Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[W1m0]

Sure, I don't think we've ever really covered the Luigi matchup around here, but as he's quite top tier it seems important.

Villager vs Luigi

So he spams fireballs and shields on approach, then I assume shield grabs you to nasty combos. Well I'd say get around just in fireball range but summon a gyroid to protect you. I believe it can take two fireballs, but the start-up before it launches also seems to have extra defense, so likely another fireball. You could also pocket one to let the gyroid progress more.

While Luigi hopefully has to deal with a gyroid or two, grow a tree, Luigi won't want to stick around. He may run further away in which case, you keep pushing him and do this again, then he's cornered and has to jump over you.

Now Luigi has some nice vertical distance, but kinda poor aerial movement. He's floaty, so you'll get some chances to slingshot him, push him off stage. You dont wanna be too close as his aerials may only reach if you're close but they do hard damage.

Only things he can do horizontally to you is side-b and hope for a misfire, fireball again, you fastfall a bit and hit him while he's in endlag as he won't stay level to the fireball for long, and I suppose he might cyclone in desperation of landing, which you punish with a meaty down-air.

Now he's off-stage, great, one of Luigi's only weaknesses is his recovery. He may have to side-b which has nice endlag and you can spike, you may also slingshot the side-b and hope to gimp him, but turnips do this too, slingshot if he's just out of range.

And his up-b is very vertical, but I believe clanks with bowling ball, so youd be better off with turnips I think, I dont know, but I believe all turnips have more priority?

And I guess that's it really. That's the gameplan. Push Luigi off stage by beating fireballs slowly but surely, take advantage of his weird movement by consistently pushing your wall at a distance, finish him off offstage.

Luigi's grabs are deadly so you never wanna be that close, you havta be real careful. But I think...just cause Luigi doesn't seem to have the right movement to deal with getting around such a wall like Villager... maybe this is 55:45? Platforms should help, so stages like Battlefield, Smashville, but avoid low ceilings like Halberd and T&C.

Thank you so much for this verrrry descriptive guide I picked up villager yesterday and I can already tell all of you on this thread know what you are talking about

 

[Antonykun]

Thank you so much for this verrrry descriptive guide I picked up villager yesterday and I can already tell all of you on this thread know what you are talking about

one thing on luigi is that is he short hops be very careful as he can deal a lot of damage

 

[SoniCraft]

Don't be too eager to challenge Luigi's cyclone. It straight up eats slingshots, and nair won't do you any good either.

 

[shrooby]

Hey we're discussing the Villager match-up in the Dedede forum.

http://smashboards.com/threads/read...currently-discussing-villager-6-2-6-6.395045/

Input from your guys' end would be most appreciated.~

 

[Volya]

Okay everyone is talking about matchup it's cool n stuff but we STILL DON'T HAVE A MATCHUP CHART AFTER 23 PAGES OF DISCUSS.
Can we just do something like the ROB subforum ? http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-thread-new-format-little-mac-duck-hunt.382714/ it's perfect. They just create one thread per matchup, discuss it for a defined period, then add the MU to the chart.
If Indigo Jean or someone else don't do it, i will !

Nobody agree with me ? I really don't like how the Villager forum works. People just talk about an advanced technique that don't seems to be viable and work hard af on it (*cough* one chop technique*cough* lloid braking *cough*) and just talk randomly about matchup in this thread without any updated matchup chart since the launch of the game. We're not going anywhere like that, i personally don't learn a lot from this forum and it makes me sad !

 

[Sonsa]

Nobody agree with me ? I really don't like how the Villager forum works. People just talk about an advanced technique that don't seems to be viable and work hard af on it (*cough* one chop technique*cough* lloid braking *cough*) and just talk randomly about matchup in this thread without any updated matchup chart since the launch of the game. We're not going anywhere like that, i personally don't learn a lot from this forum and it makes me sad !

Oh, I agree, Ive wanted a matchup chart for over 10 pages. Just that Indigo Jeans is in charge of it and Ive already asked a few times. Dont wanna rush him or get on his bad side, but...cmon dude...games been out for quite a while. It's sad cause new players don't really know how to get around and likely give up or bring up an MU we've already discussed 5 times. But yeah, I, and maybe some others have just sorta been quietly waiting... If Indigo doesn't wanna do it maybe he can make someone else in charge of OP and stuff.

 

[Wonderf]

Nobody agree with me ? I really don't like how the Villager forum works. People just talk about an advanced technique that don't seems to be viable and work hard af on it (*cough* one chop technique*cough* lloid braking *cough*) and just talk randomly about matchup in this thread without any updated matchup chart since the launch of the game. We're not going anywhere like that, i personally don't learn a lot from this forum and it makes me sad !

or maybe there can be a shedule...

Also, since I'm in the MU forum, do you think we can talk about the olimar/villager match-up?

 

[Volya]

Oh, I agree, Ive wanted a matchup chart for over 10 pages. Just that Indigo Jeans is in charge of it and Ive already asked a few times. Dont wanna rush him or get on his bad side, but...cmon dude...games been out for quite a while. It's sad cause new players don't really know how to get around and likely give up or bring up an MU we've already discussed 5 times. But yeah, I, and maybe some others have just sorta been quietly waiting... If Indigo doesn't wanna do it maybe he can make someone else in charge of OP and stuff.

Let's just wait @ Indigo Jeans ' response to that and as soon as we do (or if we don't after a while) let's take the initative and choose someone in charge of it (like you, heh)

 

[Sonsa]

Let's just wait @ Indigo Jeans ' response to that and as soon as we do (or if we don't after a while) let's take the initative and choose someone in charge of it (like you, heh)

Oh, I dunno... I mean...I suppose I could handle contributing and choosing times when to analyze what MU, but I tried making a chart before and Im clueless. I guess Id be up for it but ehh, I shouldnt be on the top of the list of candidates...
But it does seem that Indigo is just busy with other things - which is fine - but most of us want this thread to grow so... maybe best to pass the torch.
Edit:

or maybe there can be a shedule...
Also, since I'm in the MU forum, do you think we can talk about the olimar/villager match-up?

http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-20#post-19019863
I wrote about it here and havent changed my mind much.

 

[Volya]

I want to take part of it but 1- i'm way too new in the smashboard community to manage something big like that 2- i'm not good at english.
I agree that we need someone more active for our forum, but i guess Indigo jeans is the one who will take the final decision about it

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Sorry everyone, I've been really busy with work and college stuff so I've had to put Smash on the back burner, but that's easing up now. Depending on how much free time I have between today and tomorrow the chart might go up by Friday/Saturday.

 

[PyroBandit]

Quick question: Have we discussed the Pikachu matchup yet? It seems to be one of the biggest ones that I struggle with.

 

[Sonsa]

Quick question: Have we discussed the Pikachu matchup yet? It seems to be one of the biggest ones that I struggle with.

I don't think we have very deeply! And while I have had some matches with some good For Glory Pikachus I feel the MU is a lot more complex than that and suggest someone else start the discussion...

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Okay, so my weekend has ended up being way busier than I expected it to be. I'm leaving to work now, and I'll keep working on this when I get back (colours, links to relevant stuff). Here's what it's looking like though.

| | | | | |
[45/55] | [65/35] | [55/45] | [60/40] | [40/60] | [45/55] | [60/40]
| | | | | |
[50/50] | [55/45] | — | [45/55] | — | [60/40] | [50/50]
| | | | | |
— | [55/45] | [40/60] | — | — | — | —
| | | | | |
— | — | — | — | — | — | —
| | | | | |
— | — | — | — | — | — | —
| | | | | |
— | — | — | — | — | — | —
| | | | | |
— | — | — | — | — | — | —

 

[SoniCraft]

Awesome job! A cool feature would be to make the favorable MU numbers green, the unfavorable ones red, and the even ones white or something.

 

[Sonsa]

Beautiful! Might need to add Lucas soon, but yeah, lookin' great! And wow, is the Luigi MU that good for us...? I guess I could believe that. And good luck with everything you're busy with!

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Awesome job! A cool feature would be to make the favorable MU numbers green, the unfavorable ones red, and the even ones white or something.

Yessir, that's the idea.

Beautiful! Might need to add Lucas soon, but yeah, lookin' great! And wow, is the Luigi MU that good for us...? I guess I could believe that. And good luck with everything you're busy with!

I'm making these ratios based on both discussion in our MU thread and the respective characters'. Luigi mains seem to agree this is a really unfavourable MU for them.

 

[Antonykun]

we should also summon more players from other boards

 

[SoniCraft]

we should also summon more players from other boards

Yeah we could create temporary threads on their respective character boards with polls on what the MU ratio should be. I call Fox! :D

 

[Antonykun]

Yeah we could create temporary threads on their respective character boards with polls on what the MU ratio should be. I call Fox! :D

imo we should focus very much on mu ratios and instead talk about the interactions
for example,
It is far more inromative to say things like "Fox can get an Up smash off a SH n/d-air so try to respect his sh at high percents" than "Villager loses to Fox 40:60"

 

[SoniCraft]

imo we should focus very much on mu ratios and instead talk about the interactions
for example,
It is far more inromative to say things like "Fox can get an Up smash off a SH n/d-air so try to respect his sh at high percents" than "Villager loses to Fox 40:60"

I agree. We could still have a poll on the thread so we could get more opinions on which character has the overall advantage, but the actual thread discussion would be focused on interactions.
Is it even legal to just make another thread on another character's board about MU discussion? I feel like they could get mad at us and tell us to ask in the MU discussion thread. Idk anymore

 

[Wonderf]

I agree. We could still have a poll on the thread so we could get more opinions on which character has the overall advantage, but the actual thread discussion would be focused on interactions.
Is it even legal to just make another thread on another character's board about MU discussion? I feel like they could get mad at us and tell us to ask in the MU discussion thread. Idk anymore

I think they would probably get mad and it would just be better to go on the MU thread. Also I like the Idea of a poll so maybe when we discuss a MU we could make a link to a straw poll or something.

imo we should focus very much on mu ratios and instead talk about the interactions
for example,
It is far more inromative to say things like "Fox can get an Up smash off a SH n/d-air so try to respect his sh at high percents" than "Villager loses to Fox 40:60"

I've done the ratio only post before, and I have lots of regrets about that post.

 

[AnchorTea]

Lmao Ryu is not gonna have fun with Villager.

 

[SoniCraft]

Lmao Ryu is not gonna have fun with Villager.

As soon as I noticed he gets hit by full height short hop fairs and bairs I knew we had a good MU heading our way.

 

[Antonykun]

As soon as I noticed he gets hit by full height short hop fairs and bairs I knew we had a good MU heading our way.

word of warning he can FADC through the Slingshot not like he can always do it but be careful

 

[Mark_got_woodz?]

Dark times for Ryu mains

 

[Mtn64]

Killing Ryus extremely early on dreamland 64.
Also Roy is gonna have a problem offstage. ...So is Lucas actually, it's pretty easy to gimp him.
This seems like 3 pretty nice MUs for Villy!

 

[SoniCraft]

Honestly Roy will probably be the hardest. No projectiles to pocket, and insanely good kill moves. True combos. I mean his sword's shorter than Marth's, so we should have an easy time playing keep away. I just think he'll be the hardest of the three.

 

[MJG]

I played against Mekos' Lucas recently. He started using his Snake (Zair) more as the matches progressed and I realized that lloid ends up being a solid solution to the snake. Lucas' isn't nearly as threatening as Ness. That's all I have on the MU for now.

 

[AnchorTea]

Can we please talk about Rosa again?

I don't get why people say that Villager is easily able to go against Rosalina. She has that down B which limits most of our options, and you cannot get too close to her with Luma out, even if Luma is gone.

It's 40/60. I wonder why people say it's 45/55.

 

[MillionGoldMan]

Can we please talk about Rosa again?

I don't get why people say that Villager is easily able to go against Rosalina. She has that down B which limits most of our options, and you cannot get too close to her with Luma out, even if Luma is gone.

It's 40/60. I wonder why people say it's 45/55.

Yeah, I have bad MU's against R&L. The only thing that i can normally do is bait a Down-B and use turnips, and not even that is too good.

 

[SoniCraft]

Alright so I went 1-2 at the first tournament I've been to in a while and I'm realizing I still have lots of work to do(lost to two sponsored players :< ).

First up! How do you get back on stage from the ledge against Wario? That neutral b beats every get up option. and ledge hopping with fair or uair is kinda risky.

Second! I'm finally realizing how annoying Yoshi is! :O I ate waaay too many dairs. and his air speed is sooo good. So are his aeirals. And dash attack. And kinda everything. Any weaknesses I should be exploiting?

At least I beat an okay Sheik. Advice I can give on that MU is:
1. Don't go for gimps, it's useless. Just grow a tree and do your best from there. Actually, just grow a tree whenever you can. Axe is pretty helpful.
2. Watch out for the up b kill, it's very sneaky.
3. Now that we have dthrow combos, USE THEM WHEN YOU CAN! Sheik is a great weight and fall speed for two fairs after a down throw.
4. When(If) you get the stock lead, RUN! Sheik has to approach, and this only makes your job easier.

 

[Mtn64]

Can we please talk about Rosa again?

I don't get why people say that Villager is easily able to go against Rosalina. She has that down B which limits most of our options, and you cannot get too close to her with Luma out, even if Luma is gone.

It's 40/60. I wonder why people say it's 45/55.

Honestly I feel its 35/65 in Rosas Favor.
Why people think its 45/55 is beyond me though.
Would switch over to a pocket any day in this MU, I feel like this matchup is a lost cause for villy .-.

 

[Ryan.]

Not sure if this is the right thread to ask this but what are some good things to do with Villager against King De De De?

 

[Mtn64]

Not sure if this is the right thread to ask this but what are some good things to do with Villager against King De De De?

The King Dedede did a matchup thread on the Villager him/herself already.
You can find their opinions as well as what Volya, Darklink, Sonsa, and I had posted on that thread here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/read...h-mario-6-19-6-23.395045/page-4#post-19368194
It starts near the top.

 

[Tusca]

At least I beat an okay Sheik. Advice I can give on that MU is:
1. Don't go for gimps, it's useless. Just grow a tree and do your best from there. Actually, just grow a tree whenever you can. Axe is pretty helpful.
2. Watch out for the up b kill, it's very sneaky.
3. Now that we have dthrow combos, USE THEM WHEN YOU CAN! Sheik is a great weight and fall speed for two fairs after a down throw.
4. When(If) you get the stock lead, RUN! Sheik has to approach, and this only makes your job easier.

I don't agree with point 3.
Indeed the dthrow has been buffed, but the grab is still not very viable, this is especially true with fast characters, and Sheik is a valid example

 

[SoniCraft]

I don't agree with point 3.
Indeed the dthrow has been buffed, but the grab is still not very viable, this is especially true with fast characters, and Sheik is a valid example

Well that's why I said "when you can". I know it's still hard to get a grab, but if you do happen to get one, use those combos.

 

[TriTails]

I have been wondering for quite a time now, but I wonder what Villager mains think of Luigi.

But from what I have seen on the first page... I guess Luigi is a joke to Villager (Some of us actually don't think so. One of them actually think we beat Villager, but I'm not seeing it).

Luigi vs Villager is confusing as hell.

 

[Antonykun]

I have been wondering for quite a time now, but I wonder what Villager mains think of Luigi.

But from what I have seen on the first page... I guess Luigi is a joke to Villager (Some of us actually don't think so. One of them actually think we beat Villager, but I'm not seeing it).

Luigi vs Villager is confusing as hell.

Im on my phone so I can't go on deep detail but I think Villager wins the MU but it is not an easy MU. Villager has the tools to keep out Luigi and to edgeguard him but Luigi has the tools to put a careless Villager in a position where she can get a ton of damage on her

 

[SoniCraft]

Personally I don't agree with the 65:35 ratio on the front page, as anybody who can combo us literally to death must have a better than 35% chance of winning. However, I think the main problem comes with Luigi's speed. He has bad aerial mobility and ground mobility, so he can't really break through villager's walls and camps like falcon or yoshi can. Luigi also doesn't camp that well, so he can't outcamp villager like sheik or megaman. Luigi's recovery can also be exploited fairly easily by villager. I definitely see how it's in our favor, but Luigi is certainly not hopeless. He probably just has to play very differently compared to his other MUs(as most characters do really).