Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Villager431]

i have never beat 2 characters as villager palutena and sheik those 2 matchups are the hardest ones for villager in my opinion

mains

 

[Sonsa]

Yeah, Sheik's pretty tough and Palutena's reflector can kinda give ya trouble.
My Sheik thoughts begin here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18606767
It's tough but doable. I've been losing in percent a few times, but managed to get an instant stock lead thanks to tree mindgames.

I never went as in-depth as I usually do for Palutena, but eh. I think the matchup is 50:50 or slightly in Villager's favor. Her reflector can be annoying, but she's usually laggy enough to punish. Edgeguarding can be tough since she has that teleport, but it only goes a set distance so if you can go deep to bother/scare her, do so. Try to bait reflectors with gyroid and jump over with a down-air. Or maybe don't approach that much, Palutena is a defensive character that will usually want you to approach by annoying you with her neutral special, but you can shield yourself by moving around, gyroid, or tree. Tilts can also come in pretty handy in this MU. Up-Tilt will beat Palutena's nair or dair, d-tilt will start combos and demand space, and f-tilt will get ya space, and shove em off stage for edgeguard oppurtunities. Pretty sure f-tilt beats Palu's f-tilt in speed at least, they may clank. D-Tilt too I think has more range. So generally you might want to be at mid-range when fighting Palu usually, only retreating to set up baits and trees, and only close to follow up, combo, and kill. Oops, I accidentally...kinda went in depth-ish. Ill slap this on to help me find these notes on this MU

But uh, yeah, good luck!

 

[Villager431]

Yeah, Sheik's pretty tough and Palutena's reflector can kinda give ya trouble.
My Sheik thoughts begin here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18606767
It's tough but doable. I've been losing in percent a few times, but managed to get an instant stock lead thanks to tree mindgames.

I never went as in-depth as I usually do for Palutena, but eh. I think the matchup is 50:50 or slightly in Villager's favor. Her reflector can be annoying, but she's usually laggy enough to punish. Edgeguarding can be tough since she has that teleport, but it only goes a set distance so if you can go deep to bother/scare her, do so. Try to bait reflectors with gyroid and jump over with a down-air. Or maybe don't approach that much, Palutena is a defensive character that will usually want you to approach by annoying you with her neutral special, but you can shield yourself by moving around, gyroid, or tree. Tilts can also come in pretty handy in this MU. Up-Tilt will beat Palutena's nair or dair, d-tilt will start combos and demand space, and f-tilt will get ya space, and shove em off stage for edgeguard oppurtunities. Pretty sure f-tilt beats Palu's f-tilt in speed at least, they may clank. D-Tilt too I think has more range. So generally you might want to be at mid-range when fighting Palu usually, only retreating to set up baits and trees, and only close to follow up, combo, and kill. Oops, I accidentally...kinda went in depth-ish. Ill slap this on to help me find these notes on this MU

But uh, yeah, good luck!

thanks a bunch i got much better with the sheik matchup but still a hard matchup to me as for palutena im trying to learn it also anyting on the villager ness matchup

mains

 

[Sonsa]

thanks a bunch i got much better with the sheik matchup but still a hard matchup to me as for palutena im trying to learn it also anyting on the villager ness matchup

Oh good, good luck! As for Ness:
Original Thoughts:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581
Important Follow-up thoughts:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-16#post-18776996
In neutral it's pretty even. Villager has good tools to keep Ness away, Ness has good tools to approach, Villager may outrange Ness, but Ness can combo and do more raw damage perhaps, but once you get Ness off-stage, if you can catch his double jump and force him to PK Thunder... pocket and that's your stock. That's why I think it's sorta evenish, but then Villager gets that big advantage. Can totally shut Ness's recovery down. Can even combo into this from the middle of the stage! (I'd know, I've done it muahaha)

@ Indigo Jeans Heyo, how's that chart coming along...?
I see ya busy with Mewtwo and patch changes but just wondering if that's ganna be soon or nah

 

[flying_tortoise]

also you can drop off stage -> jump -> nair and that should interrupt Palutena's teleport to ledge with the right timing.
Just throwing that in there

 

[Volya]

Yo uhm can we start creating the matchup chart for real now ? Like, every week we choose one char or two, discuss briefly about the matchup and then give a number. It's hard for someone who just want to know how's the MU between x & villager here, he had to read 21 pages :/

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Who are we even on?
Can I request Kirby, Peach, Zelda, for characters to discuss about? :D
Or are we already talking about a specific character

 

[Sonsa]

Who are we even on?
Can I request Kirby, Peach, Zelda, for characters to discuss about? :D
Or are we already talking about a specific character

We don't really have an order, I've been here actively for about 10 pages now and we just sorta bring someone up, talk about it, agree usually and someone else is brought up, aaand etc pretty much. I like to write long analysis just cause I'm weird and think that's fun and I also put numbers just so if anyone's feeling lazy they can look at that to generally agree with me or instantly disagree and then hopefully read what I wrote for a good argument. The numbers just feel like a good conclusion to my thoughts, it's not meant to convey "I'm done with this! This is the MU and it is law!" I'm always open for discussion, no way I'm right all the time.
Funny you chose that little subspace group but we've actually discussed Zelda and Kirby a bit
Zelda starts here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-20#post-18978660
It's close to even, but still a little debated who actually has the slight advantage. Maybe the new patch will help us decide? I know Zelda's knight stays out longer now so maybe it's easier to pocket?
Kirby here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18675612
cree318's thoughts when Kirby was brought up again:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-17#post-18825829
I've discussed the Kirby MU over on the Kirby boards too and they agree it's pretty much even.

Haven't covered Peach yet, I'd love to give that a try. I know the Peach boards have a deep strategy written without numbers, I'll give that another peek, edit this when I get more insight
Peach Boards Strategy vs Villager:
http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-match-up-thread-week-of-yoshi.373319/

Villager vs Peach
Peach is a pretty threatening character in the meta that isn't having her potential utilized to the fullest by most, but when fighting a really high level one...good luck. But that goes for Villager too!

Peach has some insane combos, a solid set of tools and responses, and a strong get off me option with her nair, like our nair, except hers is a kill move too.

If you're setting up a tree or gyroid they may want to bother you with a turnip. Pocketing this and using it is decent, but watch out for stitch faces, bombs, and Mr. Saturns (I'm not sure if she can still pull beam swords) but items get powered up after Villager pockets them so you're sure to land a kill or shield break. Buuut...it isn't that easy. Peach doesn't have to use turnips and random items against you, besides the bomb-omb, they aren't like Link's bombs, she can hold onto them for as long as she wants and idealy Z-drop one over you as you're using your balloons. Basically, for Peach, using turnips is kinda risk-reward, with higher powered items, stitch face, bomb-omb, Mr. Saturn, it's only higher risk-higher reward. Be prepared to pocket, try not to commit to anything that takes too much time.

Peach hits really hard (like wow) with a variety of kill moves like nair, fair, up-smash, f-smash, d-tilt, and even her umbrella (like hilariously powerful just by touching it as she floats down), so you're best bet is to kill or at least juggle by attacking under her. Peach boards recommend staying grounded and recovering low, which is smart, because our-up air turnips should definitely beat a d-air or fast fall nair from Peach. She actually doesn't cover under her all that well, so if you pop her up - definitely drop whatever you're setting up, do it later, and take advantage of this situation, keep her in the air as much as you can.

not done brb

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

We don't really have an order, I've been here actively for about 10 pages now and we just sorta bring someone up, talk about it, agree usually and someone else is brought up, aaand etc pretty much. I like to write long analysis just cause I'm weird and think that's fun and I also put numbers just so if anyone's feeling lazy they can look at that to generally agree with me or instantly disagree and then hopefully read what I wrote for a good argument. The numbers just feel like a good conclusion to my thoughts, it's not meant to convey "I'm done with this! This is the MU and it is law!" I'm always open for discussion, no way I'm right all the time.
Funny you chose that little subspace group but we've actually discussed Zelda and Kirby a bit
Zelda starts here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-20#post-18978660
It's close to even, but still a little debated who actually has the slight advantage. Maybe the new patch will help us decide? I know Zelda's knight stays out longer now so maybe it's easier to pocket?
Kirby here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18675612
Zeezee's thoughts when Kirby was brought up again:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-17#post-18825829
I've discussed the Kirby MU over on the Kirby boards too and they agree it's pretty much even.

Haven't covered Peach yet, I'd love to give that a try. I know the Peach boards have a deep strategy written without numbers, I'll give that another peek, edit this when I get more insight
Peach Boards Strategy vs Villager:
http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-match-up-thread-week-of-yoshi.373319/

Villager vs Peach
Peach is a pretty threatening character in the meta that isn't having her potential utilized to the fullest by most, but when fighting a really high level one...good luck. But that goes for Villager too!

Peach has some insane combos, a solid set of tools and responses, and a strong get off me option with her nair, like our nair, except hers is a kill move too.

If you're setting up a tree or gyroid they may want to bother you with a turnip. Pocketing this and using it is decent, but watch out for stitch faces, bombs, and Mr. Saturns (I'm not sure if she can still pull beam swords) but items get powered up after Villager pockets them so you're sure to land a kill or shield break. Buuut...it isn't that easy. Peach doesn't have to use turnips and random items against you, besides the bomb-omb, they aren't like Link's bombs, she can hold onto them for as long as she wants and idealy Z-drop one over you as you're using your balloons. Basically, for Peach, using turnips is kinda risk-reward, with higher powered items, stitch face, bomb-omb, Mr. Saturn, it's only higher risk-higher reward. Be prepared to pocket, try not to commit to anything that takes too much time.

Peach hits really hard (like wow) with a variety of kill moves like nair, fair, up-smash, f-smash, d-tilt, and even her umbrella (like hilariously powerful just by touching it as she floats down), so you're best bet is to kill or at least juggle by attacking under her. Peach boards recommend staying grounded and recovering low, which is smart, because our-up air turnips should definitely beat a d-air or fast fall nair from Peach. She actually doesn't cover under her all that well, so if you pop her up - definitely drop whatever you're setting up, do it later, and take advantage of this situation, keep her in the air as much as you can.

not done brb

Good so far and no she cannot pull out beam swords, but if I am correct shields receive more damage from pocketed items and Peachs stitch face already deals a TON of shield damage.
But villager won't get much reward for a regular turnip because they are so weak, and are best for damage racking and some extra combos and approaches.
Villagers BAir and Fair do stop our floats quite easily, but that's the best way kinda.
Yea his Uair turnips do have some insane priority or something don't they.
Because of your recovery and how hard it is to edge guard him, it is going to be difficult to kill a little, but our KOs tend to be both vertical and horizontal.
I'm in school so yea bro.

 

[Antonykun]

Zeezee's thoughts when Kirby was brought up again:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-17#post-18825829

that's @cree318 not zee he did say he loses often to mike Kirby so IDK

 

[flying_tortoise]

Yo uhm can we start creating the matchup chart for real now ? Like, every week we choose one char or two, discuss briefly about the matchup and then give a number. It's hard for someone who just want to know how's the MU between x & villager here, he had to read 21 pages :/

then we see how dedicated they are. lol jk

 

[Sonsa]

that's @cree318 not zee he did say he loses often to mike Kirby so IDK

Huh? Oh! Whoops, sorry, I'll fix that, thanks, sorryyy it's earlyyy...

Good so far and no she cannot pull out beam swords, but if I am correct shields receive more damage from pocketed items and Peachs stitch face already deals a TON of shield damage.
But villager won't get much reward for a regular turnip because they are so weak, and are best for damage racking and some extra combos and approaches.
Villagers BAir and Fair do stop our floats quite easily, but that's the best way kinda.
Yea his Uair turnips do have some insane priority or something don't they.
Because of your recovery and how hard it is to edge guard him, it is going to be difficult to kill a little, but our KOs tend to be both vertical and horizontal.
I'm in school so yea bro.

Well actually I was ganna go into edgeguarding right before I had to leave, but I think both kinda give the other a hard time. ah, I'll just finish the analysis here I guess.

So like, as Villager, for most of the cast before I recover I'm ganna set up a gyroid to keep em busy and cover me, but against Peach? She can float right over and quickly kill with a fair. SO, I'd recommend avoiding this helpful habit and just quickly try to recover low with balloons. On some stages with walled ledges, you may lose one balloon due to a dropped turnip, so just be as quick as you can! On stages like Battlefield, you can luckily slide up the ledge, usually avoiding most things from Peach, but she may go for a back-air stage spike, so prepare to tech.

As for Villager edgeguarding Peach, slingshot will easily stop her floating, recovering high isn't smart as I said before, best position is to be under her and use our long lasting, disjointed up-air - fun fact up-air turnip probabilities are awesome as 3 turnips (the killer) has the highest chance at 41%. But as the Peach boards recommended Peach is ganna wanna recover low. This would be awesome as we could just bowling ball, but alas, her umbrella has priority and will go right through. You might wanna go for a back-air yourself, but maybe it's better not to risk it and just wait for her to get back on stage.

Or maybe you can go for a ledge trump? Villager's ledge trump to back air is pretty good, but Peach may be able to float and nair outprioritize us. Just thinking after you ledge trump her, what can she do? Umbrella onto the stage and surely receive a punish, float over with little defense and surely get slingshotted, or grab the ledge again and be punished for having no invincibility? All I'm worried about is how quickly Peach can float and how safe she can keep herself with a nair. It usually keeps her safe when timed right from my experience...

Generally, both characters can give each other a hard time and have responses to each other with various useful tools. Peach does have to adapt to us, but we havta try and trick her as getting in is...awkward.

I guess I'd say this is...pretty much even? 50:50? Anyone disagree?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Huh? Oh! Whoops, sorry, I'll fix that, thanks, sorryyy it's earlyyy...

Well actually I was ganna go into edgeguarding right before I had to leave, but I think both kinda give the other a hard time. ah, I'll just finish the analysis here I guess.

So like, as Villager, for most of the cast before I recover I'm ganna set up a gyroid to keep em busy and cover me, but against Peach? She can float right over and quickly kill with a fair. SO, I'd recommend avoiding this helpful habit and just quickly try to recover low with balloons. On some stages with walled ledges, you may lose one balloon due to a dropped turnip, so just be as quick as you can! On stages like Battlefield, you can luckily slide up the ledge, usually avoiding most things from Peach, but she may go for a back-air stage spike, so prepare to tech.

As for Villager edgeguarding Peach, slingshot will easily stop her floating, recovering high isn't smart as I said before, best position is to be under her and use our long lasting, disjointed up-air - fun fact up-air turnip probabilities are awesome as 3 turnips (the killer) has the highest chance at 41%. But as the Peach boards recommended Peach is ganna wanna recover low. This would be awesome as we could just bowling ball, but alas, her umbrella has priority and will go right through. You might wanna go for a back-air yourself, but maybe it's better not to risk it and just wait for her to get back on stage.

Or maybe you can go for a ledge trump? Villager's ledge trump to back air is pretty good, but Peach may be able to float and nair outprioritize us. Just thinking after you ledge trump her, what can she do? Umbrella onto the stage and surely receive a punish, float over with little defense and surely get slingshotted, or grab the ledge again and be punished for having no invincibility? All I'm worried about is how quickly Peach can float and how safe she can keep herself with a nair. It usually keeps her safe when timed right from my experience...

Generally, both characters can give each other a hard time and have responses to each other with various useful tools. Peach does have to adapt to us, but we havta try and trick her as getting in is...awkward.

I guess I'd say this is...pretty much even? 50:50? Anyone disagree?

Maybe slightly in villagers favor because of his projectiles, he can easily keep peach back, considering how she has to approach while she has a......rather below average mobility, and approaching with float makes us predictable especially for how easy you can hit us out of it. But when we do close the gap, I think we have an easier time trying to fight because I am pretty sure you guys will try to open it.

I kinda give it a 60:40 at worst in Villagers favor but still a possible even.
I just wish I could go to local tournaments instead of ALWAYS having to rely on my knowledge on FG perspective

 

[Antonykun]

I would stray from using FG as your way of measuring Peach because you need a degree in Harvard to learn her

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I would stray from using FG as your way of measuring Peach because you need a degree in Harvard to learn her

.........ok......... But it does at least help me practice and learn a few things......I guess, Too bad I have a lot not going for me to be able to play local :/

 

[F1reants]

My friend is an insanely good peach main who pretty much taught me how to play competitive smash. I'm not sure if this is a standard Peach strategy but he likes to float above you and down air on your shield constantly, and fairs/nairs as soon as you drop your shield. If you're stuck in this position, quickly short hop and nair to get Peach off of you since you move faster. This has saved me several times from shield poking/breaking.

 

[Antonykun]

Yes floating D-air is a strong way to pressure shield but you should Slingshot to not get her out there

 

[Villager431]

the peach matchup isint that hard villager can zone peach with fair and bair and villager can gimp peach out of her up b easily

mains

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I need help with the Mario MU, Its my hardest with

 

[Sonsa]

I need help with the Mario MU, Its my hardest with

Mama mia! My thoughts are over here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18653231
But at that time I may have underestimated Mario just a bit, I'd conclude closer to even, 50:50 seems more right. Mario is really quick for an 'all-around' character and can do some nice combos... But I still agree with most of my original thoughts, he can't edgeguard you that well and edgeguarding him can easily get you the stock if you space correctly.

 

[Villager431]

also thowing this out there if mario reflects your loid punish him with nair

mains

 

[flying_tortoise]

.........ok......... But it does at least help me practice and learn a few things......I guess, Too bad I have a lot not going for me to be able to play local :/

2 suggestions.
1) Go onto a Twitch stream with a good player. (Ex's 1fow1, Nairo, Nakat, Rush Hour Smash (guy's name is False), Zero, Shofu (more for a mature audience/older ppl) Either play them, or next best thing find out the best players in the chat and ask them for matches (some will say no/ignore you, but you always gotta keep trying). Being a sub to their channel gains you more respect from the others, and they'll be more willing to play with you if you're a fellow sub. But honestly only sub if you truly enjoy the streamers content. And if you do sub, you may get the chance to play the streamer which is AMAZING experience, especially being on a stream when others are watching you. You can even ask the streamer for advice after the match

Pro- you can play some rly good players. Note* be fun so that they don't mind playing you, and who knows mb you'll make a friend. Buts if you get rly social (which I don't do b/c I don't have the time to be on twitch streams consistently)
con- If you ask anyone on chat to play. You may get someone your level or lower.
2) Perhaps your scene has a Sm4sh FB group.
That's what we in socal have. People ask for matches on it, and you respond. The guys in our FB community are rly good. like consistently equal level to the best players you'll find on FG, or they are even better.

 

[Tinkerer]

The worst part about the Kirby matchup is that his copied hat is the default Villager's hair, not GC's horns or pointy hat.

 

[AnchorTea]

I think we need to bring up Kirby again due to his patches. And that he can recover like Villager with his customs.

 

[Sonsa]

I think we need to bring up Kirby again due to his patches. And that he can recover like Villager with his customs.

Eh, his down throw does 4% more damage, some endlag on his inhale and hammer have been reduced, his up-smash kills 10% earlier and his down smash kills 5% earlier.
Nothing major has changed, I still think it's pretty much even. Customs though, I guess we never covered. I'm really not the wisest when it comes to customs but I'll blurt some of the more obvious stuff out and leave yall to dissect it more.
So Kirby's ice breath is kinda useless here, Kirby really wants pocket. His jumping inhale would be perfect if it copied opponents. (It does right?)
Kirby has a down-b that meteors but takes a lil longer, that sounds like it could be pretty useful.
And then I dont really remember much else. Sorry I aint much help!

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I think we need to bring up Kirby again due to his patches. And that he can recover like Villager with his customs.

Thankfully, being a Kirby main myself makes this easier for me to contribute.

Jumping Inhale makes it significantly easier for Kirby to swallow Villager and gain Pocket, which therein lies as an issue for Villager. Because Villager's recovery is so good, it's practically impossible for a Kirby to use Jumping Inhale to Kirbycide. However, Pocket itself is what becomes the main concern for Villager in the match-up. Between Pocket and Kirby's small size, it becomes more of a challenge to space Kirby out with f-air and b-air when he's on the ground.

Edgeguarding with side-smash is difficult due to Kirby's ability to recover at various angles besides right below, and an extra keen Kirby can pocket said bowling bowl to edgeguard Villager more effectively than the Villager due to the freedom of using it both on the edge and in the air. In addition, Timber is a terrifying way to feed Kirby, as the pocketed tree can kill at ridiculously low percents, and under the same principles as the side-smash, Kirby can easily edge-guard Villager with his harmless Balloon Trip back up the stage.

The only safe spacing option against Kirby is Lloid Rocket due to its little cost, but even then, it's far from difficult to pocket right back at you. At the very least, a returned rocket won't be absolutely devastating to the Villager and can even be pocketed right back, so it's safe in that the punishment factor isn't quite as deadly as the aforementioned side-smash and down-special.

Essentially, a Kirby match-up becomes a mirror match under another name, but the key difference is that Kirby's mobility gives him options in using Pocket that Villager otherwise lacks, leaving the projectile game slightly in favor of Kirby. It comes down to the simple fact that whatever you do, do not let Kirby copy Villager. As long as Kirby remains vanilla, Villager's various spacing options can still be utilized and Kirby loses out on an invaluable asset against Villager.

As for Kirby's custom moves, Meteor Stone is deadly against a recovering Villager and caution should be taken when attempting to recover from below on part of how Balloon Trip offers no solutions against Kirby in this scenario. Horizontal recovery should be taken if possible, but obviously mix-ups should be thrown in so it doesn't become an easy habit for the Kirby to intercept with a d-air. Grounding Stone, while less commonly seen than Meteor Stone, is a good baiting tool as the transformation time back into regular Kirby is much faster and can end up punishing a Villager attempting to grab. Approach with n-air should be taken against Grounding Stone users, as an f-air or b-air can come out too quickly for Villager's other powerful options to take effect.

Hammer Bash comes out quickly compared to its power, but it's otherwise not Kirby's most threatening kill option against Villager (side-smash and up-smash tend to be more reliable anyhow). Giant Hammer, on the other hand, should be approached with caution. 40% damage, large knockback, expanded range, the ability to move and jump over Lloid Rockets, and super armor makes Giant Hammer a threat that can result in early death if the Kirby can get a good read on you. Again, due to Kirby's small size, interrupting it with f-air or b-air can prove difficult. The most reliable solution is to create a Lloid Rocket and follow-up with an f-air as Kirby jumps over, but do be aware that the super-armor can mean Kirby won't flinch if the slingshot's projectile hits him from too far away (on part of its power weakening over distance). If Kirby manages to get in on you with the Giant Hammer, however, get out of there. Considering that the attack breaks through shields and comes out within very few frames, grabbing or perfect-shielding is out of the question and can result in a very unfavorable situation if you get punished for it.

Hope some of that insight helps. Alongside Kirby, I've been learning to pick up as Villager in addition to R.O.B. and Ganondorf.

 

[MJG]

Got scrapped recently but here's my most recent set vs shaky:

https://youtu.be/f_E8MsJDjP8

Grand finals can be found on the same channel.

 

[Villager431]

any input on the villager vs lke matchup

mains

 

[Sonsa]

Got scrapped recently but here's my most recent set vs shaky:

https://youtu.be/f_E8MsJDjP8

Grand finals can be found on the same channel.

Good set! Saw you at Chikaigi too, good stuff! You seem to struggle with Ness though... I dunno if I should be giving you advice, I'd love to run sets with you, but I think...when Ness tries to edgeguard you with a PK Thunder, you always want to pocket that, at least at the start of the set. That can be the best thing to do sometimes, but there are times I see in this set where it would be better to airdodge and punish with a down-air or something.

Cause when you pocket, Ness get out of his semi-helpless state and goes into his helpless state and usually Villager just can't make it in time to punish that. Airdodging and punishing Ness as all he can hope to do is angle the PK Thunder back to you can be a lot more rewarding. You started doing this more later on and getting punished, so maybe I dunno what I'm talking about.

But also while watching you fight, I just can't help but wish you dropped bowling balls from platforms more, Ness is always approaching, constantly chasing you throughout the set, and at Chikaigi too - you're opponent was actually trying to trip you up by being in the air so much as the commentators pointed out, but I think if you occasionally went for some surprise bowling balls, it could really make them nervous about approaching and even catch em for an early kill.

Coming back to the stage from the ledge is also super stressful and something I think we all struggle with. Ideally, slingshot to cover yourself, but, when that doesn't work, as it sadly often didn't, no ledge invincibility can lead to your death. It might be best to choose a get up-option as quick as possible, maybe the roll or I think when watching the jump up would have been most useful more often. Ness can be a nightmare... good stuff overall though! Sorry if this isn't much help.

any input on the villager vs lke matchup

Uh, well I got Link input here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18682684
He's generally too slow to really pressure you with projectiles, but he can be pretty annoying and get early kills if you don't focus.

Haven't really talked about Toon Link or Ike much.
I'll go in-depth later, but Toon Link isn't too slow to pressure you with projectiles. He's kinda like Megaman that way, plus he's got a sword and a shield... he's uh... One of our tougher matchups I think. Those bombs - like Link's - really disrupt your gyroid and tree setups. And he never really has to be the one to approach. He can just keep throwing retreating bombs. Plus he's got that tether to avoid some edgeguarding. It might be best to approach this MU grounded... I'd guess... like 40:60 right now.

Ike really shouldn't be a problem. Kinda similar to the Ganon MU (which I don't think we've talked about either) in that you should be fine going left to right to left to right on the stage throwing stuff at him the whole time. When they catch you they can hit hard and kill early, but if you just keep playing 'keep-away' you should be good as golden. Ike has some good range, but not good enough, he can be quicker than he seems so don't take him likely. And edgeguarding can be awkward. If you hit him anywhere away from the stage at ledge height or lower he's dead. But sometimes his side-b is just too fast and you're too far. his up-b also isn't effected by bowling balls I think and does a lot of hits if you're waiting for him near the ledge. I'd guess 60:40 right now?

 

[Villager431]

thanks for the advice it helps me a bunch lke i get this matchup now and ya its not that hard
mains

 

[Ffamran]

Stop pelting me with rocks! I'm an ace pilot and not some pigeon... Sadistic, little brats.

Hey Villagers, the Falco boards started their Villager matchup discussion and would appreciate your help with the ongoing discussion. Drop by whenever: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-26-villager-flying-home.400542/.

And if you all want to play or grind out the MU, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

I swear, this guy has almost no bad matchups. Also, NO, sonic isn't a bad matchup, nor is Falcon. Villager shuts down all of their approaches and leaves them constantly getting hit while getting camped out. Not to mention thier recoveries are murdered by the bowling ball even under 50% -_-

 

[Antonykun]

I swear, this guy has almost no bad matchups. Also, NO, sonic isn't a bad matchup, nor is Falcon. Villager shuts down all of their approaches and leaves them constantly getting hit while getting camped out. Not to mention thier recoveries are murdered by the bowling ball even under 50% -_-

also what sort of uber Villager do you face off against that shuts down Falcon and SONIC

 

[NeonSpeed315]

also what sort of uber Villager do you face off against that shuts down Falcon and SONIC

Magister and this one other villager (I forget the name) who just destroyed my sonic. It almost made me give up Sm4sh as a whole due to how one sided the set was.

 

[Mr.Sile]

Magister and this one other villager (I forget the name) who just destroyed my sonic. It almost made me give up Sm4sh as a whole due to how one sided the set was.

OH It's Magister. Makes sense.

Trust me, Sonic is a counter. Falcon isn't though.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

@ NeonSpeed315 , I merged your thread into the MU thread.

 

[MJG]

Sonsa (and anyone else) I'll happily take advice. I don't feel like chokaigi is the best reference imo. I psyched myself in regards to the best of 1 format (side note : T&C is not a good stage for us imo). I felt like I needed to play slow for the first stock since that was the only match, instead of simply just playing my game, which in-turn, made it so that I wasn't optimal. Anyways, I noticed that tid bit about pocketing pk thunder that you mentioned. At the right range I agree with air dodging past it or using some other method to punish ness. The only problem is getting bodied by the pk thunder itself, which is how I lost most of my games in a previous tourney vs shaky (I 3-0d shaky and then he 3-0d me back in losers). I also don't think I have a ness problem (I've played with some of the best ness mains period). I just believe we don't beat ness by any means, but I'm willing to hear suggestions. I'm open minded =)

I'll be popping in and out in the future since I started using more Toon link lately!

Edit: I've got a lot of catching up to do. Gotta finish this Japan trip strong tho. It's been nothing but awesome

 

[deepseadiva]

Got scrapped recently but here's my most recent set vs shaky:

https://youtu.be/f_E8MsJDjP8

Grand finals can be found on the same channel.

This is one of my favorite sets I've ever seen for this game so far.

BATTLE OF THE CHILDREN

 

[Comet Knight]

I need some major help when it comes to the Mega Man match up, he takes a huge crap on me whenever I find a really good one.

 

[Villager431]

any input on the pac man matchup just recently played a really good pac man and had no idea what to do i had to switch to bowser to beat him

mains