Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[SoniCraft]

Mii fighter's side B comes out so slow tho, i agree with Trela for not rly using it much.
That is so crazy tho of all the mii's I thought the sword fighter was without a doubt the worst. Wish I could see that footage

It just goes to show how we don't actually know ANY of the characters' full potentials.

Imagine this game's meta in 2 years. It'll be so different we'll be laughing at all the posts we make now.

 

[Sonsa]

Mii fighter's side B comes out so slow tho, i agree with Trela for not rly using it much.
That is so crazy tho of all the mii's I thought the sword fighter was without a doubt the worst. Wish I could see that footage

[Just a thing to help me find this at a later time] Villager vs Swordfighter with more thought
Yeah, a lot of Swordsman's moves seem quite laggy and their projectiles/reflector don't seem that threatening either so... And a counters a counter, be wary of it, but yknow, have gyroids backin you up as usual.
I still think Swordfighter is potential combo food with no real "get-off-me" options or you could go against them defensively and they should have a hard time getting through your walls. Off-stage should be easy too as all the Miis' recoveries seem pretty weak.

I dunno, that footage sounds really awesome and hopefully it gets to youtube or something soon, but it sounds like they fought mostly other characters with no projectiles that they could out-range? (Sonic, Marth, Z-Suit is the hardest to imagine haha) but for right now I'll just say... 60:40? Maybe even 55:45, but I dunno, we definitely have better tools, I just dont know Swordfighter's full potential.

It just goes to show how we don't actually know ANY of the characters' full potentials.

Imagine this game's meta in 2 years. It'll be so different we'll be laughing at all the posts we make now.

Yeah, exactly. We could be laughing in a week! Who know what that balance patch will change?

I'll admit. Mii Swordfighter has an amazing F-smash.

@ Sonsa Anything on Mii Gunner?

Yeah it's kinda like Meta Knight's. As for Gunner...
Villager vs Gunner
I'm kinda unfamiliar with the customs and default moves so I'll just go off what I remember, sorry!

But first off their fair is kinda like our slingshot, but with less knockback and it pops them back so they can't really juggle us like that while we can to them.
Their up-air is pretty fierce so land wisely, I'm not sure if it can be combo'd into after a grab or something but it's pretty good.
Their forward smash is pretty similar, so when recovering maybe don't go for a rising slingshot to return? Gyroid may work though, especially since it's so durable on start-up for some reason.

I know they have a reflector which is like Fox's so yknow, bait that, maybe pocket your own things back, they also have some Ness down-b, but all our projectiles are physical. But watch out for this if you pocket any of Gunner's many energy based projectiles, it could heal em a bunch.

But you should be pocketing a lot of Gunner's moves and throwin em back. I don't think they can pressure you like Megaman can and nothing of theirs goes through trees or gyroids as far as I know. Your walls should be safe!

They also have some Samus charge ball thing you can pocket, but even if you get hit, don't worry too much - it's surprisingly weak. Gunner also has Samus' missiles I believe which you can pocket, but can add some pressure. Use gyroid to shield yourself and your approaches! Also should be stopped by tree.
They also have another side-b which is like an Arcfire? Same, pocket, gyroid, tree, it can be a nice little wall for gunner but it has appropriate lag while not going all that far. Stops in the air too like arcfire if I recall correctly.

What else... I know none of their up-b's are that impressive so again, Miis have relatively weak recoveries.

It's more of a challenge than Swordsman at least. I've seen Gunner at tourneys more, not really getting the job done, but some interesting moments. Could give Villager a hard time, but I think because they can't pressure that quick and we have better defensive tools that we should probably be fine. I dunno... 55:45?

 

[AnchorTea]

@ Indigo Jeans I think it will be a good idea to take a summarized version of @ Sonsa 's observations and put them in the OP.

 

[Sonsa]

@ Indigo Jeans I think it will be a good idea to take a summarized version of @ Sonsa 's observations and put them in the OP.

Hm? Aw, I'm flattered, but we probably need a chart first and we should likely have some more discussion to see if anyone strongly agrees/disagrees so we can get a stronger idea of the real conclusion. I gave some rough thoughts but don't think I have nearly enough experience to end the discussion myself haha
But data on their fair and what to do against this move, yeah, could be useful. But in the OP we first need a chart and links to good discussions for each character, like the Lucina thread! Probably takes a lot of work though I guess. (But...sorry, but even the Mewtwo matchup thread has a chart now...)

 

[Antonykun]

Mii fighter's side B comes out so slow tho, i agree with Trela for not rly using it much.
That is so crazy tho of all the mii's I thought the sword fighter was without a doubt the worst. Wish I could see that footage

Side b is a Recovery move it probably loses to Slingshot but it trades with just about everything else

 

[GS3K]

I've had a little experience with this matchup as a gunner main, should I chime in? Probably won't be until later, though.

 

[Sonsa]

I've had a little experience with this matchup as a gunner main, should I chime in? Probably won't be until later, though.

Sure, the more discussion the better, I don't know many Gunner mains so you could help a bunch! Take your time and organize your thoughts, no rush.

 

[Mtn64]

Tips against Yoshi?
That dinosaur is the bane of my existence

 

[Sonsa]

Tips against Yoshi?
That dinosaur is the bane of my existence

Discussed a bit on the page before the one I'm about to link, but continued and sorta agreed around here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-16#post-18743230
It's generally believed Yoshi has the advantage. Still think his super-armored double jump is hell and his dash attack and jabs are stupid good. But Villager can do some stuff. Like maybe for a Yoshi recovering to the ledge use watering can and finish off with a down-air if egg doesnt get in the way. Though, they'll usually try to recover high and won't go off stage much unless trying to spike you with forward air.

It's not Villagers worst matchup, but you're ganna get punished if you try and be aggressive or combo. Antonykun's right about being safe and lame. Get lil damage, lil hits, bait stuff, punish frustration, be careful. If you need time to think - grow a tree. Yoshis will just throw eggs at it until it dies.

 

[Antonykun]

Tips against Yoshi?
That dinosaur is the bane of my existence

...Hmmm...
Yoshi troubles is a recurring theme here isn't it

Anyhows I firmly believe that against two equally skilled players Yoshi VS Villager is decided of the first stock. So play very safe until you get the first stock then play VERY lame

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So be trollish? xD
Anyways yea yoshi pretty tough, are Villagers more harder match ups generally the fast characters?
I feel like it's mostlythat, but to some extent possible certain reflector characters

 

[Sonsa]

So be trollish? xD
Anyways yea yoshi pretty tough, are Villagers more harder match ups generally the fast characters?
I feel like it's mostlythat, but to some extent possible certain reflector characters

Faster characters can get around walls easier and apply a lot of pressure, but Villager is pretty good at getting space! The trouble with Yoshi is just his priority, air mobility(best in the game), and frame data, you do a nair "get-off-me" and with his great air mobility he can come right back with a really quick nair that beats slingshots somehow.

But yeah, Villager doesnt have a strong advantage over any "fast" character I think, but he can easily take advantage of reflectors more often than not. One fast character I feel Villager has a good advantage against though, and many disagree with me, but I find fighting Falcons a treat. I dunno, I'm an aggressive Villager. Maybe theyre having a hard time cause they're trying to be defensive. Maybe I just haven't fought a great one yet.

I personally think his worst matchup is Megaman who isnt necessarily that fast. He just applies so much pressure that goes through gyroid and trees so Villager never has a moment to breathe really.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Mmmm.... I see, but what about Kirby? Many people on the boards, including me, consider it to basically be even or just ever so slightly in Villagers favor, some people agree villagers biggest weakness is himself xD
I mean yes we have trouble approaching, but I think our low height kinda helps avoid slingshot.
(What frame do they come out on?)
Meaning we just need to somehow avoid LLois at least, but it will be difficult.
I mean yea, it's a fun MU definatly because Villagers neutral B is one of the best.

 

[Sonsa]

Mmmm.... I see, but what about Kirby? Many people on the boards, including me, consider it to basically be even or just ever so slightly in Villagers favor, some people agree villagers biggest weakness is himself xD
I mean yes we have trouble approaching, but I think our low height kinda helps avoid slingshot.
(What frame do they come out on?)
Meaning we just need to somehow avoid LLois at least, but it will be difficult.
I mean yea, it's a fun MU definatly because Villagers neutral B is one of the best.

Kirby? I wrote about that MU here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18675612
and agree that it's pretty even. Kirby's got combos and a lot of jumps, but he doesn't have the most options so he's kinda predictable. I'm not toying with my prey or anything but gimping him is fun. While Kirby's recovery is good, Villager can kinda get in there and interrupt him, Kirby's best bet would be to up-air me away and then use the rest of their jumps, but after the first attack they usually have to keep jumping to live - no time even then for an up-air. But Kirby's combos and juggles work dandy on Villager and grabbing him out of gyroid startup isn't anything new. Still think it's even, yeah.

 

[AnchorTea]

We still gotta talk about DeDeDe.

 

[Antonykun]

We still gotta talk about DeDeDe.

F-air F-air F-air F-air F-air F-air F-air Pocket Gordo throw back Grodo
GG
F-air makes DDD cry

 

[meleebrawler]

F-air F-air F-air F-air F-air F-air F-air Pocket Gordo throw back Grodo
GG
F-air makes DDD cry

Actually pocketing is kind of risky because Dedede can hit them back just as easily as when he threw
them himself.

 

[Antonykun]

Actually pocketing is kind of risky because Dedede can hit them back just as easily as when he threw
them himself.

Then save it forpunishment. The penguin will fly so fast

 

[AnchorTea]

Then save it forpunishment. The penguin will fly so fast

What if that opportunity doesn't happen in 30 seconds?

 

[GS3K]

Stopping by with this list of what happens when one of villager/gunner's projectiles gets pocketed/reflected back from some testing I did a few months back.

These are the approximate percentages for everything should either get hit by it. Might need to retest a few times.

There's probably a little more I need to add on to, but it's still a good amount.

moves that can be reflected by gunner:

• Slingshot
• Fsmash
• Dash attack
• Timber
• Lloids
• Watering can (?)

These moves will be sent back if reflected, Usmash gets blocked out/doesn't damage gunner if reflector (down b 1) is used on it.

= benefits villager
= benefits gunner
can benefit both

• = not really significant/minor damage
• Reflected toss = reflecting a tossed back projectile.

With grenade, villager will always throw it back as if it were an uncharged grenade (charged grenades go further, unchanged grenades don't go far). A tossed back grenade deals 15% damage to gunner. Reflected tossed grenade deals 21% to villager. The explosion can be absorbed and heal minor damage.

Tossed back bombs deal 20-21% damage. Can't be reflected because it's in the same slot as reflector.

Gunner's fair pocketed does about 10-11% damage to gunner. Reflected fair does 10-15% damage to villager. Absorbed Fair (using down b 3) heals about 10-20% damage

Tossed back charge blast deals almost 40% damage to gunner if fully charged. Absorbed heals 30%, and reflected back deals a whopping 60% to villager at full charge. Zero-to-deaths villager at/near the edge if it hits. pocketed again after being reflected, it still deals 30-40%. Tossed back charge blast will not zero-to-death gunner at the edge, but can kill at higher percents (around the 60% mark).

Tossed back (side b 3) super missiles deal 19% damage. Reflected tossed missile deals 27% and go back quick.

• Reflected lloids deal about 10% damage. Tossed back and reflected deals 13%.
• Reflected pellets from slingshot deal about 3-5% damage

(villager's) Fsmash uncharged deals about 22% if reflected, 30%. Can KO villager at higher percents. Not sure if this can be repocketed.

Chopped timber reflected deals about 23% damage to villager. Pocket tossed deals 49% on gunner. Reflected toss deals 69% to villager. Both situations zero-to-death.

Stealth burst (side b 2) cannot be pocketed, but villager will not take damage if pocket is used during the explosion.

• The shot of lunar launch (up b 1) can be pocketed, and deals 13% damage to gunner if tossed. Reflected deals 16% to villager. Heals about 18-22 damage.
• Still need to test flame pillar.

Edit: included the heal percents for lunar launch

 

[Sonsa]

What if that opportunity doesn't happen in 30 seconds?

Then you can just toss it off a ledge or just let it go away.
A pocketed gordo that gets hit back to you is an insta-kill. I've got the replay to prove it, learned the hard way in like 5 seconds. Still won that match though I think cause yeah, fair fair fair fair fair pretty much. Gyroid too sometimes.
Pshhhhhh...maybe like... 60:40?
Edit: I dunno, he really can't approach, he's got like no horizontal air mobility. If you just slingshot the gordos back at him... Yeah, he's kinda shut down. Antonykun's right, maybe as far as 70:30.

 

[Antonykun]

What if that opportunity doesn't happen in 30 seconds?

Pocket another. In reality smard DDDs won't let pocket the but w/e F-air literally shuts him down like easily Villagers best MU

 

[Mtn64]

Pocket another. In reality smard DDDs won't let pocket the but w/e F-air literally shuts him down like easily Villagers best MU

Rising SH FAir and BAir hit D3? Welp, that changes my thoughts about this MU.

Not that I ever fight dedede.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Aright, so I'm working on a MU chart currently (the visual, actual chart part of it I mean). I'm gonna be combing through the thread and finding posts for MU exports. Once I'm done, I'll add the chart to the OP with tentative ratios for everyone to discuss and we'll update it from there.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Aright, so I'm working on a MU chart currently (the visual, actual chart part of it I mean). I'm gonna be combing through the thread and finding posts for MU exports. Once I'm done, I'll add the chart to the OP with tentative ratios for everyone to discuss and we'll update it from there.

Good luck Indigo Jeans. The journey appears long and tough. We await you on the otherside.

 

[GS3K]

I think gunner and villager go even/fairly close to even.
Gunner might not be able to pressure villager like mega man can, but an aggressive gunner can still be a bit hectic with grenades, bombs and flame pillar (or missile) due to all the explosives around.

Like villager, gunner's fair is a projectile. Difference is that gunner's is energy based, has recoil, and phases through, which can lead to you hitting each other with shorthopped projectiles.

Villager's Nair is faster, and can be used to escape gunner's jab after the second hit and little before the third due to how quickly it comes out (if gunner doesn't shield).

If you're directly above in the air, gunner can hit you with Uair from a little bit below due to the range it has as well as barely outlasting airdodges. If most of the shots connect with you near the top of the screen at high percents, that's likely to kill. If you're close enough, you can land a dair to prevent gunner from getting the shots off.

If you're below, gunner can drop bombs and grenades on you, and you might have a chance to snag it or hit with Uair depending on the distance.

A fully charged charge shot (neutral b 1) goes through a moving gyroid. Gunner can also shoot himself in the foot (no pun intended) by doing this, as you're pretty much given a free charge shot. Remember, if you toss it back at gunner while you're near the edge and gunner reflects it and it's in pointblank range, it will one hit kill you if you get hit by it. Even if it won't kill you regularly at high percents, you still don't want to get hit by it because it just tacks on damage (obviously).

Flame pillar (side b 1) can stop gyroids and slingshot pellets. Grenades can as well (slingshot triggers the explosion, but you can still be caught in the blast), but they have to make contact with it while it's moving.

Laser blaze (neutral b 2) can be used like Fox's to chip damage on you from a distance (assuming you don't pocket/tree/shield it). It takes about 4-5 lasers to get rid of gyroids.

grenades (neutral b 3) can jump over the tree if charged and/or gunner is airborne, . Stealth burst (side b 2) is like din's fire, meaning that it can't be pocketed, and can get behind the tree. Fsmash has enough range that it can go through, which will give you an opportunity to punish if it whiffs. Everything else is stopped by the tree. Bombs, when used in conjunction with missiles and/or charge shot can damage shields a bit.

Offstage, recovering high is good for both having projectiles fired at/dropped on (grenades, bombs, missile, fair for gunner, slingshot, gyroids (?), pocketed projectiles, chopped trees and Fsmash for villager).

Gunner has decent recoveries in lunar launch (up b 1) and arm rocket (up b 3), the former leaves you vulnerable from above and the latter can't damage, but still allow you to make it back. Cannon uppercut (up 2) can spike and attack above, but it's vertical and horizontal recovery is terribad. Grenade can pop both balloons due to hitting multiple times.

I probably left some stuff out because my mind just went blank

 

[seaking4steel]

Sorry to stray off topic, but I believe Ness hard counters Villager. Any lloid rockets and even his Timber trees are countered by Ness' Up Smash and if any PK Thunder or PK Fire pocketed will most likely end up getting healed by his PSI Magnet.The only advantage I see that Villager has over Ness is that if he pockets a PK Thunder while Ness tries to recover, it *might* kill him.

 

[SoniCraft]

Sorry to stray off topic, but I believe Ness hard counters Villager. Any lloid rockets and even his Timber trees are countered by Ness' Up Smash and if any PK Thunder or PK Fire pocketed will most likely end up getting healed by his PSI Magnet.The only advantage I see that Villager has over Ness is that if he pockets a PK Thunder while Ness tries to recover, it *might* kill him.

Well you see, while Ness definitely has the tools to reflect projectiles, that doesn't mean we automatically cannot use any of those moves. This is where mindgames come into play. Ness' bat is not as fast as reflectors like Fox's or Falco's, so it's much easier for us to launch a rocket, anticipate him swinging the bat to reflect it, and punishing him for it with most likely a dair.

Just because a character has an ability or tool doesn't mean it automatically nullifies other attacks. It's all about how the player uses their tools. If I pocket a PK fire, and I see Ness might be looking to absorb it to heal himself, I'm gonna use that to my advantage and catch him off guard. It's still useful to have it in my pocket for when I can get a punish or something else.

Finally, if Villager pockets Ness's up b while he's recovering, 98% of the time it'll kill him.

In summary, in order to determine whether a character beats another, you have to think deeper than "A move beats B move". You have to understand if that move is even feasibly applicable in a fight, provided you're fighting a decent player. You have to consider ALL moves, ALL tools, ALL frame data, and then if you REALLY want to be credible, then video footage and tournament results are great evidence as well sometimes. Seeing as how the game's a little young to use the latter very effectively, we have to do our best with what we know. EVERYTHING that we know.

Sorry for the rant. Hehe.

 

[Sonsa]

Yeah, Villager vs Ness is kinda in Villager's favor. We don't havta shoot gyroid grounded yknow, so that pesky reflector doesnt come in handy as much as you think. And the only reason Id chop a tree is far away to get fruit or a wood chip for combo setups OR to bait the reflector and pocket a one-hit KO.

And pocketing Ness' PK thunder will pretty much always kill him, he just drops like a rock afterwards.

The matchup is mostly even, but just cause Villager can fair, fair, fair yo off the stage until your forced to PK thunder and then pocket it? That's insane and totally gives Villager the leg up.

 

[seaking4steel]

I didn't think to do any of those against Ness. In online battles Ness' bat always was the reason I died. I forgot I could pocket trees until my opponent did that to me this morning. My problem is that I go too offensive with Villager against him. I need to use Pocket's invincibility frames more wisely. Do you guys know how much a pocketed reflected tree would do to Ness?

 

[Antonykun]

I didn't think to do any of those against Ness. In online battles Ness' bat always was the reason I died. I forgot I could pocket trees until my opponent did that to me this morning. My problem is that I go too offensive with Villager against him. I need to use Pocket's invincibility frames more wisely. Do you guys know how much a pocketed reflected tree would do to Ness?

Insta Kill at 0%

 

[seaking4steel]

Thanks for showing me this stuff. Now I don't have to bring in Ganondorf against Ness.

 

[Antonykun]

if you have a pocketed PK thunder, that would be one of the few times Villager wants to be in midrange. Smack Ness with the umbrella and let out the pk thunder when you read a not PSI Magnet

 

[MJG]

I agree with a lot of the points made on the ness MU but I don't believe that ness loses to villager. Both characters struggle greatly near the ledge. Ness can light villagers balloons on fire and make it difficult to come back on stage. I try to get back on stage rather than going straight to the ledge. With that being said, you can jump back on the stage and pocket the pk fire if you predict it and if you're at the right range. If lloyd is already on his way and you're recovering low, ness has 3 targets to set on fire (4 if the tree is on stage). Villager really needs to make sure that he or she stays in the middle of the stage most of the match. If you force ness to use his 2nd jump and he's still off stage (or you punished an air dodge and put him off stage), he should almost always die. Watering can is pretty useful (as most of you already know) and I almost always retrieve it once ness is off stage. Ness isn't necessarily fast but he's fast from a villager perspective. Anticipating his speed is pretty crucial since ness' punishes are nothing to scoff at. This MU becomes drastically easier once you take the first stock. Just need to make sure that your zoning is on point for all the extra credit we'll need. Also, should be pretty obvious but don't attack his shield. Free grab or nair. Grab is definitely worse due to his auto-combos out of down throw. I've played with FOW a handful of times and Shaky constantly since he is in my area now. Hopefully I get some footage from the tourney this weekend.

 

[seaking4steel]

I agree with a lot of the points made on the ness MU but I don't believe that ness loses to villager. Both characters struggle greatly near the ledge. Ness can light villagers balloons on fire and make it difficult to come back on stage. I try to get back on stage rather than going straight to the ledge. With that being said, you can jump back on the stage and pocket the pk fire if you predict it and if you're at the right range. If lloyd is already on his way and you're recovering low, ness has 3 targets to set on fire (4 if the tree is on stage). Villager really needs to make sure that he or she stays in the middle of the stage most of the match. If you force ness to use his 2nd jump and he's still off stage (or you punished an air dodge and put him off stage), he should almost always die. Watering can is pretty useful (as most of you already know) and I almost always retrieve it once ness is off stage. Ness isn't necessarily fast but he's fast from a villager perspective. Anticipating his speed is pretty crucial since ness' punishes are nothing to scoff at. This MU becomes drastically easier once you take the first stock. Just need to make sure that your zoning is on point for all the extra credit we'll need. Also, should be pretty obvious but don't attack his shield. Free grab or nair. Grab is definitely worse due to his auto-combos out of down throw. I've played with FOW a handful of times and Shaky constantly since he is in my area now. Hopefully I get some footage from the tourney this weekend.

Yeah Ness destroys me with his combos out of grab. Slingshot only works so well. The problem is once I get on stage the early end lag is punishable to another PK Fire or grab. From what I've seen, Ness mains use PK Flash mostly on the edge right?

 

[MJG]

Yea I've seen a good bit of pk flash as well and as sad as this is, PK fire has been the biggest issue for me. It can be baited out pretty easily with a tree though. Ness mains like to catch landings with pk fire or they can get pretty tricky and use a double jump at the last second and throw out a pk fire. The double jump bit reminds me of how TL could net kills if he saved his jump and used it at the last second when the opponent runs up on TL to punish with a grab or some sort of move...only to find that he dropped his shield and TL just threw a bomb down to combo into up air or fair...or TL could simply footstool dair

 

[SoniCraft]

I agree with a lot of the points made on the ness MU but I don't believe that ness loses to villager. Both characters struggle greatly near the ledge. Ness can light villagers balloons on fire and make it difficult to come back on stage. I try to get back on stage rather than going straight to the ledge. With that being said, you can jump back on the stage and pocket the pk fire if you predict it and if you're at the right range. If lloyd is already on his way and you're recovering low, ness has 3 targets to set on fire (4 if the tree is on stage). Villager really needs to make sure that he or she stays in the middle of the stage most of the match. If you force ness to use his 2nd jump and he's still off stage (or you punished an air dodge and put him off stage), he should almost always die. Watering can is pretty useful (as most of you already know) and I almost always retrieve it once ness is off stage. Ness isn't necessarily fast but he's fast from a villager perspective. Anticipating his speed is pretty crucial since ness' punishes are nothing to scoff at. This MU becomes drastically easier once you take the first stock. Just need to make sure that your zoning is on point for all the extra credit we'll need. Also, should be pretty obvious but don't attack his shield. Free grab or nair. Grab is definitely worse due to his auto-combos out of down throw. I've played with FOW a handful of times and Shaky constantly since he is in my area now. Hopefully I get some footage from the tourney this weekend.

Yes that would be great if you could get some footage. Watching a top villager play is always helpful and enjoyable.

 

[HowaitoKumaSan]

Went to my first offline tournament in quite a while (no thanks to work grumble grumble). Beat a Bowser Jr. on stream, but lost to my region's ranked Shiek badly. Made me realize I don't know the Shiek matchup at all, and one of the other ranked guys I know was telling me afterwards that there's no real easy way to fight Shiek as Villager. Any advice would be fantastic.

As for the footage: http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/4012345

Bowser Jr. fight is around the 1hour40minute mark.
Shiek fight is around 2hour3minute mark.

 

[AnchorTea]

Anything on Rosalina?

 

[Sonsa]

Anything on Rosalina?

Thoughts on Rosa MU
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18714581

Went to my first offline tournament in quite a while (no thanks to work grumble grumble). Beat a Bowser Jr. on stream, but lost to my region's ranked Shiek badly. Made me realize I don't know the Shiek matchup at all, and one of the other ranked guys I know was telling me afterwards that there's no real easy way to fight Shiek as Villager. Any advice would be fantastic.
As for the footage: http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/4012345
Bowser Jr. fight is around the 1hour40minute mark.
Shiek fight is around 2hour3minute mark.

And Sheik thoughts.
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18606767
I'd hold onto Bowser Jr's mecha-koopas as he can't use them anymore, but whatev, it aint hard to repocket em I guess.
As the commentators point out, ya should probably sheild a bit more, and I notice you set-up gyroid to stop momentum which is fine, but you even use it after you've stopped being launched and you set it up way up where it won't hit anyone. It's okay to try and bait a jump and punish, but you often used gyroid way before an opponent could even try to punish, so I'd hold off and use em more aiming at the ledge or something.

You also don't use down-air turnips much which can be a strong approach, you're relying a little too much on them coming to you. Villager can be defensive when he has too, but personally, I play an aggressive Villager, and it does wonders. I think you need to learn to be aggressive, I mean, yeah, if you're ganna use the trip sapling, stay around there, but when you see it's not quite working, maybe make it a counter tree, its pretty good too and coulda stopped mecha-koopas or shielded you from needles. Nair is good, I didn't really see you try to drop and bowling balls from a platform, more approaching fairs instead of retreating, Villager can be really good at pushing people away and gimping. But anyway, good luck!