair because of how fast both moves are with their rewards. If you empty hop and they roll you have the frame advantage allowing you to keep up the pressure with what ever move you want. This is all necessary in being able to read the opponent

So i guess my big point with nair is that it is threatening because of frame traps/baits
Let's not go off-topic then...

...

How about that Bowser MU tho?
 

Sonsa

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Oh hai yall, i was tryna make a hype video with my brand new very first capture card, but windows movie maker sucks so the day is kinda wasted. Home sweet home to the Villager MU thread!

Nice to see some discussion here~ ROB, though? His lazers can be annoying, but Villager has all the tools to demolish him... slingshots all day, pocket that gyro, do whatever you want off-stage.

Ive talked about this MU before somewhere and still think its at least 60:40 for us. Our recoveries are kind of similar, but Villager has way more options, AND Rob is fatter with no balloons. Tree, Bowling Ball, turnip spike, whatever ya want.

Nairs good, but you dont really even need to use it. Always keep Rob at a nice distance with f-tilt, slingshot, turnips, whatever.
Rob can only really go in on you after landing a lazer.

Juggling Rob is super easy too, lots of laggy aerials on that one. You can nair frame trap into another nair or upair I think like Antony suggested, just stay close, he's a big target. His only fast aerials are in front and above him, so under - act fast, you'll be okay.

Sheik we must have talked about a jillion times, I dunno, nothing new really, she's tough. In the latest patch she does a little less damage on d-tilt and bair so hooray, but that doesn't really shift the MU numbers.

Bowser...! Personally, I haven't talked about him yet, but would be glad to in a min or two or tomorrow~
 

Antonykun

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Same, I'll contribute some more tomorrow but here are some key points.
Bowser is mobile but has slow attacks
Bowser is THE tallest character is Smash 4
Bowser is a truck on fire on a collision course with your cute little face
Bowser is susceptible to a 3 turnip spike even at low percents
 

Lizard_Buttock

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If you guys are still talking about ROB, it's definitely in your favor. 70:30 to you, according to our Matchup threads. If you grab our gyros, you can easily take away our best zoning/damage dealing tool if we don't go in and grab it first, and that will inevitably lead to being punished by your quick moves. And of course, the best way to mindgame a ROB is to take their gyro away from them, so we'll eventually feel pressured to approach and play risky, so we'll be easily punished. Without the gyro, we have no really good damaging tools. Lasers are slow and easily dodged, Nairs are slow and most of our tilts and jabs are abysmal.
Basically, pocket our gyro and keep it and you've essentially got it in the bag. Just be careful offstage of our D-air spike - we can easily gimp your recovery if we manage to get that far.
 

Syde7

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Copy/Pasted from my response in ROBs MU thread. For context, the person I was responding to said that villager has no reliable approach options, which I was disagreeing with to a small degree (it really depends on the range that villager is approaching from. From way far away, its super limited; while from mid-range, a lot of approach options open up):


I somewhat disagree with Villager having no viable approach outside of F-air and B-air. Those two aerials play an important part in an effective villager approach, certainly. But I find the real threat in terms of a Villager approach is the combination of a Lloid Rocket + Aerials (all aerials, actually...) / grabs / smashes

Lloid forces an action. Either shield, roll forward/backward, spotdodge, laser/gyro, short hop -> something, jump->something, jab/tilts, or rotor arm. Its largely a game of rock/paper/scissors at this point, but its a RPS that's in Villager's favor, as one of his options covers multiple of ROBs.

  • Lloid rocket will straight out beat anything except a shield, I believe. Meaning, you can't jab or tilt it, or react to it in any offensive way other than a laser or gyro. I could be wrong, but Ive not had success with it. Someone plz confirm.
  • Villager grab beats:
    • Shield
    • A roll forward/in depending on spacing
    • And I believe a spotdodge used to dodge Lloid as well.
  • Villager D-air beats:
    • Spot dodge
    • U-tilt (I believe)
    • Short Hops (providing he FJ's the D-air)
    • Rolls (depending on if he read/guessed correctly)
    • Spotdodges
  • Villager F- and B-air beats:
    • Short Hop -> something
    • Full Jump -> something
    • Rolls forward/backward.
  • 2x Aerials (one rising, the other as he is landing) beats all of the above, in addition to spotdodges, I believe.
  • D-smash beats
    • Spotdodge (depending on the direction Villager is facing)
    • Roll in
  • U-smash beats:
    • Roll in
    • Forward short hop.
  • F-smash beats:
    • Spotdodge
    • Possibly shield depending on its health (shieldbreak)
In the event that he has you pinned near a sapling, he can Lloid->Watering Can -> Tree Grows that will wreck literally every option except a roll, I think. Odds are Lloid+Tree will break your shield.

Almost all of these actions will come out faster than most of yours. You'll notice I left out laser/gyro as something his moves beat. The reason being is that, technically, all of his moves beat that depending on where the Villager is at the time you attempt to use laser/gyro while he is approaching. If he's remotely close, you'll lose the exchange (meaning he'll hit you before either come out). If he's slightly under mid-range, you'll most likely trade (iirc, Laser only destroys Lloid at a certain distance; the farther away it is, the less likely it is to detonate it. Similar situation with a gyro, based more on charge, I believe. Could be mistaken).

Obviously, as the possible Villager reward goes up, so does the difficulty of getting that reward.

Oddly enough, despite all that I feel that the neutral game isn't terribly out of whack. Whose favor it is depends on the range each character is at when they begin their approach which will shift it in either chars favor, imo, but not by a large margin. The neutral really revolves around making the correct choice, and putting the right move out there, consistently, and consistently getting your FU's off of that w.o overextending. (Lol, looks I just describe Sm4sh neutral in general, lol...). I just think its a bit harder for ROB to do that, bc he has less "right moves for X situation" in this MU than some others.


And that's just the approach game. Once villager gets a moderate lead (say... 30% or so on you) he probably won't be doing much approaching. That's where the real hassle comes in, imo. This is the part of the MU I struggle with more than any other facet. F-air and B-air are a hassle, especially when combined with Lloid. Best bet is to pepper him with lasers and hope for the best. ROB's speed... well, ROB in general isn't conducive to catching Villager if he is trying to run away, at all. He's not a Sheik, Pika, Sonic, etc who can just get in quickly as Villager is attempting to run.

On larger stages, villager can use all his tools to run, and the increased running room just makes it harder to catch him. On smaller stages, the sheer number of annoying hitboxes he can put out in such a small space can be overwhelming for ROB's clunkiness. Having platforms can make this even more difficult, as he has something to hide underneath.

Then, there's the ledge camping. I just don't feel ROB can safely and consistently contend with a villager who is using Lloid in conjunction with aerials. This is the part of the MU that I can't stand to play, and usually gets me frustrated with my lack of options. ROB doesn't have a handy projectile like thunderjolt to police the ledge (ESPECIALLY if gyro is taken... as you can't leave it spinning on the edge. Not that it would matter, pocket has enough range on it that he can ledge-hop and pocket into a regrab) or the aerial mobility+really hard to disrupt recovery of a Sheik, etc etc...The difficulty of the ledgecamp is increased if there is a tree in place. Ifanyone has any tips on what to do here, I'd greatly appreciate them, lol.


Regarding getting the gyro taken: This sucks, all the way around. There's no "it isn't that bad" to it, imo. Getting it taken eliminates one of our (few) options in this MU. There's just a lot having a gyro on the field, or in hand, or able to shoot provides us.

I deal with the pocket by getting a feel for how much the Villager wants my gyro. If he really wants it, I can condition him into whiffing the pocket and then punish accordingly. However, if he is more patient with a "I'll get it... eventually. Wait for it... waaaait fooorrrr iiittt..." mentality, this becomes increasingly hard to do. At high percents where Im sure a U-throw or D-/F-/U-Smash will kill, I will actually let him pocket the gyro (providing I am in range) and hit with one of these for a KO during the brief lag. Gotta be johnny on the spot, tho. I'll get my gyro back immediately, and I'm now ahead.


I understand that just the threat of the pocket makes it have less utility in the MU, but its nice to have it when there's a window for it... which won't happen if pocketed. Also, I have had a Villager pocket a full laser maybe a handful of times, total. I usually never let it get to full-charge status, as its the best way to safely get chip damage (imo).


I do agree with Villager having great tools to cover low recoveries and that we should focus on recovering high, but I don't think its something that "ROB is good at" (to paraphrase what you said). Villager U-air has good speed, good priority, and a decent disjoint (iirc). U-smash is viable, as are aerials + Lloid to more or less limit where you can land. Couple that with ROB's terrible defensive options in the air w/ an opponent below. About the only way to safely get down is to B-reverse a gyro cancel and hope that the Villager guessed wrong on the 50/50, doesn't have something in place to fux with that landing, or just hope for a goof on his part.

I also don't feel ROB is that great at edgeguarding villager in terms of netting a gimp. Villagers I play tend to recover from super low, and utilize aerials on their way down to prevent me really going off and pursuing as much as I'd like. Would love to hear tips/input on how to be more efficient/successful in this regard. I'd type more, but... this has been a long post and my fingers are tired, lol!




All in all, you make some good points and I don't totally disagree with some of them. But, I refuse to believe this MU is anything less terrible than 40:60 (Villager's favor). Like I said, I would love to see some vids of your play vs. a Villager to see if there's anything I can improve on that will change my outlook on this.
 

Wonderf

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Let's not go off-topic then...

...

How about that Bowser MU tho?
The Bowser/ Villager match-up...
+Bowser is slow so you can kite with projectiles
+He's big so you'll him with most of your moves, unless he dodges
+Villager can gimp or spike bowser off-stage becuase of Bowser having a horizontal recovery and being heavy
+You shouldn't be to scare of the Bowser Bomb and the Dair, with your good old turnips
+You can somewhat juggle Bowser
+Most of Bowser's moves are laggy

-Bowser can soak up a lot of damage so it's harder to kill him
-If you grab or do another laggy move, Bowser can punish hard
-Bowser can swing the momentum back pretty quickly
-If you are behind a stock, Bowser can suicide grab
-In the words of @
Antonykun Antonykun "Bowser is a truck on fire on a collision course with your cute little face"

Conclusion:
:4villager:60:40:4bowser:

Also...Don't get hit:)
 
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Sonsa

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Thanks for the additional Rob input, it's definitely one of our easier matchups, we still havta work, if you lack MU experience you could definitely get spiked - but dont overestimate em either, Villager should be having fun pushing Robby around.

Villager vs The Bowz :4villager::4bowser:

You should always be fighting this guy from about...just beyond his fire breath. His jabs go far and hit hard, his f-tilt, his up-b is quick and can outprioritize stuff, so stay at that nice mid-range.

Bowser may charge at you running, that's nothing a retreating slingshot won't solve.
Maybe he'll jump at you and deal with gyroid+retreating slingshot, or horrible endlag from his aerials or a dodge and get punished even worse.
Maybe he'll roll towards you. That's a down-air punish.

Now maybe you can't keep this up for ever, you're ganna run out of space to retreat (well you can use platforms to get away but I'm talking about FD & Omega) An off stage gyroid at ground level, double jump or ledge jump nair to the other side should be just fine, Bowser can only really back off and give you more space to work with, maybe try to corner you again.

Ledge-jumping can be punished by a quick f-air from Bowser though, that's a nice move he has, so don't get too predictable, mix it up with regular get up covered by gyroid, jumping off and back on with a slingshot, ledge roll if they're impatient and wanna finish you off with a charged smash, it's a guessing game that Villager will usually win.

Pretty much any move has enough endlag that you can go and punish with an approaching slingshot or turnips. Just watch out for jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, side-b... and yeah, I think that's about it, those are the moves with little endlag. See why ya shouldn't be close to him? There's no reason to be unless you're mid-combo, maybe going for a spike, but yeah, shouldn't be so hard.

When you do mess up or guess wrong, the punishes can be painful. And a fire edgeguard will destroy gyroids and beat slingshots, it can be tough, but at least it doesn't last forever.

Yeah, 60:40 seems good to me. Take him to Battlefield, Bowser Bomb will essentially be useless and comboing him will be easy if the same platforms essentially force him to stay above you. Trees are also great!
 

Carotoking

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Which stages do you think are better to pick against a campy villager? And why?
I'm a fox main and i have hard times with them
Also, can you tell me what happen if i use the reflector below the stage when villager throws the bowling ball? I can't try it out
 
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RaenUE

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I don't really have anything to say about stages (mostly from lack of experience), but reflector should make the bowling ball fly back up, but, IIRC, it shouldn't hit them. Something to keep in mind is that it makes it possible for the villager to pocket the bowling ball, which is never a good thing for you. I personally wouldn't recommend doing it, since it would give them a much stronger bowling ball that they could easily and quickly drop on you while you're recovering.

EDIT: As DavemanCozy pointed out below, I neglected to mention that the bowling ball is still affected by gravity. The bowling ball will hit the reflector, bounce back up, and come falling back down.
 
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DavemanCozy

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I don't really have anything to say about stages (mostly from lack of experience), but reflector should make the bowling ball fly back up, but, IIRC, it shouldn't hit them. Something to keep in mind is that it makes it possible for the villager to pocket the bowling ball, which is never a good thing for you. I personally wouldn't recommend doing it, since it would give them a much stronger bowling ball that they could easily and quickly drop on you while you're recovering.
Reflecting a bowling ball doesn't make it fly back up. It just gets "reflected" (ie, it becomes Fox's projectile) but it still goes straight down. So in a timed match: if Villager's bowling ball got reflected by Fox and it fell down into another player and KO'd, the KO would go for Fox because the bowling ball would be Fox's projectile at that point of reflection.

EDIT: clarification: it bounces up from the reflector, then it falls back down.
 
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David Viran

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:4zss:I never gave Zamus much thought...I gave some general thoughts and mentioned I'd get to her later...
Ehh, I dunno why I don't want to, just something about that character is so boring... Whatever, I'll give it a shot!

So! Zamus's side-b as an attack shouldn't really be worried about. Her neutral special gun blaster thing can't be cancelled so feel free to pocket it. Her down-b is super annoying, but if you shield it the endlag is there and punishable. Try her out to get an idea of how much. Her up-b can be combo'd into sometimes and can kill, but play your DI right and she could get a hardy punish. It's also not great as a recovery.

Speaking of recovery, Zamus struggles. She has the down-b which can help, be careful not to get spiked, but they won't/shouldn't use it if they aren't recovering high as the endlag could...will kill them. She has a tether but tethers can die hard to bowling balls, especially on those walled stages. Just get her low and bother her with down-air, she'll get gimped.
As for how to respond to her recovering high with down-b... eh, expect it, shield, and punish ideally. Or if they want to go right over you, let em, but you can still slingshot at least.

As for her edgeguarding you...I don't really think she can much. She might go for a down-b spike if you set up a gyroid which is threatening though, so...don't do that. Recover low with balloons, maybe a falling slingshot if you're falling to the ledge. Oh, and setting up a gyroid right over her to cover a down-b attempt is fine, what can she do, use her blaster? You'll be fine.

In neutral, her dash can beat gyroid set-ups but have such endlag, most Zamus players just want to use their blasters to get grabs to combo into up-air up-air up-b, but can't do that so well against Villager. They should and will go for responses more, down-b and dash when they see you setting things up, maybe some tilts if you're too close (for some reason)
I'm no Zamus player, but if I was fighting Villager I might go for crawling down-tilts a lot to avoid and punish slingshots. Could still eat a gyroid though!

Eh, this is likely even, I guess. Maybe slightly in Villager's favor.
Might want to be a lil more defensive then usual. Throw a bunch of stuff, go in when you can, but be a lil more conscious of what your opponent is waiting for, cause if you keep the pressure up without might thought, you could be buried quickly with a down-b.
You should reevaluate the MU if you think zss's gameplan revolves around paralyzer because I can garantee you it does not. Nair is usually a big part and zair is probably good in this MU too because it eats through sling shots. When she is recovering watch out for tether cancels and don't underestimate how fast she can reel in with tether. You're right she wants grabs but she wants grab reads, Oh if she grabs you out of lyod she can use dthrows invincibility frames on start up to eat through it.

Zss shouldn't really be hitting your sheild with flip jump buuuut never challenge the kick. It doesn't sound like you've played or seen many good zss's.
 

Sonsa

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You should reevaluate the MU if you think zss's gameplan revolves around paralyzer because I can garantee you it does not. Nair is usually a big part and zair is probably good in this MU too because it eats through sling shots. When she is recovering watch out for tether cancels and don't underestimate how fast she can reel in with tether. You're right she wants grabs but she wants grab reads, Oh if she grabs you out of lyod she can use dthrows invincibility frames on start up to eat through it.

Zss shouldn't really be hitting your sheild with flip jump buuuut never challenge the kick. It doesn't sound like you've played or seen many good zss's.
I don't think I have either and I always welcome more input! We can run some sets too, best way to learn is through experience most times I guess.
 

David Viran

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I don't think I have either and I always welcome more input! We can run some sets too, best way to learn is through experience most times I guess.
I don't have much actual villager experience either. I need to practice that MU too.
 

Moderate skill

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Over at Mii Swordfighter's MU thread, all two or three of us are discussing Villager! Here's our thread.
If you have anything to say, feel free to contribute.
 

Antonykun

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Over at Mii Swordfighter's MU thread, all two or three of us are discussing Villager! Here's our thread.
If you have anything to say, feel free to contribute.
i was actually just going to quote their discussions on Swordfighter we had about a month ago
 

FullMoon

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-Leaves a letter-

Hey there mayor, we are going to revisit the Villager MU (among a ton of others) so any input would be greatly appreciated.

:4greninja:

PS: We are mainly focusing on an analysis of the MU, not trying to figure out who wins. Any tips to help improve our game against you would be really a lot more helpful than arguing over who wins, though we wouldn't oppose you giving a ratio as long as there's some reasoning behind it.
 

Sonsa

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Villager vs Greninja:4villager::4greninja:

Interesting MU! I feel like both these characters have untapped potential and aren't used a whole lot much, which is a shame cause this MU would be super fun to watch.

For example, this situation: Villager sets up a gyroid. Does Greninja shadow sneak past? Does he use counter? Maybe Villager is just baiting for this, but Greninja's counter can go in so many directions, and shadow sneak, will he be in front or behind Villager? Of course, Villager's endlag isn't that bad and he can act out to avoid many of these, but he could still eat a nice angles counter and the things mentioned are all possibilities!

Now, pocketing Greninja's water shuriken shouldn't be too hard as once Greninja starts charging he can't stop until he shoots something, no cancel, so once you see this, you basically have a free shuriken. Greninja's probably shouldn't go for this ever unless its just a tap, to shoot a weak one so try and condition for a grab.

Greninja's up-b gimp could work on Villagers whom you edgeguard well and are pressured to get more creative. Villagers may ride gyroid (counter or shadow sneak hype) and hop off it trying to land toward the ledge. Or balloon above and away from the ledge and press a to try and land on it quicker.

As for the other way around, Greninja has no hitbox and his aqua jet is only under or...wherever his hurtbox isn't headed towards. Spiking with turnips or nair gimps are possible! Some Greninja's may try to shadow sneak over to you too, which can work if you're setting up a gyroid with bad timing.

Interesting Greninja recovery option! Villagers can try to get in shadow sneak's way with gyroid, but if you counter when gyroid hits you and aim diagonally up left or right, you're pretty much in the clear. Probably even just holding up too. You can still get hit, but... you dont havta worry about dying off the bottom for a bit. I'm not sure if Greninja can shadow sneak or up-b out of this, I doubt he can do another counter until he lands.

Now on stage, Greninja's dash and crawl can usually dodge slingshots so keeping Greninja away from Villager isn't so easy. Gyroids are...well Ive covered those. Villager may want to be more aggressive as being on the defense isn't too easy. However trees will get you easy shuriken pockets if you're not getting shadow sneaked.

Villagers ganna wanna use tilts and short hop nair a bit more. Gyroids are still good for pressure, but don't just stick around and wait to see what happens. Use it as a bait like in other matchups with gravitational pull or reflectors.

Greninja has nice combos and a nice grab range. Get close, but not too close. Villager's dtilt, dair, and nair should keep that frog at a nice distance and dtilt can lead to some nice upair juggles. Greninja can't do much against getting juggled. Air dodge, sure, readable, but can do the job, same with counter, shadow sneak away? Get slingshot. Dair? Villager air dodge to punish is likely. AND I don't think it beats turnip. Trade at best case scenario...?

I think Greninja has a better neutral as... example, uh-oh, slingshots aint working and Villager's getting hit with weak shurikens not worth pocketing. Gyroid to shield yourself and keep Greninja busy? Counter, shadow sneak, jump over with that great jump - but not that many amazing landing options. Like...Greninja has the advantage for sure, but not overwhelmingly so. Off stage, Villager can do whatever and Greninja is a little too predictable.

I'd say this is 45:55 for Villager? Platforms could help Villager hide and avoid shadow sneak, get some tricky bowling ball/tree kills, but Greninja's amazing up-smash would certainly land more...
 

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Can I get some help against a luigi who sits there the entire match only using fire ball and shielding every time I try to approach?
 

Sonsa

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Can I get some help against a luigi who sits there the entire match only using fire ball and shielding every time I try to approach?
Sure, I don't think we've ever really covered the Luigi matchup around here, but as he's quite top tier it seems important.

Villager vs Luigi :4villager::4luigi:

So he spams fireballs and shields on approach, then I assume shield grabs you to nasty combos. Well I'd say get around just in fireball range but summon a gyroid to protect you. I believe it can take two fireballs, but the start-up before it launches also seems to have extra defense, so likely another fireball. You could also pocket one to let the gyroid progress more.

While Luigi hopefully has to deal with a gyroid or two, grow a tree, Luigi won't want to stick around. He may run further away in which case, you keep pushing him and do this again, then he's cornered and has to jump over you.

Now Luigi has some nice vertical distance, but kinda poor aerial movement. He's floaty, so you'll get some chances to slingshot him, push him off stage. You dont wanna be too close as his aerials may only reach if you're close but they do hard damage.

Only things he can do horizontally to you is side-b and hope for a misfire, fireball again, you fastfall a bit and hit him while he's in endlag as he won't stay level to the fireball for long, and I suppose he might cyclone in desperation of landing, which you punish with a meaty down-air.

Now he's off-stage, great, one of Luigi's only weaknesses is his recovery. He may have to side-b which has nice endlag and you can spike, you may also slingshot the side-b and hope to gimp him, but turnips do this too, slingshot if he's just out of range.

And his up-b is very vertical, but I believe clanks with bowling ball, so youd be better off with turnips I think, I dont know, but I believe all turnips have more priority?

And I guess that's it really. That's the gameplan. Push Luigi off stage by beating fireballs slowly but surely, take advantage of his weird movement by consistently pushing your wall at a distance, finish him off offstage.

Luigi's grabs are deadly so you never wanna be that close, you havta be real careful. But I think...just cause Luigi doesn't seem to have the right movement to deal with getting around such a wall like Villager... maybe this is 55:45? Platforms should help, so stages like Battlefield, Smashville, but avoid low ceilings like Halberd and T&C.
 
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