Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Antonykun]

The Megaman struggles are very real...I'd like some different perspectives on this, how do you guys usually try to deal with his pellets?

Custom on: pushy Lloyd
Custom off: cry

 

[RAzul]

I've only played one really decent D3 so don't regard my post as fact-- The D3 MU is where Villager's zoning game really has to shine, otherwise you're going to get bopped over the head by D3's silly range. Short hop approaching fairs/bairs , retreating fairs, Gyroid into fair or dash attack to nair, it's all about those pellets. They can also send a Gordo but when you're faced with those, it's best to retreat before using pocket so if you flub it, you're still at a safe enough distance to put up your shield or dodge or whatever. When RELEASING a gordo, be safe, I like to chuck it at his shield for that pressure, or when he's recovering, then follow up with a tree or nair to edgegaurd.
The thing is, if you Pocket a Gordo, they WILL be anticipating it, if you throw it with distance between you two it WILL get reflected and you'll die and look like a massive tool, point blank is the way to go with a gordo, especially since you don't suffer from lag like D3 does.
Also a gordo v pocket gordo will not work in your favor, don't try that.

One thing to be wary of is D3's Down Smash, I like to approach with a shorthop Dair (well fullhop in this MU) just to stay safe from that and potential grab set ups. Your own down smash is good since D3 is so big, cover yourself with Gyroids, ect ect.

Also, FG was probably why you got bodied, I feel battlefield/Smashville is a much better stage for Villy here since he has more room to bounce around and throw out that forward air nonsense

We should invite some D3's in here to train against, I actually don't think I've ever seen a good one in FG, could D3 be a rarer main than Villager?

Much appreciated my brotha. Thanks a bunch. Yeah though, I totally feel my "bodying" was due to FG. All those heavy characters have legit scare factors and are aurprisingly quick, e.g. d3, Dong

 

[cree318]

Custom on: pushy Lloyd
Custom off: cry

Customs: Megaman's skull barrier = fast and painful death
No customs: Megaman's metal blade and lemons = slow and painful death

 

[Sonsa]

Oh, also, I hadn't considered this, but since Yoshi has super armor on his double jump and can attack whatever while keeping the momentum, edgeguarding him when he recovers high is still troublesome, but maybe off-stage try to go for a footstool? Could be super situational, but just thought it would be good to keep in mind.

 

[SoniCraft]

Soooo how about that MU chart? :D

 

[Makai Wars]

Oh, also, I hadn't considered this, but since Yoshi has super armor on his double jump and can attack whatever while keeping the momentum, edgeguarding him when he recovers high is still troublesome, but maybe off-stage try to go for a footstool? Could be super situational, but just thought it would be good to keep in mind.

There are a lot of times where when you go for a footstool you just get the jump without the spike effect, which is what i feel would be the case with Yoshi's unreasonably strong jump armor, but I''ve never actually been in the position to try it-- could some one give it a shot?

I think the only thing we have that beats his armor is the tree, and good luck landing that mess

 

[FirestormNeos]

What's Villager VS Palutena look like?

 

[Mark_got_woodz?]

So that's it for mega man? No other advice?

 

[Sonsa]

So that's it for mega man? No other advice?

Yeah, that's about all I had to say really. At the very least if you're that stubborn, juggling MM with turnips and slingshots should be easier than usual as MM is kinda heavyish.

What's Villager VS Palutena look like?

Against default Palutena? Without customs I presume. Well her reflect is the big thing I guess. Just try to bair it like with other characters. Launch a gyroid and jump on over with some turnips. Also try not to recover from the ledge with gyroids and slingshots, that may kill you. Just jump up with turnips or somethin instead.
Her 3-shot thing can be annoying but keep moving and it wont hit ya. Gyroid will also shield you from those hits.
Palutena (default at least) is just kinda laggy and her specials dont help her a lot. Villager isnt the very best at punishing endlag, but in this matchup, generally stay in the air, bait reflects and punish, aaand be patient.

 

[cree318]

I haven't faced a good Palutena (1111 set) in a while so my advice may be a little dated:
- I feel that this MU is similar to the Villy Vs Rosa, so prepare to play up close and in your face against Palutena.
- Her reflector is BIG and also pushes away, so the normal projectile game may not work as well, not saying you shouldn't use your projectiles but understand that she has an immediate counter to them. Even though its big, her reflector only faces one side so do the classic bait out with a lloid and punish by jumping over her and dairing/nairing.
- I think she has a jab to fsmash string that works pretty well. At the very least the windbox from the fsmash will create space between you and her which is good for her.
- She is pretty tall so you shouldn't have a hard time connecting your attacks, just watch out for her airdodges/warps.
- Her tilts are pretty wonky too, they last a while and have disjointed hitboxes. I think I remember that Palutena's utilt beats Villy's dair but I could be wrong.

Anyway that's all I can remember for now, I'll try and get in some more matches against a 1111 Palutena soon so I can add more to this discussion.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Can you guys help me with the Fox Matchup? Fox is the only character that gives me problems with Villager.

 

[SoniCraft]

Can you guys help me with the Fox Matchup? Fox is the only character that gives me problems with Villager.

Have you SEEN your main recently? X3

But regarding Fox, don't respect his reflector too much, you can predict it and punish pretty easily if they aren't smart with it. Don't be afraid to go for the gimp, and just respect his speed. Use lloid to shield lasers...aaaand read the illusion!

That's all I got. My friend used to play fox all the time, but now he's switched to falcon :/

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Cam I talk about Kirby vs Villager

 

[cree318]

Fox:
- he has a reflector that comes out quick but since it's hitbox is short you don't have to worry about being hit by it. Just play smart with your projectiles and always be ready to dodge/pocket anything you throw at him.
- he can jab frame trap into grabs (and smashes?) which allows him to rack up damage quite nicely on Villy. Common low percent combo is jab > grab > dthrow > fair > fair > uair.
- he can get you to high-ish percents relatively quick with his combo game, lasers, and all around quick move set. You can use the tree or Lloid to block lasers.
- IIRC if he side b's a bit too high you can use utilt or usmash to hit him out of it and lead into something like a nair or uair.
- his kill moves are uair, bair, usmash. Fsmash kills but at much higher percentages. The fox's I've played are good at baiting an air dodge out of me, which leads to a big ol bair in my face so make sure you're not just doing empty air dodges.
- as with most MUs that Villy has, spacing is key. Use your quick moves like ftilt or retreating nair to create some breathing room between you two. But watch out that his speed allows him to come right back in at lower percents.

Kirby:
- his small size and his crouch can make it difficult to connect fairs/bairs and Lloids.
- he can copy Villy's pocket ability which gives him another way to deal with our projectiles. What I've found to be helpful is to bait out a pocket with a Lloid and then come in with a fair so he pockets the slingshot bullet instead and gets hit by the Lloid. The key is to give him weak projectiles to pocket so you don't have to worry about coming in with some of the heavier ones.
- stone got a massive buff this game and can be used as a fast fall mixup if you and under him.
- his dair can lead into a fsmash which can kill pretty easily.
- his low weight is a big help to us and can lead to some very early kills if you land a bowling ball or tree.
- keep projectile pressure on him even if you're missing. Limiting his approach options is a great way to have him come to you on your terms.

 

[Sonsa]

In regards to Kirby, I've talked about that matchup here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18675612

As for Fox!

• Yeah his reflect kinda cancels his momentum and only covers his hurtbox. Plus endlag. So constantly be shooting gyroids. It sends back things double the power (and speed? Think Sakurai said so, but I havent seen much speed increase) So really, always be shooting gyroids to bait this like in the Rosalina and Palutena matchups. Plus pocketing a powerful gyroid is a plus too. Plus! There's that insane glitch that if you hit him just right when he's reflecting it's an insta-kill. So really, never fear that reflector, I bait it to land down-airs and pocket my own tree lots of times.
  
  
• To deal with lazers. Pocketing em is kinda useless. Just send Gyroid, it'll shield ya from em. Or grow a tree as a shield if ya want. Just don't shield or stand there motionless I guess.
  
  
• Most will use Fox's illusion to recover to the stage avoiding the ledge game. I think if you just stand and jab, it'll stop em. Especially great near the ledge as it'll knock him a little downwards forcing him to use up-b. Bowling ball! Or you can predict where he'll end up and go for a punish.
  
  
• Fox's up-b (Firefox I guess?) has some priority once it's in motion, but feel more than free, feel encouraged to smack him during that start-up. Bowling ball or turnips, keep going till he's gimped, he has to keep trying Firefox as its his only vertical recovery. Once it's activated though... I guess avoid being hit and just punish wherever he may end up.
  
  
• Fox's jab lock only works on Villager once he's at about 50% so don't have a cowardly start. Once you reach that percent know that you can likely nair your way out as Fox's need very good timing. You don't have many other options anyway. Villager is good at keeping space though, even though Fox is quite quick, so play the spacing game against the spacie to not get launched into space.
  
  
• Fox's foward air can also sorta spike if he just gets the first few hits! Prepare for that, but don't worry, Villager's recovery can handle it. As for other aerials, Fox's nair is nice, treat it like Sheik's nair. His down-air can't spike, it's like Dr. Mario's. His back-air and up-air are nice kill moves, air dodge and watch out for those. Nair might help as it isn't exactly a disjointed hitbox and those moves have some start-up.
  

Otherwise yeah, your basic fundamentals I guess. Watch out for up-smash. Watch out for all attacks haha. Overall I'd say this match is...I dunno... maybe 55:45 for Villager?
I think onstage it's even, but off-stage, Villager dominates as usual. Fox has pretty much no option but to keep trying up-b at most recovery situations and can be so easily gimped by Villager who has no trouble going deep. And when Villager is recovering low, what can Fox do? Stage spike is his best bet, he doesn't really have a spike. But we can always tech those and quickly respond with down-air turnips and even kill by gimping.

 

[meleebrawler]

In regards to Kirby, I've talked about that matchup here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-13#post-18675612

As for Fox!

• Yeah his reflect kinda cancels his momentum and only covers his hurtbox. Plus endlag. So constantly be shooting gyroids. It sends back things double the power (and speed? Think Sakurai said so, but I havent seen much speed increase) So really, always be shooting gyroids to bait this like in the Rosalina and Palutena matchups. Plus pocketing a powerful gyroid is a plus too. Plus! There's that insane glitch that if you hit him just right when he's reflecting it's an insta-kill. So really, never fear that reflector, I bait it to land down-airs and pocket my own tree lots of times.
  
  
• To deal with lazers. Pocketing em is kinda useless. Just send Gyroid, it'll shield ya from em. Or grow a tree as a shield if ya want. Just don't shield or stand there motionless I guess.
  
  
• Most will use Fox's illusion to recover to the stage avoiding the ledge game. I think if you just stand and jab, it'll stop em. Especially great near the ledge as it'll knock him a little downwards forcing him to use up-b. Bowling ball! Or you can predict where he'll end up and go for a punish.
  
  
• Fox's up-b (Firefox I guess?) has some priority once it's in motion, but feel more than free, feel encouraged to smack him during that start-up. Bowling ball or turnips, keep going till he's gimped, he has to keep trying Firefox as its his only vertical recovery. Once it's activated though... I guess avoid being hit and just punish wherever he may end up.
  
  
• Fox's jab lock only works on Villager once he's at about 50% so don't have a cowardly start. Once you reach that percent know that you can likely nair your way out as Fox's need very good timing. You don't have many other options anyway. Villager is good at keeping space though, even though Fox is quite quick, so play the spacing game against the spacie to not get launched into space.
  
  
• Fox's foward air can also sorta spike if he just gets the first few hits! Prepare for that, but don't worry, Villager's recovery can handle it. As for other aerials, Fox's nair is nice, treat it like Sheik's nair. His down-air can't spike, it's like Dr. Mario's. His back-air and up-air are nice kill moves, air dodge and watch out for those. Nair might help as it isn't exactly a disjointed hitbox and those moves have some start-up.

Otherwise yeah, your basic fundamentals I guess. Watch out for up-smash. Watch out for all attacks haha. Overall I'd say this match is...I dunno... maybe 55:45 for Villager?
I think onstage it's even, but off-stage, Villager dominates as usual. Fox has pretty much no option but to keep trying up-b at most recovery situations and can be so easily gimped by Villager who has no trouble going deep. And when Villager is recovering low, what can Fox do? Stage spike is his best bet, he doesn't really have a spike. But we can always tech those and quickly respond with down-air turnips and even kill by gimping.

I don't think any reflector sends things back with double power outside of customs (Fox does
have a slower, more potent reflector), except maybe Ness's baseball bat? Otherwise only Villager's
Pocket sends things back that strong.

 

[Sonsa]

I don't think any reflector sends things back with double power outside of customs (Fox does
have a slower, more potent reflector), except maybe Ness's baseball bat? Otherwise only Villager's
Pocket sends things back that strong.

Oh, I thought Sakurai said something about it amplifying power in a pic of the day. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Ness' bat definitely adds speed to gyroid at least. I think Mario nearly doubles the power, no? Like a reflected tree from Mario will insta-kill right? I also thought a reflected tree from Fox would insta-kill but... ahh I need more research. I might just be remembering getting a pocketed tree reflected back. Either way, I think when you pocket things you only add your own damage multipliers anyway.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh, I thought Sakurai said something about it amplifying power in a pic of the day. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Ness' bat definitely adds speed to gyroid at least. I think Mario nearly doubles the power, no? Like a reflected tree from Mario will insta-kill right? I also thought a reflected tree from Fox would insta-kill but... ahh I need more research. I might just be remembering getting a pocketed tree reflected back. Either way, I think when you pocket things you only add your own damage multipliers anyway.

Like, nearly all reflectors add power, just not up to double strength on their own. The tree is just so strong
that pretty much anything reflecting it is death. Also worth noting is that a lot of reflectors fail
against projectiles doing more than 50%.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Have you SEEN your main recently? X3

But regarding Fox, don't respect his reflector too much, you can predict it and punish pretty easily if they aren't smart with it. Don't be afraid to go for the gimp, and just respect his speed. Use lloid to shield lasers...aaaand read the illusion!

That's all I got. My friend used to play fox all the time, but now he's switched to falcon :/

I don't fear fox with megaman, I just have to play smart. Thanks for the advice

 

[Sonsa]

I don't fear fox with megaman, I just have to play smart. Thanks for the advice

Oh, he just meant when you said "Fox is the only one giving me trouble as Villager" to look at your main because Villager vs Megaman is one of our scariest matchups haha

 

[Antonykun]

Fox is fast and has annoying kill setups off fast moves :/

 

[Sonsa]

Fox is fast and has annoying kill setups off fast moves :/

He's also got an annoying voice, am I right?

But yeah again, keep that space, watch out for jab locks, up-smashes. Try to stay in the air, always jumping around Fox while throwing gyroids to stop his momentum. Fox isn't Lil Mac in the air, but nothing too crazy powerful either, and nothing disjointed, so definitely manageable. Keep yourself safe with disjointed turnips that last a while and nair. Turnip up-air juggles are also quite effective on Fox. All he can do is air dodge appropriately or try to get away with side-b, which often times can get him near off stage where you shine!

 

[Makai Wars]

One MU I wanted to touch on is the She-Hulk.
I THINK this is overall a good MU for Villager thanks to his range and general slipperiness but I've been training with this really great Shulk player and feel the need to reconsider, or at least get a second opinion.
Since Shulk is tall, he's weak to the slingshot since you can smack him from any kind if hop, BUT his fair and nair can totally just eat up the pellets!

A speed monado Shulk forward air barrage allows him to get all up in our face and there isn't too much we can do to stop it, granted Villager's nair is a really good anti Shulk move in general, I think Shulk beats villager close up?

I think a lot of our problems with Shulk stem from him being a good overall character rather than just our conventional weaknesses- one thing I found is that Villager can slip right through the "slow down" effect of Shulk's counter since only his smash attacks and whiffed fair are the only really moves exceedingly weak to a counter.

Anyway how is Shulk for us?

 

[Sonsa]

One MU I wanted to touch on is the She-Hulk.
I THINK this is overall a good MU for Villager thanks to his range and general slipperiness but I've been training with this really great Shulk player and feel the need to reconsider, or at least get a second opinion.
Since Shulk is tall, he's weak to the slingshot since you can smack him from any kind if hop, BUT his fair and nair can totally just eat up the pellets!

A speed monado Shulk forward air barrage allows him to get all up in our face and there isn't too much we can do to stop it, granted Villager's nair is a really good anti Shulk move in general, I think Shulk beats villager close up?

I think a lot of our problems with Shulk stem from him being a good overall character rather than just our conventional weaknesses- one thing I found is that Villager can slip right through the "slow down" effect of Shulk's counter since only his smash attacks and whiffed fair are the only really moves exceedingly weak to a counter.

Anyway how is Shulk for us?

My thoughts on Shulk haven't changed much:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18635854
Well maybe a little. There I saw slightly in Villager's favor, but just cause of Shulk's very vertical recovery, off-stage as I said is kinda a breeze, and yeah, you can still run and outlast Shulk's unfavorable arts. Plus he's just so laggy. I'd say this matchup is between 55:45 and 60:40.

We really need a matchup chart and links on the front page so this stops happening. Like the Lucina thread (so gorgeous...so jealous) Im open to talking about previously discussed matchups again, but when people are looking for a certain matchup it should be easy to find.

 

[Makai Wars]

My thoughts on Shulk haven't changed much:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18635854
Well maybe a little. There I saw slightly in Villager's favor, but just cause of Shulk's very vertical recovery, off-stage as I said is kinda a breeze, and yeah, you can still run and outlast Shulk's unfavorable arts. Plus he's just so laggy. I'd say this matchup is between 55:45 and 60:40.

We really need a matchup chart and links on the front page so this stops happening. Like the Lucina thread (so gorgeous...so jealous) Im open to talking about previously discussed matchups again, but when people are looking for a certain matchup it should be easy to find.

Oh pffft, I had no idea.

We really should start on an MU chart, we've reviewed a lot of characters and we're gonna end up losing track of who we talked about and just go in circles if we don't get one.

Maybe someone could format one in the social thread and get it copy pasted into the OP?

 

[Sonsa]

Maybe someone could format one in the social thread and get it copy pasted into the OP?

Hopefully, I've tried learning the format, but can't find the right buttons...thought maybe only mods could do it or something.

Also, I think we should talk about Meta Knight and Palutena a bit more to get some solid numbers, I just haven't fought good Meta Knights or Palutenas so I can't help much. But what we have so far is pretty good and could probably get a conclusion.

After that, I've wanted to cover two angels with one stone for a little while, but I don't want to rush the thread and stuff.

 

[Antonykun]

• The angels out range villager on and off stage
• Villager has faster normals
• Both characters recoveries are hit me for the opponent
• Upperdash/Electroshock is very tempting to interrupt, don't. Just respect it as Upperdash kills Villager at fraudulent percents
  
• Pit's dash is cray cray its like falcon but slower and with a kill throw and a better DA
• Pit can go toe to toe in the projectile game with villager with Palutena's Bow Dark Pit gets no such luxuries
• The pit's range is deceptively long because the tend to lean when they attack
  
• I don't think I have every seen a good Pit Main use Guardian Orbitars to actually reflect anything, but rather to give them coverage as they fall but not always
  
• Their Smashes are really fast but not faster than villager n-air so get in and village them

 

[Sonsa]

• The angels out range villager on and off stage
• Villager has faster normals
• Both characters recoveries are hit me for the opponent
• Upperdash/Electroshock is very tempting to interrupt, don't. Just respect it as Upperdash kills Villager at fraudulent percents
  
• Pit's dash is cray cray its like falcon but slower and with a kill throw and a better DA
• Pit can go toe to toe in the projectile game with villager with Palutena's Bow Dark Pit gets no such luxuries
• The pit's range is deceptively long because the tend to lean when they attack
  
• I don't think I have every seen a good Pit Main use Guardian Orbitars to actually reflect anything, but rather to give them coverage as they fall but not always
  
• Their Smashes are really fast but not faster than villager n-air so get in and village them

Wai-wai-wait! Before moving on, what do you think the numbers for vs Meta Knight and Palutena are? I read you fight a great Meta Knight so your thoughts would be pretty helpful!
Ahh Ill try to cover all these things, very basically for MK and P since I just dont know much.
Vs Meta Knight, he seems laggy but small, good at edgeguarding and juggles. Could be tough to pin this guy down. I'd guess... 45:55.
Vs Palutena, bait the reflector like a gravitational pull, edgeguarding her is tough when she has that teleport, but counter isn't much of a problem, her neutral special is kinda garbage since you should always be moving anyway or shielded by a tree or gyroid. She needs to use her mostly laggy A moves. I'd guess 60:40?

Now, I'll try and give my thoughts on Villager vs Pit and Dark Pit

Pocketing arrows is fine, they travel very fast, but pocketing reflected stuff is even better. The Pits' refelctors are really laggy too, if you'd rather bait them and attack, go for it, but wait a bit, cause even turnips and things won't go through the reflectors, even from above if you're too fast.

Antonykun is right about Pits' side specials. They have some mighty super armor and will only activate faster if you throw a projectile like bowling ball. I'd recommend just shield grabbing, back throwing, Villager's back throw is a kill at higher percents, or you get an edgeguard opportunity. Shoveling should also be fine if they didn't land too far.

The Pits' have some deceptive endlag and range, so keep your space, and don't get baited into committing to a punish that will just get you punished. You need to be more patient and careful than usual.

The only difference between Pit and Pittoo I hear is their bow, and overall Pit does more knockback while DP does more damage. Since more damage just gives us more range, Dark Pit just seems like a worse Pit to me and it isn't surprising to see so many Dark Pits making the switch. In this matchup specifically, the only noticeable difference is Pit has a slightly easier time popping Villager's balloons.

I think... vs Pit the matchup is 50:50. Pit is a really good baiter in this game, you'll go for a punish and get shield grabbed to kill threw or edguarded kinda effectively. But when you do get the hang of it and wait patiently, Pit's deceptive range and cool down doesn't matter much when he kinda needs to get in. All he has is his arrow which we can gyroid, tree, pocket, or just shield. He doesn't just want to sit and reflect either, that'll give us more ammo or punish him easy. I think both characters tools are good enough to hold their own, just depends on the players styles.

vs Dark Pit? 55:45 I guess. It's sorta just Pit but he loses an important edgeguarding option, but he doesn't knock us as far making follow ups and such a teeensy bit easier but overall just gives us more rage and kills later.

 

[meleebrawler]

The only part of Pittoo that does more damage is his arrow (in exchange for less control), and the only
attack he has that does less knockback other than electroshock is ftilt. They are completely identical otherwise.
Pit is probably slightly more difficult because arrows are better at hitting you and upperdash is better at KOing
lightweight Villager.

 

[Sonsa]

The only part of Pittoo that does more damage is his arrow (in exchange for less control), and the only
attack he has that does less knockback other than electroshock is ftilt. They are completely identical otherwise.
Pit is probably slightly more difficult because arrows are better at hitting you and upperdash is better at KOing
lightweight Villager.

Are you kidding? Theyre even less different than I thought? Geez. Alright wow, well Pit is definitely the better...Pit. Would you agree with my numbers, I haven't really changed my mind.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm not very picky about MU numbers so long as they aren't 49:51 im perfectly ok with any number for MK so long as it's a disadvantage. If I were to be asked about a pit mu score I would say 55:45 for both. Pocket annoys the arrows but they can use their nornals to wall out Villager. Electroshock at 100 is often death because the edgy one edguards so good.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Hopefully, I've tried learning the format, but can't find the right buttons...thought maybe only mods could do it or something.

Also, I think we should talk about Meta Knight and Palutena a bit more to get some solid numbers, I just haven't fought good Meta Knights or Palutenas so I can't help much. But what we have so far is pretty good and could probably get a conclusion.

You guys have already talked about the main stuff against Palutena: constantly moving to avoid neutral B, baiting the reflect -> jump over and dair punish. I played a pretty good Palutena yesterday and he tried to bair me which looks relatively safe on shield in normal matchups, but Villager's ftilt Oos is just far enough to punish everytime. Also obviously Palutena has a great jab -> grab -> dthrow which sends you high up at higher %'s. So its important to be tricky on your descent downwards or else risk the u-air from her. MU is in villager's favor.

EDIT: Did anyone see AeroLink's Custom Palutena yesterday? She looks like such a different beast. With the main issues being her fast, armored side B, and her super speed up B. Dang we might have to discuss custom characters as well lol

 

[Makai Wars]

I feel customs are an entirely different monster which completely switch up MUs for Villager, one example would be Link, who I think we can all generally agree would be in Villager's favor, however, with customs, he gets one where his arrow comes out much faster, penetrates trees and rockets, and is a useless pocket item on top of that. He can projectile pressure us and our pocket game is helpless against it.

Custom Palu is also really dangerous, and custom Rosa, and Mario...


I propose we just get the 1111 sets out of the way, then just go over the same characters with customs turned on later, which I feel will take longer and be more complex since we'll need to consider what customs they bring to us and what we bring to them.

So for now, let's keep customs in our back....
.....
.....
...Pocket, and get to them at a later date!

 

[Sonsa]

Oh of course, customs are a whole new meta. I just personally haven't been covering them because of lack of experience and ...well it would take a while! Villager 1112 vs Link 1232, Villager 2123 vs Link 3112, Vill- etc etc etc... Or if you just cover all at the same time, ah, I dunno. I was sort of thinking after we'd completed the default moves meta's chart that we'd make a customs matchup thread.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I need help with the Sheik and Sonic MU, any advice?

 

[Sonsa]

I need help with the Sheik and Sonic MU, any advice?

My thoughts on the Sheik matchup:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18606767
but you can find a lot more, without a chart people ask about her quite a lot so there's a few discussions about her on a few scattered pages. Generally, people agree we're at a disadvantage, but it's still possible to win with enough manueverability and risks. I killed a Sheik at 35% with a tree! Final Destination might actually help since Sheik wont be able to use her speed to hide as much. It's sorta generally believed the matchup is 40:60 overall?

And the Sonic MU:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-11#post-18557385
I said then it was about even, and the discussion reopened like a page or two ago, but people agreed yeah it was about even. Just gravitate towards ledges and be smart about how much time you have to launch a gyroid or grow a tree.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

My thoughts on the Sheik matchup:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18606767
but you can find a lot more, without a chart people ask about her quite a lot so there's a few discussions about her on a few scattered pages. Generally, people agree we're at a disadvantage, but it's still possible to win with enough manueverability and risks. I killed a Sheik at 35% with a tree! Final Destination might actually help since Sheik wont be able to use her speed to hide as much. It's sorta generally believed the matchup is 40:60 overall?

And the Sonic MU:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-11#post-18557385
I said then it was about even, and the discussion reopened like a page or two ago, but people agreed yeah it was about even. Just gravitate towards ledges and be smart about how much time you have to launch a gyroid or grow a tree.

Thank you!

 

[Berserker.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-match-up-discussion.396903/

Oh, and for now, try not to tackle customs for this discussion. Thanks

 

[Sonsa]

http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-match-up-discussion.396903/
Oh, and for now, try not to tackle customs for this discussion. Thanks

Oh, is that thread for the customs meta specifically or did you just mean talk about default Villager vs default Shulk as thats a thread for that specific matchup, cause Ive already weighed in on that matchup here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18635854

 

[Berserker.]

Oh, is that thread for the customs meta specifically or did you just mean talk about default Villager vs default Shulk as thats a thread for that specific matchup, cause Ive already weighed in on that matchup here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-12#post-18635854

Default only