Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Mr.Sile]

I need help with Zero Suit Samus. I feel her Down B trumps a lot of my strategy and I have no idea how to counter her and that move.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

How do you counter Sonics
Especially the ones who spin dash spam and use that one cookie-cutter spin dash into side air combo
Seriously **** Sonic

 

[Antonykun]

How do you counter Sonics
Especially the ones who spin dash spam and use that one cookie-cutter spin dash into side air combo
Seriously **** Sonic

Against those Sonics you have to play a very reactive game N-air beats out spin dash and spin charge and jabs clank with spin sash while also beating sonics run he can still spin dash into homing attack so you have to be ready to react to those

 

[Kohak]

I believe that Fox is an impossible matchup for villager. Can someone please prove me wrong.

1. Fox's neutral game is way better than villagers. Close combat is asking to get juggled.

2. Long range lasers will add percentage and put him in he lead

3. It's extremely difficult to get the lead or take it back from fox for reason 1 and 2

4. With proper spacing fox's reflector neutralizes Villagers projectile game. Baiting the reflector then short hop nair is a free shield grab or utilt string

Without playing lame on the ledge of the stage and aiming to time a fox out, this matchup is impossible.

 

[Mr.Sile]

I believe that Fox is an impossible matchup for villager. Can someone please prove me wrong.

1. Fox's neutral game is way better than villagers. Close combat is asking to get juggled.

2. Long range lasers will add percentage and put him in he lead

3. It's extremely difficult to get the lead or take it back from fox for reason 1 and 2

4. With proper spacing fox's reflector neutralizes Villagers projectile game. Baiting the reflector then short hop nair is a free shield grab or utilt string

Without playing lame on the ledge of the stage and aiming to time a fox out, this matchup is impossible.

I'm just going to say what I personally do, as I went (close games) against this awesome fox called Mr.Dugan who has won two hypest tourneys. But I'm a subpar Villager so please analyze this and form your own opinion about what I have to say.

1. As long as you don't get grabbed and use your tilts to keep a good spacing (not camping but stay mid range), you'll be on par with fox. You don't have to fight him close combat. Don't get grabbed and shield his smashes.

Jab is an amazing move that comes out quick and has sufficient priority, you should use it to rack up a bit of damage and stop some of fox's grabs/approaches.

2. If you are camping him out, he'll use his lasers against you. If you really want to avoid the lasers, set up a tree or a lloid to force him to shield or move. (Lloid stops many projectiles).

3. You have many tools to take back the lead and don't worry about the lead. You just have to learn to deal with his pressure. Gimp him whenever you can and learn to counter his super predictable side B.

4. ''Baiting the reflector then short hop nair is a free shield grab or utilt string''. This only applies if you are sitting far away from him, expecting him to fall into your trap. Instead of having yourself outplayed, pocket back the lloid and use it later to apply pressure.


If you let Fox chase you down and reflect your projectiles, He'll destroy you. Keep your distance while using your aerials, d-tilt, f-tilt and don't overuse side-b in this matchup. Keep him at mid-range and don't try to grab constantly because he'll punish you for it.

Even though this isn't the best Fox, try to bait reflects out of Fox. Otherwise, pocket the reflected Lloid and save it for later.

Here's another video from this really good Villager main @PEPESPAIN. Watch how he spaces out Fox with D-tilt and how his spotdodges are on-point to avoid Fox's punishes. Don't try to camp him out. Keep up with him and stay at a safe distance from him.

 

[Kohak]

I'm just going to say what I personally do, as I went (close games) against this awesome fox called Mr.Dugan who has won two hypest tourneys. But I'm a subpar Villager so please analyze this and form your own opinion about what I have to say.

1. As long as you don't get grabbed and use your tilts to keep a good spacing (not camping but stay mid range), you'll be on par with fox. You don't have to fight him close combat. Don't get grabbed and shield his smashes.

Jab is an amazing move that comes out quick and has sufficient priority, you should use it to rack up a bit of damage and stop some of fox's grabs/approaches.

2. If you are camping him out, he'll use his lasers against you. If you really want to avoid the lasers, set up a tree or a lloid to force him to shield or move. (Lloid stops many projectiles).

3. You have many tools to take back the lead and don't worry about the lead. You just have to learn to deal with his pressure. Gimp him whenever you can and learn to counter his super predictable side B.

4. ''Baiting the reflector then short hop nair is a free shield grab or utilt string''. This only applies if you are sitting far away from him, expecting him to fall into your trap. Instead of having yourself outplayed, pocket back the lloid and use it later to apply pressure.


If you let Fox chase you down and reflect your projectiles, He'll destroy you. Keep your distance while using your aerials, d-tilt, f-tilt and don't overuse side-b in this matchup. Keep him at mid-range and don't try to grab constantly because he'll punish you for it.

Even though this isn't the best Fox, try to bait reflects out of Fox. Otherwise, pocket the reflected Lloid and save it for later.

Here's another video from this really good Villager main @PEPESPAIN. Watch how he spaces out Fox with D-tilt and how his spotdodges are on-point to avoid Fox's punishes. Don't try to camp him out. Keep up with him and stay at a safe distance from him.

It should also be noted that my smash scene is using customs. I use 1322 Villager.

For the first video I would say your Villager played a good keep away game, but you did get very lucky with the mid 50% bowling ball kill. That fox didn't utilize his jab-jab combo which is essentially a free 40%. The thing about this matchup really is that whoever has the lead will win the game. The fox didnt have to approach you but his hyper-aggresion lead to huge openings which you exploited greatly. I've played Larry Lurr in tournament, and there is a local player who is close to his skill level with Fox. He'll play defensively and react to my offensive game.

The second video is more or less the same. That Fox was better than the one in the first video. He played more defensively. I can handle a Fox who just wants to go all in, but once they collect themselves and play defensively its very difficult to outplay them. I wish I saved some videos from my last tournament, I would be able to share with you my frustration.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

God damnit I just had an amazing for glory with a MewTwo where I was offstage and threw his shadowball back at him and he died but my SD card was full so I could save a replay of it (((((((((
And it was my match where I finally got my win rate to 50% so it was the match of the century and I could record it

 

[Kohak]

@ Mr.Sile here's a video of me playing a local fox player who always gives me a hard time. Notice in game 3 how defensive and evasive he turns the game into

 

[Sonsa]

Wowww, why'd I stop getting alerts? This is like my fav thread I missed so much! I just wanted to pop in and say my previous analysis of Villager vs Bowser Jr was pretty exaggerated. Villager isn't a hard counter, but still kinda a counter. I'd move it from my previous 65:35 to... 55:45 I think... Maybe 60:40, but Bowz June's recovery can be pretty creative. I'd need to discuss this more and play this matchup more... I'm prideful in my play with both, but I can't really fight myself, haha

Now who are we talking about? Fox, Pac-Man, Zamus? Sonic, Falcon?

Well Fox...first off my initial thoughts here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-17#post-18826569
But directly responding to your bulleted worries @ Mr.Sile said it best but I'll go ahead for fun too:
1. Up close, yeah, his up-tilt is annoying. Like Mario's ya gotta jump out of it or try to nair. Use your tilts and down-air primarily to demand space. His dumb double jab lock thing won't work until around 50% too if youre worried about that.
2. I said this in the initial thoughts, but yeah, just gyroid, that'll stop lazers easy. And then it can even bait a reflect! Launch one and get ready to down-air his shine!
3. If you get Fox off-stage and he's forced to use his up-b, that is, pretty much your stock. Slingshots also work well to tack on damage and push Fox offstage as aerial Foxes don't plan on cancelling their momentum with a slow punishable move, but if they start doing this anyway, switch it up and just punish it with a nair or something.
4. Not at midrange, which is what you want to always strive for I believe. Baiting works wonders there. If you're really worried about shield grabs aim your down-air to land behind Fox. But really, even if you get grabbed, Fox doesn't have that many follow ups and none kill. Maybe you're struggling because of the range, you're worried up close and hopeless afar! Aim for midrange, and be aggressive, that'll throw em off.

I never gave Zamus much thought...I gave some general thoughts and mentioned I'd get to her later...
Ehh, I dunno why I don't want to, just something about that character is so boring... Whatever, I'll give it a shot!

So! Zamus's side-b as an attack shouldn't really be worried about. Her neutral special gun blaster thing can't be cancelled so feel free to pocket it. Her down-b is super annoying, but if you shield it the endlag is there and punishable. Try her out to get an idea of how much. Her up-b can be combo'd into sometimes and can kill, but play your DI right and she could get a hardy punish. It's also not great as a recovery.

Speaking of recovery, Zamus struggles. She has the down-b which can help, be careful not to get spiked, but they won't/shouldn't use it if they aren't recovering high as the endlag could...will kill them. She has a tether but tethers can die hard to bowling balls, especially on those walled stages. Just get her low and bother her with down-air, she'll get gimped.
As for how to respond to her recovering high with down-b... eh, expect it, shield, and punish ideally. Or if they want to go right over you, let em, but you can still slingshot at least.

As for her edgeguarding you...I don't really think she can much. She might go for a down-b spike if you set up a gyroid which is threatening though, so...don't do that. Recover low with balloons, maybe a falling slingshot if you're falling to the ledge. Oh, and setting up a gyroid right over her to cover a down-b attempt is fine, what can she do, use her blaster? You'll be fine.

In neutral, her dash can beat gyroid set-ups but have such endlag, most Zamus players just want to use their blasters to get grabs to combo into up-air up-air up-b, but can't do that so well against Villager. They should and will go for responses more, down-b and dash when they see you setting things up, maybe some tilts if you're too close (for some reason)
I'm no Zamus player, but if I was fighting Villager I might go for crawling down-tilts a lot to avoid and punish slingshots. Could still eat a gyroid though!

Eh, this is likely even, I guess. Maybe slightly in Villager's favor.
Might want to be a lil more defensive then usual. Throw a bunch of stuff, go in when you can, but be a lil more conscious of what your opponent is waiting for, cause if you keep the pressure up without might thought, you could be buried quickly with a down-b.

Pac-Man! How nostalgic, this is the first matchup I was curious about! I'd never seen a great one so I went to the Pac-Man boards and suggested this was 70:30 Villager haha, they all heard my points but suggested Pac-Man can adapt and it's actually even. Glad I waited till after the patch to cover this cause:

You can't pocket Pac's trampoline anymore! Sad... edgeguarding Pac was so easy... I mean, it still is a bit, but...not as hilarious anymore. Guess it was a little unfair anyway haha But yeah, bowling ball will do it's job, jumping on Pac's trampoline, cancelling your momentum with gyroid to quickly jump on it again could kill him, but usually Pac's will make it back with super-armored side-b.
However! You can pocket Pac's side-b pellet and actually get health! As long as he's still setting it up I think. But if you're quick enough you can force him to use trampoline! Which would have been your stock, but now...still good, just work a lil harder.

Other way around, be creative with your recovery! Watch out for obvious fire hydrants! Apples can be trouble too. Launch a gyroid at ledge level to keep him busy as long as he doesn't have a key charged, that'll go right through. You'll just want to slide up ledges safely or on walled stages, wall jump or weave your up-b correctly.

Now onstage game, first, here's what you can pocket:
Any bonus fruit
Side-b pellet
Hydrant
Hydrant water for AquaPlaning (check it out in the AT thread!)
Trampoline :'(

Since you can't steal the trampoline anymore, you can't use it to make it red and plant it by a ledge anymore. You also havta just...deal with it while it's on stage. Wait it out, avoid it, it works as a trap now.

Stealing a hydrant is kinda risk reward. You can use it for edgeguards, plant one and d-tilt f-tilt launch it, or get it launched at you instead and feel the burn.

Taking any fruit is a nice bonus, and holding it out in the open stops Pac from making any more.

In neutral, gyroids and slingshots do their job well. A launched hyrdant or fruit can be pocketed however Pac can just make more. He can't really pressure you with projectiles as effectively as others, like Megaman, but Pac-Man caaan try to zone you. Just won't work that well.
Both grabs are pretty slow, but can do their jobs. Both players just be prepared to punish and be really careful with using these.

Pac's jab is pretty alright. Good nair too, lil better than ours. His dash has no endlag, but if timed correctly you could jab him out of it or somethin. Our tilts have more range and knockback than his, our aerials are generally better, Pac's up-air is decent but will never kill, whereas his down-air is pretty pathetic too. His fair and bair are decent.

Yeah, I never agreed with even, I always thought Villager had a strong advantage. Now that you can't pocket trampoline though... ehh... 55:45 in Villager's favor.

As for Sonic and Falcon. People still disagree with me on Falcon saying he has the advantage, I just don't agree, maybe someday, but he seems easy in our favor to me. Approaches are shut down, edgeguarding is easy...never struggled much at all in this MU.
Sonic can be tough, but...ehh... even. You can stop his approaches too a little less easily. I've talked about this MU a few times before but it all basically boils down to: Sonic can give ya a lot of pressure and break in if you let him. Respond appropriately to spin dash, homing attack, and dash grabs and you should be fine. Certainly be more defensive than usual. Always gyroid, slingshot, stay close the edge, grow trees, they havta approach you, wait for it.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

What are the most difficult match ups? My friend is really good at Captain Falcon and I have loads of trouble against him.

 

[Sonsa]

What are the most difficult match ups? My friend is really good at Captain Falcon and I have loads of trouble against him.

Megaman, Shiek, Yoshi, Meta Knight... seem to have a significant advantage
Sonic, Ness, Falcon, and some others can be trouble too with a noticeable controversial advantage...
Vs. Falco is even but just annoying...

 

[Mr.Sile]

What are the most difficult match ups? My friend is really good at Captain Falcon and I have loads of trouble against him.

I used to have trouble against Falcon but somehow I got over him and he's not a problem. I don't know why but I'll hopefully bring you a video of how I deal with Falcon.

Megaman, Shiek, Yoshi, Meta Knight... seem to have a significant advantage
Sonic, Ness, Falcon, and some others can be trouble too with a noticeable controversial advantage...
Vs. Falco is even but just annoying...

I feel most rushdowns can potentially serve a problem for Villagers, depending on your playstyle. But this list is accurate IMO.

By the way, thanks for the rundown of ZSS. Do you mind doing the same for Sonic? I have a lot of trouble with him with BOTH of my mains.

 

[Rockaphin]

What are the most difficult match ups? My friend is really good at Captain Falcon and I have loads of trouble against him.

I struggle with Falcon as well.
Through my experiences, these characters give me the most trouble:


These guys give me trouble but that's due to me not knowing the MU:

 

[Antonykun]

What are the most difficult match ups? My friend is really good at Captain Falcon and I have loads of trouble against him.

him
also
are pretty bad too

 

[Player-1]

I don't practice against a lot of pikachus, but I actually don't think that MU is very bad. I played vs esam and it was last stock around mid % and I actually could have won that game at least, there was a time where he was recovering with thunder and using thunder to go through the stage. I tried pocketing the thunder, but I accidentally faced the wrong direction and I didn't get it. If I had then Pikachu doesn't get the thunder stall until much later and I think he would have been too far down to recover.

Pikachu lacks range on his attacks which is great since Villager does too (not talking about projectiles here). I think the thing that gives pikachu the edge in the MU is how small he is which can be difficult to deal with as Villager.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I don't practice against a lot of pikachus, but I actually don't think that MU is very bad. I played vs esam and it was last stock around mid % and I actually could have won that game at least, there was a time where he was recovering with thunder and using thunder to go through the stage. I tried pocketing the thunder, but I accidentally faced the wrong direction and I didn't get it. If I had then Pikachu doesn't get the thunder stall until much later and I think he would have been too far down to recover.

Pikachu lacks range on his attacks which is great since Villager does too (not talking about projectiles here). I think the thing that gives pikachu the edge in the MU is how small he is which can be difficult to deal with as Villager.

I also agree, that's where his Fair and Bairs have hard times hitting Kirby and stuffs so hat helps I

 

[Sonsa]

By the way, thanks for the rundown of ZSS. Do you mind doing the same for Sonic? I have a lot of trouble with him with BOTH of my mains.

No problem! Sonic has come up a few times and we usually agree he's even.
My 1st thoughts on the Sonic MU:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-11#post-18557385
Follow up defense:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18709875
I understand now why people struggle with Sonic, you really can't just play however you want. You have to play really safe and pretty defensive near the ledge. Gyroids, slingshots, trees when you can, Sonic has no reflect or anything, he has to come to you.
So...what are Sonic's approaching options? Spindash of course. It's fast but remember it has measly priority, gyroid will clank with it, jab will stop it, f-tilt, d-tilt, any smash, all fine options. Or if you just wanna shield sometimes that's the smartest thing to do to.
He can also try grabbing you, but this should prove ineffective as you should be constantly shorthopping fairs, but if he's got great timing, prepare and maybe jump, don't fair to trip him up, and land with a nair. Be wary of grabs, be safe.

Sending a gyroid will certainly help shut down any grab attempt, but be safe when setting one up, we all know attacks like Sonic's dash attack will go right through on start-up. I usually jump off stage to set one up and jump back on.

Sonic can't really challenge Villager off-stage. I said it before, but edgeguarding Villager as Sonic is...kinda pathetic? What's he ganna do? The best thing I can think of is send a spring to pop a balloon, but even then we come back unscathed in time for him not to follow up. Just don't recover high and you're fine. Sending a gyroid from afar for a lil extra coverage is always a plus and there isn't really any punishment from Sonic to fear.

Now...you can't pocket the spring anymore... but this never really helped much anyway, so don't worry about it.

Ahh, I'm likely just repeating myself haha, it's all in those links I guess, good luck.

 

[Mr.Sile]

I don't practice against a lot of pikachus, but I actually don't think that MU is very bad. I played vs esam and it was last stock around mid % and I actually could have won that game at least, there was a time where he was recovering with thunder and using thunder to go through the stage. I tried pocketing the thunder, but I accidentally faced the wrong direction and I didn't get it. If I had then Pikachu doesn't get the thunder stall until much later and I think he would have been too far down to recover.

Pikachu lacks range on his attacks which is great since Villager does too (not talking about projectiles here). I think the thing that gives pikachu the edge in the MU is how small he is which can be difficult to deal with as Villager.

What do you do against Neutral-Special spammers? That projectile is becoming easier as I improve in perfect shielding but the move takes away options.

I often fing myself cornered by Pikachu's speed. What moves do you often use to deal with it?

 

[Player-1]

What do you do against Neutral-Special spammers? That projectile is becoming easier as I improve in perfect shielding but the move takes away options.

I often fing myself cornered by Pikachu's speed. What moves do you often use to deal with it?

Shield it, jump over it, pocket it.

Nair OoS. Nair is already a really good move, but usually its drawback as its lack in range which as I mentioned Pikachu also lacks range on a lot of his attacks so that problem becomes less detrimental.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

Both my friends hate Villager's recovery for being too good. Its slow and they always capitalize on that but they wont stop saying its too good.

 

[Mr.Sile]

Both my friends hate Villager's recovery for being too good. Its slow and they always capitalize on that but they wont stop saying its too good.

Villager's recovery, although awesome and the best in the cast, has inherent flaws.

Essentially, his recovery still does not having enough speed to grant Villager free stage recovery. People can still punish you for using it in a predictable way..

Also, Villager's recovery has a hidden flaw. If you try to hover in the air, or move sideways, you lose vertical momentum, which in turn decreases the duration of the up B. This prevents villager from having a flexible recovery or recovering in an unpredictable way (unless you press and hold b and use your surroundings wisely). Not to mention the lag from falling from the recovery is something else. (still better than Lucario IMO)

@ Sonsa @ Player-1 Going back to the Fox matchup for a bit, Do you think Lloid Rocket is better in the matchup than pushy lloid? I think it is because of the greater range and speed and much safer to pocket than Pushy Lloid, but I want to see what you think.


I was wondering if we could classify our moveset in terms of distance. For example, D-tilt is best used when the opponent is close-mid ranged, etc. Add to that maybe the best circumstances to use each move. I feel this will allow newcomers and veterans alike to know the appropriate ranges of each move. I'm not sure if I'm getting the message across here.

 

[Player-1]

IDK I don't play against many Foxes and I don't generally practice custom moves as I don't like them, but in my experience pushy lloid so far seems like it's always better

 

[Antonykun]

i used to think Fox wasn't that bad then i learned about the jab lock

 

[Sonsa]

@ Mr.Sile Yeah, with the up-b, but Balloon Baiting shouldn't be totally disregarded as an option haha~

As for Fox... I'd actually go default gyroid as it covers more space and demands more reflects which are pretty punishable.
Pushy Lloid can be good, especially against Fox's side-b recovery attempts, so both are great in their own ways and you could just pick one out of preference, but I just think baiting reflects is a lot more important and edgeguarding Fox is easy enough usually. So yeah, I agree with ya on default gyroid!

You want us to say at what range moves are best used? Like... Jab is best used when an opponent is close and in front of you? I dunno if I'm understanding right, seems...obvious...?

 

[SoniCraft]

Yeah I think an important point to make is if you get a Fox below you offstage, it's basically your obligation as a Villager player to go out and try to stuff his recovery. Nair, dair, bair, whatever you can do. I like setting up a tree at the ledge(it's probably a bad habit by now), but if you don't have time for that, going offstage is not a problem. In my experience, I find bowling balls off the stage becoming less and less effective because they expect it now, so instead of defaulting to that(or tree), we should try to become accustomed to jumping out there and giving 'em what we can. I mean we're Villager, we're not gonna lose our stock over it, right?

 

[Mr.Sile]

This is what I do in the falcon matchup. You can use this to form your opinion, I'm not exactly a good Villager.

This is a matchup that has to be learned extensively before going into it. If you want, Please feel free to give me any advice and tips that can further improve the matchup.

(Looking back on it, Can somebody give me tips on how to remind myself to use my other, awesome moves (d-tilt) whenever I feel pressured)

 

[Sonsa]

Falcon can be really good if you let him get his momentum. But I've just never had problems with walling him out. And Im not talking about staying in one place and keeping him away, Im talking about constantly covering yourself, making yourself like a mobile wall. Nair, Slingshot, turnips, all so good. You're destruction and you can push him wherever you want! F-Tilt and D-Tilt can be really great too.

I mean...you should have the same mindset about this matchup as Ganondorf I think. You can stop him from approaching easy. You can take a stock if he's off-stage easy. You juggle him pretty easy! Just always be mindful that the moment you slip you might eat a looot of damage, pay attention and react quick so that doesn't happen. When it does, nair, dair, or good DI can save you. Regaining your momentum can be tough, but thats sorta where tilts come in I think. Or a good shield grab.

 

[AnchorTea]

Guys I just found out something major...

Pocketed pikmin can go through our trees!

 

[SoniCraft]

Guys I just found out something major...

Pocketed pikmin can go through our trees!

Can regular pikmin go through trees?

 

[AnchorTea]

Can regular pikmin go through trees?

I don't think so.

 

[Sonsa]

I don't think so.

Sorry, they can. But yeah, pocketing Pikmin is pretty cool, even though you can only nab em when Olimar uses side-b and not in any of his smashes or anything.

 

[Mr.Sile]

Any advice on the matchup?

 

[Antonykun]

Any advice on the matchup?

be more annoying than him

 

[Sonsa]

Any advice on the matchup?

I talked about it somewhere before, feeling so lazy...aaah, I'll get it. Here ya go:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
Yoshi sucks, I hate him and his stupid face. You smash him and he comes right back immediately with a neutral air. His frame data is stupid good and stupid annoying...and stupid. They have him crazy strong double jump super armor (why? Ness don't have it) gave him dumb priority and made him heavy (WHY?) so yeah, nobody should feel bad about struggling with this one.

I hate Yoshi as a fighter and just as a character. Only character on the roster I have negative feelings towards really. Dumb dino dofus... sorry haha

Stay safe, grow trees a lot, throw out a lot of stuff, nair is pretty essential. Get space and keep him away. At close range...the urge is strong but try not to challenge him, his jab has like no endlag so too bad if you wanna punish him. His dash attack is also stupid, and his nair. Try to get space and you'll mainly kill with down-smash to up-smash or tree maybe.

...graghugh... Sorry if I seemed off topic, just can't bottle this stuff up. Maybe Ill upset people and whine about him in the social thread.

 

[Mr.Sile]

I talked about it somewhere before, feeling so lazy...aaah, I'll get it. Here ya go:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
Yoshi sucks, I hate him and his stupid face. You smash him and he comes right back immediately with a neutral air. His frame data is stupid good and stupid annoying...and stupid. They have him crazy strong double jump super armor (why? Ness don't have it) gave him dumb priority and made him heavy (WHY?) so yeah, nobody should feel bad about struggling with this one.

I hate Yoshi as a fighter and just as a character. Only character on the roster I have negative feelings towards really. Dumb dino dofus... sorry haha

Stay safe, grow trees a lot, throw out a lot of stuff, nair is pretty essential. Get space and keep him away. At close range...the urge is strong but try not to challenge him, his jab has like no endlag so too bad if you wanna punish him. His dash attack is also stupid, and his nair. Try to get space and you'll mainly kill with down-smash to up-smash or tree maybe.

...graghugh... Sorry if I seemed off topic, just can't bottle this stuff up. Maybe Ill upset people and whine about him in the social thread.

It seems as if both of my mains struggle with Yoshi. (Maybe Robin doesn't) I'm deciding for a new main between Luigi and Pikachu.

 

[Sonsa]

It seems as if both of my mains struggle with Yoshi. (Maybe Robin doesn't) I'm deciding for a new main between Luigi and Pikachu.

Luigi is a great pocket character to have, Pikachu has potential yeah. Against Yoshi, my Villager survives, Bowz Jr does fairly well, and Greninja seems to have a decent time. I think Mario could be great against Yoshi. If the double jump has super armor, maybe flooding him away will help! But his air mobility is the best in the game (why?) so it may not help thaaat much.

 

[Mr.Sile]

Luigi is a great pocket character to have, Pikachu has potential yeah. Against Yoshi, my Villager survives, Bowz Jr does fairly well, and Greninja seems to have a decent time. I think Mario could be great against Yoshi. If the double jump has super armor, maybe flooding him away will help! But his air mobility is the best in the game (why?) so it may not help thaaat much.

I may or may not have a pocket Bowser Jr. I went through a phase where I wanted to main him so I learned a few tricks about the character. A Bowser Jr. main even said that I wasn't too far off from playing him correctly.

Back to Yoshi, what bothers me about the character are two things: Can't be gimped under normal circumstances, Attacks have a lot of priority, attacks come out wayyy too fast with little to no lag. I feel that, since his attacks come out really quickly, their priority should be reduced. Also, I find it hard to deal with the strenght + priority of his attacks, esp. when the character moves very quickly. Also, aren't his rolls pretty much unpunishable because he stays inside the egg?

 

[Wonderf]

I feel like Yoshi has the upper hand in this match-up, so going agressive will not be wise because Villager's moves for the most part are a bit lagger, so Yoshi can punish. Keep using rockets to pressure the Yoshi, space with your slingshots and if you can also punish the fsmash. Also even though the usmash if insanely quick, I feel as the hitbox is only above yoshi, because a few times when a Yoshi usmash, I was still able to hit him with the bowling ball.

 

[Sonsa]

Yeah, Yoshi's got some stupid stuff going on. I make a read, get him down-air turnips, and without a tech he just pops right back up with a nair immediately while I still have the turnips out, but I guess his nair out prioritizes it, cause he goes right through and hits me the 2nd time.

Slingshots and gyroids do their job...rack up damage and go for a read kill, likely by burying, or bowling ball if you have platforms. Up-air can also be good, and juggle.

Tilts can help, but you can just get jabbed. MAN, Yoshi's jab is dumb...

And if you stall off-stage, gimping an impatient Yoshi is possible.

 

[Mr.Sile]

I just noticed how many problems I have with the matchup. Any tips?

I know not to challenge him on the ledge but the strenght of his attacks, the maneuravility and the gordos is what gets me. He survives to high percents and I can't kill or rack up damage.